Author Topic: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone  (Read 21503 times)

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Offline TinaG

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Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« on: March 05, 2007, 02:46:10 PM »
I thought I'd seen everything under the sun in whacko icons, but here's a good one.  And I think I'll just leave it at that.  Though a deacon at church told me he'd seen someone advertising icons painted of your departed pets.  St. Coco of Carpeta Urinatus (patron saint of teacup poodles of course).


http://www.dormitionskete.org/DsWebStore/product_info.php?products_id=435
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2007, 03:15:16 PM »
I thought someone posted this recently as a legit icon, but maybe not or this is another version.

Looking at the source and description (the website), I think I can understand:  is from ROAC if I'm not mistaken.  Doesn't surprise me.

Offline Ebor

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2007, 03:46:53 PM »
Ah this one.   ::)  I've read that it is a re-working and updating of an earlier icon that did not have such things as "New Age"  or the historical anachronism of Martin Luther with a rifle.

Well, Elisha, Dormition Skete (DS) *used* to be ROAC, but now it is separated and is the domain of Gregory of Colorado.  He split from ROAC not quite 3 years ago iirc.  It was in the summer.  So this icon is from Gregory's mindset it seems likely.

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Offline observer

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2007, 04:34:34 PM »
I don't think it is wacko.  This 'icon' has been around in a different format for 20 years.  I think it was first produced in Bulgaria - I have a copy framed which for me is a reminder of the Church in the midst of worldly heresies.  I don't venerate it and my copy is more detailed than that produced by the Colorado Beetle.  The only person missing is Clinton and his NATO buddies dropping bombs on school children in Serbia during Pascha.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2007, 05:11:50 PM »
I've also seen the icon sans "new age" and Athenagoras.  It specifically depicted Pope Leo as the Pope, as well as Luther (minus rifle).
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2007, 05:19:30 PM »
I wish the "enlargement" link actually worked.  I'm curious to see these depictions.

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Offline AMM

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2007, 05:30:06 PM »
Where's the depiction of the guy who figured out how to make a bag of pretzels or chips only a quarter full and still sell it to you as if was full to the top?

Offline Simayan

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2007, 05:33:00 PM »
Ecumenism doesn't necessarily mean accepting of all religions as they are, but merely to unite them. Which is, after all, our goal, so long as they become Orthodox. Not to mention he implies that Jews and Christians worship different Gods. They may not accept Jesus, but I have no doubt they are worshiping the Father.

And masonry isn't a religion, no matter how hard people want it to be a secret cult that runs our country and anoints kings. 

The guy who wrote that description seems a bit off his meds.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 05:35:32 PM by Simayan »
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2007, 06:15:18 PM »
It'd be nice if some people here showed more respect to an icon that is based off a 17th century prototype and is perfectly Orthodox as far as I can tell, as heretics do indeed attack the Church by their heresies (and sometimes by physically killing Orthodox monks, lay people, and clergy), but yet Christ, the Theotokos, the Apostles and the Bishops guide the Church with the Truth of Her teachings, and thus the Church continues to "sail", and is not able to be "sunk".  There is an older version of this icon that I have seen too, but for some reason I can't post it here :(, the forum isn't letting me.

Given that YHWH/the Logos/Jesus was the person of the Trinity who appeared to the Old Testament patriarchs, how can one say that modern day Jews are worshipping the Father?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 06:55:32 PM by drewmeister2 »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2007, 07:51:55 PM »
It'd be nice if some people here showed more respect to an icon that is based off a 17th century prototype and is perfectly Orthodox as far as I can tell
The problem that I have with such depictions is that it doesn't fully convey a spiritual truth, because 
a) it demonizes people, and
b) it seems to express a belief in dualism- i.e, that the battle between Good and Evil is somehow evenly pitched and could go either way.

 I think it would be better if it showed the Ark of the Church triumphing over demons trying to attack her and the personification of Hades, in accordance with Christ's promise in the Gospel.

And being based on a 17th century prototype is no guarantee of Orthodox Iconography. There are 17th century Icons depicting St. Christopher with the head of a dog:

   
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 08:07:59 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2007, 08:20:38 PM »
I can see what you mean, it can get out of control to demonize people, but heretics do attack the Church, and sometimes this is important to show the victory of Orthodoxy over heretics.  This is another icon that might be considered as demonizing by some, but I think it is a good icon:   This is an icon of Zografou Monastery on Athos when the Latins attacked the Monastery and the faithful fathers of the monastery were killed.

