Author Topic: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?  (Read 16146 times)

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Offline Elisha

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2007, 05:50:30 PM »
So, we should just shoot ourselves in the foot?  C'mon guys!  This just sounds like a self-fulfililng prophecy.

Offline Elisha

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2007, 05:57:58 PM »
I hope you're staying up with ocanews.  Today it says the following:

Does anyone know who "Nescott" is or why that's significant?

I'm also not seeing evidence of a clean up here.

ocanews has turned into a sensationalist Orthotabloid.  I don't really pay attention to it anymore.

Offline Bono Vox

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2007, 06:56:06 PM »
Quote
ocanews has turned into a sensationalist Orthotabloid.  I don't really pay attention to it anymore.

So does that mean you don't have a problem with what the Metropolitian is doing??  How exactly is it a "Orthotabloid"?
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Offline Elisha

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2007, 07:15:37 PM »
So does that mean you don't have a problem with what the Metropolitian is doing??  How exactly is it a "Orthotabloid"?

Sorry, I'm not playing your game of absolutes anymore.

Offline Starlight

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2007, 07:23:27 PM »
Over the centuries, the Church in different countries has been exposed to different problems and violations, and nevertheless She survived. I am not a member of OCA, however I always been symapthetic of this jurisdiction.  I hope for the best in the long run. What I still can percieve as a good sign, that the statement of the Synod from 03/22/2007 remains on the official site of OCA and it has been neither deleted, nor a contradictory document has been posted. Perhaps, the next (48) will be the most essential and during this time the major course will be determined. In particular, the position of His Beatitude Metropolitan Herman will become evident. All feelings are understandable, of course, it hurts, but if I were a member of OCA, I would insist on clean-up, but would not jump from the ship. Look at the struggle of Archbshop Job, Fr. Dmitry Grigorieff and others.

Please do not consider me a fanatic, but during the next couple of week, prayers for regulation of the crisis will be important.

Yes, I am for laicizing Fr. Robert Kondratick. But what we need to keep in mind. We all been in the Church for some time. nstead, some others are in the process of cathecumenate, occasional visits to Orthodox parishes, etc. It is necessary to make sure that the crisis would not drive potential members away from the Orthodox Church. It seems even applicable to consider that jursidictional boundaries may be not so introduced to these people, so the negative impact may take place in some other jurisdictions also. And if even a couple of people would turn around (from Orthodoxy, which can not be compared to switching canonical jurisdictions), even that would be too much. For example, being born from an Orthodox Christian mother and an Atheist father, I have found that my life was better because of the Faith.

Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2007, 05:16:03 PM »
While this situation is indeed shameful and humbling, refraining from giving money to the Church is both un-Christian and not the answer... you are harming your own parish far more than sending a message to Syosset.

Multiple people seem to be suggesting this though, including some who post here and who stated as much in the "what do you think will happen thread".  This letter even says it's a moral imperative to stop giving - http://www.ocanews.org/news/CriesofAnger32707.html

Also, this letter says the bishop of Alaska is in a fight with the Metropolitan over Alaskan lands.  Anyone know what that's about?  It says he did not even attend the recent meeting of the Metropolitan Council.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 05:16:53 PM by welkodox »

Offline Elisha

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2007, 06:18:53 PM »
Multiple people seem to be suggesting this though, including some who post here and who stated as much in the "what do you think will happen thread".  This letter even says it's a moral imperative to stop giving - http://www.ocanews.org/news/CriesofAnger32707.html

Also, this letter says the bishop of Alaska is in a fight with the Metropolitan over Alaskan lands.  Anyone know what that's about?  It says he did not even attend the recent meeting of the Metropolitan Council.

So how do you prevent your money going to Syosset?  Has your diocese/bishop decided not to?  Your parish to the diocese or you to your parish?  Just because someone writes and editorial one a website doesn't mean I have to listen to them.

Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2007, 08:51:45 PM »
No certainly it doesn't mean you need to listen to them.  I think those people are angry and hurt and can't think of any other way to protest what is going on.  I can't really blame them.

Offline admiralnick

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2007, 09:55:19 PM »
I'm still trying to figure out how people are "hurting" syosset by holding their donations. The local churches pay a $183 fee to the National Church for Membership based on the number of members considered in financial good standing by the parish by-laws. THis estimated number can be changed once a year, on the anniversary of the assessment. So if your church considers you a member in "financial good standing", the church will be paying for you whether you put the money in or not. So you're actually shifting the payment burden from your pocket to the general parish fund, which is from your pocket anyways. So how does this hurt Syosset?

