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Author Topic: OCA financial crisis coming to a head?  (Read 15532 times) Average Rating: 0
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cholmes
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« on: March 16, 2007, 11:50:16 AM »

I know there was a lengthy thread on the OCA's financial scandal, but that sort of drifted off course so I'm starting this one.  I, like many, have been following the scandal with much interest.  Seems that things are heating up considerably, as evidenced by the events at the most recent meeting of the Metropolitan Council - http://ocanews.org/news/HighDrama.html.

I get the feeling that how this report is handled by the Holy Synod will play a large part in determining the future of the OCA.  Am I reading too much into it?
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2007, 01:16:37 PM »

I agree with you. Let's pray that the bishops have courage to follow the advice of the council.
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2007, 01:19:15 PM »

3.16.07
Unhampered and Unobstructed

The Special Investigating Commission of the OCA Metropolitan Council must continue its work unhampered and unobstructed. The Commission must not only question Metropolitan Theodosius, Metropolitan Herman and Fr. Robert Kondratick about financial matters. It must question all of the church's hierarchs, all who worked at the OCA Chancery, and all leaders of church institutions, including seminaries and monasteries, since 1990. Its goal must not only be an accurate explanation of the financial malaise. It must also be the production of a comprehensive report with specific recommendations for concrete actions. Only in this way will the systemic sickness that caused our present scandal be properly diagnosed and effectively treated. For our present disease, disorder and dysfunction are not simply a matter of personal weakness, incompetence and sin. They are also the result of erroneous theological understandings and misguided practical policies about the nature and operation of Christ's Holy Church.

Protopresbyter Thomas Hopko
Dean Emeritus
St. Vladimirís Orthodox Theological Seminary
Crestwood, New York

http://www.ocanews.org/reflections.html
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2007, 01:31:06 PM »

Quote
I get the feeling that how this report is handled by the Holy Synod will play a large part in determining the future of the OCA.  Am I reading too much into it?

I would think it would.  If I was a layperson in the OCA, I don't think I would drop another nickel in the coffers unless I felt like there was accountability for what has happened so it didn't again.

More generally speaking, my impression is the financial crisis has really revealed some deeper issues in the OCA.  Simply having the synod address this particular problem, doesn't make the others go away.  I am not particularly encouraged about the future of the OCA myself.
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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2007, 05:34:01 PM »

I would think it would.  If I was a layperson in the OCA, I don't think I would drop another nickel in the coffers unless I felt like there was accountability for what has happened so it didn't again.

More generally speaking, my impression is the financial crisis has really revealed some deeper issues in the OCA.  Simply having the synod address this particular problem, doesn't make the others go away.  I am not particularly encouraged about the future of the OCA myself.

While this situation is indeed shameful and humbling, refraining from giving money to the Church is both un-Christian and not the answer... you are harming your own parish far more than sending a message to Syosset.  While it is a dark period in the history of the OCA, I have faith it will pass and the administration will end up being all the stronger when everything has settled.
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2007, 09:29:44 PM »

I have faith it will pass and the administration will end up being all the stronger when everything has settled.
I agree. Also, addition of Fr. Alexander Garklavs and Fr. Andrew Jarmus to the upper leadership of OCA provide a lot of encouragement. Kevin Kovalycsik also appears to be well qualified and prepared for his new position.

I agree with you. Let's pray that the bishops have courage to follow the advice of the council.
That is a great summary!
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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2007, 11:17:49 PM »

The current metropolitan must go. He is a mouse.

It is obvious that the kind of "chuchmen" (people for whom it is all about the institutional health of the denomination, regardless of faithfulness to doctrine, morals or ethics) I despised as a protestant are in power in the OCA. May Bishop Job and other true Christians gain leadership of the OCA.
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2007, 12:01:14 AM »

Quote
The current metropolitan must go. He is a mouse.

It is obvious that the kind of "chuchmen" (people for whom it is all about the institutional health of the denomination, regardless of faithfulness to doctrine, morals or ethics) I despised as a protestant are in power in the OCA. May Bishop Job and other true Christians gain leadership of the OCA.

Amen.

Archbishob Job is my bishop. We are proud of him for being such a beacon of light in these troubled times. I think that the OCA is squandering it's autocephalecy. Perhaps it would be better for the OCA to disolve and go back to the mother churches. Perhaps this is the only way to achieve an American Orthodox church??? Constantinople will never recognize the OCA.  I personally wish that my parish was part of the Antiochan church. The OCA scandal has caused many to become dishearted and synical of our leadership.
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2007, 02:42:37 PM »

While this situation is indeed shameful and humbling, refraining from giving money to the Church is both un-Christian and not the answer... you are harming your own parish far more than sending a message to Syosset.

I meant in the case of if the recommendations of the Metropolitan were followed and essentially the whole scandal was not dealt with.  I would not only stop contributing, I would look for another church at that point.

Quote
While it is a dark period in the history of the OCA, I have faith it will pass and the administration will end up being all the stronger when everything has settled.

Hopefully it will, but what will the OCA bring to Orthodoxy in America.  That to me is the real question.

It is obvious that there are many issues under the surface that this whole event has been bringing out.  I have read some things that I think are encouraging, but a number that I do not.
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2007, 06:25:08 AM »

I had a chance to meet the Metropolitan a few weeks ago when he came to our mission to celebrate its 10th anniversary. He seemed like a very nice man but was very unassuming. I think he may not have been strong enough to deal with the likes of others. Thats not to say he was a bad man just a weak one.

He also saved our mission from closing. Our last Priest tried to close it down for reasons still unknown. He looted the treasury and then claimed we were bankrupt. We appealed to Metropolitan Herman and he gave us money a new priest and allowed us to stay open.

While he may not be a perfect Metropolitan I believe he is a decent man who got caught up in this mess and was not strong enough to end it on his own. I pray he will retire on his own and not be kicked out. I think new leadership is needed but I would really hate to see Metropolitan Herman thrown out.m If it does come to that though he does need to go and Archbishop Job would be a wonderful Metropolitan. Bishop Tikhon (Mollard) would also make a wonderful Metropolitan. I've know him for a few years now.
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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2007, 08:18:35 AM »

I don't know how much of a shrinking violet he is.  While bishop of Eastern Pennsylvania in the early 80's he decreed that all parishes in the diocese that used the Julian Calendar had to drop it and go to the New Calendar.  It touched off a schism that sent a number of parishes to the ROCOR.
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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2007, 05:05:07 PM »

Archbishob Job is my bishop. We are proud of him for being such a beacon of light in these troubled times. I think that the OCA is squandering it's autocephalecy. Perhaps it would be better for the OCA to disolve and go back to the mother churches. Perhaps this is the only way to achieve an American Orthodox church??? Constantinople will never recognize the OCA.  I personally wish that my parish was part of the Antiochan church. The OCA scandal has caused many to become dishearted and synical of our leadership.

From another Russian Orthodox, I'm glad of Archbishop Job as well - and consider him a true pastor of his flock. I think "squandering autocephaly" is a way to put it, but that was also handled poorly from the beginning as it was an autocephaly that did not include the rest of the Orthodox in America. I don't think dissolving OCA is the answer, however - rather, an accountability to the rest of the Church is needed. 'Going back to the mother churches' is only an answer if it does *not* include mere absorption back into the MP. No step backwards should be taken - however, a step *forward* could include a rapprochement with ROCOR maybe to include OCA participating in ROCOR's self-ruled status and also incorporating the MP parishes in North America (IIRC, the Canadian MP parishes were wanting to join OCA anyways?) Also, it is near time for the MP parishes to leave behind the 'dead end' that was left for them some thirty years ago. A unified OCA/ROCOR/ROCUSA presence would not only allow the preservation (and recovery) of the Russian Orthodox tradition, but overcome sins of bickering and fighting over generations. It would also be a step towards Orthodox unity. Just maybe it would be the next step in charity: as the reunification of the two Antiochian Archdioceses was, and now the ROCOR-MP reunion. That next step could even foresee an eventual reunion of GOA with AOA and JPUSA (by man's calculations, impossible - as the Russian and Antiochian situations had been considered in their times of separation), and the Bulgarians and Romanians in America reunited with each other. That is the dual call - not only to unity inside the Orthodox Church, but also to hold fast to the Orthodox faith. 
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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2007, 07:25:01 PM »

From another Russian Orthodox, I'm glad of Archbishop Job as well - and consider him a true pastor of his flock. I think "squandering autocephaly" is a way to put it, but that was also handled poorly from the beginning as it was an autocephaly that did not include the rest of the Orthodox in America. I don't think dissolving OCA is the answer, however - rather, an accountability to the rest of the Church is needed. 'Going back to the mother churches' is only an answer if it does *not* include mere absorption back into the MP. No step backwards should be taken - however, a step *forward* could include a rapprochement with ROCOR maybe to include OCA participating in ROCOR's self-ruled status and also incorporating the MP parishes in North America (IIRC, the Canadian MP parishes were wanting to join OCA anyways?) Also, it is near time for the MP parishes to leave behind the 'dead end' that was left for them some thirty years ago. A unified OCA/ROCOR/ROCUSA presence would not only allow the preservation (and recovery) of the Russian Orthodox tradition, but overcome sins of bickering and fighting over generations. It would also be a step towards Orthodox unity. Just maybe it would be the next step in charity: as the reunification of the two Antiochian Archdioceses was, and now the ROCOR-MP reunion. That next step could even foresee an eventual reunion of GOA with AOA and JPUSA (by man's calculations, impossible - as the Russian and Antiochian situations had been considered in their times of separation), and the Bulgarians and Romanians in America reunited with each other. That is the dual call - not only to unity inside the Orthodox Church, but also to hold fast to the Orthodox faith. 