My point about the 17th century thing was to show that this icon didn't just pop up all of the sudden with Gregory, but the idea of it has been around for some time. 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 08:23:11 PM by drewmeister2 »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2007, 08:58:58 PM »
This is another icon that might be considered as demonizing by some
Actually, I don't consider the Icon of the Athonite Martyrs to be demonizing anyone, since it is recording  actual historical events, and it follows the rules of Orthodox Iconography, in that the only difference between the Martyrs and their executioners is that the former have haloes. The Martyrs and the Soldiers are depicted as just as human as each other. This Icon does not depict an allegorical attack but a real one. (By the way, it wasn't the Latins who attacked the monks, but rather the Soldiers of the Byzantine Emperor.)
The Icon of the Ark of the Church, on the other hand, uses real, recognisable people as "allegories" (i.e. robs them of their humanity). Lenin is not Lenin in the Icon, but the personification of Communism, yet he is still recognisable as Lenin.
The fact that this is a political poster rather than an Icon is evident from Dormition Skete's own description of it:
Quote
"Next to him is Lenin, with his Russian pistol carefully aimed at the heart of Christ. He tried to destroy the Russian Church by putting his own KGB agents as bishops. He killed Patriarch Tikhon, who was the heart of the Russian Church, but failed to understand that the Church is not centered around one person. The Church went into the catacombs and lived. One of the bishops of the Catacomb Church was one of the three consecrating bishops who ordained our Archbishop Gregory."
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2007, 10:51:48 PM »
Quote
Next above him is the "Orthodox" Patriarch of Constantinople, Athenagoras, the father of modern day Ecumenism. He also has a hooked rod, trying to redirect the path of the Church. He was a 32 degree Mason, and behind him is the demon of Masonry, who has around his waist the apron which Masons wear with the square and compass and the letter G in the middle. Masons embrace all peoples and faiths into their religion. Ecumenism accepts all religions with a desire to create a one world religion. An Orthodox bishop cannot accept Ecumenism. It is the heresy of all heresies. Because these "Orthodox" bishops accepted the false belief of all religions, not only heretical Christianity, but also Judaism and Islam, saying that "we all worship the same god", just as Masonry tries to do, they are not Orthodox, and in fact fight against the Church.

This is clearly an old calendarist Icon. Very judgemental I must say. Not Orthodox by my standard.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2007, 10:56:47 PM »
I wish the "enlargement" link actually worked.  I'm curious to see these depictions.




Yeah, it is frustrating, especially when your eyes are as bad as mine.  Is there anyone here who knows how to enlarge it?  I'm particularly interested in seeing the evil monophysites with the pointy hats.    :)

(For those who don't know, Eutyches is condemned by the Oriental Orthodox.  I assume that is who the site is referring to as "Eftyches.")
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 11:00:21 PM by Salpy »

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2007, 08:49:56 AM »
I've seen neo-Coptic icons which depict a trampled Arius and a cowering Nestorius before Sts. Athanasius and Cyril, respectively. I'm not sure whether such depictions existed in antiquity.

Quote
Yeah, it is frustrating, especially when your eyes are as bad as mine.  Is there anyone here who knows how to enlarge it?  I'm particularly interested in seeing the evil monophysites with the pointy hats.


I, too, wish the icon had an enlargment function. I seriously want to see who this Eftyches fellow is (the one who apparantly refused to accept the decisions of two councils almost 100 years apart--he must've been ancient!), not to mention this mownofeezyte demon! I also honestly never knew we Coptic mownofeezytes wore pointy hats, "till this day", either; I was so sure that that was only the practice of you Armenian heretics. We, and our demons, have much more class and style than that!
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2007, 10:03:09 AM »
The first time I ever saw an icon of St Christopher the dog-faced, I realized that it was a representation of an adult with an unrepaired harelip.  I noted as I read about the icon that he came from a village of "dog-faced" people.  The reality was more probable that the village was a group of people who genetically had hare-lips and they had managed to find a way to feed the babies early on so they could survive the harelip at a time that most hare lip babies died from malnourishment. The acceptance of  the dog-faced people is indicative of the inclusiveness of the Church for all people.

