Author Topic: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult  (Read 713 times)

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Offline Minnesotan

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The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« on: May 06, 2016, 03:31:40 PM »
From here:

Quote
A Christian group that advocates for early, “fruitful” marriage is promoting a retreat in Wichita this fall designed to bring together families who are “actively, deliberately seeking a marriage for one or more of their children.”

The “Get Them Married” retreat, originally planned for Nov. 3-6 at Camp Hiawatha in Wichita, is still a goal for Vaughn Ohlman, who runs the Let Them Marry ministry and website.

But an outcry from critics Thursday prompted Camp Hiawatha officials to refuse the group’s request to rent the venue.

“We just today got news that we’re not going to be able to use the retreat center,” said Laura Ohlman, Vaughn Ohlman’s daughter-in-law, who lives in Wichita and was helping organize and promote the event.

“We’re unsure at this point whether it’s going to happen. … But it’s still a goal. We thought it would be a fun thing, and we’d like to do it.”

A cursory overview of this group's teaching shows that they are in favor of forced marriage of minors. At least they don't go so far as to promote polygamy as well, although there are other groups out there that do claim a "Biblical" basis for it.
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Online Eruvande

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2016, 03:38:43 PM »
woah. That's pretty alarming, but not too surprising to me, it's very much the mindset we escaped from some years ago now. Quiverfull and talking about promoting courtship in a very patriarchal, controlling way. Makes me shudder to think of it now.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2016, 04:10:05 PM »
Arranged marriages are extremely nasty, and probably illegal, but it isn't child-trafficking.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2016, 04:19:14 PM »
Arranged marriages are extremely nasty, and probably illegal...

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2016, 04:28:46 PM »
Arranged marriages are extremely nasty, and probably illegal,
Why?
Quote
8 Unknown things about an Indian Christian Wedding

ALL WOMEN ARE NOT IN FROCKS

If it’s a Christian wedding most people assume that all women are going to be in gowns, frocks and skirts. This is not entirely true. Most women opt for designer sarees and lenghas for the wedding and reception.

ARRANGED MARRIAGES ARE OUR THING TOO!

I don’t know why most people assume that Christians only have love marriages! That’s the lamest thing I have heard. Arranged marriages in Christians are as common as in any other culture.

IT’S NOT ‘KISS THE BRIDE’
... just in case you thought that you will get to see a lip lock between every newly married Christian couple, then you are highly mistaken. Few do it, some choose to kiss on the cheek and MANY DON’T. So everytime you attend a Christian wedding, don’t expect that you will get to go all dreamy and say “aww” because a couple is kissing at the altar.

http://digtoknow.com/just-for-a-read/unknown-things-indian-christian-wedding/

I have no reason to think it doesn't happen in the Netherlands among Indian Christians, as they have a presence there. http://parumalaseminary.com/
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 04:33:51 PM by rakovsky »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2016, 04:49:42 PM »

8 Unknown things about an Indian Christian Wedding

ALL WOMEN ARE NOT IN FROCKS

If it’s a Christian wedding most people assume that all women are going to be in gowns, frocks and skirts. This is not entirely true. Most women opt for designer sarees and lenghas for the wedding and reception.

If the Gif is to be believed, fact #2 is no Dravidians allowed. Or is that just Bollywood?

Also, Rakovsky, excellent find on this link.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 04:50:58 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2016, 05:28:56 PM »
This is the strain of Christianity that the Duggars belong to.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2016, 06:00:59 PM »
Horrid contrarian, as I am, please allow this: if you have daughters then one spends some time wondering/worring about the male she shall marry.
Civilization made it rather far until "romantic love" became normative, which was quite recent in history, Abelard & Heloise aside.
If, as a father, one knows a family well, and they have sons, the thought does cross the mind of parents.
Horrors!
Trust me, the joke around my parish comes up time and again when watching the little ones. So allow the question to be begged and without histrionics nor hysteria, please.
 ::)
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2016, 06:40:13 PM »
If a parent is wasting lots of time worrying about that, then they have too much time.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 06:40:28 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2016, 06:40:33 PM »
Arranged marriages are an Orthodox tradition



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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2016, 06:58:53 PM »
This is the strain of Christianity that the Duggars belong to.

