OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 16, 2014, 09:05:02 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags CHAT Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Changes in the Eastern Rite Catholic Liturgical Practices  (Read 19600 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ung-Certez
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51

Vind'ber Selo


« Reply #90 on: July 02, 2007, 01:24:34 PM »

Shultz,

How bad/good was your new-and- improved-politically-correct-feminist RDL yesterday? Cheesy

Ung-Certez

Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,406


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2007, 01:49:39 PM »

I didn't go to my regular church yesterday, as I had a late Saturday night and decided to sleep in a bit.  I ended up at the local Ukrainian church which is in, of course, Ukrainian.  That was strange in its own right (rite?) and not because of the language...I'll get to that in a bit.

I was, however, at Patronage for the feast of SS Peter/Paul on Friday and that wasn't so bad.  I mean, yes, the translations are horrible and the music is unfamiliar, but we have a strong and good cantor who knows the new music well enough to steer us.  There are some times when he slips into the "old" music within the new setting, especially near the end of some phrases, but overall he's done a great job in bending us the mandated way.

However, I now have a very strong dislike for the priest's prayers being taken aloud.  It brings the liturgy to a grinding halt.  I don't mind the Anaphora being taken aloud so much, as our priest has done it here and there (it being an "official" option in Passaic for some time now).  It's the other prayers now being taken aloud that just totally ruin the flow of the liturgy. 

My parish seems to have taken an attitude of non-revolutionary dislike.  There are some who like it.  But most find it unnecessary.  We're lucky to have two cantors who have taken the time to know the new settings and who care enough to teach it to us, at least for the time being.  As far as I know, they're not the greatest fans of the new music but find it more important that we all sing together as a congregation even if it can be grating to our ears.  We've always had strong vocal participation in our parish.  In fact, many visiting priests comment on it.  It's not as strong as it used to be, but it's also not weak (like in Munhall) either.  I have a feeling that as people get used to it, more voices will join.

There are, however, some who have left.  I saw at least one of our older ladies at the Ukie church on Sunday.  As I wrote above, that was a strange experience in itself.  I have experienced recited DLs in English at this church before, probably due to the fact that the priest is not very fluent in English and I don't think they have a cantor who can sing the liturgical music in English.  However, this weekend I was "treated" with a strange recited/sung hybrid in Ukrainian.  The litanies were all recited.  There was no incensation, at least none outside of the sanctuary.  Most everything else was sung with the exception of the Creed.  Is this hybrid at all common in Ukrainian Catholic churches?

I must say that I am getting better at reading Cyrillic, though. Smiley
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,076



« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2007, 09:58:42 AM »

However, I now have a very strong dislike for the priest's prayers being taken aloud.  It brings the liturgy to a grinding halt.  I don't mind the Anaphora being taken aloud so much, as our priest has done it here and there (it being an "official" option in Passaic for some time now).  It's the other prayers now being taken aloud that just totally ruin the flow of the liturgy.

Having heard it both ways, I agree.  I find the sotto voce prayers (including the Anaphora) being recited aloud breaks up the flow of the liturgy and I dislike it.  Some are absolutely maniacal about the necessity of reciting them aloud though.

Quote
However, this weekend I was "treated" with a strange recited/sung hybrid in Ukrainian.  The litanies were all recited.  There was no incensation, at least none outside of the sanctuary.  Most everything else was sung with the exception of the Creed.  Is this hybrid at all common in Ukrainian Catholic churches?

Sounds like a low mass.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,889


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2007, 10:11:17 AM »

How is this 'returning to their traditions"?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,406


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2007, 11:17:14 AM »

How is this 'returning to their traditions"?

There ARE a few good things about the new mandated liturgy.

Apparently, for some people, the actual music is more representative of old prostopinije. I wouldn't know, I'm not that old nor have I experienced enough DLs totally in Slavonic to be in the know.  How the English translations of the lyrical content of the hymns/prayers/whathaveyou work with the music is hotly debated.  Some of the wording just sounds really strange to my ears, especially since it's supposed to be in "modern American English".

The use of teplita has been mandated.

Kneeling has been eliminated, at least in theory.  The rubric in the People's Book reads "Standing is the proper liturgical posture".  Personally, I was very pleased to see this and also see everyone in my parish actually doing it, even the one elderly lady who is our resident Roman Catholic refugee for the past 40 years.

