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Author Topic: Named after latin or Celtic saints  (Read 2597 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bono Vox
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« on: February 10, 2007, 02:09:13 AM »

Why is it that you never find an Orthodox Church named after a Celtic or Latin Saint? Why are there no "St. Patrick Orthodox church", "St. Columba Orthodox church" , or "St. Sebastian Orthodox church"Huh I have never even seen a Celtic or Latin saint on any Iconistasis. Have any of you??
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2007, 02:11:58 AM »

Because Churches are usually named after saints that the founders held dear to them. And most Orthodox hold dear to them the saints of their culture. That's the same in RCism. You don't find a church in italy named after a Vietnamese saint *usually*.  If you wish to found Sts Columba and Patrick Orthodox Church though, please, do so! Smiley  I am glad knowledge of pre-schism Latin saints is growing again in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2007, 03:19:15 PM »

Why is it that you never find an Orthodox Church named after a Celtic or Latin Saint? Why are there no "St. Patrick Orthodox church", "St. Columba Orthodox church" , or "St. Sebastian Orthodox church"Huh I have never even seen a Celtic or Latin saint on any Iconistasis. Have any of you??

This is the parish of a friend of mine from seminary---he's a priest in the Western Rite Vicariate of the AOC:

http://www.stcolumbachurch.org/

« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 03:19:50 PM by FrChris » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2007, 12:49:40 AM »

Here are some Latin/Celtic saints with communities named after them in the Orthodox Church (noting these are communities of both rites in canonical Orthodox churches) :

St. Benedict of Nursia, St. Bertelin, St. Dunstan, St. Colman, St. Petroc, St. Fursey, St. Dyfan, St. Helen of Colchester, St. Cuthbert, St. Feuillan, Our Lady of Glastonbury, St. Gildas, St. Eanswythe, St. Gregory of Tours, St. Kenelm, St. Augustine, St. Columba, St. Kentigern, St. Keyna, St. Gregory the Great, Our Lady of Regla, St. Vincent of Lerins, Our Lady of Walsingham, Our Lady of Grace, St. Aidan, All Saints of Lincolnshire, St. Aethelheard, St. Edward, St. Brendan, St. Botolph, St. Theodore of Canterbury (given, the last was in origin Byzantine - but he was in England, and upheld the English uses in those dioceses he was restoring the the Church in local Councils rather than imposing the Byzantine use he was formed and ordained in - so, he is Western by adoption whether called 'of Tarsus' or 'of Canterbury'.)

That is a non-exhaustive list - just some that I've heard of. There are more, of course.
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2007, 07:25:21 PM »

Awesome! I appreciate the list! Very encouraging!
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O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2007, 09:57:24 PM »

That is a great list, Aristibule! I can just add a little bit. That tendency of naming Orthodox parishes in honor of Western Saints is growing in UK.
http://www.thyateira.org.uk/index.htm
http://www.exarchate-uk.org/Directory/Parishes/parishes_index.html

Also, icons of pre-schism British Saints can be found in British churches.
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2007, 11:22:42 PM »

There are also, some parishes withnin the Romanian Patriarchate, named after St. John Cassian, St. Germanus of Dobrogea (Scythia Minor), St. Ambrose of Milan and, I think, St. Nicetas of Remessiana. But I don't know whether all of the above mentioned are "Western" enough.
And there are  several martyrs from among the Goths of Dacia, as well: Sava of Buzau, Sansala the priest and Nicephorus the Goth.
Here is a French Monastery named after St. Martin of Tours, under the jurisdictin of the Romanian Metropolia of   Western and Southern Europe:
http://www.monastere-cantauque.com/monastere.html
And two other monasteries under the same Metropolia:
St. Anthony and Cuthbert in the UK
http://www.orthodox-monastery.co.uk/
St. Gregory the Armenian, who lived in France:
http://www.monasteresaintgregoire.net/
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 12:19:13 AM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2007, 11:53:45 PM »

There is a parish in Catham, Kent, under the British Orthodox Church that is named after the first British martyr, St. Alban.
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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2007, 12:03:49 AM »

St. John Cassian and St. Ambrose of Milan are Western enough - the first is so important that Western monasticism would not exist without him (the other important saint in that regard being St. Benedict of Nursia.) The second is important enough to be in the 'big four' of Western theologian saints along with St. Augustine of Hippo, St. Gregory the Great, and St. Hilary of Poitiers. St. John Cassian is another of those - born in the East as a Scythian, formed in the desert monasteries of Egypt and Palestine, but important for his Western works.
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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2007, 04:41:14 AM »

Our local Antiochian church (which I went to once for vespers the evening before the Sunday of Orthodoxy) is named after Sts. Columba and Kentigern. I have to admit to not having even been familiar with the latter before I went. Of course, they do have western saints on their iconostasis.

