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Tamara
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« on: June 28, 2007, 12:31:30 AM »

To me, this is the crux of the matter. We must dialogue about the issue of the homosexual agenda in the public school system. I have friend who's a teacher in the PS's and he's told me of the NEA's agenda. Without being insensitive to homosexuals themselves, how do we go about addressing this issue in a loving manner?

It is quite simple. Education should only about teaching academics. Morality and values training does not belong within the realm of the education system. Leave the value training to parents. Last time I checked we live in a free country and we have a right to raise our children as we see fit. The government has no business parenting our children. I don't think we want to follow in the footsteps of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union and allow our school systems to raise our children.
 
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2007, 07:49:38 AM »

It is quite simple. Education should only about teaching academics. Morality and values training does not belong within the realm of the education system.

So you'd have a society of people who'd shoot each other for misquoting Shakespeare?

Last time I checked we live in a free country...blah blah blah.

I'm sick to death of this phrase. "Free country" does not equal "run the way I think it should be." If that's the best you can come up with to back up your accusations, then you should seriously rethink your position.
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2007, 10:52:11 AM »

So you'd have a society of people who'd shoot each other for misquoting Shakespeare?

I'm sick to death of this phrase. "Free country" does not equal "run the way I think it should be." If that's the best you can come up with to back up your accusations, then you should seriously rethink your position.

It was never the job of public education to take on the parental role. Ethics can be maintained. Lying, cheating, hurting others, etc. can be grounds for punishment by the school. But morality is subjective according to the beliefs of the teacher and has no place in school.

My son's middle school is failing to teach him how to write. I think he wrote five papers all year in his English class. The teachers don't want to spend time editing essays every weekend because its too much work so they limit the number of writing projects they give to the children. Even then, they edit very little. I was informed that the teachers are afraid of destroying the child's 'self-esteem' because according to the head of curriculum,"If a child sees too many corrections and edits to his paper he will not see himself as a writer and give up. We also no longer use a red pen to edit because the color red is associated with death and blood. This could further upset the child."
I was shocked when I heard this blathering hippy-speak used as an excuse by teachers who are just plain lazy.
No, instead of spending time on improving the writing skills (writing scores drop dramatically in our middle schools) of the students they spend 45 minutes each Wednesday in advisory class where they discuss bullying issues, drug and alcohol related issues, sexual issues, and other topics that have traditionally been the realm of parent and church responsibiities.

I attended public school in California when it was only about education and ethical behavior. My parents took care of the other issues in my life. I don't need or want the school interferring or contradicting what I teach my sons at home.

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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2007, 11:22:24 AM »

My son's middle school is failing to teach him how to write. I think he wrote five papers all year in his English class. The teachers don't want to spend time editing essays every weekend because its too much work so they limit the number of writing projects they give to the children. Even then, they edit very little. I was informed that the teachers are afraid of destroying the child's 'self-esteem' because according to the head of curriculum,"If a child sees too many corrections and edits to his paper he will not see himself as a writer and give up. We also no longer use a red pen to edit because the color red is associated with death and blood. This could further upset the child."
I was shocked when I heard this blathering hippy-speak used as an excuse by teachers who are just plain lazy.
No, instead of spending time on improving the writing skills (writing scores drop dramatically in our middle schools) of the students they spend 45 minutes each Wednesday in advisory class where they discuss bullying issues, drug and alcohol related issues, sexual issues, and other topics that have traditionally been the realm of parent and church responsibiities.

That's the sort of response I was hoping for. Thank you. Actually, I agree with you about the blathering hippie-speak. Too many well-meaning teachers drop academia in a misguided attempt to help the child. But, as a wise first-grade teacher I know says, "It isn't going to help his self-esteem when all his friends can read and he can't."

Personally, I don't use blue, black, or red ink in grading, but that's so I know which comments are mine at a glance (how many students buy yellow pens?).
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2007, 11:48:03 AM »

At the request of a poster, this thread has been split off from it's original thread (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9360.0.html) in order that the discussion may continue.
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2007, 12:00:39 PM »

Quote
It was never the job of public education to take on the parental role. Ethics can be maintained. Lying, cheating, hurting others, etc. can be grounds for punishment by the school. But morality is subjective according to the beliefs of the teacher and has no place in school.

You said a mouthful. I don't want to wax political here, but IIRC public education and its control by the state is a key component of the Communist Manifesto for the establishment of socialism. But I don't wish to denigrate our public school system when the ultimate blame rests with parental abandonment of their responsibilities to state control.
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2007, 12:02:30 PM »

At the request of a poster, this thread has been split off from it's original thread (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9360.0.html) in order that the discussion may continue.

And your new FF mod thanks you  Embarrassed
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2007, 12:25:45 PM »

That's the sort of response I was hoping for. Thank you. Actually, I agree with you about the blathering hippie-speak. Too many well-meaning teachers drop academia in a misguided attempt to help the child. But, as a wise first-grade teacher I know says, "It isn't going to help his self-esteem when all his friends can read and he can't."

