Author Topic: Antiochians Changing Creed?  (Read 4414 times)

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Offline aserb

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Antiochians Changing Creed?
« on: February 28, 2007, 11:25:07 PM »
I heard today from a friend that the AOC is changing the wording of the creed from:

"... and was made man ..." to "... and became man..."

Anything to this?  ANy of you theologians or seminarians want to chime in on this?

What does anyone think about this?
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Offline Donna Rose

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2007, 12:07:58 AM »
I'm no seminarian, nor a theologian of any kind, but it seems that the first version, "...was made man," implies Christ was made, i.e. created, which He was not. Hence, "...and became man..." would be a bit more accurate, in this respect.

Donna
hmmmm...

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2007, 12:29:54 AM »
Well, the word in the Greek is ενανθρωπήσαντα which is fairly easy to break down: en-anthro-pisanta.  The beginning would be in-man-, or in-human-, but its the last word that gets tricky (where I would rely on pensateomnia if he's around): is it a derivative of ποιω/ποιησε?
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Offline Donna Rose

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2007, 01:12:13 AM »
lol Can you tell who's the seminarian between us? ;)

Donna
hmmmm...

Offline Elisha

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2007, 01:37:24 AM »
I heard today from a friend that the AOC is changing the wording of the creed from:

"... and was made man ..." to "... and became man..."

Anything to this?  ANy of you theologians or seminarians want to chime in on this?

What does anyone think about this?

Both my Jordanville prayer books say "...and became man..."  so what's the big deal?

Offline dantxny

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2007, 02:48:46 AM »
Well, from an English perspective I would say that "Became" is a stronger emphasis than "made."   Became it became a part of Him, whereas I do no think "was made falls under that full emphasis."  Also, was made being in the passive seems to imply that someone he made Him a man.  An arguble emphasis one could deduce by the Incarnation fair enough.  However, one could also imply that it brings in a bit more of doubt as not having full divinity as "became" might.  In a way similar to what Donna Rose said. 
That said, I think the difference is really not that big of a deal and all OCA and ROCOR churches I've been to have used it.  Personally, if I was being strict about it (as someone without training in Greek or much theology) I'd probably choose the new way just as a surer way.  Maybe if the other non-Slavic Churches also use the latter version, perhaps, they're merely trying to keep the Creed more uniform across Orthodoxy.
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I think the French may be on to something here.

Offline choirfiend

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2007, 06:26:29 AM »
I';ve heard both used interchangably. They're not changing the Creed. They're changing the wording of a TRANSLATION of the Creed, both versions of which may be imperfect, but one may be closer. Going by the interesting wordings the Antiochians use in general, this is probably a step up.
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Offline AMM

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2007, 10:28:18 AM »
I think it would be nice if we could just come up with a common English translation (and not just for the creed).

Offline aserb

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2007, 10:38:43 AM »
I agree with Welkodox. It would be another step closer to unity and more welcoming or understandable to newcomers.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2007, 11:26:07 AM »
I've wondered by SCOBA (at least) hasn't formed a multi-jurisdictional committee to put forth a single English translation of, at the very least, the Divine Liturgy.  For all their talk of unity, this seems like a no-brainer. 
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2007, 11:36:15 AM »
I've wondered by SCOBA (at least) hasn't formed a multi-jurisdictional committee to put forth a single English translation of, at the very least, the Divine Liturgy.  For all their talk of unity, this seems like a no-brainer. 

One was formed about 15 years ago and they produced two separate translations, one using thee/thou and the other using you/your. There was universal agreement amongst the jurisdictions that they all hated it for some reason or another so they never went into use.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2007, 11:42:14 AM »
Well that sounds like it was a complete waste of time, money and talent!  How can an internal committee put forth something that apparently everyone hated?

Even the ICEL hasn't reached that point yet! ;)
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Offline aserb

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2007, 01:09:18 PM »
Schultz:

Talk is cheap  ;)
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Offline FrChris

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2007, 01:12:09 PM »
One was formed about 15 years ago and they produced two separate translations, one using thee/thou and the other using you/your. There was universal agreement amongst the jurisdictions that they all hated it for some reason or another so they never went into use.

This is "The Official Translation of the Confession of Faith adopted by the Holy Eparchial Synod of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America":

http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/creed.asp

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages.

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried.

And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.

"He became man" is what we use (or, are supposed to use) in the GOA.
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Offline Jakub

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2007, 03:30:10 PM »
ICEL = :P

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Offline SakranMM

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2007, 07:08:59 PM »
Is there authority behind this "changing" of the creed, or is this a seminarian rumor?  What's the official scoop.  I've seen nothing from any official Antiochian source as of yet.

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Offline aserb

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2007, 07:45:20 PM »
Neither have I. I just got wind of it from a friend of mine who is a member of an AOC parish.
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Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2007, 09:45:17 PM »
I think it would be nice if we could just come up with a common English translation (and not just for the creed).

AMEN

Offline Starlight

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2007, 10:48:36 PM »
Absolutely! So much needed.