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Offline Elisha

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2007, 09:58:15 PM »
I'm still trying to figure out how people are "hurting" syosset by holding their donations. The local churches pay a $183 fee to the National Church for Membership based on the number of members considered in financial good standing by the parish by-laws. THis estimated number can be changed once a year, on the anniversary of the assessment. So if your church considers you a member in "financial good standing", the church will be paying for you whether you put the money in or not. So you're actually shifting the payment burden from your pocket to the general parish fund, which is from your pocket anyways. So how does this hurt Syosset?

-Nick

Thank you for making my point crystal clear.

Offline admiralnick

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2007, 10:06:46 PM »
Thank you for making my point crystal clear.

 You're welcome  ;D
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Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2007, 10:19:30 PM »
It's a recurring theme on that site however.  Perhaps if even a futile gesture, it is the one form of protest that people feel they can act upon.

I also read a comment disparaging the GOA.  I would think at this time that would be the last thing members of the OCA would be doing.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 10:19:53 PM by welkodox »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2007, 10:22:39 PM »
Thank you for making my point crystal clear.

Of course, if you withhold the money from the parish (the $183 or whatever), then you're not exactly "in good standing," now are you?  You haven't technically paid all that you must for your membership, right?  (Just playing up the other side... I don't think that withholding money from the Church's other legitimate national ministries is the answer).
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2007, 09:41:17 AM »
Since a few days' postings have been lost, I figured I'd get in my moderation message before these various OCA debates get too fired up again.

Some folks here on the site have been put off by the unsubstantiated allegations that a few have put out here, including some of the posts which were lost.  So for future sake, let's follow the dignified and Christian way (especially for lent!) and only discuss what we know and/or can prove here; let's avoid innuendo, rumor, and unsubstantiated allegations.

Thank you very much.  Let me emphasize - this is not to stifle discussion about the serious, legitimate, and pressing issues of our Church.

Cleveland - GM
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 09:41:59 AM by cleveland »
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Offline cholmes

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2007, 11:32:24 AM »
Archbishop Job's letter regarding the recent news - http://midwestdiocese.org/news/archpastoral_letter

Offline Tamara

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2007, 11:49:28 AM »
SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications]

Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2007, 12:38:15 PM »
Archbishop Job's letter regarding the recent news - http://midwestdiocese.org/news/archpastoral_letter

"I stand with the other Hierarchs of the Holy Synod in support of the efforts of His Beatitude Metropolitan HERMAN."

Wow.  Just when you think it can't get worse...

The letter posted on the OCA site from Herman to Dmitri is just bizarre.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 12:43:08 PM by welkodox »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2007, 02:30:57 PM »
MODERATION:
This was posted by Tamara in a new thread.
Please keep all posts relating to the current situation in the OCA in this thread.
George


Click on this link: http://www.savetheoca.org/
From the home page:

Throughout the ongoing scandal, the members of the OCA have stood quietly by waiting for leadership and action by those managing our church. However, the hierarchy of our beloved church has failed to act, and now is the time for us, together, to pledge our support for change and accountability.

How can we help? By proving that we, the community of the church, are willing to contribute and help rebuild what is left of our beloved church. We ask that all OCA members complete our pledge form. To be clear, we are not taking your money. We are taking your word - a promise to help rebuild the OCA when the conditions of our f         raising effort are met. Those conditions are:

1) The currrent leader of our church, Metropolitan Herman, must step down either by resignation or by termination;
2) All results of the Special Commission will be legally distributed to all dues paying members of the Orthodox Church in America and publicized in its entirety on OCA.org;
3) All parties implicated by the special commission will receive a just penalty for their parts in any activities against the by-laws of the church; likewise; if the report specifies that any illegal activities ensued, that those responsible parties will be turned over to the proper civil authorities.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 02:58:49 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2007, 09:08:38 PM »
Quote
So how do you prevent your money going to Syosset?

I don't know but this is what a letter stated that was published today

Effective immediately, the undersigned faithful of St. Paul the Apostle Orthodox Church's Parish Council, Dayton, OH, call upon Your Eminence, and the Diocesan Council, to cut off all funding to the Orthodox Church in America. As a parish we cannot in good conscience nor with any sense of godly stewardship continue to fund the OCA because of the failure of its Synod of Bishops.

I think I also read that somebody is now estimating that as much as $10 million may be missing.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2007, 10:21:27 PM »
I think I also read that somebody is now estimating ...
"I think", "somebody", "estimating".......
These are the namby-pamby, wishy-washy words used by gossips and basically mean "I have no evidence, so I'm just gonna spead rumours."
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Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2007, 10:34:22 PM »
No, I think people are trying to tally up the exact total.  It appears based on the records released so far that there are multiple years where there is 1 to 2 million unaccounted for.

