OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 04:05:10 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?  (Read 15617 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #90 on: May 27, 2007, 11:00:46 PM »

Quote
Archbishop Job gave a very rousing oratory today after the Kneeling Vespers. He feels that the situation is worse than its ever been, and that it is time for us (the lay people) to take a stand and start to correct the problem. He asks that we do so by Praying for him, giving him strength, and helping to be supportive of his efforts. I believe that when the next Midwest Council Meeting comes up in October there will be alot of questions and some tough stances taken against the National Church on this issue. However, irregardless of all this, I ask everyone to pray for Archbishop Job that the Lord will help him to reveal the correct path on this issue.


-Nick

Will do. Looks like this all might be coming to a head within the next 6 months. I hope Archbishop Job has the strength to get through this one bad mess the OCA is currently in. He probably feels that most of the weight is on his shoulders because he's been one of the few who have been outspoken about what's going on. We really need to support him and let him know that everyone is behind him. Hope the OCA can survive this.
Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
Jonas Suender
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 111


« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2007, 07:07:36 AM »

I know at my parish we talk about. When it’s just a few of us guys hanging out after church or at our men’s breakfast, our priest really speaks his mind about the scandal and how corrupt some of the hierarchy is. He's pretty close to Archbishop Job, so we constantly hear about what’s happening behind the scenes and it isn't pretty.

So, what will happen if the situation in the OCA isn't resolved this October?  Will H.G. Job join the Antiochians? 
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2007, 12:55:26 PM »

So, what will happen if the situation in the OCA isn't resolved this October?  Will H.G. Job join the Antiochians? 

He could always make an appeal to the Oecumenical Throne and go under the Russian Exarch in Paris...we'll unify the Church in this country one way or another Grin
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2007, 12:59:38 PM »

Quote
So, what will happen if the situation in the OCA isn't resolved this October?  Will H.G. Job join the Antiochians?

Yes, if things get that bad it's a real possibility. I'm sure Archbishop Job would have no problem taking his diocese into the Antiochian Archdiocese if he felt he needed to.
Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #94 on: May 29, 2007, 01:18:07 AM »

Is there any way for OCA bishops to suspend or depose the Metr?

I'm not actually advocating this; just interested in seeing whether or not it's possible...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 01:18:37 AM by DavidBryan » Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #95 on: May 29, 2007, 01:21:17 AM »

Is there any way for OCA bishops to suspend or depose the Metr?

I'm not actually advocating this; just interested in seeing whether or not it's possible...

Unless they have fundamentally altered the ecclesiology of the Church any synod can depose any Bishiop, even the presiding Bishop, though it's generally not very easy. But look at Jerusalem, they just pulled it off for strictly political reasons, so I guess it can't be too hard.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,682


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #96 on: May 29, 2007, 02:21:58 AM »

Is there any way for OCA bishops to suspend or depose the Metr?

I'm not actually advocating this; just interested in seeing whether or not it's possible...

How do we know that what we read at ocanews.org is totally accurate?  Much of the site appears very agenda-driven and not very objective at times.
Logged
cholmes
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 146



« Reply #97 on: May 30, 2007, 05:50:16 PM »

How do we know that what we read at ocanews.org is totally accurate?  Much of the site appears very agenda-driven and not very objective at times.

Of course there is an agenda, but they (Mark Stokoe specifically) seem to be one of the few parties interested in disseminating as much information as possible.  His words have power partly because Syosset has been so secretive about their actions and motives.
Logged

Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #98 on: May 30, 2007, 09:35:17 PM »

Quote
So, what will happen if the situation in the OCA isn't resolved this October?  Will H.G. Job join the Antiochians?

Yes, if things get that bad it's a real possibility. I'm sure Archbishop Job would have no problem taking his diocese into the Antiochian Archdiocese if he felt he needed to.

Nacho,

Would it create a schism with the Antiochians and the OCA if that happened?Huh I'm like you, I would love to see our whole dioceses become Antiochian, but I wonder if that would cause a schisim in the church??  Does the Archbishop have the perogative to change jurisdictions?? It would be awesome if he did!