Aristibule,

While it is an interesting thought that OCA/ROCOR/MP could unite, I don't think the MP will allow a self-rule status of any of its churches in the western world with Russian populations. But many of the OCA parishes were never very Russian in character to begin with because they were of Carpatho-Russian heritage. However, many of those original parishes are now full of Orthodox Christians with no connections to any slavic roots. Plus, many more OCA parishes have been started by those who are new to Orthodoxy. Also, many Greek-Americans, Arab-Americans and others left their own archdioceses because they believe in an Orthodox Church that is open to all regardless of ethnicity. I am sure the Romanians and Bulgarians did not join the OCA in order to eventually be united with the MP otherwise they would have joined their own patriarchal churches. The rumor I have heard is that parishes under Bishop JOB wish to join with the Antiochians if the synod fails to do what it is suppose to do. But my hope is the synod will make the right decisions this week just like the Metropolitan council did after the layman, Gregory Nescott gave a very inspiring speech about the truth. I am a believer in the OCA's autocephalous status and I don't think they should give it up.  Having connections to a mother patriarchate is no guarantee there isn't corruption in the other jurisdictions. In fact, some of the mother patriarchates have their own corruption problems to deal with as we have witnessed with the Jerusalem patriarchate.
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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2007, 08:33:51 PM »

Quote
While it is an interesting thought that OCA/ROCOR/MP could unite, I don't think the MP will allow a self-rule status of any of its churches in the western world with Russian populations.

Yet - ROCOR does and will continue to have self-rule status. That was never questioned in the negotiations, and is a fact of the agreement. ROCOR already has self-rule status in union with Moscow (formalised on May 17th, 2007). The OCA also does in fact still have a sizeable Russian contingent - not only of Russian Americans particularly in the West, but also most of the recent immigrants from the CIS. Interesting fact about the Carpatho-Rusyns: Jordanville was moved to America from its foundations in what was formerly Czechoslovakia - the St Job of Pochaev Brotherhood in Ladomirovo, Czechoslovakia. Much of ROCOR originally was from Carpatho-Rusyn origins. Met. LAURUS was born in Ladomirovo, Czechoslovakia. The Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic part of the OCA is mostly in the Midwest/Mid-Atlantic States. That the OCA is multi-cultural is true, but so is the MP, ROCOR, Antioch - even the Greeks. The 'Americanness' of OCA is not unique, nor even all that American (I'm old American since Jamestown - and don't recognize much 'Americaness' in the OCA. It looks Russian to me - even when I was around Fr. John Reeves or Fr. John Maxwell, it still looked and felt Russian. So - I wouldn't sell any of them short, nor give in to negative stereotypes of what folk think OCA, ROCOR, or anyone else is supposed to be.

RE: Multiculturalism in the Greek church - ever met any Aromanians? Many in America - speak a Latin language, purer Latin than Romanian without all the loan words from Slavic. They have unique musical, dance, dress and food traditions. Also the Pontic Greeks are different culture than Morean Greeks, or Cypriots, etc. And there are even Hellenic Orthodox Gypsies, Hellenic Orthodox *Turks*, and other cultures in the Greek Orthodox Church. The Antiochians have Arabs, Greeks, Arameans and others in the Old World. Many forget this - and particulary that the Russian tradition is multi-cultural in the extreme: embracing folk from East Asians, Central Asians, Siberians, Turkic peoples, Caucasian folks, East Slavs, Karelians/Finns, Altaic people, Tatars, and many more ethnicities.
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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2007, 10:36:18 PM »

I think there are various reasons why Aristibule's scenario would not happen.  The ROCOR will remain self ruling, but their bishops will be confirmed by Moscow and their and their chrism will come from there.  I don't see how either they wouldn't give that up to link up with the OCA, or the OCA would have to reneg their claims to being autocephalous to go the other way.  There are also some sticky practical issues.  There are the parishes in Pennsylvania that left the OCA when the calendar change was forced on them by the current Metropolitan (then the bishop of Eastern PA).  There's also the fact that the OCA took a former ROCOR deacon and made him an Archbishop, the same former deacon who of course has wrote scathing attacks on one of the most prominent members of the ROCOR.

The MP has also shown no signs of interest to depart North America despite their statement that they would.  They have in fact expanded.  If anything happened to those parishes however, the likely scenario is they would go over to the ROCOR.

Lastly, based on things I've seen including some recently, there is still a strongly anti-traditionalist element in the OCA that I don't think would meld well with the ROCOR.
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2007, 06:05:38 AM »

I don't see the OCA joining with the MP/ROCOR anytime soon. I think it would be good for the OCA if it did but I just don't see it happening for the last reason Welkodox stated.

Quote
Lastly, based on things I've seen including some recently, there is still a strongly anti-traditionalist element in the OCA that I don't think would meld well with the ROCOR.

I think it more likely that they would join, as others have stated some parishes want to, the Antiochians. I don't want to see this happen. I stuck it out in the OCA this far but there needs to start being a light at the end of the tunnel. 
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2007, 07:50:21 AM »

The only jurisdiction I think they have a realistic chance of joining with right now is the AOA.  Given the number of times I have run across people in those churches talking about the "sin of jurisdictionalism" (including just the other day), and not the problem of there being multiple jurisdictions, I wish they would hurry up and do it instead of just throwing out statements like that.
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2007, 07:58:32 AM »

I agree with you. I think it is likely that AOA and the OCA will unite soon. For others I know and myself that would force us out of the OCA. To be honest I've been giving serious consideration to leaving the OCA. Between the financial scandal and other trends it may be time for me to go to the ROCOR.

The only jurisdiction I think they have a realistic chance of joining with right now is the AOA.  Given the number of times I have run across people in those churches talking about the "sin of jurisdictionalism" (including just the other day), and not the problem of there being multiple jurisdictions, I wish they would hurry up and do it instead of just throwing out statements like that.
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2007, 08:30:21 AM »

Well, there's still good people and good churches in the OCA.  I think if you like your parish that would be the most important thing.  Ultimately you should go wherever you are most comfortable.  The ROCOR certainly has a number of things going for it.

The OCA in my opinion has very poor leadership at the top, but that was my impression long before this whole mess broke out.  That more than anything else I think needs to change.
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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2007, 08:48:03 AM »

The people in the Church I go to is what has kept me in the OCA for 8 years. They are great people and I would not leave them. I've also had the honor to meet some wonderful OCA Clergy and Monastics that have also kept me around. The fact that I will be moving soon is giving me the ability to leave the OCA. I have not decided yet if that is what I'm going to do. I want to see if this recent scandal allows the OCA to change its leadership and right its course. I pray for this to be! If not or they join with the AOA then it will be time for me to leave.

Well, there's still good people and good churches in the OCA.  I think if you like your parish that would be the most important thing.  Ultimately you should go wherever you are most comfortable.  The ROCOR certainly has a number of things going for it.

The OCA in my opinion has very poor leadership at the top, but that was my impression long before this whole mess broke out.  That more than anything else I think needs to change.
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2007, 11:00:43 PM »

I hope the OCA joins with the AOC. Many of us are likeminded in evangelizing Orthodoxy to America. Even though I am part of the OCA, it was through the AOC that I learned about the true faith and discovered that I don't have to become Greek, Russian, Romanian, ect... to be Orthodox. They are good at removing the cultural barriers that hinder many people from joining the church. I am American Orthodox.
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2007, 01:10:27 PM »

I hope the OCA joins with the AOC. Many of us are likeminded in evangelizing Orthodoxy to America. Even though I am part of the OCA, it was through the AOC that I learned about the true faith and discovered that I don't have to become Greek, Russian, Romanian, ect... to be Orthodox. They are good at removing the cultural barriers that hinder many people from joining the church. I am American Orthodox.

But we Antiochians do not have autocephaly yet. The OCA does. I really want to see the OCA survive and then after they have finished cleaning house, I hope in the near future the Antiochians can then unite with the OCA.
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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2007, 03:09:23 PM »

I feel real sorry for the OCA and it's people that the problems that the OCA has, Had not been solved. As I have many friends in the OCA bot lay people and clergy, I pray that all the problems will be solved in good time. I for will pray for the OCA and all the people and Clergy.




I know there was a lengthy thread on the OCA's financial scandal, but that sort of drifted off course so I'm starting this one.  I, like many, have been following the scandal with much interest.  Seems that things are heating up considerably, as evidenced by the events at the most recent meeting of the Metropolitan Council - http://ocanews.org/news/HighDrama.html.