I think that's the extent of the "good".
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,076



« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2007, 11:38:58 AM »

There were people not cutting the wine with teplota before?
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,406


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2007, 11:41:09 AM »

There were people not cutting the wine with teplota before?

Yep.  My parish has (at least since I've been attending it) but I know there are other places, especially within Western PA, that simply did not do it.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
stosh
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 63


« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2007, 01:17:17 PM »

Yep.  My parish has (at least since I've been attending it) but I know there are other places, especially within Western PA, that simply did not do it.




I'm not 100% positive, but I think that not using the teplota goes back to the days of Bishop Ivancho in the BCC. Roll Eyes
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,406


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2007, 01:57:43 PM »


I'm not 100% positive, but I think that not using the teplota goes back to the days of Bishop Ivancho in the BCC. Roll Eyes

It at least goes back that far. According to page 63 of the Ordo Celebrationis of 1944, the "use of the hot water is left to the discretion of the Bishop...This practice is excluded in our diocese by the wish of His Excellency". I have a feeling that Bishop Ivancho didn't just come up with this idea on his own which leads me to believe that it was the custom in at least some of the parishes in Carpatho-Rus'. As is noted in the footnote, this practice is mentioned in the Roman edition of the Liturgikon. 

Do Russian Old Believers practice the use of the teplota?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 01:58:50 PM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2007, 02:24:38 PM »

Kneeling has been eliminated, at least in theory.  The rubric in the People's Book reads "Standing is the proper liturgical posture".  Personally, I was very pleased to see this and also see everyone in my parish actually doing it, even the one elderly lady who is our resident Roman Catholic refugee for the past 40 years.

This is one of the things I have the biggest problem with. The statement as printed is incorrect, for several reasons:

1) To my knowledge there is no canon law, synodal decree, whatever, that addresses this except to say that there should be no kneeling on Sundays and during the Paschal season (until the kneeling prayers of Pentecost).

2) Whoever came up with this is blatantly ignorant of the fact that the roots of our Church are Central European. We did not come from predominantly Orthodox countries (where kneeling may or may not be practiced). We came from areas where East and West mingled, and it is natural that some of our piety and practice is influenced by the Western Church. If you go to a GC or Orthodox church in Carpatho-Rus' (except perhaps for a Russified monastery), the people kneel during the consecration, the elevation, and at the "Jedin svjat". The people kneel - period. When Rusyns today come the the USA they maintain this practice and until very recently, they had no trouble fitting in in our churches where the same practice was kept. In fact it is clear that many of them believe very strongly that not kneeling is an offense against Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist. This is just one more way that the powers-that-be are pulling up the welcome mat for Rusyn immigrants from our churches.

3) "proper" according to whom? Even among Orthodox Slavs there is no uniform practice with respect to kneeling. I've been to ACROD parishes where they kneel during the Our Father on Sundays, and in some OCA and ROCOR parishes they kneel during the Great Entrance! Nevermind what various Ukrainian, Serb, and other Slav Orthodox do...

We presumably would generally stand for the entire liturgy were we in a pewless, open church, but I don't see the Pittsburgh Metropolia going that direction any time soon (unless they want to totally destroy everything that's left of it).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 02:27:18 PM by Lemko Rusyn » Logged
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2007, 02:31:25 PM »

We've always had strong vocal participation in our parish.  In fact, many visiting priests comment on it.  It's not as strong as it used to be, but it's also not weak (like in Munhall) either.

It's never acknowledged on that "other" forum, but the people at St. John's Cathedral in Munhall have been dead wood since way before the RDL was even a twinkle in the eye of Met. Judson Procyk. In fact, I attended Mass (twuddn't no Divine Liturgy) at the cathedral several times in the early 1990s with then-rector Msgr. Procyk and I was amazed at how horrible the liturgical practice was on the part of the celebrant and the congregation. Maybe the RDL is partially to blame there, but they weren't doing so well before that, either.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,406


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2007, 02:46:24 PM »

It's never acknowledged on that "other" forum, but the people at St. John's Cathedral in Munhall have been dead wood since way before the RDL was even a twinkle in the eye of Met. Judson Procyk. In fact, I attended Mass (twuddn't no Divine Liturgy) at the cathedral several times in the early 1990s with then-rector Msgr. Procyk and I was amazed at how horrible the liturgical practice was on the part of the celebrant and the congregation. Maybe the RDL is partially to blame there, but they weren't doing so well before that, either.