As to the Ship Icon, I have seen versions of it in Slavic Monasteries where it is quite  popular.  The use of the gun with Luther had more to do with the  Lutheran Swedes invasion of Poland, Russia , Eastern Europe,etc and their use of guns during that invasion.  Luther is representative of that grouping seeking to destroy the Orthodox Church by military force.  The icon will also include a Pope of Rome usually holding some form of spear or other weapon, some Orthodox or Eastern Catholic Bishops (I was never sure but realized that it was people in authority who were  actually enemies of the faithful),and a moslem turk or caliph firing an arrow from a bow. The great whore of Babylon from Revelations is there as well as the false prophet and the Beast of Revelations, the open mouthed leviathan representing hell is usually behind all of these figures waiting to gobble them and any who fall from the ship as a result of their efforts.  On the ship will be Christ, the Theotokos,some of the Apostles, and a grouping of saints including the three Theologians, the patronal saint of the monastery, and popular national saints of the Orthodox Church.  All in all, it is an Icon that tells a story of those who seek the safety of the Ship of Orthodoxy and those who seek to destroy it.

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Offline Simayan

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2007, 03:59:23 PM »
To show the worst heretics, one can merely depict an Orthodox clergy/layman making divisions between himself and others, separating the righteous from the unrighteous. Not only is he judging on his own accord, which on God can do, but he is doing it within the Church.


Therefore, the 'faithful' who deem others as unworthy commit the greatest sin of all.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2007, 10:41:30 PM »
I also honestly never knew we Coptic mownofeezytes wore pointy hats, "till this day", either; I was so sure that that was only the practice of you Armenian heretics. We, and our demons, have much more class and style than that!

Hey don't you know that pointy heretical hats are better than rounded heretical hats?  Of course both are better than the flat heretical hats worn by the diophysites.  Those are just not fashionable.

 ;D

Offline Ebor

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2007, 11:25:28 AM »
that produced by the Colorado Beetle. 

"Beetle" ??  That's a new on on me.

As OzGeorge pointed out, this seems to be a DS political/personal statement.

Ebor

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Offline augustin717

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2007, 12:22:29 PM »
Quote
'm particularly interested in seeing the evil monophysites with the pointy hats.    Smiley
Here you have an icon of the Last Judjement dating back to the 16th century from the Voronet monastery (Moldova, Romania), where the Latins, the Jews, the Turks, the Armenians and the Germans are shown on their way to hell (represented as a river of fire). It might be a bit difficult to distinguish  between all of them, because of the relatively poor quality of the photos (second upper row):
http://www.eol-reisen.de/images/13_voronet_innen_tiemann_l.jpg
http://www.visit-romania.ro/sectiuni/gf/romania/bucovina/Bucovina/Voronet/Voronet%202004%20088.jpg
http://www.visit-romania.ro/sectiuni/gf/romania/bucovina/Bucovina/Voronet/Voronet%202003%20018.jpg
http://www.visit-romania.ro/sectiuni/gf/romania/bucovina/Bucovina/Voronet/Voronet%202004%20088.jpg
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 12:23:22 PM by augustin717 »

Offline Anastasios

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2007, 01:02:38 PM »
To show the worst heretics, one can merely depict an Orthodox clergy/layman making divisions between himself and others, separating the righteous from the unrighteous. Not only is he judging on his own accord, which on God can do, but he is doing it within the Church.


Therefore, the 'faithful' who deem others as unworthy commit the greatest sin of all.

Deeming someone unworthy/judging them: sinful.
Refraining from communion with heretics/separating from the believer who flaunts the church's commandments: commanded from St Paul through the Fathers until today.

I think that these icons are part of the tradition of the Church based on historical examples pointed out; the real problem is how people respond to them. Do we look at these heretics and think "how can I keep from becoming a heretic?" or do we get full of pride and think "I am ORTHODOX. I belong to the TRUE faith! Look at those STUPID heretics!"  If that's the case, we missed the point.