I get the feeling that how this report is handled by the Holy Synod will play a large part in determining the future of the OCA.  Am I reading too much into it?
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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2007, 04:02:21 PM »

I had actually never really read the information before, but today I read the summaries, the chronology and some current comments.  I have to say I am actually quite amazed at the scale of this, and they are in way more danger than I had believed.
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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2007, 04:37:57 PM »

I had actually never really read the information before, but today I read the summaries, the chronology and some current comments.  I have to say I am actually quite amazed at the scale of this, and they are in way more danger than I had believed.

Even being in the OCA, I was ignorant of this whole sordid affair until around last December.  Imagine my shock and dismay!   Sad
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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2007, 07:57:18 PM »

The people in the Church I go to is what has kept me in the OCA for 8 years. They are great people and I would not leave them. I've also had the honor to meet some wonderful OCA Clergy and Monastics that have also kept me around. The fact that I will be moving soon is giving me the ability to leave the OCA.

Thats one reason I love the Orthodox Church. You can leave a jurisdiction (in cases like this) if you feel it is not being run correctly, yet still be Orthodox in all aspects of life.
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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2007, 08:16:58 PM »

Thats one reason I love the Orthodox Church. You can leave a jurisdiction (in cases like this) if you feel it is not being run correctly, yet still be Orthodox in all aspects of life.

But what would you do if you lived in an Orthodox country which only had one synod and corruption was destroying your church? We have Orthodox franchises in this country. One can pick and choose according to one's own desires. But in reality our divisions are illusionary. The OCA's problems effect all of us. We all belong to the same Body and we all drink from the same Eucharistic cup. Don't think for a second that the other jurisdictions are immune to the disease or do not already suffer from it but the symptoms are still well-hidden.
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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2007, 08:23:58 PM »

Excerpt translated from a very old Greek cookbook I have which belonged to my Grandmother:
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TRADITIONAL METHOD FOR MAKING PROSFORO.
......
3) Sifting the Flour.
This involves at least three sieves of increasingly fine mesh to remove impurities and any chaff.
Place the flour into the first sieve held over a large bowl and repeatedly toss the sieve slightly until all the flour falls through to the bowl. Any chaff with be blown away, and larger impurities will remain in the sieve- throw these out and wash the sieve thoroughly, and allow it to dry in the sun.
Repeat this using the next smaller grade sieve, and again with the next until you have done so with the finest grade.
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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2007, 10:04:28 PM »

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But what would you do if you lived in an Orthodox country which only had one synod and corruption was destroying your church? We have Orthodox franchises in this country. One can pick and choose according to one's own desires. But in reality our divisions are illusionary. The OCA's problems effect all of us. We all belong to the same Body and we all drink from the same Eucharistic cup. Don't think for a second that the other jurisdictions are immune to the disease or do not already suffer from it but the symptoms are still well-hidden.

Amen Tamara! The divisions are illusionary. I couldn't have worded it better myself. Some Orthodox have a schismatic attitude with their hostility towards other Orthodox bodies which is all really one body. When we practice division, anger, and siding up, we are practicing schisim. Jesus prayed to The Father that we would be as one just as Him and The Father are one.
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2007, 12:33:05 AM »

Can we get back to picking on the Antiochians?

Just kidding!  Kiss

In happier news, His Grace Bishop Benjamin was just elected Bishop of Los Angeles, San Francisco and the West for the OCA!  Axios!  Axios!  Axios!
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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2007, 12:35:07 AM »

In happier news, His Grace Bishop Benjamin was just elected Bishop of Los Angeles, San Francisco and the West for the OCA!  Axios!  Axios!  Axios!

Axios! Axios! Axios! Great news! Thank you, Elisha.
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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2007, 08:49:34 PM »

Axios to Bishop BENJAMIN and alleluia to the beginning of the clean-up! If the OCA continues on this path they will set a precedent for the other jurisdictions on how to end corruption at the highest levels. With the advent of the internet it will be much harder to hide problems from the laity. In other words, corruption can no longer be swept under the rug.

Holy Synod of Bishops issues archpastoral statement

Article posted: 3/22/2007 7:10 PM
SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] — The members of the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America issued an archpastoral statement to the clergy, monastics, and faithful of the Church at the conclusion of their spring session held at the Chancery here March 20-22, 2007.

The text of the statement reads as follows.

“To the Reverend Clergy, Monastics and Faithful of the Orthodox Church in America:

“Dearly Beloved in the Lord:

“For more than a year, the Church has been preoccupied with allegations of improper financial activities by employees of the Chancery. By now, most are aware that the accusations are focused on three general areas, that:

“1. The processes in place for administrative and financial controls were routinely circumvented;

“2. Monies designated to specific charities were diverted and used for other purposes; and

“3. Church money was used for personal purposes.

“It must be confessed that during early 2006, there were many of us who believed that the allegations were exaggerated, motivated by the personal animosity of the accusers, or that there were simple explanations to these ‘misunderstandings.’ In March of 2006, it became apparent to us that we were wrong in these beliefs, and that there was substance to at least some of the claims. In addition, we realized that we were not equipped to investigate these matters without professional assistance. We solicited recommendations of law firms that had impeccable reputations and expertise to assist us in the investigation, and Proskauer Rose was selected to look into the allegations on our behalf. Their role was simple in concept, though difficult in execution; the firm was to review the allegations, to determine which ones were supported by credible evidence, and to advise us on possible courses of action. Assisting Proskauer in this assignment was our auditing firm Lambrides, Lamos, Moulthrop LLP.

“The investigation consisted of interviewing chancery employees and former employees, collecting and reviewing tens of thousands of documents from a variety of sources, such as the OCA archives, bank records, personal records of the interviewees, and Church financial records. In October of 2006, a representative group of the Holy Synod and the Metropolitan Council met with Sarah Gold (the partner at Proskauer conducting the investigation), to receive the presentation of her preliminary findings. The body of evidence that was presented was detailed and quite frankly, shocking. The confirmed instances of the abuse of Church trust were determined to be centered on one person, the former Chancellor of the Church.

“At its next meeting, the Holy Synod received a detailed summary of the Proskauer and Lambrides investigative work, and concluded that a joint meeting of the Holy Synod and the Metropolitan Council would be appropriate, given the nature and scope of the breakdown of the financial systems. On December 14, 2006, Ms. Gold and Mr. Steve Lamos (named partner of the Lambrides firm), appeared before us to present and answer questions from the Joint Session. At its conclusion, a Special Investigative Committee was appointed to complete the report on the investigation and to provide its recommendations to the Metropolitan Council. On March 13, 2007, the Metropolitan Council heard the result of the considerable amount of work done by the Committee in compiling the outcome of the investigative work done by the respective firms, and received their detailed written report. The report presented reliable and verifiable evidence to support the allegations leveled against the former chancellor of the OCA. The Metropolitan Council voted unanimously to recommend the ‘Immediate suspension of Father Kondratick by his bishop.’ The complete report was submitted to the Holy Synod, and was presented by Archbishop Job and Bishop Benjamin.

“In a letter of March 18, 2007, Archbishop Dmitri forwarded a request by Protopresbyter Kondratick to appear before the Holy Synod to ‘... answer any questions we might have related to the current situation in The Orthodox Church In America.’ After a consultation among the bishops, we agreed to permit him to appear as requested. On March 20, 2007, Fr. Kondratick appeared before us, presented his statement, and answered questions relating to his time as Chancellor. After substantial deliberation in executive session, we concurred that the explanations provided were neither credible nor persuasive, and found ourselves in agreement with the recommendation of the Metropolitan Council.

“At the written request of His Eminence, Archbishop Dmitri, and following consultation with the members of the Holy Synod, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Herman agreed to rescind the transfer of Protopresbyter Robert S. Kondratick to the Diocese of the South. Further actions appropriate under the circumstances will be initiated by Fr. Kondratick’s Bishop, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Herman.

“We know that strife and enmity have entered our lives during the course of this past year. Much has been said or written during this time that has added temptation, pain and suffering to so many. During these final days of Great Lent, we ask you to join us as your Archpastors. Let us stand together before our God of mercy, and beg His forgiveness for our sins, known and unknown. Let us re-enter His presence and the joy of His love and choose life, by following Him as the true and living way, our Companion, Guide, and Guardian during our earthly journey. As we celebrate Pascha and sing ‘Let God Arise,” may we accept the challenges contained in the text as we enter ever so deeply into the joy of His Kingdom.”

The statement was signed by Metropolitan Herman, Archbishop of Washington and New York, Metropolitan of All America and Canada, chairman; Archbishop Kyrill of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania and the Bulgarian Archdiocese; Archbishop Dmitri of Dallas and the South; Archbishop Nathaniel of Detroit and the Romanian Episcopate; Archbishop Job of Chicago and the Midwest; Archbishop Seraphim of Ottawa and Canada, secretary; Bishop Nikon of Boston, New England, and the Albanian Archdiocese; Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; Bishop Benjamin, Bishop-elect of San Francisco and the West; Bishop Alejo of Mexico City, Auxiliary to the Metropolitan; and Bishop Irineu of Dearborn Heights, Auxiliary to the Romanian Episcopate.

http://www.oca.org/NewsPrintable.asp?ID=1196
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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2007, 10:42:12 PM »

I find it hard to believe Fr. Kondratick acted alone, or is the only one complicit in this given the scale and duration of the improprieties.  I also wonder if he is not cooperating, if this will move beyond an investigation by church authorities.  I would assume the IRS would be interested in looking in to this.
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« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2007, 10:08:06 AM »

I find it hard to believe Fr. Kondratick acted alone, or is the only one complicit in this given the scale and duration of the improprieties.  I also wonder if he is not cooperating, if this will move beyond an investigation by church authorities.  I would assume the IRS would be interested in looking in to this.