So it's not an issue of no evidence no rumors.  It's more or less people trying to tally up the real cost.  The fact that they won't release the real totals does keep people guessing though.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 10:35:11 PM by welkodox »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2007, 10:43:48 PM »
No, I think people are trying to tally up the exact total. 
Again you "think"....so you don't even know that for a fact......
If one states something in a public medium which they do not know to be true, that is gossipping and spreading rumours.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 10:47:24 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2007, 11:01:26 PM »
When I use the word I think, that means I think I know why they may be trying to figure out the extent of the costs.

I suppose overall, one could say this is a Catch-22 for people in the OCA.  The Metropolitan Council could withold the real information about what happened, and then people would be left with no way of discussing this without being open to the charge of "rumor spreading" or "gossip".  It seems to me people have a right to discuss what the real costs may be, because this affects them directly.  I tend to think rumor spreading or gossip has more to do with discussing people's personal lives, and not with what the dollar amounts may be.

Either way, people are not making things up, as the rough idea of the amount of money is at least partially documented here based on what's been released so far.

http://www.ocanews.org/chronology.html

Offline GiC

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2007, 11:02:19 PM »
Again you "think"....so you don't even know that for a fact......
If one states something in a public medium which they do not know to be true, that is gossipping and spreading rumours.

Ah george, but now that I'm not at the seminary, where else can I go for all the good jucy ecclesiastical gossip...

I just have to know who's mad at who, who's stealing from who, who's sleeping with who, etc...

It's just like one big soap opera, and we all need our fix today and will need it again tomorrow ;)
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Offline BrotherAidan

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2007, 11:16:38 PM »
This crisis should have been dealt with a long time ago.

The original whistle blower on this scandal revealed enough for some actions to have been taken, instead of delay and stonewall after delay and stonewall.

This is like the Nixon administration, dragging things out. It is shameful.

No one can say what they know for fact because the hierarchs still won't release the report. That's why people say, "I think..."

The hierarchs are at fault for this. They act like a bunch of mainline protestant denominational bureaucrats. It's disgusting.

Someone (or someones) still in power has something to hide and won't give it up easily.

Offline admiralnick

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2007, 08:53:21 AM »
I'm confused about what is actually in play in this thread since everything that we say that doesn't relate to what has "officially" been released could be considered gossip. But I will say that from a financial accounting perspective even if he wanted to, Fr. Kondratic could not have pulled off this crime by himself. Anyone who is nieve enough to believe that he acted alone should not be allowed to have a part in this investigation. The breath and amount of money involved in this situation are too great to be perpetrated by one person, there had tp be multiple people colluding on this point.

Is this a definate and true statement of fact?   No

Is it gossip? No

Is it an opinion based on the assembly of available information? Yes

Should it be allowed?  We'll see when it gets moderated

Should I stop doing this line by line questioning? Yes


The line by line thing was to illustrate a point of how OCAnews.org has turned into nothing more than a media outlet to get people in a crazed manner like all media outlets do. They're about the story and keeping people interested, not about actually getting down to the bottom of the case.

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Offline aserb

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2007, 09:05:58 AM »
Nickman

So true!
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Offline Cowboy

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2007, 10:16:09 AM »
If not for OCANEWS the whole scandal would have been swept under the rug and Father Kondratick and his allies would STILL be stealing the donations of the Faithful.  Don't confuse the messenger with the message. OCANEWS would not exist or have to exist if the Central Administration of the OCA and the Holy Synod of Bishops ACTED as if they were Christians who fear God. They lied and stonewalled for YEARS after the scandal first came to light and would still be doing so, if not for the bright light cast upon them by OCANEWS.

Cowboy

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2007, 11:52:28 AM »
I don't know but this is what a letter stated that was published today

Effective immediately, the undersigned faithful of St. Paul the Apostle Orthodox Church's Parish Council, Dayton, OH, call upon Your Eminence, and the Diocesan Council, to cut off all funding to the Orthodox Church in America. As a parish we cannot in good conscience nor with any sense of godly stewardship continue to fund the OCA because of the failure of its Synod of Bishops.

I think I also read that somebody is now estimating that as much as $10 million may be missing.

I applaud this action by the faithful of this church, but, at the same time, am wondering if they are actually from here on out going to receive any money from OCA coffers. 
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Cowboy

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2007, 12:00:09 PM »
No established parish gets any money from the OCA. It is a one way street. Money flows from parish to diocese to OCA HQ. None dribbles back

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2007, 12:38:33 PM »
Ah, I see.

Well, then, good on the parishoners of St. Paul's!
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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2007, 12:51:47 PM »
Ah, I see.

Well, then, good on the parishoners of St. Paul's!

I've worshipped with the people at St. Paul's. (My home parish was the GOA parish in that city, but from time to time I'd drop in there...)

I wish them well, as I wish all my friends in the OCA well. Somehow this difficulty is also a gift from the Spirit, and it will be interesting to observe what fruit will be borne from this debacle.
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2007, 01:39:17 PM »
I think I also read that somebody is now estimating that as much as $10 million may be missing.