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« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 01:17:15 PM by Anastasios »
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Offline Keble

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2007, 05:47:24 PM »
(wicked)
Where's the picture of Gregory of Buena Vista trying to saw the boat in half?
(/wicked)

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2007, 09:45:43 PM »
Here you have an icon of the Last Judjement dating back to the 16th century from the Voronet monastery (Moldova, Romania), where the Latins, the Jews, the Turks, the Armenians and the Germans are shown on their way to hell (represented as a river of fire).
Then who is the figure with the halo standing in front of them and who is looking at them holding a scroll and pointing to Christ? It seems to me that they are being called to repentance, and having something explained to them. Could this be Elijah or Enoch who is to come and preach repentance before the end? I personally think we Orthodox will be in for a big surprise on Judgement day when, in accordance with Christ's prophetic parable, workers will be hired at the eleventh hour and receive the same reward as Orthodox Christians who were faithful throughout their lives.

“So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the labourers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’  And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.  And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 10:17:20 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline TinaG

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2007, 10:52:12 PM »
I'm sure I'm going out on a limb here, so have a go (but don't saw the limb out from under me).  So many icons are shown with what has been characterized as one form of judgmentalism or another.  I can certainly understand the generic icons of the righteous separated from the unrighteous, but writing an icon with specific historical or contemporary figures does seem to be crossing the line from religious to secular.  Almost like a bad political campaign ad.  I also see a pattern of always holding up centuries old icons as patterns of what is acceptable.  Just because something is old and preserved on an ancient church wall doesn't necessarily make it the best example.  Antiquity doesn't confer legitimacy. 
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2007, 11:04:35 PM »
Deeming someone unworthy/judging them: sinful.
Refraining from communion with heretics/separating from the believer who flaunts the church's commandments: commanded from St Paul through the Fathers until today.

I think that these icons are part of the tradition of the Church based on historical examples pointed out; the real problem is how people respond to them. Do we look at these heretics and think "how can I keep from becoming a heretic?" or do we get full of pride and think "I am ORTHODOX. I belong to the TRUE faith! Look at those STUPID heretics!"  If that's the case, we missed the point.

Anstasios

I think it's a little to soon to depict Patriarch of Constantinople, Athenagoras as a heretic. There is nothing heretical about wanting people of other faiths to come to the truth and be saved. In fact its very noble. One can even go as far as calling him a martar for the faith. If the truth is really the truth it will stand up to anything that is thrown at it. I don't believe we have a right to judge. Specially when the fruit of age isn't over yet.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2007, 12:09:43 AM »
I think it's a little to soon to depict Patriarch of Constantinople, Athenagoras as a heretic. There is nothing heretical about wanting people of other faiths to come to the truth and be saved. In fact its very noble. One can even go as far as calling him a martar for the faith. If the truth is really the truth it will stand up to anything that is thrown at it. I don't believe we have a right to judge. Specially when the fruit of age isn't over yet.

I don't know why you are quoting my paragraph in order to talk about Patriarch Athenagoras. I did not say I thought Gregory's icon discussed here was ok, but simply that the style is historically based, and not one of Gregory's invention, of depicting heretics in icons.  You are right, Patriarch Athenagoras is not anathematized by a Synod so it is a bit premature to be putting him in icons depicting condemned heretics.

I think there are some problems with the other things you wrote, in that IF Patriarch Athenagoras were a heretic, we would be OBLIGED to judge his faith as heretical and refrain from commmunion with him--this is not "judgmental" but commanded by St Paul and the Fathers. It would not matter that he was sincere--so was Nestorius.  However, this is beyond the scope of this thread because I am not arguing here that he was a heretic. I have my opinions on what he did, but I did not say anything about him, so I would appreciate if you would edit my statement out of the quote that you then reply to, because it gives the impression that I was condemning Patriarch Athenagoras here, which I was not.

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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2007, 05:59:03 AM »
Here you have an icon of the Last Judjement dating back to the 16th century from the Voronet monastery (Moldova, Romania), where the Latins, the Jews, the Turks, the Armenians and the Germans are shown on their way to hell (represented as a river of fire). It might be a bit difficult to distinguish  between all of them, because of the relatively poor quality of the photos (second upper row):
http://www.eol-reisen.de/images/13_voronet_innen_tiemann_l.jpg
http://www.visit-romania.ro/sectiuni/gf/romania/bucovina/Bucovina/Voronet/Voronet%202004%20088.jpg
http://www.visit-romania.ro/sectiuni/gf/romania/bucovina/Bucovina/Voronet/Voronet%202003%20018.jpg
http://www.visit-romania.ro/sectiuni/gf/romania/bucovina/Bucovina/Voronet/Voronet%202004%20088.jpg