I don't believe he acted alone either.  I do not wish to commit libel, but I have heard multiple times that a lot of what went on can be directly traced to Metropolitan Theodosius.  I doubt, however, that anything will be investigated on that front.
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« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2007, 10:01:40 PM »

 Undecided
Now. . . if the OCA and the AOC do unite, I wonder what they will call the combined body.

The Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church in America Huh    Undecided
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« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2007, 10:17:05 PM »

Sheesh, reading OCAnews one day then reading it the next day this week things changed fast. If I were OCA my head would be spinning. The best solution would be for Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman to take the Great Schema (if they do not have it already) for when a bishop takes the Great Schema after he is already a bishop his episcopacy is wiped out and in this way they could retire in peace to do penance and make something good out of this situation.  Fr. Kondratick should be made to do penance and Bishop Nikon of Boston should be the Metropolitan. Just my opinion since I am not OCA (although I saw a lot of these people in action).
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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2007, 02:33:30 AM »

I would like to see Archbishop Job, or Bishop Seraphim of Candada become Metropolitain. Preferably nobody who is currently apart of "the good old boys network".

I am really disappointed with our Metropolitian. I agree with Anastasios that both +Herman and +Theodosius should take the great schema. Is the Metropolitian oblivious to the fact that nearly everyone in the OCA thinks that he is corrupt?? Does he not have any shame?? I don't see how the OCA is going to survive.
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2007, 10:35:51 AM »

I have tried to keep my focus on Lent these past weeks, and to not worry too much about this scandal.  But after reading of Metropolitan Herman's most recent, mind-boggling actions, I fear that this may be the last Pascha I celebrate as a member of the OCA.  I have not yet made any decisions, but this is all just too much.  I know that no jurisdiction is perfect, but the audacity of those in charge of the OCA is stunning.
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2007, 11:42:13 AM »

I have tried to keep my focus on Lent these past weeks, and to not worry too much about this scandal.  But after reading of Metropolitan Herman's most recent, mind-boggling actions, I fear that this may be the last Pascha I celebrate as a member of the OCA.  I have not yet made any decisions, but this is all just too much.  I know that no jurisdiction is perfect, but the audacity of those in charge of the OCA is stunning.

I'm sorry, but all this talk such as your's and others sounds like those liberals that were determined to move to Canada after Bush got reelected.

Things such as, "O ye of little faith..." come to mind.  The Church has weathered FAR worse scandals then this, but members don't just change jurisdictions like shoes.  What - are you just "ashamed" at some actions so you want to leave?  By this same logic, there should have been some mass exodus in the AOA when that bishop had the incident in the casino or when Archbishop Iakovos was forced out or numerous other scandalous things that have happened through the years.

How about this - why don't all of you with these thoughts ask yourselves:  how has this actually affected you (or your parish) at the parish level?  I bet the answer is:  it hasn't affected you one iota.  The OCA hierarchy will move on and things will be fine.   Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2007, 11:57:42 AM »

While I am  not a member of the OCA jurisdiction.  I would dare to say that we have had hierarchs who have erred, sinned, and perhaps even embezzelled money in the History of the Church.  The Orthodox Church is greater than that, it is the true Church of Christ, and as such is above these petty situations.  Discipline who needs to be deisciplined that they may repent and be recnciled to the Church and get on with the  job of the Church, helping its members fiocus upon the Kingdom of God and how to enter it.

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« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2007, 03:13:09 PM »

How about this - why don't all of you with these thoughts ask yourselves:  how has this actually affected you (or your parish) at the parish level?  I bet the answer is:  it hasn't affected you one iota.  The OCA hierarchy will move on and things will be fine.   Smiley

Well for one thing, I stopped offering any money that might have to pass through Syosset.  That includes my yearly assessment. 

I'm not looking for perfection from Church leaders - I made that mistake before and shan't make it again.  But the acts committed by those in charge of the OCA threaten their own future existence.  I know it seems far-fetched, but I've read that one possible outcome of all this is that the OCA could lose its tax-exempt status.  I think that would affect not just my parish, but all OCA parishes.
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« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2007, 03:17:02 PM »

Axios to Bishop BENJAMIN and alleluia to the beginning of the clean-up! If the OCA continues on this path they will set a precedent for the other jurisdictions on how to end corruption at the highest levels. With the advent of the internet it will be much harder to hide problems from the laity. In other words, corruption can no longer be swept under the rug.

I hope you're staying up with ocanews.  Today it says the following:

Quote
• Herman Dismisses Nescott from Commission, Metropolitan Council
• Synod Has 'No Plans' To Release Special Commission's Report
• +Dmitri Now Refuses To Release Kondratick, Says Charges 'Unproven'

The OCA is reeling as the unbelievable news spreads via phone, fax, emails and text messages. Despite the carefully crafted and reassuring words of attorney Jim Perry which the Bishops put forth in their Archpastoral Statement, nothing has changed. The horrible truth is the culture of fear, half-truths and deception continues its reign in Syosset.

Does anyone know who "Nescott" is or why that's significant?

I'm also not seeing evidence of a clean up here.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 03:17:41 PM by welkodox » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2007, 03:39:05 PM »

I hope you're staying up with ocanews.  Today it says the following:

Does anyone know who "Nescott" is or why that's significant?

I'm also not seeing evidence of a clean up here.

Gregg Nescott is (or rather, was) a member of the OCA's Metropolitan Council.  He was placed on the Special Commission tasked with getting to the bottom of this whole mess.  He is an attorney by trade, I believe.  His suspension/dismissal basically signals that Metropolitan Herman will do anything he can to quash the investigation.
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« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2007, 04:43:13 PM »

How about this - why don't all of you with these thoughts ask yourselves:  how has this actually affected you (or your parish) at the parish level?  I bet the answer is:  it hasn't affected you one iota.  The OCA hierarchy will move on and things will be fine.   Smiley

How about the fact that they stopped giving Missions in NY money for 3 years because they were broke? I think that it did effect us!
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« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2007, 04:55:14 PM »

I would be willing to bet giving is down across the jurisdiction.  I bet this is actually affecting everybody, and the money for missions drying up is just evidence of that.

The money being spent on the investigation and any legal issues that arise will affect everyone else as well.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 04:57:33 PM by welkodox » Logged
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« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2007, 05:50:30 PM »

So, we should just shoot ourselves in the foot?  C'mon guys!  This just sounds like a self-fulfililng prophecy.
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« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2007, 05:57:58 PM »

I hope you're staying up with ocanews.  Today it says the following:

Does anyone know who "Nescott" is or why that's significant?

I'm also not seeing evidence of a clean up here.

ocanews has turned into a sensationalist Orthotabloid.  I don't really pay attention to it anymore.
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« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2007, 06:56:06 PM »

Quote
ocanews has turned into a sensationalist Orthotabloid.  I don't really pay attention to it anymore.

So does that mean you don't have a problem with what the Metropolitian is doing??  How exactly is it a "Orthotabloid"?
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« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2007, 07:15:37 PM »

So does that mean you don't have a problem with what the Metropolitian is doing??  How exactly is it a "Orthotabloid"?

Sorry, I'm not playing your game of absolutes anymore.
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« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2007, 07:23:27 PM »

Over the centuries, the Church in different countries has been exposed to different problems and violations, and nevertheless She survived. I am not a member of OCA, however I always been symapthetic of this jurisdiction.  I hope for the best in the long run. What I still can percieve as a good sign, that the statement of the Synod from 03/22/2007 remains on the official site of OCA and it has been neither deleted, nor a contradictory document has been posted. Perhaps, the next (48) will be the most essential and during this time the major course will be determined. In particular, the position of His Beatitude Metropolitan Herman will become evident. All feelings are understandable, of course, it hurts, but if I were a member of OCA, I would insist on clean-up, but would not jump from the ship. Look at the struggle of Archbshop Job, Fr. Dmitry Grigorieff and others.

Please do not consider me a fanatic, but during the next couple of week, prayers for regulation of the crisis will be important.

Yes, I am for laicizing Fr. Robert Kondratick. But what we need to keep in mind. We all been in the Church for some time. nstead, some others are in the process of cathecumenate, occasional visits to Orthodox parishes, etc. It is necessary to make sure that the crisis would not drive potential members away from the Orthodox Church. It seems even applicable to consider that jursidictional boundaries may be not so introduced to these people, so the negative impact may take place in some other jurisdictions also. And if even a couple of people would turn around (from Orthodoxy, which can not be compared to switching canonical jurisdictions), even that would be too much. For example, being born from an Orthodox Christian mother and an Atheist father, I have found that my life was better because of the Faith.
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« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2007, 05:16:03 PM »

While this situation is indeed shameful and humbling, refraining from giving money to the Church is both un-Christian and not the answer... you are harming your own parish far more than sending a message to Syosset.

