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Author Topic: Changes in the Eastern Rite Catholic Liturgical Practices  (Read 20607 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2007, 12:36:26 PM »

There can be confusion with the terms.  Normally when someone uses the word "Catholic", they mean someone in communion with the Roman Pontiff who accepts the dogma, councils, etc. of that church.  When someone says "Orthodox" they generally mean someone in communion with the Eastern patriarchates who accepts the dogma, councils, etc. of that church.

The cornerstone on my parish says "XYZ Orthodox Catholic Church" which is of course true.  We are both fully Orthodox and fully Catholic in the real sense, meaning we possess the fullness and rightness of faith.  So I could call myself "Catholic", but I would imagine that would confuse people.
I have to be careful too. I have pointed out that I am an orthodox Catholic before, meaning that I actually hold to the teachings of the Church and People thought that I meant that I was an Eastern Orthodox Christian.
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« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2007, 01:25:35 PM »

I'm sure nobody will agree with this, but that's how I see them and that's what "Orthodoxy" is to me. Which bishops and patriarchs they are in communion with matters not a whit to me if they don't have the other stuff right. And these folks did and do have it right.

Well, I think I'm pretty much a proponent of Afanassief's view of what constitutes the church, so I can see at least part of your statement as being something I could agree to.  In the case of the people you're speaking of though, they are in communion with a church that says who you are in communion with and subject to defines not only ones "orthodoxy" but the nature of the church itself.  Because of that, and for other reasons, I think to say one is "Orthodox" but in the Roman Communion at the same time is an untenable statement and simply contra reality.  That certainly doesn't stop people from saying or thinking such things though.

Also, I believe we're supposed to avoid the "U" word here as some people get upset by it.

Don't shoot the messenger.
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« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2007, 01:48:07 AM »

"There is an old Russian Orthodox proverb: "As the priest goes so the typicon goes."

Fortunately, since I've become Orthodox, all the priests in parishes I've visited follow the same typicon... Keeps the head clear of nonsense...
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« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2007, 03:48:39 AM »

.
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« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2007, 10:24:29 AM »

.

I disagree.
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« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2007, 12:12:21 PM »

.
By far the most outrageous post I seen since I have been a member of OC.net Wink
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« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2007, 12:40:36 PM »

He's out of control and must be stopped.  Why just the other day he called me a

;

Then said I should just

#

Then he said this board is all

%

I just said "hey, settle down, and oh by the way" -

^
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« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2007, 01:19:15 AM »






                                           v
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« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2007, 01:21:53 AM »

He's out of control and must be stopped.  Why just the other day he called me a

;

Then said I should just

#

Then he said this board is all

%

I just said "hey, settle down, and oh by the way" -

^


How can you not see my point, I clearly stated it,  "."  which says it all in one tiny little dot.  Clearly you must be adhering to the heterodox views of the argument set forth in the claim of "," 
Say Three Bohodrice Divos and sing Petry'pivy ten times for your transgressions against the position of  "."
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« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2007, 02:07:43 AM »

Quote
heterodox views of the argument set forth in the claim of "," 

I know that I certainly do, but only the dogma of the Oxford ,
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« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2007, 02:54:29 AM »

Ah yes the great controversy between Webster's "," and Oxford's ","  But the fact that both lead to the same end argument of "/" it doesn't matter which side a person agrees with.

Be careful me and Weldox will make you eat halupki at our next meeting in defence of the orthodox position of ","
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« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2007, 03:05:21 AM »

Say Three Bohodrice Divos

That's Bohorodice Divo.

Quote from: username!
sing Petry'pivy ten times

That's preterpivyj.

Oh, and by the way:

^.

 Tongue
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« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2007, 12:39:20 PM »

Be careful me and Weldox will make you eat halupki at our next meeting in defence of the orthodox position of ","

Or we'll throw you in the pierogi press until you scream "&!".
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« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2007, 01:54:28 PM »

That's Bohorodice Divo.

That's preterpivyj.

Oh, and by the way:

^.

 Tongue
  Ok,ok there is a ' somewhere in preterpivy.  And I did forget to o in Bohorodice Divo.  If even gets harder when you're used to the Slovak alpahabet version and then you end up with a lemko/polish translieration, hefty usage of the letter w.