Highly unlikely, considering that would represent more money than the entire annual budget of the OCA for years and years and years. For whatever reason, people seem to imagine that the OCA is some large, well-funded, well-organized ecclesiastical body. I suppose that way this alleged malfeasance seems more shocking.
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Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2007, 02:35:23 PM »
I think on the subject of gossip and rumor, we have to look at what is being discussed and what people's intentions are.  What troubles me are statements that are clearly about attacking someone personally, have the obvious connotation of false information or most importantly one can discern are from the motivation of seeking to make things worse and not better.

Perhaps it is rumor and gossip for instance for people to try and guess what the total amount stolen is.  I think if people are trying to understand, and they are talking about this and speculating for the purposes of understanding all of this with the intention to actually fix the problem and do what's right - I personally do not have a problem with that.

That's just me.

Offline Schultz

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2007, 02:40:08 PM »
That's just me.

Well, we don't want your common sense and Christian courtesy around here, buddy. ;)
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Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2007, 10:28:07 PM »
The OCA announced that Fr. Kondratick has been suspended.

http://oca.org/News.asp?ID=1214&SID=19

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2007, 11:37:19 PM »
sheeeesh....its about time!
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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2007, 10:47:41 PM »
Archbishop Job removes himself as accusser in the trial of Kondratick.

Here is a link

http://www.ocanews.org/news/ArchbishopWithdraws4.30.07.html
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Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2007, 08:55:09 AM »
What is the current status of all this?  I noticed on OCA News today it says this:

Metropolitan Herman Officially Suspends Special Commission

• Asserts Future Work, If Any, To Be Determined And Directed By Him
• Orders Any Future Reports To Go To Him


That doesn't sound good to me.

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2007, 11:37:50 AM »
That doesn't sound good to me.

It shouldn't.  The article from OCA news http://www.ocanews.org/news/HermanSuspendsCommission52107.html
indicates that reports of the commission have been "lost", certain attorneys have been summarily dismissed for voiceing opposition.   This has all the makings of a cover-up.  Lord have mercy!
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Offline authio

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2007, 01:22:29 PM »
To put a hopeful spin on all this, when we get some of the money back, we should invest it in parish rennovations - as in my parish!  We have a dungeon for a social hall - does anyone else go to a 100 year old church with a social hall beneath the nave?  See, it would have light, but there's tall buildings/trees around it now so it's all dark save the electric lights.  OCA thieves, give us some money!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 01:22:43 PM by authiodionitist »
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Offline AMM

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2007, 01:23:21 PM »
It shouldn't.  The article from OCA news http://www.ocanews.org/news/HermanSuspendsCommission52107.html
indicates that reports of the commission have been "lost", certain attorneys have been summarily dismissed for voiceing opposition.   This has all the makings of a cover-up.  Lord have mercy!

It's just mind boggling.  Are people at the parish level in the OCA talking about it anymore?

What's most interesting to me is that the Metropolitan seems to be able to act without reference of his synod of bishops.  I would say he's acting with Papal type power, but I don't think the Pope could get away with what he's doing.

More theory and reality I guess.

Offline Nacho

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2007, 02:23:04 PM »
Quote
It's just mind boggling.  Are people at the parish level in the OCA talking about it anymore?

What's most interesting to me is that the Metropolitan seems to be able to act without reference of his synod of bishops.  I would say he's acting with Papal type power, but I don't think the Pope could get away with what he's doing.

More theory and reality I guess.

I know at my parish we talk about. When it’s just a few of us guys hanging out after church or at our men’s breakfast, our priest really speaks his mind about the scandal and how corrupt some of the hierarchy is. He's pretty close to Archbishop Job, so we constantly hear about what’s happening behind the scenes and it isn't pretty. Our priest during the homily has also brought it up a few times and encourages our parishioners to remain faithful and not to get too discouraged. The Metropolitan is accountable to no one apparently, and should have resigned long ago because he has disgraced his office.
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Offline authio

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2007, 12:25:52 PM »
Such naysayers on the Metropolitan!  I'm glad I'm out on the Pacific coast, where we're far away from Orthodox ghettos (and sadly lack some of that glorious Christian culture!).
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Offline admiralnick

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Re: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2007, 09:14:24 PM »
Archbishop Job gave a very rousing oratory today after the Kneeling Vespers. He feels that the situation is worse than its ever been, and that it is time for us (the lay people) to take a stand and start to correct the problem. He asks that we do so by Praying for him, giving him strength, and helping to be supportive of his efforts. I believe that when the next Midwest Council Meeting comes up in October there will be alot of questions and some tough stances taken against the National Church on this issue. However, irregardless of all this, I ask everyone to pray for Archbishop Job that the Lord will help him to reveal the correct path on this issue.


-Nick
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