I've heard that as well.  When my wife and I were discussing about moving back to Pittsburgh (at least for me) a few years ago, I remember asking some people about the cathedral and they all told me not to go there unless I had to.  Everyone told me to move to Aliquippa and go to St. George's where Fr. Elias had made that parish a model one.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2007, 10:54:23 AM »

The omission of teplota goes back to the Synod of Zamosc in 1720. Teplota and the sponge were forbidden and the Filioque and commemoration of the Pope were required.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,406


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #103 on: July 05, 2007, 09:48:06 AM »

The omission of teplota goes back to the Synod of Zamosc in 1720. Teplota and the sponge were forbidden and the Filioque and commemoration of the Pope were required.

Thanks, Fr. Deacon!

That also reminds me...the Filioque is gone from the entire Metropolita.  It was still being used in various places, but now it's totally removed from the service books.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Ung-Certez
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51

Vind'ber Selo


« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2008, 12:30:25 AM »

This is truly an amazing quote and development if true.

Now Professor J. Michael Thompson was once Father J. Michael Thompson under ACROD and Metropolitan Nicholas.  Metropolitan Nicholas removed him and defrocked him.  I'll spare the details of why, but the main point is that I find it very surprising and hard to believe that Metropolitan Nicholas would send his priests to learn music from someone who he removed.

Can someone verify that Metropolitan Nicholas is actually sending his seminarians to learn under J. Michael Thompson?

The Shadow

It has been reported that J.Michael Thompson has been removed from his his postion with the Ruthenian Metropolia.  How does that affect the use of the green RDL books now?

Ung
Logged
Joseph-James
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 40

tonsured reader


« Reply #105 on: January 20, 2008, 06:41:49 PM »

DO look over the RDL stuff on byzcath.org . The RDL was in the works for well over a decade, and was delayed/interrupted by the death of one of the BCC metropolitans. There were actually 2 different committees that worked on it, one for liturgy, and one for music, with an eventual intereparchial group to finalize it. The RDL covers mostly the St. John Chrysostom and the St. Basil Divine Liturgies. The books are in English only, and the music strives to be of the Carpatho-Rusyn prostopinije tradition. In some parishes, however, slavonic is still in use, and in other parishes only music from the new book is allowed, causing major learning curves for the laity for "new" music.

While I was in the BCC, I personally had no problem with the book itself. I did, however, perceive a lack of a creative spirit at work in their church, and a continuing failure to live up to all of the challenges from Rome to restore their traditions, such as in JP IIs encyclical "Orientale Lumen". There is definitely something non-Orthodox about claiming to be Orthodox in communion with Rome, I guess. Smiley
Logged

Jim
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #106 on: January 20, 2008, 08:26:00 PM »

While I was in the BCC, I personally had no problem with the book itself. I did, however, perceive a lack of a creative spirit at work in their church,

Could you please elaborate?

After all, some feel that it is exactly a "creative spirit" that resulted in this RDL mess. And with respect to the music and the practices being introduced into the newly-minted certified cantor caste, the gutting of centuries-old practices that have nothing to do with Latinization is surely the work of a "creative spirit" (I'm tending to think of the evil kind).
Logged
Ung-Certez
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51

Vind'ber Selo


« Reply #107 on: January 20, 2008, 10:40:35 PM »

Lemko Rusyn,

You mean the suppression of the tradtional Rusyn para-liturgical hymns,  Nativity carols, and Lenten hymns, only to be replaced by newly-created para-liturgical "weekly" hymns?

Ung
Logged
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #108 on: January 20, 2008, 11:17:48 PM »

Lemko Rusyn,

You mean the suppression of the tradtional Rusyn para-liturgical hymns,  Nativity carols, and Lenten hymns, only to be replaced by newly-created para-liturgical "weekly" hymns?

Ung

I don't know what you're talking about  Roll Eyes

Oh, you mean those Polish RC customs! They are so offputting and confusing to newcomers. We don't want to be seen as favoring the Polish ethnicity over all others, so all that katolicki stuff must go!  laugh

Otherwise stated as "we won't be following the Pope's wishes to be true to ourselves until our practices are identical with ROCOR's (except for stuff that the Metropolitan Cantor Institute just makes up -- that's just fine)".
Logged
Joseph-James
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 40

tonsured reader


« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2008, 10:10:14 AM »

Could you please elaborate?