Personally, I don't use blue, black, or red ink in grading, but that's so I know which comments are mine at a glance (how many students buy yellow pens?).

Please wish me luck because I have joined a group of concerned parents who are going to try to change the philosophy of our small school district in regard to curriculum. We have a new superintendent starting in July so we hope to throw off the old superintendent's 'whole child' philosophy that began our downward academic spiral.
 
There is one positive note to the advisory class my son attends weekly. When he comes home confused by some of the various philosophies being preached to him at school, we have then used the opportunity to discuss with him how to critically analyze facts from propaganda.
ie: A condom allows you to have 'safe sex' (propaganda) vs. there is no such thing as 'safe sex' (fact)

And even though my sons are only thirteen and ten, I have shared with them that if they get a girl pregnant and she keeps the child, they will be legally responsible to financially support their child until he or she is eighteen. They even understand the concept of garnishing wages due to this law. I bet they don't teach those kinds of facts in our school's 'experiment with your sexuality' sex ed class. Angry
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2007, 12:50:42 PM »

You said a mouthful. I don't want to wax political here, but IIRC public education and its control by the state is a key component of the Communist Manifesto for the establishment of socialism. But I don't wish to denigrate our public school system when the ultimate blame rests with parental abandonment of their responsibilities to state control.

Well, if the schools held the parents accountable for the unethical behavior of their child by suspending or expelling students it would then become the parent's problem to deal with their child. Legally, it is within a school's rights to summon the police if a bully refuses to change his behavior and his parents won't deal with it. Consequences for bad behavior are the only way to make the necessary changes.
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2007, 03:13:03 PM »

Well, if the schools held the parents accountable for the unethical behavior of their child by suspending or expelling students it would then become the parent's problem to deal with their child. Legally, it is within a school's rights to summon the police if a bully refuses to change his behavior and his parents won't deal with it. Consequences for bad behavior are the only way to make the necessary changes.

True, true...
IF the local laws allow the parents some leeway in discipline. Nowadays the 'rod' is illegal in many places. What to do? Take away the cellphone, iPod?
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2007, 04:04:58 PM »

True, true...
IF the local laws allow the parents some leeway in discipline. Nowadays the 'rod' is illegal in many places. What to do? Take away the cellphone, iPod?

Sounds good to me.  Isolation often is the best restriction a parent can give---it has greater impact in out fast moving age of computers, cell phones, and instant gratification.

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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2007, 08:14:34 PM »

True, true...
IF the local laws allow the parents some leeway in discipline. Nowadays the 'rod' is illegal in many places. What to do? Take away the cellphone, iPod?

You could also make your child pay for any damages caused by his behavior with his allowance money, Christmas money, or money he might have saved up in a checking account. Irresponsible and destructive behavior usually clears up quickly if it hits the child in his pocket book. You don't have to yell or get out of control. The consequences can be tailored to  fit the crime. You can calmly state that it will cost so much to replace a broken window, pay a doctor bill or purchase paint to cover graffiti.  The child learns multiple lessons from the experience and will more than likely think twice before hurting someone or damaging property in the future.
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2007, 08:51:44 PM »

Not bad. I'd consider a special tour of a local jail if the child is old enough to be impressed. Most sheriff's accommodate these requests.
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2007, 01:31:29 AM »

Not bad. I'd consider a special tour of a local jail if the child is old enough to be impressed. Most sheriff's accommodate these requests.

Oh boy...that is a great idea if all other measures fail! Wink
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2007, 12:03:52 PM »

I don't wish to denigrate our public school system when the ultimate blame rests with parental abandonment of their responsibilities to state control.

You know, with as many choices as there are in education, I don't see the public school system as an abandonment of responsibility at all. I see it as a service. Parents trust teachers to care for and teach their children while they are at school. In this way, teachers are responsible for the children themselves, not just the lessons.

Parents should be concerned about what their children are learning in school, but they should also trust the professionals they are paying to take care of their children for 30 hours a week. Likewise teachers should be concerned for the children's welfare while they are at school, but should realize that the children become the parents' responsibility after they leave the school building. It is a partnership; either side should not make the mistake of wanting to control the other.

If you want to make the argument that school is an "abandonment" of responsibility, then parents abandon their responsibility in far more areas than just education: churches, doctors, media, day cares, even restaurants have a bit of control over what goes into a child. If parents cease to care at all and blindly allow whatever their child wants to consume, then they have abandoned their responsibility. If, however, they take interest and work with these professionals, then we have the village raising the child. This leads to a more well-rounded adult who can work within the greater society.
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2007, 05:57:28 PM »

That's not what I'm saying. Schools, when faced with undisciplined students who have not been educated by their parents (hence abandoned to the public trust), must address the problem. Often in our pluralistic society a common ground in ethics and morality is their only safe choice. There's not much 'common' , so educators cannot win.They will ultimately displease some part of society or employ standards to which some part would object.
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2007, 06:36:22 PM »

It was never the job of public education to take on the parental role. Ethics can be maintained. Lying, cheating, hurting others, etc. can be grounds for punishment by the school.