And no, the ultimate proclaimation according to Dan Brown is V
If it was in a movie or a book it has to be true Wink

Therefore, for correcting me with both the v and the evil ^ you must say ten Bogorodice Divos, saying them all with the g and not the h.


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« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2007, 03:47:42 PM »

  Ok,ok there is a ' somewhere in preterpivy.  And I did forget to o in Bohorodice Divo.  If even gets harder when you're used to the Slovak alpahabet version and then you end up with a lemko/polish translieration, hefty usage of the letter w.

The ' is redundant and it is not actually transliteration as it is supposed to represent the letter ÑŒ but in "preterp'ivyj" it does not represent a letter. Etymologically speaking in Slavonic you would never write претерпивый, nor претерпьивый, only претерпѣвый. It would be OK to write preterpjivyj, as "ji" is understood as the Rusyn & Ukrainian pronunciation of Ñ£. Same thing with the word Дѣво.  "D'ivo" would imply that it's spelled Дьиво, which it isn't. Better that it be written as Djivo. But whatever.

Quote
Therefore, for correcting me with both the v and the evil ^ you must say ten Bogorodice Divos, saying them all with the g and not the h.

Well now I'll have to say Bogorodice Djevo to be consistent. Oy. No thanks, I'll just be a good Byzantine American Pittsburgh Catholic and say it in English.
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« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2007, 03:30:53 AM »

So if you are going to be a good byzcath of the pittsburgh metrpolia and just use english, why be so adament about the proper spelling of a language you don't care to use?  hehe. 
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« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2007, 03:45:25 AM »

How about the chopped up Pre-sanctified Liturgy I attended last night at the BCC?

All I can say is:

&*^%! Huh
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« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2007, 11:57:37 PM »

Compared to what?  What was chopped up about it?  Please tell me.  Deacon Lance can attest to the fact that the appropriate text for the Pre-sanctified liturgy according to the Rusyn tradition is very much complete.  I was Byzantine Catholic, I'm American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox now.  I am completely familiar with both and they are very similiar, with differences, but essentially very close.
I'm interested to know what was chopped up?  Which book did you use, the Metropolia of Pittsburgh or the Passaic book?
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« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2007, 05:17:23 PM »


The new music is seen by their hierarch as an improvement and Metropolitan Nicholas is sending his seminarians to Pittsburgh to learn it.   


This is truly an amazing quote and development if true.

Now Professor J. Michael Thompson was once Father J. Michael Thompson under ACROD and Metropolitan Nicholas.  Metropolitan Nicholas removed him and defrocked him.  I'll spare the details of why, but the main point is that I find it very surprising and hard to believe that Metropolitan Nicholas would send his priests to learn music from someone who he removed.

Can someone verify that Metropolitan Nicholas is actually sending his seminarians to learn under J. Michael Thompson?

The Shadow
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« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2007, 05:22:09 PM »

I would like to know as well.  The Levkulic Book that my parish, and probably most in Pittsburgh, uses has only a few abbreviations: only one Pslam is taken for each kathisma, Pslam 141 and 129 are omitted, At Psalm 140 only 3 stichera are taken.

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« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2007, 06:29:29 PM »

Now Professor J. Michael Thompson was once Father J. Michael Thompson under ACROD and Metropolitan Nicholas.  Metropolitan Nicholas removed him and defrocked him.

Greetins' Shadow. 

There appears to be a vastly different version of this same story.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/221760/page/5/fpart/1#Post221760
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« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2007, 07:17:49 PM »

Greetins' Shadow. 

There appears to be a vastly different version of this same story.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/221760/page/5/fpart/1#Post221760


I've always wondered why the webpage with descriptions of the faculty on the Byzantine Catholic Seminary website is absent of any information of Professor Thompson's time as a priest in ACROD and l'ECOF (the Western French Orthodox Church).  Here is a link of what I'm talking about and as of this posting there is no info about his prior clergy time in his description (Professor Thompson is at the bottom of the webpage): 

http://www.byzcathsem.org/about/faculty.php

I wonder why?

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« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2007, 07:32:42 PM »

This is truly an amazing quote and development if true.