I'd also point out that the frescos on the Painted Monasteries were commissioned by rulers of Moldova who were under Turkish suzerainty and, as such, were not at all averse to using monastery buildings as a way of reinforcing political views. At Sucevita, for instance, they have fresco of the Ladder where everyone falling off on the way up is wearing a turban - clearly they are meant to be Turks. Givenm the patronage of churches and monasteries by noblemen and rulers, I find it hardly surprising to find that there is a little politics mixed in with the religion especially when, as is the case with the exterior frescos on the painted monasteries, they were designed as pedagogical tools for illiterate peasants. Of course the ruler is going to try and make them se things his way if he can get away with it.

Sometimes I think we westerners have got so used to the modern idea of separation of church and state that we assume this should be the norm when it is actually nothing of the kind and tend to find fault with those who didn't hold to such ideas in the past. I don't see anything to fault, we just need to use a bit of God given good judgement when viewing such things.

James
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2007, 09:58:34 AM »
I don't know why you are quoting my paragraph in order to talk about Patriarch Athenagoras. I did not say I thought Gregory's icon discussed here was ok, but simply that the style is historically based, and not one of Gregory's invention, of depicting heretics in icons.  You are right, Patriarch Athenagoras is not anathematized by a Synod so it is a bit premature to be putting him in icons depicting condemned heretics.

I think there are some problems with the other things you wrote, in that IF Patriarch Athenagoras were a heretic, we would be OBLIGED to judge his faith as heretical and refrain from commmunion with him--this is not "judgmental" but commanded by St Paul and the Fathers. It would not matter that he was sincere--so was Nestorius.  However, this is beyond the scope of this thread because I am not arguing here that he was a heretic. I have my opinions on what he did, but I did not say anything about him, so I would appreciate if you would edit my statement out of the quote that you then reply to, because it gives the impression that I was condemning Patriarch Athenagoras here, which I was not.

Anastasios

I didn't mean to offened you. If I did I appologize sincerly. I agree with your statement fully regarding heretics. What I put emphesis on is the depiction of someone who shouldn't be depicted as a heretic if he in fact isn't. Many new comers to Orthodoxy may get the wrong impression. As far as some so called Orthodox who view him as such. I feel pity for them. All we have to do is look at some quotes from the Philokalia and Desert fathers to come to this conclusion.

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Everyone judges about others according to one’s own character… Say, someone happened to stand in night and three men are passing by him. The first of them, seen him, thinks: he is waiting for someone to commit fornication; the other thinks: he must be a thief; the third one: he arranged to go to pray with someone and is waiting for him.

I no longer have the ability to modify my post. If one of the mods or yourself would like to do so it would be fine with me.


« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 01:14:28 PM by Demetrios G. »
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2007, 12:59:07 PM »
Demetrios,

Thanks for your response.  I actually will keep everything up because I think some important points were raised in our discussion and it's clear that this was a misunderstanding and nothing more.

In Christ,

Anastasios
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Offline Kyrie Eleison

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2007, 11:04:44 PM »
(wicked)
Where's the picture of Gregory of Buena Vista trying to saw the boat in half?
(/wicked)


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Offline Linichka

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2007, 01:56:58 PM »
Thanks indeed for the laugh!  I had to go to the Web site to read the full description of this icon and look at its thumbnail print.     Appalling.

Offline holdencaulfield

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2009, 09:28:23 PM »
That's an interesting Icon. I would have liked to have seen a larger picture of it however. But I do have to disagree with it as well. Now, granted what they said about heretics in the description is correct, it does seem to be portraying a rather negative image as opposed to one positive. It seems to be as if the creators were truly malicious and violent against heretics, which is not proper, and instead of creating something to create scorn and hate they should just keep the one as the boat and maybe have demons or something like someone earlier had mentioned. Oh well.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2009, 12:02:00 AM »
Is this big enough?


Offline Salpy

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2009, 01:07:43 AM »
The pointy hat on the pointy hatted heretic isn't pointy enough.   :)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 01:08:14 AM by Salpy »

Offline antiderivative

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2009, 01:21:44 AM »
Martin Luther didn't have much to do with the Orthodox Church, although I wouldn't support him. He did however have some very interesting things to say about the Orthodox Church. It looks like he's wearing a cowboy hat in this icon.