Multiple people seem to be suggesting this though, including some who post here and who stated as much in the "what do you think will happen thread".  This letter even says it's a moral imperative to stop giving - http://www.ocanews.org/news/CriesofAnger32707.html

Also, this letter says the bishop of Alaska is in a fight with the Metropolitan over Alaskan lands.  Anyone know what that's about?  It says he did not even attend the recent meeting of the Metropolitan Council.

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« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2007, 06:18:53 PM »

Multiple people seem to be suggesting this though, including some who post here and who stated as much in the "what do you think will happen thread".  This letter even says it's a moral imperative to stop giving - http://www.ocanews.org/news/CriesofAnger32707.html

Also, this letter says the bishop of Alaska is in a fight with the Metropolitan over Alaskan lands.  Anyone know what that's about?  It says he did not even attend the recent meeting of the Metropolitan Council.

So how do you prevent your money going to Syosset?  Has your diocese/bishop decided not to?  Your parish to the diocese or you to your parish?  Just because someone writes and editorial one a website doesn't mean I have to listen to them.
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« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2007, 08:51:45 PM »

No certainly it doesn't mean you need to listen to them.  I think those people are angry and hurt and can't think of any other way to protest what is going on.  I can't really blame them.
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« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2007, 09:55:19 PM »

I'm still trying to figure out how people are "hurting" syosset by holding their donations. The local churches pay a $183 fee to the National Church for Membership based on the number of members considered in financial good standing by the parish by-laws. THis estimated number can be changed once a year, on the anniversary of the assessment. So if your church considers you a member in "financial good standing", the church will be paying for you whether you put the money in or not. So you're actually shifting the payment burden from your pocket to the general parish fund, which is from your pocket anyways. So how does this hurt Syosset?

-Nick
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« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2007, 09:58:15 PM »

I'm still trying to figure out how people are "hurting" syosset by holding their donations. The local churches pay a $183 fee to the National Church for Membership based on the number of members considered in financial good standing by the parish by-laws. THis estimated number can be changed once a year, on the anniversary of the assessment. So if your church considers you a member in "financial good standing", the church will be paying for you whether you put the money in or not. So you're actually shifting the payment burden from your pocket to the general parish fund, which is from your pocket anyways. So how does this hurt Syosset?

-Nick

Thank you for making my point crystal clear.
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« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2007, 10:06:46 PM »

Thank you for making my point crystal clear.

 You're welcome  Grin
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« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2007, 10:19:30 PM »

It's a recurring theme on that site however.  Perhaps if even a futile gesture, it is the one form of protest that people feel they can act upon.

I also read a comment disparaging the GOA.  I would think at this time that would be the last thing members of the OCA would be doing.
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« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2007, 10:22:39 PM »

Thank you for making my point crystal clear.

Of course, if you withhold the money from the parish (the $183 or whatever), then you're not exactly "in good standing," now are you?  You haven't technically paid all that you must for your membership, right?  (Just playing up the other side... I don't think that withholding money from the Church's other legitimate national ministries is the answer).
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« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2007, 09:41:17 AM »

Since a few days' postings have been lost, I figured I'd get in my moderation message before these various OCA debates get too fired up again.

Some folks here on the site have been put off by the unsubstantiated allegations that a few have put out here, including some of the posts which were lost.  So for future sake, let's follow the dignified and Christian way (especially for lent!) and only discuss what we know and/or can prove here; let's avoid innuendo, rumor, and unsubstantiated allegations.

Thank you very much.  Let me emphasize - this is not to stifle discussion about the serious, legitimate, and pressing issues of our Church.

Cleveland - GM
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« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2007, 11:32:24 AM »

Archbishop Job's letter regarding the recent news - http://midwestdiocese.org/news/archpastoral_letter
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« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2007, 11:49:28 AM »

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications]
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« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2007, 12:38:15 PM »

Archbishop Job's letter regarding the recent news - http://midwestdiocese.org/news/archpastoral_letter

"I stand with the other Hierarchs of the Holy Synod in support of the efforts of His Beatitude Metropolitan HERMAN."

Wow.  Just when you think it can't get worse...

The letter posted on the OCA site from Herman to Dmitri is just bizarre.
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« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2007, 02:30:57 PM »

MODERATION:
This was posted by Tamara in a new thread.
Please keep all posts relating to the current situation in the OCA in this thread.
George


Click on this link: http://www.savetheoca.org/
From the home page:

Throughout the ongoing scandal, the members of the OCA have stood quietly by waiting for leadership and action by those managing our church. However, the hierarchy of our beloved church has failed to act, and now is the time for us, together, to pledge our support for change and accountability.

How can we help? By proving that we, the community of the church, are willing to contribute and help rebuild what is left of our beloved church. We ask that all OCA members complete our pledge form. To be clear, we are not taking your money. We are taking your word - a promise to help rebuild the OCA when the conditions of our f         raising effort are met. Those conditions are:

1) The currrent leader of our church, Metropolitan Herman, must step down either by resignation or by termination;
2) All results of the Special Commission will be legally distributed to all dues paying members of the Orthodox Church in America and publicized in its entirety on OCA.org;
3) All parties implicated by the special commission will receive a just penalty for their parts in any activities against the by-laws of the church; likewise; if the report specifies that any illegal activities ensued, that those responsible parties will be turned over to the proper civil authorities.
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« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2007, 09:08:38 PM »

Quote
So how do you prevent your money going to Syosset?

I don't know but this is what a letter stated that was published today

Effective immediately, the undersigned faithful of St. Paul the Apostle Orthodox Church's Parish Council, Dayton, OH, call upon Your Eminence, and the Diocesan Council, to cut off all funding to the Orthodox Church in America. As a parish we cannot in good conscience nor with any sense of godly stewardship continue to fund the OCA because of the failure of its Synod of Bishops.

I think I also read that somebody is now estimating that as much as $10 million may be missing.
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« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2007, 10:21:27 PM »

I think I also read that somebody is now estimating ...
"I think", "somebody", "estimating".......
These are the namby-pamby, wishy-washy words used by gossips and basically mean "I have no evidence, so I'm just gonna spead rumours."
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« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2007, 10:34:22 PM »

No, I think people are trying to tally up the exact total.  It appears based on the records released so far that there are multiple years where there is 1 to 2 million unaccounted for.

So it's not an issue of no evidence no rumors.  It's more or less people trying to tally up the real cost.  The fact that they won't release the real totals does keep people guessing though.
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« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2007, 10:43:48 PM »

No, I think people are trying to tally up the exact total. 
Again you "think"....so you don't even know that for a fact......
If one states something in a public medium which they do not know to be true, that is gossipping and spreading rumours.
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« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2007, 11:01:26 PM »

When I use the word I think, that means I think I know why they may be trying to figure out the extent of the costs.

I suppose overall, one could say this is a Catch-22 for people in the OCA.  The Metropolitan Council could withold the real information about what happened, and then people would be left with no way of discussing this without being open to the charge of "rumor spreading" or "gossip".  It seems to me people have a right to discuss what the real costs may be, because this affects them directly.  I tend to think rumor spreading or gossip has more to do with discussing people's personal lives, and not with what the dollar amounts may be.

Either way, people are not making things up, as the rough idea of the amount of money is at least partially documented here based on what's been released so far.

http://www.ocanews.org/chronology.html
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« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2007, 11:02:19 PM »

Again you "think"....so you don't even know that for a fact......
If one states something in a public medium which they do not know to be true, that is gossipping and spreading rumours.

Ah george, but now that I'm not at the seminary, where else can I go for all the good jucy ecclesiastical gossip...

I just have to know who's mad at who, who's stealing from who, who's sleeping with who, etc...

It's just like one big soap opera, and we all need our fix today and will need it again tomorrow Wink
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« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2007, 11:16:38 PM »

This crisis should have been dealt with a long time ago.

The original whistle blower on this scandal revealed enough for some actions to have been taken, instead of delay and stonewall after delay and stonewall.

This is like the Nixon administration, dragging things out. It is shameful.

No one can say what they know for fact because the hierarchs still won't release the report. That's why people say, "I think..."

The hierarchs are at fault for this. They act like a bunch of mainline protestant denominational bureaucrats. It's disgusting.

Someone (or someones) still in power has something to hide and won't give it up easily.
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« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2007, 08:53:21 AM »

I'm confused about what is actually in play in this thread since everything that we say that doesn't relate to what has "officially" been released could be considered gossip. But I will say that from a financial accounting perspective even if he wanted to, Fr. Kondratic could not have pulled off this crime by himself. Anyone who is nieve enough to believe that he acted alone should not be allowed to have a part in this investigation. The breath and amount of money involved in this situation are too great to be perpetrated by one person, there had tp be multiple people colluding on this point.

Is this a definate and true statement of fact?   No

Is it gossip? No

Is it an opinion based on the assembly of available information? Yes

Should it be allowed?  We'll see when it gets moderated

Should I stop doing this line by line questioning? Yes


The line by line thing was to illustrate a point of how OCAnews.org has turned into nothing more than a media outlet to get people in a crazed manner like all media outlets do. They're about the story and keeping people interested, not about actually getting down to the bottom of the case.