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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2007, 07:25:28 AM »

Anyone know of some good books on Celtic Orthodox Church life pre-schism? Thanks!
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2007, 01:42:25 AM »

Innocent,

I have a CD of a sermon called "The uniqueness of Celtic Monasticism" by a ROCOR priest. I got it from the Russian Cathedral in San Francisco where St. John Maximovich lays. They have a good Orthodox supply store over there.

Are there any Romanians on this board?? Nevasta mia este din Romania! Pot sa vorbesc putin Romaneste!

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Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2007, 09:27:57 AM »

Are there any Romanians on this board?? Nevasta mia este din Romania! Pot sa vorbesc putin Romaneste!

Sfinte Dumnezeule, Sfinte tare, Sfinte fara de moarte, miluieste-ne pe noi !

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There is a Romanian Language thread under "Romance Languages" in the Foreign Language forum.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2007, 12:41:23 PM by cleveland » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2007, 09:29:54 AM »

Awesome! Thank you very much!

Innocent,

I have a CD of a sermon called "The uniqueness of Celtic Monasticism" by a ROCOR priest. I got it from the Russian Cathedral in San Francisco where St. John Maximovich lays. They have a good Orthodox supply store over there.
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2007, 05:29:43 PM »

I would love to see a St. Patrick Orthodox Church.

His day is pretty big in our Parish because there's such a large Irish population in Maine. We have about 3 icons of him.
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2007, 08:05:23 AM »

Innocent,

I have a CD of a sermon called "The uniqueness of Celtic Monasticism" by a ROCOR priest. I got it from the Russian Cathedral in San Francisco where St. John Maximovich lays. They have a good Orthodox supply store over there.

Are there any Romanians on this board?? Nevasta mia este din Romania! Pot sa vorbesc putin Romaneste!

Sfinte Dumnezeule, Sfinte tare, Sfinte fara de moarte, miluieste-ne pe noi !

-Orthodox Bagpiper

I'm another 'adoptive' Romanian. I married a girl from Siret, Jud. Suceava and also speak Romanian (it's 'mea', by the way, not 'mia') and even do the translations for our parish (a Romanian one in the UK). There are a few (3 I think) actual Romanians on the board also.

James
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2007, 02:37:59 PM »

Innocent wrote:

Quote
Anyone know of some good books on Celtic Orthodox Church life pre-schism? Thanks!

There haven't really been any good books written from the Orthodox perspective. The one attempt I'm aware of came off trying to just portray the insular churches as Byzantines.

I can suggest a few introductory sources, and can suggest more in depth in other areas. Those listed below are a good introduction into the subject. Otherwise, the best thing to do is read the primary sources.

Introductory works:

* Celtic Christianity -- Making Myths, Chasing Dreams (Edinburgh, 1999) Ian Bradley
* The Quest for Celtic Christianity (Edinburgh, 2000) Donald Meek
* Journeys on the Edge - the Celtic Tradition (London, 2000) Thomas O'Loughlin (OUT OF PRINT)
* Celtic Theology - Humanity, World and God in Early Irish Writings (London, 2000) Thomas O'Loughlin
* Celtic Christianity in Early Medieval Wales (Cardiff, 1995) Oliver Davies
* Celts and Christians (University of Wales Press, 2002) ed. Mark Atherton
* The Modern Traveller to the Early Irish Church (Four Courts Press, 1995) Kathleen Hughes and Ann Hamlin
* An Introduction to Celtic Christianity (Edinburgh, 1989) ed. James Mackey (OUT OF PRINT)

Primary sources include various Monastic rules, Immrama/Navigatio stories, Lives of Saints, Liturgical books (Stowe, Bangor, etc.), scriptural and theological writings (such as Bede or St. Adomnan), penitentials, canons (Irish and Welsh/British), and the whole sub-literature of Anglo-Saxon Christianity which is derivative of the Celtic. There are also some other categories of literature. Pretty much, any literature we have that is Celtic is Christian, as the only Celts that wrote anything down were Christian monks and clergy. I've been meaning to catalogue all works available in translation or otherwise.
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2007, 02:56:47 PM »

There haven't really been any good books written from the Orthodox perspective. The one attempt I'm aware of came off trying to just portray the insular churches as Byzantines.

Do you mean this: http://www.ctosonline.org/historical/ED.html

I was considering buying it out of curiosity, would you say it is worth 5.50 or no?
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2007, 04:44:12 PM »

5.50? Sure. But what he writes isn't anything new to anyone in the field. The Copts are quick to point out, however, that the Egyptian Monasticism is Coptic rather than Byzantine (they're right), but the 'character' of Irish/Celtic monasticism is not Byzantine or Coptic, but Western. I own a copy of that book, though I've lent it out at the moment.

The important thing to understand is that Celtic monasticism is not simply transplanted Byzantine or Coptic monasticism (or Syrian or Assyrian, etc.) It isn't really translplanted Roman monasticism.