I am shaking my head in further disbelief at the Metropolitian. Does this guy not see how utterly corrupt everyone thinks he is?? What is he thinking??
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #99 on: May 30, 2007, 09:52:22 PM »

You all please have more patience. I think things are going to slowly work out for the OCA. But it will take some time. Gregg Nescott was reinstated back into the Metropolitan Council by Bishop Kirill. Bishop K. basically told Met. Herman that Gregg was elected to the council by his diocese and he sees no reason for the excuse Met. Herman gave for his dismissal. With Gregg back on the council it will be very hard for Met. Herman to continue to silence everyone.
While it would be wonderful to have all of you OCA folks in the Antiochian Archdiocese, remember we do not have a tomos of autocephaly. Self-rule is all we have at this point. When Met. Philip passes on it is very possible that Damascus will try to send someone from the patriarchate who will try to undue all we have accomplished.
What we want to see happen is for the OCA to continue to rid itself of corrupt leaders and their enablers. Then the OCA and the AOCA can continue to merge together under the tomos that the OCA was granted.
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,441


« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2007, 04:50:51 PM »

Update:

http://www.oca.org/News.asp?ID=1258&SID=19
Logged
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2007, 05:16:18 PM »

I hear a fiddle, and I see Rome burning.
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2007, 05:23:10 PM »

I hear a fiddle, and I see Rome burning.

You're not suggesting that Metropolitan Herman is like the Roman Emperor Nero, are you?  Huh
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2007, 06:47:55 PM »

Unbelievable
Logged
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 989


« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2007, 12:48:08 AM »

Quote
Yes, if things get that bad it's a real possibility. I'm sure Archbishop Job would have no problem taking his diocese into the Antiochian Archdiocese if he felt he needed to.

I find this comment difficult to understand as an Eastern Orthodox Christian.  In Orthodox ecclesiology, a bishop would not have this kind of power.  You are forgetting about "sobornost".  For such a move to happen, a sobor or church council would have to be called and the matter presented to the council. 
If Archbishop Job of the OCA wants to make a personal move himself, he always has that option, but you cannot assume he has the authority to take them members of the eparchy with him or the church property.
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2007, 01:50:53 AM »

I find this comment difficult to understand as an Eastern Orthodox Christian.  In Orthodox ecclesiology, a bishop would not have this kind of power.  You are forgetting about "sobornost".  For such a move to happen, a sobor or church council would have to be called and the matter presented to the council. 
If Archbishop Job of the OCA wants to make a personal move himself, he always has that option, but you cannot assume he has the authority to take them members of the eparchy with him or the church property.

He always has the right of an appeal to Constantinople, so if he could gain her support he could effect this move...but such support may not be forthcomming unless additional compromises and benifits to Constantinople could be secured.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2007, 02:01:21 AM »

^^ Sounds very "Papal - like" to say the least.... Roll Eyes 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 02:04:53 AM by Nacho » Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,682


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2007, 03:11:13 AM »

^^ Sounds very "Papal - like" to say the least.... Roll Eyes 
Not to mention the possibly uncanonical interference in the internal affairs of another church's jurisdiction.
Logged
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2007, 09:31:24 AM »

You're not suggesting that Metropolitan Herman is like the Roman Emperor Nero, are you?  Huh

I'm suggesting those at the top in my estimation have lost touch with reality, and the "city" is burning as a result.

^^ Sounds very "Papal - like" to say the least.... Roll Eyes

Here's the irony.  We know in reality people would ignore Constantinople as they usually do and that the Patriarchate has very little actual power or sway.  It is in reality by all accounts Metropolitan Herman who has been acting with what I would call near Papal power in his handling of this affair.  I'm actually not even sure the Pope could get away with some of these things.

The most interesting thing I've read was a statement that the ROCOR was poised to claim the Russian past of the OCA and the AOA was seizing its American future.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2007, 11:14:45 AM »

^^ Sounds very "Papal - like" to say the least.... Roll Eyes 

I didn't know "Papal - like" meant appealing to a synod as prescribed in the canons!  I've been living a lie all this time. Wink

Not to mention the possibly uncanonical interference in the internal affairs of another church's jurisdiction. 

Em, not quite.  If a bishop has issue with the president of his synod, he has the right to appeal to the Synod of Constantinople (I hope you don't think GiC was saying the EP himself - he would have mentioned it specifically if he did...) as per the canons and tradition of the Church.  And, theoretically, the decision reached by the Synod of Constantinople (which happens to include bishops from outside Turkey - US, Asia, Europe, etc - in case you didn't know) could only be over-turned by an Ecumenical Synod (highest governing body).