Who's the bishop on the far right just above Athenegras (He's poking the bishop wearing blue in the boat)? And what's with the guy shooting arrows out of whales mouth? All I can think of is Jonah.  ???
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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2009, 02:07:44 AM »
Quote
Next above him is the "Orthodox" Patriarch of Constantinople, Athenagoras, the father of modern day Ecumenism. He also has a hooked rod, trying to redirect the path of the Church. He was a 32 degree Mason, and behind him is the demon of Masonry, who has around his waist the apron which Masons wear with the square and compass and the letter G in the middle. Masons embrace all peoples and faiths into their religion. Ecumenism accepts all religions with a desire to create a one world religion. An Orthodox bishop cannot accept Ecumenism. It is the heresy of all heresies. Because these "Orthodox" bishops accepted the false belief of all religions, not only heretical Christianity, but also Judaism and Islam, saying that "we all worship the same god", just as Masonry tries to do, they are not Orthodox, and in fact fight against the Church.

This is clearly an old calendarist Icon. Very judgemental I must say. Not Orthodox by my standard.

Which is, as you said, "Very judgemental I must say". But is it even possible to judge someone or something as judgmental without being judgmental ourselves?
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2009, 11:17:43 AM »
It's big enough to see, Alveus, but it's not the same one that's on the DS site.  That one has some other figures including Lenin and "New Age"

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Offline LBK

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2009, 07:07:34 PM »
No, that icon should not be venerated. It is simply a polemical propaganda piece, promoting a particular ecclesiopolitical ideology. Some food for thought:

Iconography is, above all else, concerned with the revelation of God in Trinity: of the incarnation of the Son and Word of God which has allowed the sanctification of fallen creation (matter), including humanity (made in the image of God)**; of the signs and wonders of the Divine revelation in both the Old and New Testament periods; and, in its portrayal of the saints, their transfiguration from mere men and women into those who have attained deification, a "oneness with God" and full participation of the heavenly life with God and in God, through the conduct of their earthly lives and their steadfast witness to the true faith. They have become true icons and reflections of the Divine. The word godly is most apt to describe them.

(** St John of Damascus sums this up beautifully: "Of old, the incorporeal and uncircumscribed God was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease to venerate the matter through which my salvation has been effected.")

Secondly, in the same way that the saints have obliterated their passions to give themselves completely to God, icons must also reflect this dispassionate quality. Obvious displays of human emotions, even a “positive” one such as laughter, are considered to be manifestations of human passion, and therefore have no place in iconography. Christ’s kingdom is “not of this world” (John 18: 36), therefore the portrayal of saints in their spiritually transformed state must be dispassionate. This also applies to church singing and reading; the singers and readers are there to glorify God and serve the church by their efforts, not to self-aggrandise. Even the display of sorrow in the face of a saint or the Mother of God should be kept subtle, with the emotion conveyed with the eyes, not through histrionics.

Thirdly, there must be complete agreement between scripture, liturgical content (which represents the distillation of the doctrinal, dogmatic and theological position of the Church), and the pictorial content of an icon for any icon to be deemed canonical.

Hence there is no place for ugliness, anger, enmity, and other negative emotions in iconography. The purpose of an icon is to draw us closer to God. Of course, there are specific examples of didactic icons, such as Last Judgement and Ladder of Divine Ascent which feature fearsome dragon-like creatures swallowing unrepentant evildoers. The Resurrection icon shows the personification of sin and death bound in chains in the abyss. It may be said, therefore, if there is room for such portrayals in these canonical icons, then why object to the presence of the figures in the Ark of Salvation image?

I offer this reply: An icon is a material, tangible expression of the incarnate God. The iconographic portrayal of the saints as icons of Christ, then, should reflect the sanctity, dispassion and boundless compassionate mercy of Christ to those who repent of their sins. Do we not pray to the saints and the Mother of God to intercede on our behalf? Are we not exhorted to pray for our enemies, to love them, and not to hate them? Of all scripture passages on this theme, Matt. 5: 43-48 is perhaps the most useful and succinct:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

We are also assured that God is Love, and that His love and mercy are available to all who seek Him in true faith. There are petitions in various Orthodox litanies which ask for the repentance and return to the true faith of sinners, apostates, and, yes, enemies. One which immediately comes to mind is "Let us pray for those who love us, and those who hate us", a petition in the litany sung towards the end of the Great Compline services of Great Lent where the Canon of St Andrew of Crete is sung.