Offline Starlight

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2007, 10:53:12 PM »
UOC uses "became man". Also, I have heard that Fr. Archimandrite Ephraim Lash from Manchester, UK has been defined by the Ecumenical Patriarchate as the lead expert for English liturgical texts. The web site, were Fr. Ephraim seems to be a major contributor is here: http://www.anastasis.org.uk/

Offline SamB

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2007, 11:47:54 AM »
The original Arabic (in the Orthodox version of the creed) uses one intransitive verb in the active voice.  The passive 'was made man' sounds less accurate to me than the proposed change.  Other churches underscore this by using the exact phrase 'and became a man' in Arabic.

Offline Schultz

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2007, 11:50:18 AM »
ICEL = :P

james

Well, yeah! :)

But my point was that there actually are some people who like the ICEL translations for some God awful reason.

Apaprently this SCOBA translation was universally hated.
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2007, 12:00:31 PM »
Apaprently this SCOBA translation was universally hated.
Every jurisdiction found something wrong with the translation. There are not even universal translations that are being used within each jurisdiction.

Joseph

Offline AMM

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2007, 01:59:47 PM »

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2007, 04:12:45 PM »
Thanks for the link, welkodox.  I think I would stick with the Greek myself too if I had to celebrate liturgy with that text!  But, then again, God is not limited by texts, though we are. 

Since so many are brining up other languages as a point of comparison, may I suggest that though the Greek creed uses the participle enanthropesanta , in the Latin creed the participle became a finite verb in factus est which is the perfect active indicative form of the verbfio, fieri, factus sum.  It means to come into being, to become.  Coincidentally, in the Vulgate translation of Genesis, the sentence "Let there be light" is rendered as "Fiat lux", which is the jussive subjunctive form of the same verb.  It's interesting, at least to me, because this word in Latin suggests coming into being from nothing.  And Christ was not clothed in flesh before his condescension so I think the subtltety of the incarnation is rendered nicely with word "to become" though the English is not so filled with metaphor as the Latin.  Ah, the dangers of translation!  Maybe we should all just speak Greek.  :D Let the assaults begin!

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Offline Ung-Certez

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2007, 01:27:04 PM »
 :D

Maybe they hired a floating Roman Catholic-turned Orthodox-turned indepent litugist/musican? That seems popular these days. ;)

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Offline AMM

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2007, 01:44:52 PM »
:D

Maybe they hired a floating Roman Catholic-turned Orthodox-turned indepent litugist/musican? That seems popular these days. ;)

Ung-Certez

Somehow I can't see the Antiochians going for that given their language preferences.  :)

It is interesting to see their one time uber traditionalist is now all ga ga over gender neutral and modernized liturgies though.

[welcome btw]
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 01:50:20 PM by welkodox »

Offline aserb

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2007, 02:06:29 PM »
Quote
  It is interesting to see their one time uber traditionalist is now all ga ga over gender neutral and modernized liturgies though.

Why pray tell may that be hmmmmmmmm....  ;)
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Offline Ian Lazarus

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2007, 05:31:11 PM »
I think we have been so long divided as independant Archdiocese/ Dioces in the nation, that we cannot agree on a single translation, and whenever somone offers up interpretation, they have to go through everybodys administration,  and so it gets tied up in legislation,  and causes further segregation when somone show defenestration, the thing is dropped in retaliation, and is never taken up again for reexamination.

Which means the whole process was simply flatulation.

And that's the situation.
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Offline ma2000

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2007, 06:30:43 PM »
I don't know if I can help... I don't know Greek, but I think it's a matter of translation.
In Romanian the creed is like this:

"Si întru unul Domn, Iisus Hristos, .... Care pentru noi oamenii... S-a întrupat... şi S-a facut om."
I've posted the dots so the meaning can be understood.
The "S" is reflexive. It means that the action was done by Jesus and the object of the action is also Jesus.
The rough translation is:
"And in one Lord, Jesus Christ,.... who  incarnated himself ... and made himself man."
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 06:38:14 PM by ma2000 »
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Offline AMM

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2007, 08:57:40 AM »
Quote
I think we have been so long divided as independant Archdiocese/ Dioces in the nation, that we cannot agree on a single translation

I think there are two basic camps, those who favor sacral English interspersed with archaisms, and those who prefer more up to date English.  You also have a minority in the second camp that favors some of the things that are regarded highly by more liberal leaning liturgical scholars.  I think this issue is actually one while it may be aided by jurisdicational fragmentation, I don't think that is the cause of it.  The OCA has two allowable translations, one sacral and one more modern.  While I can see the value of a single style of English, I can also see that this would mean forcing people to use something they don't want to.  Doing that I don't think has a good track record for getting the desired results.

What can be even more confusing is when both styles are used in one service. 

Offline authio

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Re: Antiochians Changing Creed?
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2007, 12:45:25 PM »
We use both the "sacral" and the "modern," at least in the Pacific Northwest Deanery of the OCA.  However, we only use the "modern" at the dismissal hymn to the Theotokos:
"More honorable than the cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim, without defilement you gave birth to God the Word: true Theotokoks we magnify you."

likewise the closing prayer to the Theotokos after an activity:
"It is truly meet to bless you, O Theotokos, most blessed and blameless, and Mother of our God.  More honorable...(See above)"


Besides that, we use the "sacral" translation.  Does the OCA do this anywhere else?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 12:46:48 PM by authiodionitist »
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