The decision would come from the Synod, not the EP, which is what makes it binding.  The EP himself cannot interfere with the internal operation of another diocese without the permission of that bishop.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 989


« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2007, 01:23:25 PM »

Quote
He always has the right of an appeal to Constantinople, so if he could gain her support he could effect this move...but such support may not be forthcomming unless additional compromises and benifits to Constantinople could be secured.

As I said previously, you are forgetting about "sobornost".  Archbishop Job as an individual has the right to move to the P of C and may or may not be accepted.  But you still seem to think he can take the eparchy, church property and members, clergy on the move.

That is not possible.  His move may or may not create a new "schism" with each priest, church member or parish making thier choices as we saw with Bishop Basil in England.
I doubt the faithful of the OCA want those types of problems. 
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #111 on: June 14, 2007, 02:23:18 PM »

Property issues would have to be fough state by state at a parish level. In most state who got the property would probably depend how the local courts interpreted the canon law (yes, the secular courts do often consider canon law in these cases, just look at the decisions in the recent cases against the Greek Archdioceses). Though in some states it would be up to the individual parish.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2007, 03:18:36 PM »

Quote
Em, not quite.  If a bishop has issue with the president of his synod, he has the right to appeal to the Synod of Constantinople (I hope you don't think GiC was saying the EP himself - he would have mentioned it specifically if he did...) as per the canons and tradition of the Church.  And, theoretically, the decision reached by the Synod of Constantinople (which happens to include bishops from outside Turkey - US, Asia, Europe, etc - in case you didn't know) could only be over-turned by an Ecumenical Synod (highest governing body).

The decision would come from the Synod, not the EP, which is what makes it binding.  The EP himself cannot interfere with the internal operation of another diocese without the permission of that bishop.

Cleveland, I agree with your assesment.
Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2007, 03:42:30 PM »

Cleveland, I agree with your assesment.

Thank you.  I suppose there is a lot unsaid about the process, which is why people have issue with the mere statement "appeal to Constantinople."  Often, C'nople will initially reject an appeal if the bishop or priest or layman in question has not exhausted other options (I've heard of this happening when I spoke with a few of the deacons while over there).

And, of course, there are people's natural reactions to mentioning Constantinople or the EP here on OC.net, considering certain posters bring them up more often than others and frequently just to tick people off. Many of the "perogatives" of the EP rest with the Patriarchal Synod (of which he is president) and not with the man or title.

Eh, I don't know if the EP would interfere with the goings-on in the OCA anyway - if a man like Archbishop JOB went to him, he may very well be directed to appeal first to Moscow, since the EP considers the OCA a diocese of that Patriarchate.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #114 on: June 14, 2007, 03:51:47 PM »

The most interesting thing I've read was a statement that the ROCOR was poised to claim the Russian past of the OCA and the AOA was seizing its American future. 

Would this be in the best interests of Orthodoxy in this country?  Maybe yes - it would eliminate multiple overlaps of jurisdiction, it would set many of the parishes within a very solid administrative structure (the AOA), and would give the Antiochians the seminary they never had.  Yes, it would mean losing the "golden egg" of Autocephaly, but that's not a permanent condition.  The process would also allow for either a consolidation of over-parish-ed areas (no need to have 2 or 3 parishes of 40-60 families in an area when you could have 1-2 of 60-120 - you get the idea).  It would give the currently well-trained and eager Antiochian priests who have no parishes (at the moment the Antiochians are graduating more seminarians from Vlad's, Tikhon's and HC than they have parishes to employ them in) places to go. 

The only people unaccounted for would be the Romanians and Albanians (is there one more?) who were in the OCA - but they could enter a similar arrangement as the Carpatho-Rus with the EP or Antioch.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #115 on: June 14, 2007, 04:11:55 PM »

Having a surplus of priests is an ideal situation because hopefully the Antiochians will send these priests to large parishes as assistants so they can get some hands on pastoral experience under the mentorship of an older priest before they are sent to a parish of their own.