-Nick
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« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2007, 09:05:58 AM »

Nickman

So true!
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« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2007, 10:16:09 AM »

If not for OCANEWS the whole scandal would have been swept under the rug and Father Kondratick and his allies would STILL be stealing the donations of the Faithful.  Don't confuse the messenger with the message. OCANEWS would not exist or have to exist if the Central Administration of the OCA and the Holy Synod of Bishops ACTED as if they were Christians who fear God. They lied and stonewalled for YEARS after the scandal first came to light and would still be doing so, if not for the bright light cast upon them by OCANEWS.

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« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2007, 11:52:28 AM »

I don't know but this is what a letter stated that was published today

Effective immediately, the undersigned faithful of St. Paul the Apostle Orthodox Church's Parish Council, Dayton, OH, call upon Your Eminence, and the Diocesan Council, to cut off all funding to the Orthodox Church in America. As a parish we cannot in good conscience nor with any sense of godly stewardship continue to fund the OCA because of the failure of its Synod of Bishops.

I think I also read that somebody is now estimating that as much as $10 million may be missing.

I applaud this action by the faithful of this church, but, at the same time, am wondering if they are actually from here on out going to receive any money from OCA coffers. 
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« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2007, 12:00:09 PM »

No established parish gets any money from the OCA. It is a one way street. Money flows from parish to diocese to OCA HQ. None dribbles back

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« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2007, 12:38:33 PM »

Ah, I see.

Well, then, good on the parishoners of St. Paul's!
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« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2007, 12:51:47 PM »

Ah, I see.

Well, then, good on the parishoners of St. Paul's!

I've worshipped with the people at St. Paul's. (My home parish was the GOA parish in that city, but from time to time I'd drop in there...)

I wish them well, as I wish all my friends in the OCA well. Somehow this difficulty is also a gift from the Spirit, and it will be interesting to observe what fruit will be borne from this debacle.
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« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2007, 01:39:17 PM »

I think I also read that somebody is now estimating that as much as $10 million may be missing.

Highly unlikely, considering that would represent more money than the entire annual budget of the OCA for years and years and years. For whatever reason, people seem to imagine that the OCA is some large, well-funded, well-organized ecclesiastical body. I suppose that way this alleged malfeasance seems more shocking.
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« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2007, 02:35:23 PM »

I think on the subject of gossip and rumor, we have to look at what is being discussed and what people's intentions are.  What troubles me are statements that are clearly about attacking someone personally, have the obvious connotation of false information or most importantly one can discern are from the motivation of seeking to make things worse and not better.

Perhaps it is rumor and gossip for instance for people to try and guess what the total amount stolen is.  I think if people are trying to understand, and they are talking about this and speculating for the purposes of understanding all of this with the intention to actually fix the problem and do what's right - I personally do not have a problem with that.

That's just me.
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« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2007, 02:40:08 PM »

That's just me.

Well, we don't want your common sense and Christian courtesy around here, buddy. Wink
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« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2007, 10:28:07 PM »

The OCA announced that Fr. Kondratick has been suspended.

http://oca.org/News.asp?ID=1214&SID=19
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« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2007, 11:37:19 PM »

sheeeesh....its about time!
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« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2007, 10:47:41 PM »

Archbishop Job removes himself as accusser in the trial of Kondratick.

Here is a link

http://www.ocanews.org/news/ArchbishopWithdraws4.30.07.html
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« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2007, 08:55:09 AM »

What is the current status of all this?  I noticed on OCA News today it says this:

Metropolitan Herman Officially Suspends Special Commission

• Asserts Future Work, If Any, To Be Determined And Directed By Him
• Orders Any Future Reports To Go To Him


That doesn't sound good to me.
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« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2007, 11:37:50 AM »

That doesn't sound good to me.

It shouldn't.  The article from OCA news http://www.ocanews.org/news/HermanSuspendsCommission52107.html
indicates that reports of the commission have been "lost", certain attorneys have been summarily dismissed for voiceing opposition.   This has all the makings of a cover-up.  Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2007, 01:22:29 PM »

To put a hopeful spin on all this, when we get some of the money back, we should invest it in parish rennovations - as in my parish!  We have a dungeon for a social hall - does anyone else go to a 100 year old church with a social hall beneath the nave?  See, it would have light, but there's tall buildings/trees around it now so it's all dark save the electric lights.  OCA thieves, give us some money!
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« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2007, 01:23:21 PM »

It shouldn't.  The article from OCA news http://www.ocanews.org/news/HermanSuspendsCommission52107.html
indicates that reports of the commission have been "lost", certain attorneys have been summarily dismissed for voiceing opposition.   This has all the makings of a cover-up.  Lord have mercy!

It's just mind boggling.  Are people at the parish level in the OCA talking about it anymore?

What's most interesting to me is that the Metropolitan seems to be able to act without reference of his synod of bishops.  I would say he's acting with Papal type power, but I don't think the Pope could get away with what he's doing.

More theory and reality I guess.
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« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2007, 02:23:04 PM »

Quote
It's just mind boggling.  Are people at the parish level in the OCA talking about it anymore?

What's most interesting to me is that the Metropolitan seems to be able to act without reference of his synod of bishops.  I would say he's acting with Papal type power, but I don't think the Pope could get away with what he's doing.

More theory and reality I guess.

I know at my parish we talk about. When it’s just a few of us guys hanging out after church or at our men’s breakfast, our priest really speaks his mind about the scandal and how corrupt some of the hierarchy is. He's pretty close to Archbishop Job, so we constantly hear about what’s happening behind the scenes and it isn't pretty. Our priest during the homily has also brought it up a few times and encourages our parishioners to remain faithful and not to get too discouraged. The Metropolitan is accountable to no one apparently, and should have resigned long ago because he has disgraced his office.
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« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2007, 12:25:52 PM »

Such naysayers on the Metropolitan!  I'm glad I'm out on the Pacific coast, where we're far away from Orthodox ghettos (and sadly lack some of that glorious Christian culture!).
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« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2007, 09:14:24 PM »

Archbishop Job gave a very rousing oratory today after the Kneeling Vespers. He feels that the situation is worse than its ever been, and that it is time for us (the lay people) to take a stand and start to correct the problem. He asks that we do so by Praying for him, giving him strength, and helping to be supportive of his efforts. I believe that when the next Midwest Council Meeting comes up in October there will be alot of questions and some tough stances taken against the National Church on this issue. However, irregardless of all this, I ask everyone to pray for Archbishop Job that the Lord will help him to reveal the correct path on this issue.


-Nick
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« Reply #90 on: May 27, 2007, 11:00:46 PM »

Quote
Archbishop Job gave a very rousing oratory today after the Kneeling Vespers. He feels that the situation is worse than its ever been, and that it is time for us (the lay people) to take a stand and start to correct the problem. He asks that we do so by Praying for him, giving him strength, and helping to be supportive of his efforts. I believe that when the next Midwest Council Meeting comes up in October there will be alot of questions and some tough stances taken against the National Church on this issue. However, irregardless of all this, I ask everyone to pray for Archbishop Job that the Lord will help him to reveal the correct path on this issue.


-Nick

Will do. Looks like this all might be coming to a head within the next 6 months. I hope Archbishop Job has the strength to get through this one bad mess the OCA is currently in. He probably feels that most of the weight is on his shoulders because he's been one of the few who have been outspoken about what's going on. We really need to support him and let him know that everyone is behind him. Hope the OCA can survive this.
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« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2007, 07:07:36 AM »

I know at my parish we talk about. When it’s just a few of us guys hanging out after church or at our men’s breakfast, our priest really speaks his mind about the scandal and how corrupt some of the hierarchy is. He's pretty close to Archbishop Job, so we constantly hear about what’s happening behind the scenes and it isn't pretty.

So, what will happen if the situation in the OCA isn't resolved this October?  Will H.G. Job join the Antiochians? 
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« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2007, 12:55:26 PM »

So, what will happen if the situation in the OCA isn't resolved this October?  Will H.G. Job join the Antiochians? 

He could always make an appeal to the Oecumenical Throne and go under the Russian Exarch in Paris...we'll unify the Church in this country one way or another Grin
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« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2007, 12:59:38 PM »

Quote
So, what will happen if the situation in the OCA isn't resolved this October?  Will H.G. Job join the Antiochians?

Yes, if things get that bad it's a real possibility. I'm sure Archbishop Job would have no problem taking his diocese into the Antiochian Archdiocese if he felt he needed to.
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« Reply #94 on: May 29, 2007, 01:18:07 AM »

Is there any way for OCA bishops to suspend or depose the Metr?

I'm not actually advocating this; just interested in seeing whether or not it's possible...
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« Reply #95 on: May 29, 2007, 01:21:17 AM »

Is there any way for OCA bishops to suspend or depose the Metr?

I'm not actually advocating this; just interested in seeing whether or not it's possible...

Unless they have fundamentally altered the ecclesiology of the Church any synod can depose any Bishiop, even the presiding Bishop, though it's generally not very easy. But look at Jerusalem, they just pulled it off for strictly political reasons, so I guess it can't be too hard.
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« Reply #96 on: May 29, 2007, 02:21:58 AM »

Is there any way for OCA bishops to suspend or depose the Metr?

I'm not actually advocating this; just interested in seeing whether or not it's possible...

