Author Topic: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"  (Read 2509 times)

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Offline serb1389

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Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« on: March 11, 2007, 09:24:46 PM »
Does anyone have any information as to who the former Catholic "Patriarchs of Constantinople" were and what their function was? 

We just learned in a Church History class that after 1204 there was a Catholic bishop placed in Constantinople and that the title was handed out until Vatican II!! 

I was assured that the title was used until 1948 and then it fell slightly out of use until 1964.

When were the anathema's taken away?  I always forget. 

If anyone has any information concerning this I would appreciate it.  Thanks!   
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2007, 09:47:48 PM »
They were residential Latin bishops while the Latin kingdom lasted, then they were Latin cardinals in the Papal Court, who were also the cardinal archpriests of St. Peter's Basilica.  When you hear St. Peter's being refered to as the Patriarchal Basilica of the Patriarch's of Constantinople this is that which is being referred.  The unionist Greek Bishops Isidore of Kiev and John of Nicea were both given that title, in addition to that of cardianl, in succession, first Isidore, then upon his death, John.

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Offline serb1389

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2007, 11:02:17 PM »
  When you hear St. Peter's being refered to as the Patriarchal Basilica of the Patriarch's of Constantinople this is that which is being referred. 

I've never heard of this.  So if I understand you correctly, the archpriest of the St. Peter's also had the title of Patriarch of Constantinople?  Is this correct? 

Quote
The unionist Greek Bishops Isidore of Kiev and John of Nicea were both given that title, in addition to that of cardianl, in succession, first Isidore, then upon his death, John.

Sorry, i've never heard of these guys.  Are they recent?  What is their context? 
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2007, 12:15:22 AM »
Isidore of Kiev and John of Nicea were the main unionist advocates at the council of Florence and the only Greek bishops not to repudiate the union.  As unionists they could not remain in their sees and took up positions in Rome, although Isidore returned and fought on the walls of Constantinople alongside the Emperor only to escape back to Rome after the taking of the city. He aslo celebrated the last Litrugy the Emperor attended and communed at. 
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2007, 07:35:46 AM »
thanks for the quick history. 

Do you know how the title was used later on? 

Also, was there a particular reason that it was discontinued? 

Not to be cliche but did the RC's just say "hey maybe this is wrong of us to do" or is there more to it? 
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2007, 01:08:43 PM »
It was merely an honorific title after the fall of the Latin Kingdom.  The Orthodox rightly resented this and at Vatican II it was decided to abolish these titles, although a real Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem was reconstituted in the late 1800's and continues to exist as their is an actual flock, although it can be argued he doesn't need to be titled patriarch.
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Offline AMM

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2007, 01:25:54 PM »
I seem to recall reading after the Pope's visit to the Ecumenical Patriarchate that it's possible that there are actually  nearly as many Latin Catholics in Istanbul as there are Greek Orthodox Christians.

History certainly can do odd things.

Offline James2

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2007, 05:25:45 PM »
There was also a Latin Patriarchate of Antioch during the crusading period.  Like Constantinople, it became a titular patriarchate.  It was associated with the Basilica of St. Mary Major and abolished in 1964.  Of course, there are still three Catholic Patriarchs of Antioch (Melkite, Maronite, and Syrian), but they are all Eastern rite.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 05:26:30 PM by James2 »

Offline James2

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2007, 05:31:01 PM »
I just checked and found that there was also a Latin Patriarchate of Alexandria, associated with the Basicila of St. Paul's outside the Walls.  It was abolished in 1964.  There still is a Catholic Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria.  I think that the Catholic Melkite Patriarch of Antioch also is called Patriarch of Alexandria and of Jerusalem.

Offline James2

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 05:33:26 PM »
Isidore of Kiev and John of Nicea were the main unionist advocates at the council of Florence and the only Greek bishops not to repudiate the union.  As unionists they could not remain in their sees and took up positions in Rome, although Isidore returned and fought on the walls of Constantinople alongside the Emperor only to escape back to Rome after the taking of the city. He aslo celebrated the last Litrugy the Emperor attended and communed at. 

Is John of Nicea also known as Bessarion?

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2007, 06:36:04 PM »
Yes.
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Offline nonchal

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2007, 09:27:44 PM »
They were residential Latin bishops while the Latin kingdom lasted, then they were Latin cardinals in the Papal Court, who were also the cardinal archpriests of St. Peter's Basilica.  When you hear St. Peter's being refered to as the Patriarchal Basilica of the Patriarch's of Constantinople this is that which is being referred.  The unionist Greek Bishops Isidore of Kiev and John of Nicea were both given that title, in addition to that of cardianl, in succession, first Isidore, then upon his death, John.

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Deacon, Is this an embarrasment to the Eastern Roman Catholics? How about the fact that a pope made the office of Cardinal higher than that of Patriarch?

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2007, 08:01:19 PM »
It makes little sense to be embarrassed by history, for we cannot change it.  As for cardinal vs patriarch this has been redressed and now patriarchs rank ahead of cardinals, but we Easterners always new that.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 08:03:54 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Former Catholic title of "Patriarch of Constantinople"
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2007, 11:39:26 PM »
Does anyone know if the Latin Patriarch of Constantinople had any kind of special role at the Vatican? 

What about in Constantinople? 
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