Logged
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #116 on: June 14, 2007, 04:41:07 PM »

But you still seem to think he can take the eparchy, church property and members, clergy on the move.
Most parishes in the OCA are owned in full by the parish, a left over from the days when Bishops sent by Moscow during the communist era were selling off church property in this country. Any Diocese Bishop of the OCA has the power to release any clergy and parishes under his authority to whomever he wishes. There would be no recourse by the central administration of the OCA because in reality Syossot only owns the property of the St. Tikhon's, St. Vladimir's and the headquarters building.
Logged

Joseph
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #117 on: June 14, 2007, 08:35:07 PM »

What if Archbishop Job released his priests and parishes to go into a different jurisdiction. Would that be legal since he wouldn't be splitting and taking clergy and churches with him?? If a priest and a particular parish wanted to switch jurisdictions could they get the blessing of the bishop to do such a thing??
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #118 on: June 20, 2007, 05:34:28 PM »

Having a surplus of priests is an ideal situation because hopefully the Antiochians will send these priests to large parishes as assistants so they can get some hands on pastoral experience under the mentorship of an older priest before they are sent to a parish of their own. 

Um, they're surplus priests because none of the large parishes have stepped forward to take on extra priests.  I'd love for them to do that, but it takes foresight, clarity of vision, firm guidance in direction - and a vote of a General Assembly to add a salary to the parish budget.  Even if they have the first 3, most don't do the last 1.

I wish the Archdioceses could send the priests (of course, I also believe that the priests should not get paid by the parish.... but I digress) without waiting for the parishes to wake up.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #119 on: June 20, 2007, 06:26:14 PM »

Um, they're surplus priests because none of the large parishes have stepped forward to take on extra priests.  I'd love for them to do that, but it takes foresight, clarity of vision, firm guidance in direction - and a vote of a General Assembly to add a salary to the parish budget.  Even if they have the first 3, most don't do the last 1.

I wish the Archdioceses could send the priests (of course, I also believe that the priests should not get paid by the parish.... but I digress) without waiting for the parishes to wake up.

It would make it a very different dynamic if the priest was paid by the archdiocese if that is what you are suggesting?
I tend to agree with you on that one...when I was a member of the parish council at the ethnic parish I tried to use the archdiocese guidebook for salary and benefits, shame and whatever other psychological tool I could to get the priest a decent salary and family health benefits. At the new parish I am at the priest is compensated adequately. It is hit or miss depending on what parish a priest is assigned and that can lead to other problems which I won't get into here.
Logged
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #120 on: June 20, 2007, 06:51:49 PM »

no one has still answered my question...........
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,441


« Reply #121 on: June 20, 2007, 07:23:22 PM »

no one has still answered my question...........

Maybe since it is hypothetical no one here knows?
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #122 on: June 21, 2007, 10:39:12 AM »

What if Archbishop Job released his priests and parishes to go into a different jurisdiction. Would that be legal since he wouldn't be splitting and taking clergy and churches with him?? If a priest and a particular parish wanted to switch jurisdictions could they get the blessing of the bishop to do such a thing?? 

Hmmm.  I would guess that the movement of parishes would actually require Synodal approval, as those matters which affect more than the diocese normally are out of the hands of the local bishop.  Since the movement of a parish to another jurisdiction definitely affects the Church at large (less voters for the Met and Metropolitan council, less stewardship going to the National Church, etc.), I figure that both of your questions have the same answer: no, not without synodal approval.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #123 on: June 21, 2007, 10:57:36 AM »

The split in Sourozh recently is probably the best example of how this was handled.
Logged
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #124 on: June 24, 2007, 04:35:46 AM »

Quote
he split in Sourozh recently is probably the best example of how this was handled.

A split in Orthodoxy? No, I can't believe it! We aren't like the protestants.
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #125 on: June 29, 2007, 01:45:47 AM »

Quote
A split in Orthodoxy? No, I can't believe it! We aren't like the protestants.

I'm hoping you meant this tongue in cheek? I very much doubt that someone would be able to find a century, including the first century, where Christianity didn't fracture at least a dozen times. And it's not just a case of "heretics leaving the fold," since there are clearly splits between peoples that are/were both Orthodox or valid in some fashion; for example, the splits over the 3rd and 4th Ecumenical Councils, or the Catholic/Orthodox split.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 01:46:09 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #126 on: July 02, 2007, 01:06:26 AM »

I'm hoping you meant this tongue in cheek? I very much doubt that someone would be able to find a century, including the first century, where Christianity didn't fracture at least a dozen times. And it's not just a case of "heretics leaving the fold," since there are clearly splits between peoples that are/were both Orthodox or valid in some fashion; for example, the splits over the 3rd and 4th Ecumenical Councils, or the Catholic/Orthodox split.