Yup
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2016, 07:03:17 PM »
Horrid contrarian, as I am, please allow this: if you have daughters then one spends some time wondering/worring about the male she shall marry.
Civilization made it rather far until "romantic love" became normative, which was quite recent in history, Abelard & Heloise aside.
If, as a father, one knows a family well, and they have sons, the thought does cross the mind of parents.
Horrors!
Trust me, the joke around my parish comes up time and again when watching the little ones. So allow the question to be begged and without histrionics nor hysteria, please.
 ::)

As a mother to three daughters, I get that. However there are ways to go about things that don't have heavy pressure overtones involving guilt and psychological coercion. Just my thoughts.
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2016, 08:47:37 PM »
Horrid contrarian, as I am, please allow this: if you have daughters then one spends some time wondering/worring about the male she shall marry.
Civilization made it rather far until "romantic love" became normative, which was quite recent in history, Abelard & Heloise aside.
If, as a father, one knows a family well, and they have sons, the thought does cross the mind of parents.
Horrors!
Trust me, the joke around my parish comes up time and again when watching the little ones. So allow the question to be begged and without histrionics nor hysteria, please.
 ::)

As a mother to three daughters, I get that. However there are ways to go about things that don't have heavy pressure overtones involving guilt and psychological coercion. Just my thoughts.

Exactly.

I don't think there's anything wrong with parents being able to set up a courtship type thing for their children, but it needs to be once the kids are of an age to be able to meaningfully consent to or veto it. Forcing them into a marriage the moment they turn 18 if not earlier is just asking for trouble.

This isn't about romanticism, it's about what's best for a still developing brain.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2016, 09:09:26 PM »
This makes me so jealous of Mor's life.


« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 09:09:48 PM by TheTrisagion »
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2016, 09:15:53 PM »
This makes me so jealous of Mor's life.



I remember seeing a comedian on TV who a who sang in an Indian accent, "If you like it, Daddy should've arranged a marriage with it, if you like it Daddy should've arranged a marriage with it".
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2016, 09:19:05 PM »
Not that these people aren't legit crazy, but it seems perhaps that news reports are not entirely accurate in their reporting of the group.

Quote
Note: Contrary to vicious internet rumors we do not support or in any way condone child sexual activity of any sort, child marriage, or any other illegal activity. Nor do we support or condone forced marriages. We believe that parents should NOT seek a spouse for a child where that child has not actively sought for the parents to do so.

http://letthemmarry.org/about/
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 09:19:18 PM by TheTrisagion »
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2016, 09:25:09 PM »
Not that these people aren't legit crazy, but it seems perhaps that news reports are not entirely accurate in their reporting of the group.

Quote
Note: Contrary to vicious internet rumors we do not support or in any way condone child sexual activity of any sort, child marriage, or any other illegal activity. Nor do we support or condone forced marriages. We believe that parents should NOT seek a spouse for a child where that child has not actively sought for the parents to do so.

http://letthemmarry.org/about/

That disclaimer does seem to contradict some of the statements they've posted on their site in the past, so it's unclear what they actually believe. Oftentimes groups like this (understandably) aren't completely up-front about their beliefs or practices to the public.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2016, 09:37:55 PM »
This makes me so jealous of Mor's life.



I wish this was my life...
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2016, 09:42:45 PM »
Don't ruin the allure for me. I picture you surrounded by this type situation at all times. Although, in my mind, you are resisting the temptation and are in prayer doing prostrations.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2016, 09:45:52 PM »
Don't ruin the allure for me. I picture you surrounded by this type situation at all times. Although, in my mind, you are resisting the temptation and are in prayer doing prostrations.

Truth.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2016, 09:56:46 PM »
If a parent is wasting lots of time worrying about that, then they have too much time.

Sure, you're right.
Parents have way to much time on their hands, especially if their children are under the age of, say, 50.
<Sarcasm mode>: off.

And how old are yours? Girls first.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 10:00:39 PM by LenInSebastopol »
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2016, 09:57:59 PM »
Horrid contrarian, as I am, please allow this: if you have daughters then one spends some time wondering/worring about the male she shall marry.
Civilization made it rather far until "romantic love" became normative, which was quite recent in history, Abelard & Heloise aside.
If, as a father, one knows a family well, and they have sons, the thought does cross the mind of parents.
Horrors!
Trust me, the joke around my parish comes up time and again when watching the little ones. So allow the question to be begged and without histrionics nor hysteria, please.
 ::)

As a mother to three daughters, I get that. However there are ways to go about things that don't have heavy pressure overtones involving guilt and psychological coercion. Just my thoughts.