Now Professor J. Michael Thompson was once Father J. Michael Thompson under ACROD and Metropolitan Nicholas.  Metropolitan Nicholas removed him and defrocked him.  I'll spare the details of why, but the main point is that I find it very surprising and hard to believe that Metropolitan Nicholas would send his priests to learn music from someone who he removed.

Can someone verify that Metropolitan Nicholas is actually sending his seminarians to learn under J. Michael Thompson?

The Shadow


It's my understanding that if he is a defrocked priest he is forbidden by Canon Law from 'forming new clergy', meaning he should not be on the staff of the seminary.   If this is so how does the Metropolia get away with it?


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« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2007, 07:54:15 PM »

Compared to what?  What was chopped up about it?  Please tell me.  Deacon Lance can attest to the fact that the appropriate text for the Pre-sanctified liturgy according to the Rusyn tradition is very much complete.  I was Byzantine Catholic, I'm American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox now.  I am completely familiar with both and they are very similiar, with differences, but essentially very close.
I'm interested to know what was chopped up?  Which book did you use, the Metropolia of Pittsburgh or the Passaic book?

Let's put it this way. I went to an OCA parish last week and this priest had to do the most complete pre-sanctified I'd ever seen, down to closing the curtain half way at communion. I was physically exhausted from doing so many poklons.

The BCC pre-sanctified otoh, was nothing but kneeling, sitting, no poklons, and inclusive language. (Loves us all, instead of loves mankind). This was in the Parma eparchy. The latter seemed like a travesty compared to the former. Makes me glad I'm now Orthodox. Should have done it years ago. Grin
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« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2007, 08:41:45 PM »


I've always wondered why the webpage with descriptions of the faculty on the Byzantine Catholic Seminary website is absent of any information of Professor Thompson's time as a priest in ACROD and l'ECOF (the Western French Orthodox Church).  Here is a link of what I'm talking about and as of this posting there is no info about his prior clergy time in his description (Professor Thompson is at the bottom of the webpage): 

http://www.byzcathsem.org/about/faculty.php

I wonder why?

Monomakh

Must be a clerical error.
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« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2007, 09:46:32 PM »

Let's put it this way. I went to an OCA parish last week and this priest had to do the most complete pre-sanctified I'd ever seen, down to closing the curtain half way at communion. I was physically exhausted from doing so many poklons.

The BCC pre-sanctified otoh, was nothing but kneeling, sitting, no poklons, and inclusive language. (Loves us all, instead of loves mankind). This was in the Parma eparchy. The latter seemed like a travesty compared to the former. Makes me glad I'm now Orthodox. Should have done it years ago. Grin

Well many seemed unpleased about the "God who loves us all" stuff, but besides that you are juggling a Russian tradition with a Carpatho-Russian tradition.  I don't judge how appropriate worship is according to if the priest used the curtain (not a Rusyn tradition, we don't even have curtains).  See, you say you are glad to be Orthodox now, but does that mean I am less Orthodox because my diocese has a different pre-sanctified tradition than your Orthodox diocese? 
I'm glad you liked the OCA event and it was prayerful, and I do agree with your distaste for the inclusive language. 
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« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2007, 10:21:14 PM »

Well many seemed unpleased about the "God who loves us all" stuff, but besides that you are juggling a Russian tradition with a Carpatho-Russian tradition.  I don't judge how appropriate worship is according to if the priest used the curtain (not a Rusyn tradition, we don't even have curtains).  See, you say you are glad to be Orthodox now, but does that mean I am less Orthodox because my diocese has a different pre-sanctified tradition than your Orthodox diocese? 
I'm glad you liked the OCA event and it was prayerful, and I do agree with your distaste for the inclusive language. 

Hold up a minute. I'm not saying one Orthodox jurisdiction is better than another. I was only comparing the BCC to the OCA, (which as most know was made up of former Byzantines and their descendents.).  The OCA is light years ahead of the BCC as far as rubrics go. I can say so with confidence because I am a former Byzantine.