After all, some feel that it is exactly a "creative spirit" that resulted in this RDL mess. And with respect to the music and the practices being introduced into the newly-minted certified cantor caste, the gutting of centuries-old practices that have nothing to do with Latinization is surely the work of a "creative spirit" (I'm tending to think of the evil kind).

I may have made a poor choice of words. What I mean by "creative spirit" is a willingness to use good music as long as the text is acceptable. When the RDL was introduced, you could say the baby got thrown out with the bath water. Some parishes found themselves unable to use truly fine service music (works by Bortniansky, others), because it didn't conform to the latest committee definition of Carpatho-Rusyn prostopinije. That's what I mean by a lack of a creative spirit. Maybe I should have said a lack of a good musical understanding instead. I say this as a trained musician, who tends to be very tolerant of all kinds of music for church use, as long as text and emotion are carefully presented without slipping into secular values.

Further, the BCC used to have regular minor orders that included perpetual cantors, readers, and subdeacons, but when the American Latin rite dropped minor orders as the norm, so did the BCC (I am led to believe this may not be true in eastern Europe, however.) . Minor orders bestow a charism for the work done that is no longer understood by BCC clergy in the U.S.- an indication of a loss of Spirit, but of a more significant kind. That's the sort of mistake that leads Orthodox to say a group is no longer Orthodox, because it follows the letter of the law, not the spirit. The reactions of BCCers can be read in much more detail, with all their angst and sadness, at byzcath.org  .
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 10:16:36 AM by Joseph-James » Logged

Jim
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #110 on: January 21, 2008, 03:35:47 PM »

I may have made a poor choice of words. What I mean by "creative spirit" is a willingness to use good music as long as the text is acceptable. When the RDL was introduced, you could say the baby got thrown out with the bath water. Some parishes found themselves unable to use truly fine service music (works by Bortniansky, others), because it didn't conform to the latest committee definition of Carpatho-Rusyn prostopinije. That's what I mean by a lack of a creative spirit.

Thank you, Joseph-James, for your explanation and other additional comments.

From my perspective I think a huge part of the problem is that many of those who have acquired positions of prominence see the Carpatho-Rusyn spiritual musical tradition as one that, while having some value, is very shallow and even superficial. And so they are very willing to try to create new things where they feel the existing tradition is lacking. In a sense, I agree with what you have said (that part I quoted above). Unfortunately, I feel that the "faithfulness" that they have proclaimed their own work to have is so myopic as to render the entire tradition, and those who have practiced it in community in this country for several generations, a grave disservice and have wrought destruction. Their new creations, I feel, are of dubious value and were these "authorities" more open to the original tradition in its breadth and depth, would never have been necessary. The end result is alienating people from their own church and will, over time, destroy what remained of the tradition in this country.
Logged
Ung-Certez
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51

Vind'ber Selo


« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2008, 09:03:43 PM »

Lemko Rusyn,

That was a good synopsis of what has happened.  Then again, I don't believe the "Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Church of America" is interested in preserving authentic liturgical chant tradition and that is sad!

U-C
Logged
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #112 on: January 22, 2008, 11:23:45 PM »

From my perspective I think a huge part of the problem is that many of those who have acquired positions of prominence see the Carpatho-Rusyn spiritual musical tradition as one that, while having some value, is very shallow and even superficial. And so they are very willing to try to create new things where they feel the existing tradition is lacking. In a sense, I agree with what you have said (that part I quoted above). Unfortunately, I feel that the "faithfulness" that they have proclaimed their own work to have is so myopic as to render the entire tradition, and those who have practiced it in community in this country for several generations, a grave disservice and have wrought destruction. Their new creations, I feel, are of dubious value and were these "authorities" more open to the original tradition in its breadth and depth, would never have been necessary. The end result is alienating people from their own church and will, over time, destroy what remained of the tradition in this country.

I've been challenged by a friend to explain some of my comments above. And since through no doing of mine they have gained an audience elsewhere, I hope the visitor who chose to share them with another forum might add these thoughts there as well.

I'm going to paraphrase my friend's commentary. I trust he won't mind me sharing some of his thoughts in that format to push this discussion a bit further along.