And those way, dear & blessed Mother, are a mystery to men.
Though I have seen it in action and results.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2016, 03:54:01 AM »
Not that these people aren't legit crazy, but it seems perhaps that news reports are not entirely accurate in their reporting of the group.

Quote
Note: Contrary to vicious internet rumors we do not support or in any way condone child sexual activity of any sort, child marriage, or any other illegal activity. Nor do we support or condone forced marriages. We believe that parents should NOT seek a spouse for a child where that child has not actively sought for the parents to do so.

http://letthemmarry.org/about/

That disclaimer does seem to contradict some of the statements they've posted on their site in the past, so it's unclear what they actually believe. Oftentimes groups like this (understandably) aren't completely up-front about their beliefs or practices to the public.

Yeah, like their FAQ page as of Jan. 10 (found on the Way Back Machine):

"B) Courtship denies the authority of the father over the marriage of their virgin children. While they often give a veto to the parents of the woman, they specifically deny the authority of the father of the groom or the bride to choose a spouse for their children.

We believe that Scripture teaches quite clearly that the father does have the power to choose a spouse for their virgin child; and we see this in several Scriptural examples."

"C) Courtship advocates generally deny the continuing authority of the father over the married son.

We believe, along with the Reformers and the Church historical, that the jurisdiction of the family is the primordial and fundamental jurisdiction, and it is not interrupted by the marriage of a son. (A daughter, on the other hand, comes under the jurisdiction of her new husband)"

"What if the person objects to the prospective spouse? Is there an opportunity to veto?....

Considering it is their parents who would be finding them a spouse, what would be their basis for objecting? Looks? How much money they have? Their hobbies or interests? Maybe their personality? All of these things can change and likely will change over the course of a marriage. Even a person’s beliefs may change over time. The Bible says, “Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord.” (Proverbs 18:22), and “Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.” (Hebrews 13:4). Having a wife is good thing, and the Bible does not quibble about only certain women being good as wives for certain men."

"Doesn’t a legitimate marriage require the consent of both the people marrying? Scripture speaks of the father of the son “taking a wife” for his son, and the father of the bride “giving” her to her husband (Jeremiah 29: 6; Judges 21: 7; Ezra 9:12; Nehemiah 10: 30; 1 Corinthians 7:36-38). It gives example after example of young women being given to young men, without the young woman even being consulted, and often, in some of the most Godly marriages in Scripture, the young man is not consulted.

Comparing what we see in Scripture with various commentaries as well as the culture of our world, however, we see a very interesting linguistic clash over the word “consent”. First of all, Scripture never, ever mentions the idea of “consent” in regard to marriage. "

These people should probably be arrested.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2016, 06:12:28 AM »
When you combine this with their doctrine of 'headship'. I.e you are sinning if you pull yourself out from under the umbrella of your father's protection by disobedience of ANY sort, these kids go along with whatever the father wants because there are repercussions to their spiritual health and salvation if they don't.


That's blackmail
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2016, 06:29:49 AM »
This is gross.
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2016, 06:31:01 AM »


Mor:  Seminary?

Ex-fiancée:  Forget it.
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2016, 06:42:29 AM »
When you combine this with their doctrine of 'headship'. I.e you are sinning if you pull yourself out from under the umbrella of your father's protection by disobedience of ANY sort, these kids go along with whatever the father wants because there are repercussions to their spiritual health and salvation if they don't.


That's blackmail

Well precisely. It's all sugar coated with father daughter balls and daughters giving their father's their hearts until marriage and so on, but there is such a dark side to it all.
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2016, 07:50:28 AM »
Guess their Bibles miss the bit about a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving to his wife.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2016, 08:12:30 AM »
It's more accurate to say that the Duggars belong to a subset of the Quiverfull movement that is...scarier...than the nebulous Quiverfull movement is.  The basic idea, base on a book titled The Way Home (which I've read), is that unrestrained Christian baby making + homeschooling = a Christian retaking of our nation and a rescuing of our society from its slide into unchristian and antichristian...stuff.  It's been a while since I read it.  The book was simply trying to question the social pressure to have a "meaningful" career (as opposed to motherhood) that is placed on women in America as well as the apparent trend of American women to run from motherhood as fast and hard and soon as possible.  Somehow her contemporaries heard in that something like marching orders to go forth and militantly have babies for Christ, or something.  I'm sure there are a large number of other factors involved, but this book seems to have ignited and/or fueled the movement.  And then it ran off screaming into the woods in random directions.   ::)
The book, however, makes good points worth considering (in my opinion), if one can keep oneself from legalism. 