This is a useful change from your first post where you wrote that the schools should only teach academics.  Our two oldest children had a wonderful Kindergarten teacher who told me that, when the district sent down instructions that the children in her class should have more reading teaching at the expense of other classes and work (and btw she used phonics and word recognition), one of the important things that children learn in Kindergarten is how to cooperate, work and learn in a classroom situation/ a group.  Things like "wait your turn", "Don't bop the child next to you because you want that crayon", "listen to the teacher", and things that add up to don't lie, cheat and so forth. 

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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2007, 07:26:35 PM »

This is a useful change from your first post where you wrote that the schools should only teach academics.  Our two oldest children had a wonderful Kindergarten teacher who told me that, when the district sent down instructions that the children in her class should have more reading teaching at the expense of other classes and work (and btw she used phonics and word recognition), one of the important things that children learn in Kindergarten is how to cooperate, work and learn in a classroom situation/ a group.  Things like "wait your turn", "Don't bop the child next to you because you want that crayon", "listen to the teacher", and things that add up to don't lie, cheat and so forth. 

Ebor

Well, I was thinking ethics, I should have included it the first time...my mistake.  I don't think any parent, regardless of culture or faith, would argue with a teacher who will discipline for bad behavior (lying, cheating, hitting, uncooperativeness, etc.). Anyway, in my experience, there are alot of educators who believe it is also their role to teach morality. Morality, however, is another issue because beliefs about it differ by culture and religion or lack of religion. Educators have no business promoting their morality code on students who come from diverse backgrounds. So when a middle school biology teacher is teaching sex ed and tells a student he or she should sexually experiment with members of both genders to discover their sexual identity, that teacher has stepped over the boundries and interferred with the belief system of the student and his family. It is happening in our school district.
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« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2007, 08:48:36 AM »

I quite agree on the "experiment with others" being unacceptable. Yikes! 

I would say though that for me such things as lying and cheating are part of morals.  It was brought up in another thread (that at the moment I can't recall) that "Morality" is more then just matters of a sexual nature.  Now it has me wondering as to the difference/definition between morals and ethics.

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« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2007, 10:04:56 AM »

It is quite simple. Education should only about teaching academics. Morality and values training does not belong within the realm of the education system. Leave the value training to parents. Last time I checked we live in a free country and we have a right to raise our children as we see fit. The government has no business parenting our children. I don't think we want to follow in the footsteps of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union and allow our school systems to raise our children.

Correct. If one has state schools at all they should stick to academics and lowest-common-denominator morals/good citizenship (you're free to do what you want as long as you don't harm others: 'don't beat up homosexuals') - leave the rest (like whether homosexual sex is a sin or not) to families and religions.
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2007, 11:09:46 AM »

Correct. If one has state schools at all they should stick to academics and lowest-common-denominator morals/good citizenship (you're free to do what you want as long as you don't harm others: 'don't beat up homosexuals') - leave the rest (like whether homosexual sex is a sin or not) to families and religions.

If only the California Education System were in agreement on this issue. It is quite ironic that the schools will educate children to eat healthy foods, avoid drinking and driving, avoid cigarettes and drugs of all kinds but when it comes to sexual behavior there are no restrictions based on keeping a child healthy. For example: the chances of acquiring a STD rise significantly when you have mulitple sexual partners. Many STD's have serious health consequences (ie: HPV is the cause of cervical cancer and the only way you can get it is by having sexual relations. Or the health consequences of Chlamydia if left untreated (most are untreated because the disease usually has no symptoms),  can cause pelvic inflammatory disease (PID), ectopic pregnancy, and infertility.) Chlamydia rates have shot through the roof over the last 30 years. No, in our school district, we have teachers encouraging 8th graders to have multiple sex partners as if we are still living in the summer of love but it doesn't surprise me because most of those who run the California education department are from that era. They don't want to admit their grand experiment of sexual freedom is a deadly failure. The arrogance and immorality of the hippy generation lives on.
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2007, 03:34:07 PM »

Correct. If one has state schools at all they should stick to academics and lowest-common-denominator morals/good citizenship (you're free to do what you want as long as you don't harm others: 'don't beat up homosexuals') - leave the rest (like whether homosexual sex is a sin or not) to families and religions.

That's a good compromise; never, so long as adults are dealing directly with children, will they be able to leave morality out completely. I don't know what things are like in California, but in Missouri most teachers are of this opinion. Encourage tolerance, but don't preach. That has nothing to do with education and will not help the children become responsible adults.
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2007, 04:08:33 PM »

I'll buy the compromise. Now, how do we implement it?
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