To start, let me clarify that my comments above conflate several phenomena and may inaccurately suggest that responsibility for some of what I am reacting to rests entirely on the Pittsburgh Metropolia's cantor institute. For example, the cantor institute did not direct us to stop using the Christmas greeting and stop singing carols once we reach vespers on December 31 (i.e., the liturgical leave-taking of the Nativity). But officially we have been instructed to cease these parts of our traditional Christmas practice (which in some places would continue until Feb. 2! but at the very least until the eve of Theophany), and so our carols are effectively heard by most of our regular churchgoers only at most on two occasions: Nativity Eve/Nativity and the Sunday After the Nativity. Assuming most people don't sing in their families at home anymore, and don't go out in caroling groups in the days that follow, you can pretty much kiss our traditional Carpatho-Rusyn carols goodbye in the next 10 years unless we do more to cultivate them.

Quote
There have been complaints posted online about a newly-composed Theophany hymn that some parishes sang this year, which is essentially "O Come All Ye Faithful" with a few lyrical changes. It is certainly within the realm of tradition to borrow popular melodies. Is there a taboo against this now? I don't see the problem.

In principle, I didn't have a problem with what they did there. I thought what they came up with was silly and ill-advised, but I likewise recognize that "To Jordan's Water" (a paraliturgical hymn for Theophany sung in many parishes that was "canonized" by its inclusion in the old recently-retired pew books found throughout the Metropolia) was written no more than maybe 30 years ago by +Fr. Basil Kraynyak using a well-known melody (that of the Rusyn and Ukrainian carol "Nebo i zemlja"--"Heaven and Earth"). He actually did way back then what the cantor institute director had very recently done for all the Sundays of the year by writing all new lyrics to an established traditional melody of ours, so the cantor institute director hardly blazed that trail. I have a sheet somewhere of similar things that Msgr. Russell Duker wrote in the same vein, especially for Theophany (which he erroneously referred to as "ščedrivki", which in actuality are not Theophany hymns).

Quote
Do we need to be making new lyrics so that the hymn text is coupled to the day's readings? That is a novelty that I could live without, but could also live with if the lyrics were better. But then again, the lyrics of some of the older English renditions of our traditional paraliturgical hymns were equally, if not more, banal.

I think some of one of those cantors' later work, to the extent that it strove for at least a more accurate English rendition of the actual original text (rather than the 1970s questionable invented lyrics that bear little relation to the original text), stood out as an improvement on the older corpus of English hymns (also "canonized" by inclusion in the old pew book). Professor John Kahanick of blessed memory did his own English versions of our hymns with accuracy as a higher concern... unfortunately most of his work was never used outside of northeastern New Jersey.

Quote
Perhaps the issue is that we are challenging the musical capabilites of the present generation. Maybe we just can't sing, or learn anymore. I am skeptical. So please tell me, in your opinion, what is being destroyed? What original tradition is at risk?

You are right, singing for most of us is a big problem; we don't sing at home and hardly ever do we sing in community the way our past generations did, Americans across the board of whatever ethnic group.

What do I feel is being destroyed or is at risk under the new paradigm of liturgical (and paraliturgical) singing in the Pittsburgh Metropolia today?

1) Local traditions and melodies in the "old country" (i.e., the immigrant-founded communities in the rust belt towns of PA, NJ, OH, NY, CT, etc.). I think the musical needs of a parish in Phoenix, Arizona or Roswell, Georgia are quite different from those in Nanty Glo, Pa., or Roebling, New Jersey. And if the Brooklyn chapel (a largely immigrant-Rusyn, Rusyn-speaking, Church Slavonic-praying community, suppressed about 8? years ago) were somehow still a going concern, I can't imagine how they would be expected to respond to the mandate(s). Maybe the people in the Hillsborough (Manville), NJ, parish are young enough and their substantial European-born Rusyn contingent is now assimilated enough that they won't be so traumatized. Probably parishes in upstate PA and isolated parts of Ohio are more "selo" parishes ("village" parishes, where most of the people's families have lived there for generations and who all came from the same villages/local region in the European homeland) than parishes in New York City or Yonkers (or Cleveland, or Bridgeport, etc....) would be today, especially since the immigrants don't seem to be flocking to them, even in cities such as those named where there are such immigrants.

2) The cantor institute director spent probably a good year or more writing all those "new" hymns, but how many newly-published hymns from the cantor's institute were translations & arrangements of material in the Uzhhorod pisennik or of the (non-Ukrainian) stuff in Pap's Grekokatolicki duchovni pisni, or of some newer Rusyn hymns from eastern Slovakia sung the last 10-15 years by Rusyn immigrants attending the Uniontown pilgrimage? None! A prominent former Pittsburgh-area cantor has a lot of this work done already but outside his cantor school alumni, probably few people have it and for the most part it isn't available online anywhere. Where perfectly fine and aesthetically & spiritually pleasing hymns exist in the corpus of our own tradition (that perhaps are, God forbid, not yet in English) we should be translating these hymns and arranging them in English before we start inventing new hymns.