OP: how does Isaiah 4:1 even mean what the trash romance site says it means??  I just for the life of me can only see one interpretation there.  But maybe I'm reading my own bias into it.  Although, If you balance it with the New Testament re-emphasis of one man, one woman...it's not my bias.  I certainly think the issue isn't courtship or marrying early in adulthood (ie: 18-20), but how considerate the parents are of the children.  Courtship, headship, young marriage, even arranged marriages aren't what's bad, it's the spirit in which they're done and the general atmosphere of American society.  America isn't great at preparing children to be fully personally responsible as soon as they turn 18; there's not gradual "bringing along" there.  Our collective mindset is that an 18 year old is still a child, but they aren't in any sense except conditioning.  And then you have these groups going to the other extreme.  Young adults are still treated as children in these movements in that it is assumed they aren't capable of autonomy without running into heaps of trouble.  It's the same message, different milieu.

Just my personal opinion, though, not much more.   :)

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2016, 09:26:25 AM »
It's more accurate to say that the Duggars belong to a subset of the Quiverfull movement that is...scarier...than the nebulous Quiverfull movement is.  The basic idea, base on a book titled The Way Home (which I've read), is that unrestrained Christian baby making + homeschooling = a Christian retaking of our nation and a rescuing of our society from its slide into unchristian and antichristian...stuff.  It's been a while since I read it.  The book was simply trying to question the social pressure to have a "meaningful" career (as opposed to motherhood) that is placed on women in America as well as the apparent trend of American women to run from motherhood as fast and hard and soon as possible.  Somehow her contemporaries heard in that something like marching orders to go forth and militantly have babies for Christ, or something.  I'm sure there are a large number of other factors involved, but this book seems to have ignited and/or fueled the movement.  And then it ran off screaming into the woods in random directions.   ::)
The book, however, makes good points worth considering (in my opinion), if one can keep oneself from legalism. 

OP: how does Isaiah 4:1 even mean what the trash romance site says it means??  I just for the life of me can only see one interpretation there.  But maybe I'm reading my own bias into it.  Although, If you balance it with the New Testament re-emphasis of one man, one woman...it's not my bias.  I certainly think the issue isn't courtship or marrying early in adulthood (ie: 18-20), but how considerate the parents are of the children.  Courtship, headship, young marriage, even arranged marriages aren't what's bad, it's the spirit in which they're done and the general atmosphere of American society.  America isn't great at preparing children to be fully personally responsible as soon as they turn 18; there's not gradual "bringing along" there.  Our collective mindset is that an 18 year old is still a child, but they aren't in any sense except conditioning.  And then you have these groups going to the other extreme.  Young adults are still treated as children in these movements in that it is assumed they aren't capable of autonomy without running into heaps of trouble.  It's the same message, different milieu.

Just my personal opinion, though, not much more.   :)

It's not just The Way Home, it's things like Vision Forum too, though that is now defunct after further shenanigans by the leader of the movement. It has a cumulative effect, so that one piece seems innocuous, but taken as part of the bigger picture, it is really quite sinister. I know when our days of being Quiverful ended because of my health, there was a horrible conflict of conviction, because it was my husband's decision. You put a book like Me, Obey Him? into that mix, for example, and you have a recipe for enormous guilt and stress.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2016, 12:06:11 PM »
This is gross.

That is true.
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2016, 12:54:51 PM »
Guess their Bibles miss the bit about a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving to his wife.

To be fair, just about everyone in human history has lived something other than those words until fairly recently. 
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2016, 01:31:59 PM »
Guess their Bibles miss the bit about a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving to his wife.

To be fair, just about everyone in human history has lived something other than those words until fairly recently.
It depends on how you consider, "leaving". If leaving = living more than a mile away, then no. If leaving = living in a neighboring or attached building/hut, sure.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 01:32:06 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2016, 01:32:15 PM »
Guess their Bibles miss the bit about a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving to his wife.

To be fair, just about everyone in human history has lived something other than those words until fairly recently.

The fact that those words were put down at a time when a son was expected to raise his family in the ancestral home (or tent) can only mean that the leavetaking has to do with the parents' authority, not their domicile. :)
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2016, 01:51:34 PM »
From here:

Quote
A Christian group that advocates for early, “fruitful” marriage is promoting a retreat in Wichita this fall designed to bring together families who are “actively, deliberately seeking a marriage for one or more of their children.”