The ACROD as you know is also from the BCC and made up of Rusyns, as is the majority of the OCA. It's just that the OCA follows mostly Russian usage, while the ACROD kept most of the BCC tradition intact. So it's really unrealistic to compare the two. The only thing that really counts is that we're both Orthodox regardless of jurisdiction. S'nami Boh!
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« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2007, 03:17:13 AM »

Hold up a minute. I'm not saying one Orthodox jurisdiction is better than another. I was only comparing the BCC to the OCA, (which as most know was made up of former Byzantines and their descendents.).  The OCA is light years ahead of the BCC as far as rubrics go. I can say so with confidence because I am a former Byzantine.

The ACROD as you know is also from the BCC and made up of Rusyns, as is the majority of the OCA. It's just that the OCA follows mostly Russian usage, while the ACROD kept most of the BCC tradition intact. So it's really unrealistic to compare the two. The only thing that really counts is that we're both Orthodox regardless of jurisdiction. S'nami Boh!

Read the little blurb above my picture on the left of the screen.  Look up my recent posts.  The Byzcath Pre-Sanctified is sooooooooo close to the ACROD. 
I held on for a minute Wink
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« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2007, 08:47:42 AM »

I'm not sure if this is a new or old change, but it appears at least one EC Church in this country allows lay people to distribute communion during the liturgy.
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« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2007, 10:04:26 AM »

Never heard or saw that before.  Where's this church?
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« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2007, 03:58:55 PM »

Schultz, I believe it was here in the People's Republic.
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« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2007, 04:02:12 PM »

Hm, interesting.  As I said, I've never heard of that happening and, as far as I know, that's something that our heirarchs haven't authorized.

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« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2007, 05:22:24 PM »

The Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh has authorized it but it is far more restricted than what you will find in Latin Church, in fact it is probably in line with what Rome envisioned when it was first allowed in the Latin Church.

From: THE NORMS OF PARTICULAR LAW OF THE BYZANTINE METROPOLITAN CHURCH SURI IURIS OF PITTSBURGH, U.S.A.

Canon 709 §2

§l. In cases of true necessity, deacons may distribute the Divine Eucharist.

§2. In the same cases, even minor clerics and members of the laity can be designated to distribute the Divine Eucharist.

1o. A parish may have one person designated for this purpose plus another for each 75 communicants at the Liturgy.

2o. The metropolitan Liturgical Commission is to prepare a program of training that includes theological and spiritual formation, the selection process for candidates and a practicum.

3o. Those persons may take communion to those who, by reason of illness, infirmity or age, cannot attend the Divine Liturgy regularly.

4o. If any priest or deacon is present at the Liturgy, in any capacity whatever, he is to make himself known to the principal celebrant and shall distribute the divine Eucharist, vested insofar as possible, and taking precedence over any minor cleric or lay person present.
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« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2007, 11:09:49 PM »

The Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh has authorized it but it is far more restricted than what you will find in Latin Church, in fact it is probably in line with what Rome envisioned when it was first allowed in the Latin Church.

From: THE NORMS OF PARTICULAR LAW OF THE BYZANTINE METROPOLITAN CHURCH SURI IURIS OF PITTSBURGH, U.S.A.

--which was first promulgated in 1999, but Eucharistic Ministers have been serving in parishes in the Pittsburgh Archeparchy at least since the early 1990s, with hierarchical approval where the priest had requested it because of his own physical challenges. (One of these priests was basically immobile and sat on a chair at the Holy Table for the whole liturgy. For him to even sit at the ambo to distribute communion would have been impossible.)
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« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2007, 11:32:26 PM »

Hm, interesting.  As I said, I've never heard of that happening and, as far as I know, that's something that our heirarchs haven't authorized.

If anyone here knows me you also know that I've "been around" the eastern parts of the Metropolia more than many people (for historical research purposes) and I've seen eucharistic ministers in at least six? parishes, in some of them going on about 8 years now -- they started as soon as the Particular Law was promulgated & went into effect.