How do we know that what we read at ocanews.org is totally accurate?  Much of the site appears very agenda-driven and not very objective at times.
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« Reply #97 on: May 30, 2007, 05:50:16 PM »

How do we know that what we read at ocanews.org is totally accurate?  Much of the site appears very agenda-driven and not very objective at times.

Of course there is an agenda, but they (Mark Stokoe specifically) seem to be one of the few parties interested in disseminating as much information as possible.  His words have power partly because Syosset has been so secretive about their actions and motives.
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« Reply #98 on: May 30, 2007, 09:35:17 PM »

Quote
So, what will happen if the situation in the OCA isn't resolved this October?  Will H.G. Job join the Antiochians?

Yes, if things get that bad it's a real possibility. I'm sure Archbishop Job would have no problem taking his diocese into the Antiochian Archdiocese if he felt he needed to.

Nacho,

Would it create a schism with the Antiochians and the OCA if that happened?Huh I'm like you, I would love to see our whole dioceses become Antiochian, but I wonder if that would cause a schisim in the church??  Does the Archbishop have the perogative to change jurisdictions?? It would be awesome if he did!

I am shaking my head in further disbelief at the Metropolitian. Does this guy not see how utterly corrupt everyone thinks he is?? What is he thinking??
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« Reply #99 on: May 30, 2007, 09:52:22 PM »

You all please have more patience. I think things are going to slowly work out for the OCA. But it will take some time. Gregg Nescott was reinstated back into the Metropolitan Council by Bishop Kirill. Bishop K. basically told Met. Herman that Gregg was elected to the council by his diocese and he sees no reason for the excuse Met. Herman gave for his dismissal. With Gregg back on the council it will be very hard for Met. Herman to continue to silence everyone.
While it would be wonderful to have all of you OCA folks in the Antiochian Archdiocese, remember we do not have a tomos of autocephaly. Self-rule is all we have at this point. When Met. Philip passes on it is very possible that Damascus will try to send someone from the patriarchate who will try to undue all we have accomplished.
What we want to see happen is for the OCA to continue to rid itself of corrupt leaders and their enablers. Then the OCA and the AOCA can continue to merge together under the tomos that the OCA was granted.
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« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2007, 04:50:51 PM »

Update:

http://www.oca.org/News.asp?ID=1258&SID=19
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« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2007, 05:16:18 PM »

I hear a fiddle, and I see Rome burning.
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« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2007, 05:23:10 PM »

I hear a fiddle, and I see Rome burning.

You're not suggesting that Metropolitan Herman is like the Roman Emperor Nero, are you?  Huh
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« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2007, 06:47:55 PM »

Unbelievable
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« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2007, 12:48:08 AM »

Quote
Yes, if things get that bad it's a real possibility. I'm sure Archbishop Job would have no problem taking his diocese into the Antiochian Archdiocese if he felt he needed to.

I find this comment difficult to understand as an Eastern Orthodox Christian.  In Orthodox ecclesiology, a bishop would not have this kind of power.  You are forgetting about "sobornost".  For such a move to happen, a sobor or church council would have to be called and the matter presented to the council. 
If Archbishop Job of the OCA wants to make a personal move himself, he always has that option, but you cannot assume he has the authority to take them members of the eparchy with him or the church property.
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« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2007, 01:50:53 AM »

I find this comment difficult to understand as an Eastern Orthodox Christian.  In Orthodox ecclesiology, a bishop would not have this kind of power.  You are forgetting about "sobornost".  For such a move to happen, a sobor or church council would have to be called and the matter presented to the council. 
If Archbishop Job of the OCA wants to make a personal move himself, he always has that option, but you cannot assume he has the authority to take them members of the eparchy with him or the church property.

He always has the right of an appeal to Constantinople, so if he could gain her support he could effect this move...but such support may not be forthcomming unless additional compromises and benifits to Constantinople could be secured.
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« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2007, 02:01:21 AM »

^^ Sounds very "Papal - like" to say the least.... Roll Eyes 
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« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2007, 03:11:13 AM »

^^ Sounds very "Papal - like" to say the least.... Roll Eyes 
Not to mention the possibly uncanonical interference in the internal affairs of another church's jurisdiction.
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« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2007, 09:31:24 AM »

You're not suggesting that Metropolitan Herman is like the Roman Emperor Nero, are you?  Huh

I'm suggesting those at the top in my estimation have lost touch with reality, and the "city" is burning as a result.

^^ Sounds very "Papal - like" to say the least.... Roll Eyes

Here's the irony.  We know in reality people would ignore Constantinople as they usually do and that the Patriarchate has very little actual power or sway.  It is in reality by all accounts Metropolitan Herman who has been acting with what I would call near Papal power in his handling of this affair.  I'm actually not even sure the Pope could get away with some of these things.

The most interesting thing I've read was a statement that the ROCOR was poised to claim the Russian past of the OCA and the AOA was seizing its American future.
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« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2007, 11:14:45 AM »

^^ Sounds very "Papal - like" to say the least.... Roll Eyes 

I didn't know "Papal - like" meant appealing to a synod as prescribed in the canons!  I've been living a lie all this time. Wink

Not to mention the possibly uncanonical interference in the internal affairs of another church's jurisdiction. 

Em, not quite.  If a bishop has issue with the president of his synod, he has the right to appeal to the Synod of Constantinople (I hope you don't think GiC was saying the EP himself - he would have mentioned it specifically if he did...) as per the canons and tradition of the Church.  And, theoretically, the decision reached by the Synod of Constantinople (which happens to include bishops from outside Turkey - US, Asia, Europe, etc - in case you didn't know) could only be over-turned by an Ecumenical Synod (highest governing body).

The decision would come from the Synod, not the EP, which is what makes it binding.  The EP himself cannot interfere with the internal operation of another diocese without the permission of that bishop.
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« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2007, 01:23:25 PM »

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He always has the right of an appeal to Constantinople, so if he could gain her support he could effect this move...but such support may not be forthcomming unless additional compromises and benifits to Constantinople could be secured.

As I said previously, you are forgetting about "sobornost".  Archbishop Job as an individual has the right to move to the P of C and may or may not be accepted.  But you still seem to think he can take the eparchy, church property and members, clergy on the move.

That is not possible.  His move may or may not create a new "schism" with each priest, church member or parish making thier choices as we saw with Bishop Basil in England.
I doubt the faithful of the OCA want those types of problems. 
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« Reply #111 on: June 14, 2007, 02:23:18 PM »

Property issues would have to be fough state by state at a parish level. In most state who got the property would probably depend how the local courts interpreted the canon law (yes, the secular courts do often consider canon law in these cases, just look at the decisions in the recent cases against the Greek Archdioceses). Though in some states it would be up to the individual parish.
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« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2007, 03:18:36 PM »

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Em, not quite.  If a bishop has issue with the president of his synod, he has the right to appeal to the Synod of Constantinople (I hope you don't think GiC was saying the EP himself - he would have mentioned it specifically if he did...) as per the canons and tradition of the Church.  And, theoretically, the decision reached by the Synod of Constantinople (which happens to include bishops from outside Turkey - US, Asia, Europe, etc - in case you didn't know) could only be over-turned by an Ecumenical Synod (highest governing body).

The decision would come from the Synod, not the EP, which is what makes it binding.  The EP himself cannot interfere with the internal operation of another diocese without the permission of that bishop.

Cleveland, I agree with your assesment.
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« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2007, 03:42:30 PM »

Cleveland, I agree with your assesment.

Thank you.  I suppose there is a lot unsaid about the process, which is why people have issue with the mere statement "appeal to Constantinople."  Often, C'nople will initially reject an appeal if the bishop or priest or layman in question has not exhausted other options (I've heard of this happening when I spoke with a few of the deacons while over there).

And, of course, there are people's natural reactions to mentioning Constantinople or the EP here on OC.net, considering certain posters bring them up more often than others and frequently just to tick people off. Many of the "perogatives" of the EP rest with the Patriarchal Synod (of which he is president) and not with the man or title.

Eh, I don't know if the EP would interfere with the goings-on in the OCA anyway - if a man like Archbishop JOB went to him, he may very well be directed to appeal first to Moscow, since the EP considers the OCA a diocese of that Patriarchate.
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« Reply #114 on: June 14, 2007, 03:51:47 PM »

The most interesting thing I've read was a statement that the ROCOR was poised to claim the Russian past of the OCA and the AOA was seizing its American future. 

Would this be in the best interests of Orthodoxy in this country?  Maybe yes - it would eliminate multiple overlaps of jurisdiction, it would set many of the parishes within a very solid administrative structure (the AOA), and would give the Antiochians the seminary they never had.  Yes, it would mean losing the "golden egg" of Autocephaly, but that's not a permanent condition.  The process would also allow for either a consolidation of over-parish-ed areas (no need to have 2 or 3 parishes of 40-60 families in an area when you could have 1-2 of 60-120 - you get the idea).  It would give the currently well-trained and eager Antiochian priests who have no parishes (at the moment the Antiochians are graduating more seminarians from Vlad's, Tikhon's and HC than they have parishes to employ them in) places to go. 