The “Get Them Married” retreat, originally planned for Nov. 3-6 at Camp Hiawatha in Wichita, is still a goal for Vaughn Ohlman, who runs the Let Them Marry ministry and website.

But an outcry from critics Thursday prompted Camp Hiawatha officials to refuse the group’s request to rent the venue.

“We just today got news that we’re not going to be able to use the retreat center,” said Laura Ohlman, Vaughn Ohlman’s daughter-in-law, who lives in Wichita and was helping organize and promote the event.

“We’re unsure at this point whether it’s going to happen. … But it’s still a goal. We thought it would be a fun thing, and we’d like to do it.”

A cursory overview of this group's teaching shows that they are in favor of forced marriage of minors. At least they don't go so far as to promote polygamy as well, although there are other groups out there that do claim a "Biblical" basis for it.
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« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 01:52:23 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2016, 01:55:11 PM »
Guess their Bibles miss the bit about a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving to his wife.

To be fair, just about everyone in human history has lived something other than those words until fairly recently.

The fact that those words were put down at a time when a son was expected to raise his family in the ancestral home (or tent) can only mean that the leavetaking has to do with the parents' authority, not their domicile. :)

I'm not defending the people in question, but even this interpretation doesn't really square with what we know.  "Parents' authority" wasn't really taken leave of in the way we are accustomed to in the modern West, even if it also didn't mean that great-grandfather got to marry off his eight year old great-granddaughter to whomever. 
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2016, 02:20:03 PM »
It's not just The Way Home, it's things like Vision Forum too, though that is now defunct after further shenanigans by the leader of the movement. It has a cumulative effect, so that one piece seems innocuous, but taken as part of the bigger picture, it is really quite sinister. I know when our days of being Quiverful ended because of my health, there was a horrible conflict of conviction, because it was my husband's decision. You put a book like Me, Obey Him? into that mix, for example, and you have a recipe for enormous guilt and stress.

No, I know it's not just the one source; she predated those others by over a decade, though.  Apparently she has been dubbed by some as the progenitor of the movement, but none of how it all developed was what she was trying to accomplish in writing her book.  Classic snowball effect.  She wrote a preface to the 2010 edition saying as much.  I'm not defending the larger movement at all.

I'm so very sorry you've experienced stress and guilt in this area of life, and health issues to boot.   :(  I hope you are finding peace and healing. 

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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2016, 04:02:52 PM »
It's not just The Way Home, it's things like Vision Forum too, though that is now defunct after further shenanigans by the leader of the movement. It has a cumulative effect, so that one piece seems innocuous, but taken as part of the bigger picture, it is really quite sinister. I know when our days of being Quiverful ended because of my health, there was a horrible conflict of conviction, because it was my husband's decision. You put a book like Me, Obey Him? into that mix, for example, and you have a recipe for enormous guilt and stress.

No, I know it's not just the one source; she predated those others by over a decade, though.  Apparently she has been dubbed by some as the progenitor of the movement, but none of how it all developed was what she was trying to accomplish in writing her book.  Classic snowball effect.  She wrote a preface to the 2010 edition saying as much.  I'm not defending the larger movement at all.

I'm so very sorry you've experienced stress and guilt in this area of life, and health issues to boot.   :(  I hope you are finding peace and healing.

True that. I'm ok, pretty much recovered from pregnancy related disabilities now. Being constantly pregnant for nigh on seven whole years leaves a mark or two :)
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Re: The "Christian" child-trafficking cult
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2016, 08:10:37 PM »
Guess their Bibles miss the bit about a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving to his wife.

To be fair, just about everyone in human history has lived something other than those words until fairly recently.

The fact that those words were put down at a time when a son was expected to raise his family in the ancestral home (or tent) can only mean that the leavetaking has to do with the parents' authority, not their domicile. :)

I'm not defending the people in question, but even this interpretation doesn't really square with what we know.  "Parents' authority" wasn't really taken leave of in the way we are accustomed to in the modern West, even if it also didn't mean that great-grandfather got to marry off his eight year old great-granddaughter to whomever.
This is a good point. My sister-in-law is Chinese and in her culture, the husband's mother pretty much moves in and runs the house. She was quite happy to hear my mom did not plan on moving in with them. Her mother, on the other hand, does so for several months at a time. It has taken some adjustment on the part of my brother, but he has gotten used to it. We oftentimes just assume the world has always worked the way it does in the west and impress our views on the Bible accordingly, much like this poor deluded group has done.
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