3) The recently-issued (and official?) cantoring directives of the cantor institute put such heavy restrictions on which paraliturgical hymns can be sung and when, and put them at lowest priority after psalmody (even outside the Liturgy proper) that our traditional, even our most well-known paraliturgical hymns will be sung rarely at best. And yet they are publishing new paraliturgical hymns for each nth Sunday after Pentecost that will be sung at most once a year and whose text will essentially have to be re-learned and sung from printed sheets year after year. Do they expect that anyone will develop any kind of emotional attachment to the hymn text? How will this happen? (In any case, I don't think that this is their goal. Regardless, it represents a rupture with our traditional spirituality and piety as represented by our traditional paraliturgical hymns, which are primarily of a more-popular, dare I say, "western", piety; they do express theology, but they do it simply and without telling an elaborate story such as these new "Gospel of the week" hymns now being distributed by the cantor institute.) The traditional Rusyn paraliturgical hymns are a significant part of my spirituality, and I love to immerse myself in them, and yet I find that I'm singing them so rarely now in church (or merely once a year at a pilgrimage, as the cantoring directives point out as the most appropriate place & time for them) that even I am forgetting many of the lyrics to them.

That's where I'm coming from.

To further illustrate what I feel we have either lost or have no interest in recapturing, please take a look at the photos (at least the 1st few pages' full) here:
http://www.lemkowyna.net/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=750&Itemid=2

This is a village parish in the Carpathian Mountains of southeastern Poland; the people are Lemko Rusyns who returned to the area since the 1960s after being deported in 1947 to other parts of Poland.

For what reason should our parishes and pilgrimages not look like this? These are our people and they are following our religious traditions. Even if those people were singing entirely in English, even if nobody was in traditional dress, I can't think of anywhere I've been in the Pittsburgh Metropolia, with perhaps one partial exception (a "selo" parish in upstate PA), where I would think we belonged to the same church as those folks. (Technically we don't -- they're 'Polish' Orthodox, and rather than prostopinije or Galician plainchant they were probably singing Russian or Ukrainian choir music but almost certainly were singing our paraliturgical hymns. And their village is less than 10 miles from the border with Slovakia, where even though because the former were in a historically Galician eparchy and their music was a bit different, the people speak the same language & dialect and know the same customs and recognize no difference between the people who live on one side of the border and those on the other, except for an artificial political boundary between them.)

I could easily find photos of similar events in eastern Slovakia or the Transcarpathian district of Ukraine that would look entirely the same as in the link above, but would likewise look very different from what our religious practice looks like here. If we value our past and are still striving to return to our traditions, why are we more concerned about ostensibly "authentically-eastern" -- i.e., Greek and Russian -- practices than aligning our ways back to those folks where we actually came from?
Logged
Joseph-James
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 40

tonsured reader


« Reply #113 on: January 25, 2008, 04:17:35 PM »

It has been reported that J.Michael Thompson has been removed from his his postion with the Ruthenian Metropolia.  How does that affect the use of the green RDL books now?

Ung

Actually, it has only been reported unofficially that Prof. Thompson is no longer working in his various capacities for the Metropolia of Pittsburgh. To say that he has been removed is probably misleading, and implies some sort of involuntary termination, which is most unlikely. It is also true that he has had some working relationship with Bishop Nicholas of ACROD related to prostopinije, which has probably been documented on byzcath.org or one of the official church websites for the metropolia or ACROD. It is also entirely likely that Prof. Thompson is going to a better salary somewhere else, be it professional choir directing or teaching, than he could have made in his positions with the Metropolia. I hope his job change is of his own making, and helps him pursue additional career opportunities. He is, after all, an exceptionally hard working and multi-talented musician.
Logged

Jim
Ung-Certez
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51

Vind'ber Selo


« Reply #114 on: January 26, 2008, 12:26:23 AM »

A deacon reported the story after his priest informed him.  I don't think the good deacon would be making this story up  just because he disagrees with the RDL.  I don't believe the BCW is going to print such a story.  We will have to wait and see if an "official" announcement is made by the BC Seminary and the Archeparchial Chancery.

U
Logged
Tags: Modernism inclusive language 
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.102 seconds with 53 queries.