The origins first claimed are Apostolic, similar to the Canons Regular. The Canons Regular hold that the Apostles lived a life as eremitic priests around the Bishop - they have their tradition from the Apostles, with a codification of the rules by St. Augustine of Hippo, and the final form given in the kingdom of Charlemagne. Early Celtic monasticism had this priestly and eremitic (hermits) character, as the legend of St. Joseph of Arimathea's twelve priestly hermits at Glastonbury. The cenobitic tradition comes not directly from Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Armenia or Greece but rather from Gaul. Cenobitic lay monasticism in the Celtic lands depends on the writings of St. John Cassian - so, Eastern only indirectly. The rules are entirely native, however, being in fact older than the Benedictine rule. That being said, the two Celtic traditions over time became largely absorbed into either the life of the Canons Regular (Austin 'Black' or Norbertine 'White'), or into that of the Monks (Benedictine or Cistercian.) It was St. Dunstan who as Abbot of Glastonbury remade that community into the Benedictine at the same time the Celi De had developed as a reform of the older Celtic monasticism in the Gaelic areas. So, again - not simply a Byzantine export or of Byzantine character - though of Orthodox character.
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2007, 08:35:18 AM »

Great list Aristibule! Thank you!


Innocent wrote:

There haven't really been any good books written from the Orthodox perspective. The one attempt I'm aware of came off trying to just portray the insular churches as Byzantines.

I can suggest a few introductory sources, and can suggest more in depth in other areas. Those listed below are a good introduction into the subject. Otherwise, the best thing to do is read the primary sources.

Introductory works:

* Celtic Christianity -- Making Myths, Chasing Dreams (Edinburgh, 1999) Ian Bradley
* The Quest for Celtic Christianity (Edinburgh, 2000) Donald Meek
* Journeys on the Edge - the Celtic Tradition (London, 2000) Thomas O'Loughlin (OUT OF PRINT)
* Celtic Theology - Humanity, World and God in Early Irish Writings (London, 2000) Thomas O'Loughlin
* Celtic Christianity in Early Medieval Wales (Cardiff, 1995) Oliver Davies
* Celts and Christians (University of Wales Press, 2002) ed. Mark Atherton
* The Modern Traveller to the Early Irish Church (Four Courts Press, 1995) Kathleen Hughes and Ann Hamlin
* An Introduction to Celtic Christianity (Edinburgh, 1989) ed. James Mackey (OUT OF PRINT)

Primary sources include various Monastic rules, Immrama/Navigatio stories, Lives of Saints, Liturgical books (Stowe, Bangor, etc.), scriptural and theological writings (such as Bede or St. Adomnan), penitentials, canons (Irish and Welsh/British), and the whole sub-literature of Anglo-Saxon Christianity which is derivative of the Celtic. There are also some other categories of literature. Pretty much, any literature we have that is Celtic is Christian, as the only Celts that wrote anything down were Christian monks and clergy. I've been meaning to catalogue all works available in translation or otherwise.
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2007, 08:56:20 AM »

5.50? Sure. But what he writes isn't anything new to anyone in the field. The Copts are quick to point out, however, that the Egyptian Monasticism is Coptic rather than Byzantine (they're right), but the 'character' of Irish/Celtic monasticism is not Byzantine or Coptic, but Western. I own a copy of that book, though I've lent it out at the moment.

The important thing to understand is that Celtic monasticism is not simply transplanted Byzantine or Coptic monasticism (or Syrian or Assyrian, etc.) It isn't really translplanted Roman monasticism.


This is very interesting Aristibule. If you don't mind me asking, do you know of any relationship between the Celts and the Copts? I have heard that we Copts had sent out missionaries to that area, and that there was some sort of relationship but I am unsure of the nature or the historical accuracy of such stories.

On the issue of monasticism, I've always held pride in the Coptic church for being the first to institute it, but I would truly rather think it a natural way of life for many Christians, and thus I would not really wish to say that my Coptic church "created" the monk's lifestyle, but rather that we "discovered" this lifestyle. I don't think my ideas are very orthodox in comparision to others Copts, but I would like to believe that if St. Anthony had never gone to the desert, or any Egyptian monks for that matter, that the monastic lifestyle would have come about through other churches as a natural response in some people to God's will.
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« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2007, 01:34:13 PM »

Quote
If you don't mind me asking, do you know of any relationship between the Celts and the Copts?

Sure, a pilgrimage to St. Menas was very important for Christians across Britain and Ireland. Small flasks bearing the imae of St. Mena are very common artifacts in archaeological sites in the Isles. Other Easterners were important as well - St. Ephrem the Syrian was well known, as were many other Eastern fathers (the Cappadocians, etc.)

There also were a few places where Coptic monks were in Celtic monasteries. This was also true of other nations (Armenians, Syrians, Romans, Greeks, Saxons, Frisians, etc.) However, the lists that include them suggest they were later after the Church and monasticism was already firmly established in the area. No evidence that they did Coptic liturgy though. The contemporary descriptions affirm three schools of liturgy having connection either with Spain and Gaul, Rome, or Milan. The latter has a connection to Alexandria as their liturgical use (now mixed with the Roman) also originated with St. Mark, though St. Ambrose enriched it.
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