The only people unaccounted for would be the Romanians and Albanians (is there one more?) who were in the OCA - but they could enter a similar arrangement as the Carpatho-Rus with the EP or Antioch.
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« Reply #115 on: June 14, 2007, 04:11:55 PM »

Having a surplus of priests is an ideal situation because hopefully the Antiochians will send these priests to large parishes as assistants so they can get some hands on pastoral experience under the mentorship of an older priest before they are sent to a parish of their own.

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« Reply #116 on: June 14, 2007, 04:41:07 PM »

But you still seem to think he can take the eparchy, church property and members, clergy on the move.
Most parishes in the OCA are owned in full by the parish, a left over from the days when Bishops sent by Moscow during the communist era were selling off church property in this country. Any Diocese Bishop of the OCA has the power to release any clergy and parishes under his authority to whomever he wishes. There would be no recourse by the central administration of the OCA because in reality Syossot only owns the property of the St. Tikhon's, St. Vladimir's and the headquarters building.
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« Reply #117 on: June 14, 2007, 08:35:07 PM »

What if Archbishop Job released his priests and parishes to go into a different jurisdiction. Would that be legal since he wouldn't be splitting and taking clergy and churches with him?? If a priest and a particular parish wanted to switch jurisdictions could they get the blessing of the bishop to do such a thing??
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« Reply #118 on: June 20, 2007, 05:34:28 PM »

Having a surplus of priests is an ideal situation because hopefully the Antiochians will send these priests to large parishes as assistants so they can get some hands on pastoral experience under the mentorship of an older priest before they are sent to a parish of their own. 

Um, they're surplus priests because none of the large parishes have stepped forward to take on extra priests.  I'd love for them to do that, but it takes foresight, clarity of vision, firm guidance in direction - and a vote of a General Assembly to add a salary to the parish budget.  Even if they have the first 3, most don't do the last 1.

I wish the Archdioceses could send the priests (of course, I also believe that the priests should not get paid by the parish.... but I digress) without waiting for the parishes to wake up.
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« Reply #119 on: June 20, 2007, 06:26:14 PM »

Um, they're surplus priests because none of the large parishes have stepped forward to take on extra priests.  I'd love for them to do that, but it takes foresight, clarity of vision, firm guidance in direction - and a vote of a General Assembly to add a salary to the parish budget.  Even if they have the first 3, most don't do the last 1.

I wish the Archdioceses could send the priests (of course, I also believe that the priests should not get paid by the parish.... but I digress) without waiting for the parishes to wake up.

It would make it a very different dynamic if the priest was paid by the archdiocese if that is what you are suggesting?
I tend to agree with you on that one...when I was a member of the parish council at the ethnic parish I tried to use the archdiocese guidebook for salary and benefits, shame and whatever other psychological tool I could to get the priest a decent salary and family health benefits. At the new parish I am at the priest is compensated adequately. It is hit or miss depending on what parish a priest is assigned and that can lead to other problems which I won't get into here.
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« Reply #120 on: June 20, 2007, 06:51:49 PM »

no one has still answered my question...........
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« Reply #121 on: June 20, 2007, 07:23:22 PM »

no one has still answered my question...........

Maybe since it is hypothetical no one here knows?
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« Reply #122 on: June 21, 2007, 10:39:12 AM »

What if Archbishop Job released his priests and parishes to go into a different jurisdiction. Would that be legal since he wouldn't be splitting and taking clergy and churches with him?? If a priest and a particular parish wanted to switch jurisdictions could they get the blessing of the bishop to do such a thing?? 

Hmmm.  I would guess that the movement of parishes would actually require Synodal approval, as those matters which affect more than the diocese normally are out of the hands of the local bishop.  Since the movement of a parish to another jurisdiction definitely affects the Church at large (less voters for the Met and Metropolitan council, less stewardship going to the National Church, etc.), I figure that both of your questions have the same answer: no, not without synodal approval.
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« Reply #123 on: June 21, 2007, 10:57:36 AM »

The split in Sourozh recently is probably the best example of how this was handled.
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« Reply #124 on: June 24, 2007, 04:35:46 AM »

Quote
he split in Sourozh recently is probably the best example of how this was handled.

A split in Orthodoxy? No, I can't believe it! We aren't like the protestants.
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« Reply #125 on: June 29, 2007, 01:45:47 AM »

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A split in Orthodoxy? No, I can't believe it! We aren't like the protestants.

I'm hoping you meant this tongue in cheek? I very much doubt that someone would be able to find a century, including the first century, where Christianity didn't fracture at least a dozen times. And it's not just a case of "heretics leaving the fold," since there are clearly splits between peoples that are/were both Orthodox or valid in some fashion; for example, the splits over the 3rd and 4th Ecumenical Councils, or the Catholic/Orthodox split.
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« Reply #126 on: July 02, 2007, 01:06:26 AM »

I'm hoping you meant this tongue in cheek? I very much doubt that someone would be able to find a century, including the first century, where Christianity didn't fracture at least a dozen times. And it's not just a case of "heretics leaving the fold," since there are clearly splits between peoples that are/were both Orthodox or valid in some fashion; for example, the splits over the 3rd and 4th Ecumenical Councils, or the Catholic/Orthodox split.


I took his reply as being tongue-in-cheek; I laughed when I read it.
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« Reply #127 on: July 02, 2007, 06:18:55 AM »

Personally, I don't think the current crisis will come to schism.  Part of that, yes, is that I actually believe in the mission of the OCA.  Part of that, however, is the situation itself.  It's a finacial crisis, due to bad management at the top.  So, that management will eventually be replaced -- willingly or unwillingly-- and new managment will take over.  And the new managment will be pro-reform.  That is, if Syosset wants to receive money again from the rank and file.
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« Reply #128 on: July 03, 2007, 03:28:56 PM »

St. John 12:4-6 ...   Jesus knew that Judas Iscariot was taking from the money box. Judas had been doing that for a long time. That is what thiefs do, and the cost of this type of life is great, and we have a good idea of what happened to Judas Iscariot. At the postal facility where I worked as a craft employee, management (supervisors) would leave money on the workroom floor and watch to see if a employee would pick it up and put it in their pocket. Ifso, the employee would be fired.
Also, as another example, as a former police officer, I made many shoplifting arrests by use of video cameras recording the criminal act. My point is that those who have abused their power and trust have been watched and recorded , and it is a matter of time before judgement and punishment.

As for calling (in some cases"demanding")  for changes in the OCA, I think that a person should look deep into their own "backyard" before telling their neighbor what to do. Such as, for those who were offered and accepted high positions in the OCA out of seminary do to political favor and not merit, should examine themselves. And to those who "bailed out" during the time of "financial improprieties" within the OCA,( instead of "bringing to light" the
so called perpetrators and evil acts), should greatly examine themselves.

And if someone is looking for forgiveness and support from the OCA family and repentance from past wrongs and illicit deeds, should not take a position in a well established parish. But rather take a parish position the old-fashion way--- Earn It ! Labor in the fields and harvest the rewards. Do missionary work here in the USA, as they say, "just do it", stop taking, stop talking, start providing. 

Yes, I do believe that the OCA is in need of changes. To many chiefs and not enough indians. To much Bureaucracy, not enough grass-roots action.
Just my first thoughts on the subject.
Thom Ashton  Wink



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« Reply #129 on: July 03, 2007, 03:30:16 PM »

Welcome to OC.net, Thom.
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« Reply #130 on: July 04, 2007, 11:21:09 AM »

Soulsanchor:

Welcome and a very good post I might add.  Wink
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« Reply #131 on: July 06, 2007, 10:45:27 AM »

Greetings To All;
Thank you for your reply's. I wrote this msg. after recently reading a long self-centered notice on OCA.org, http://www.ocanews.org/ (O C Accountability),from a young Fr. John Hopko of how he did not know anything, at anytime, anywhere. My aching foot!

His proclaimed self-righteousness made me ill and to wonder why this man is a priest, is he in for a career or in for the calling. Sofar, I see that he has been treated very well by the OCA because of his last name,(for which he will name-drop on us in a minute), and not of his merit.

My opinion, his kind of pride is part of the problem, nothing to do with the solution. 

Please Forgive Me,
Thom

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« Reply #132 on: July 07, 2007, 12:57:54 AM »

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I see that he has been treated very well by the OCA because of his last name,(for which he will name-drop on us in a minute), and not of his merit.

LOL Cheesy

I did notice he brought up his father and grandfather's name a few times in his article.
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« Reply #133 on: July 07, 2007, 03:05:32 AM »

Greetings To All;
Thank you for your reply's. I wrote this msg. after recently reading a long self-centered notice on OCA.org, (O C Accountability),from a young Fr. John Hopko of how he did not know anything, at anytime, anywhere. My aching foot!

His proclaimed self-righteousness made me ill and to wonder why this man is a priest, is he in for a career or in for the calling. Sofar, I see that he has been treated very well by the OCA because of his last name,(for which he will name-drop on us in a minute), and not of his merit.

My opinion, his kind of pride is part of the problem, nothing to do with the solution. 

Please Forgive Me,
Thom

Thom I tried to find that article on the OCA site but could not ---would you send me PM or post the web address so I may read it.

Thomas
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« Reply #134 on: July 07, 2007, 03:53:35 AM »

Thom

Quote
Please Forgive Me

Only if you apologize to Fr. John first, and then promise to play nice. Wink
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