I took his reply as being tongue-in-cheek; I laughed when I read it.
Logged
Jonas Suender
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 111


« Reply #127 on: July 02, 2007, 06:18:55 AM »

Personally, I don't think the current crisis will come to schism.  Part of that, yes, is that I actually believe in the mission of the OCA.  Part of that, however, is the situation itself.  It's a finacial crisis, due to bad management at the top.  So, that management will eventually be replaced -- willingly or unwillingly-- and new managment will take over.  And the new managment will be pro-reform.  That is, if Syosset wants to receive money again from the rank and file.
Logged
soulsanchor
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #128 on: July 03, 2007, 03:28:56 PM »

St. John 12:4-6 ...   Jesus knew that Judas Iscariot was taking from the money box. Judas had been doing that for a long time. That is what thiefs do, and the cost of this type of life is great, and we have a good idea of what happened to Judas Iscariot. At the postal facility where I worked as a craft employee, management (supervisors) would leave money on the workroom floor and watch to see if a employee would pick it up and put it in their pocket. Ifso, the employee would be fired.
Also, as another example, as a former police officer, I made many shoplifting arrests by use of video cameras recording the criminal act. My point is that those who have abused their power and trust have been watched and recorded , and it is a matter of time before judgement and punishment.

As for calling (in some cases"demanding")  for changes in the OCA, I think that a person should look deep into their own "backyard" before telling their neighbor what to do. Such as, for those who were offered and accepted high positions in the OCA out of seminary do to political favor and not merit, should examine themselves. And to those who "bailed out" during the time of "financial improprieties" within the OCA,( instead of "bringing to light" the
so called perpetrators and evil acts), should greatly examine themselves.

And if someone is looking for forgiveness and support from the OCA family and repentance from past wrongs and illicit deeds, should not take a position in a well established parish. But rather take a parish position the old-fashion way--- Earn It ! Labor in the fields and harvest the rewards. Do missionary work here in the USA, as they say, "just do it", stop taking, stop talking, start providing. 

Yes, I do believe that the OCA is in need of changes. To many chiefs and not enough indians. To much Bureaucracy, not enough grass-roots action.
Just my first thoughts on the subject.
Thom Ashton  Wink



Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #129 on: July 03, 2007, 03:30:16 PM »

Welcome to OC.net, Thom.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #130 on: July 04, 2007, 11:21:09 AM »

Soulsanchor:

Welcome and a very good post I might add.  Wink
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
soulsanchor
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #131 on: July 06, 2007, 10:45:27 AM »

Greetings To All;
Thank you for your reply's. I wrote this msg. after recently reading a long self-centered notice on OCA.org, http://www.ocanews.org/ (O C Accountability),from a young Fr. John Hopko of how he did not know anything, at anytime, anywhere. My aching foot!

His proclaimed self-righteousness made me ill and to wonder why this man is a priest, is he in for a career or in for the calling. Sofar, I see that he has been treated very well by the OCA because of his last name,(for which he will name-drop on us in a minute), and not of his merit.

My opinion, his kind of pride is part of the problem, nothing to do with the solution. 

Please Forgive Me,
Thom

edited to correct website - Arimethea
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 03:50:02 AM by arimethea » Logged
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #132 on: July 07, 2007, 12:57:54 AM »

Quote
I see that he has been treated very well by the OCA because of his last name,(for which he will name-drop on us in a minute), and not of his merit.

LOL Cheesy

I did notice he brought up his father and grandfather's name a few times in his article.
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,816



« Reply #133 on: July 07, 2007, 03:05:32 AM »

Greetings To All;
Thank you for your reply's. I wrote this msg. after recently reading a long self-centered notice on OCA.org, (O C Accountability),from a young Fr. John Hopko of how he did not know anything, at anytime, anywhere. My aching foot!

His proclaimed self-righteousness made me ill and to wonder why this man is a priest, is he in for a career or in for the calling. Sofar, I see that he has been treated very well by the OCA because of his last name,(for which he will name-drop on us in a minute), and not of his merit.

My opinion, his kind of pride is part of the problem, nothing to do with the solution. 

Please Forgive Me,
Thom

Thom I tried to find that article on the OCA site but could not ---would you send me PM or post the web address so I may read it.

Thomas
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 03:05:55 AM by Thomas » Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #134 on: July 07, 2007, 03:53:35 AM »

Thom

Quote
Please Forgive Me

Only if you apologize to Fr. John first, and then promise to play nice. Wink
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Tags: OCA  financial  crisis scandal 
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.125 seconds with 72 queries.