There is the question of the iconographic portrayal of prophets and saints who denounced kings and princes. Such scenes are found in the smaller panels of a "life" icon of a saint or prophet (an icon which has a large central panel of the saint or prophet, surrounded by a series of smaller panels showing scenes of his or her life). Keeping to the dispassionate nature of icons, these scenes of rebuke of kings and princes (such as in icons of Prophet Elijah, and any number of OT and NT saints and righteous ones) show the saint standing before the errant ruler with a hand raised in rebuke, but nothing more. It is also significant that such scenes, almost without exception, are never used as icons in their own right.

it is not surprising that certain schismatic groups have favoured this so-called Ark of Salvation image as it reflects their particular ideology. This image suggests that those who are not Orthodox are somehow beyond repentance and redemption. Can we really agree with this as Orthodox Christians? The persecuting Pharisee Saul openly boasted of his zeal and success in persecuting Christians, yet, by the grace of God, became one of the Princes of the Apostles, a pillar of Orthodoxy. There are also innumerable converts to the Orthodox faith who have come from every religious background imaginable, including atheism, paganism and communism; many who have become saints, in times of old, and in our present day. The grace of God knows no bounds.

Iconography, as I have said before, must never be used for political or ideological purposes. To portray the non-Orthodox as a whole as being irredeemable and in league with demonic and evil forces to destroy Orthodoxy is a shameful debasement of iconography. I am reminded of a reply to a convert to Orthodoxy as to how he came to the conclusion that the Orthodox faith was the true faith: "The Soviet Union was capable of destroying anything. Yet, despite its immense power and resources, it could not destroy the Orthodox Church. So that was good enough for me." The gates of hell cannot prevail, indeed ...
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Offline stashko

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2009, 11:46:50 AM »
Is this big enough?



That's one magnificent  ikona,i like it very much....
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Offline Mark of Ephesus

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2009, 10:01:17 AM »
Ecumenism doesn't necessarily mean accepting of all religions as they are, but merely to unite them. Which is, after all, our goal, so long as they become Orthodox. Not to mention he implies that Jews and Christians worship different Gods. They may not accept Jesus, but I have no doubt they are worshiping the Father.

And masonry isn't a religion, no matter how hard people want it to be a secret cult that runs our country and anoints kings. 

The guy who wrote that description seems a bit off his meds.


I would say that Masonry is heretical at the very least........
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2009, 09:20:14 PM »
Who's the bishop on the far right just above Athenegras (He's poking the bishop wearing blue in the boat)? And what's with the guy shooting arrows out of whales mouth? All I can think of is Jonah.  ???

The guy in the mouth of the beast represents Muhammad and Islam.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 09:24:52 PM by Andrew21091 »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2009, 09:40:17 PM »
Is Luther carrying a shotgun?
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2009, 09:45:13 PM »
Is Luther carrying a shotgun?

Maybe an arquebus/musket?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 09:46:52 PM by Nebelpfade »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2009, 09:49:05 PM »
Quote
Next to him is Eftyches, the heresiarch who would not accept the decision of the 4th and 5th Ecumenical Councils that Christ has two natures: Christ is both perfect God and perfect man. Eftyches divided the Church with his followers who believed that Christ had only one nature. Therefore, he is depicted with a pointed cowl on his head, which is what the Monophysites wear to this day. Monophysites include the Copts of Egypt, and the Armenians, who are located around Palestine. Behind Eftyches is depicted the demon of the Monophysites and Monothelites.
Sigh.

I've had to debate with countless EO that insist that the OOs canonized Eutyches, and refuse to recognize that the OO in fact anathematized him.  Btw, although there are Armenians in Palestine (lovely community), Armenia is not near Palestine (btw, Armenia once did rule Palestine, and their tradtion claims, and genetic testing proves, a link to the Hebrews).
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Here's an Icon with Something for Everyone
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2009, 11:52:51 PM »
Is Luther carrying a shotgun?

Maybe an arquebus/musket?

Did those exist in Luther's time...and did Luther really wear a cowboy hat?

That's just hilarious!  I can see Protestants being proud of their "guns and religion" when they see this.
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