As far as the discussion going on at that "other board" today about this, I think it would help things tremendously if subdeacons were ordained for parish liturgical ministry instead of as a waystation to diaconate or priesthood. At least if a cleric of some sort were distributing the Eucharist it wouldn't seem so... American. Tongue

And well... if you want to talk about what else I've seen, "altar girls" aren't just an isolated aberration. Some "Ruthenian" and Ukrainian parishes have had them for 10-15 years or more. Officially it's not allowed, but when the Metropolitan Archbishop of Philadelphia published a clarification about the practice (that it is NOT allowed) in The Way about 12? years ago, the practice seemed to have increased, not decreased, among the Ukrainians at least. The Pittsburgh Metropolia's Particular Law also prohibits it, but still it continues...
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« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2007, 10:52:28 AM »

Why don't people just do what they are told?  Smiley
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« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2007, 04:49:54 PM »

This is truly an amazing quote and development if true.

Now Professor J. Michael Thompson was once Father J. Michael Thompson under ACROD and Metropolitan Nicholas.  Metropolitan Nicholas removed him and defrocked him.  I'll spare the details of why, but the main point is that I find it very surprising and hard to believe that Metropolitan Nicholas would send his priests to learn music from someone who he removed.

Can someone verify that Metropolitan Nicholas is actually sending his seminarians to learn under J. Michael Thompson?

The Shadow


Did anyone ever find out anything on this?

I keep hearing the Metropolitan Nicholas (ACROD)  is sending his seminarians to the Byzantine seminary to learn the new music.

Once again, this is amazing since I seem to remember Metropolitan Nicholas defrocking J. Michael Thompson once upon a time.  I just can't see the Metropolitan sending any of his future priests to Sts. Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Seminary.

Awaiting what anyone else has heard.

The Shadow
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« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2007, 01:11:50 PM »

Yes, considering the circumstances, I don't think Metropolitan Nicholas would do such a thing.  I think he is just being polite.

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« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2007, 02:00:04 PM »


Did anyone ever find out anything on this?

I keep hearing the Metropolitan Nicholas (ACROD)  is sending his seminarians to the Byzantine seminary to learn the new music.

Once again, this is amazing since I seem to remember Metropolitan Nicholas defrocking J. Michael Thompson once upon a time.  I just can't see the Metropolitan sending any of his future priests to Sts. Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Seminary.

Awaiting what anyone else has heard.

The Shadow

My best friend is an ACROD priest. I'll contact him.
Music? Perhaps. But I would not imagine any reason he would short-circuit his own active seminary in Johnstown, PA - none whatsoever. Given his track record of the last 15 or so years (or more) of de-Latinizing ACROD, I find this conjecture unbelievable.

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« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2007, 06:01:07 PM »


Did anyone ever find out anything on this?

I keep hearing the Metropolitan Nicholas (ACROD)  is sending his seminarians to the Byzantine seminary to learn the new music.

Once again, this is amazing since I seem to remember Metropolitan Nicholas defrocking J. Michael Thompson once upon a time.  I just can't see the Metropolitan sending any of his future priests to Sts. Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Seminary.

Awaiting what anyone else has heard.

The Shadow

Shadow,

I've always wondered why the webpage with descriptions of the faculty on the Byzantine Catholic Seminary website is absent of any information of Professor Thompson's time as a priest in ACROD and l'ECOF (the Western French Orthodox Church).  Here is a link of what I'm talking about and as of this posting there is no info about his prior clergy time in his description (Professor Thompson is at the bottom of the webpage): 

http://www.byzcathsem.org/about/faculty.php

I wonder why?


It's my understanding that if he is a defrocked priest he is forbidden by Canon Law from 'forming new clergy', meaning he should not be on the staff of the seminary.   If this is so how does the Metropolia get away with it?


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« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2007, 06:58:59 PM »

I believe it is the case of "don't ask, don't tell" policy that is being practiced.

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« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2007, 01:18:08 PM »

Eight days and counting... And yet so many parishes of the Ruthenian Metropolia have not even purchased the new RDL books! Cheesy

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« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2007, 01:52:50 PM »

We have them but they're still in boxes as far as I know.  We'll be using them next Friday for the first time. 

Won't that be fun... Wink
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« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2007, 04:28:46 PM »

Sorry to hear that, you have my sympathy! Cheesy

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« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2007, 04:39:25 PM »

It's a shame, too, because every visiting priest who concelebrates always says the same thing:

"It's been a long time since I've heard singing like that!  So strong and so full of life!"
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