Poll

What language(s) can you speak/write in (does not need to be fluent)?

English
192 (31.9%)
Greek
52 (8.7%)
A Slavic Language
52 (8.7%)
Romanian
11 (1.8%)
Spanish/Spanish Derivitive
57 (9.5%)
Romance (Italian, French, etc)
68 (11.3%)
German/Germanic
50 (8.3%)
Swahili/African
4 (0.7%)
Arabic
24 (4%)
Coptic
7 (1.2%)
Klingon/Binary/Other Artificial Language
20 (3.3%)
Not listed.  Boo!
64 (10.6%)

Total Members Voted: 210

Author Topic: What languages do we speak on OC.net?  (Read 101798 times)

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Offline Dominika

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #270 on: April 06, 2019, 03:15:45 AM »

Actually, there is no "liturgical" Arabic. It's just Arabic that's used for writing, official occassions and for basics in teaching foreirgners Arabic and its dialects.

I would say that liturgical Arabic is its own stylistic register that does sound somewhat quirky if you're not used to it. If you pay really close attention, you can occasionally catch Syriacisms in some hymns that were translated from Syriac originally-- using 'min' to express the agent of a passive, for example (in good Classical Arabic there's no way to express that, while in modern newspaper-language you say 'min qibal').

Do you remember any example?
Maybe because I don't know Syriac, I can't 'catch' such things...
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Offline Samn!

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #271 on: April 06, 2019, 03:44:22 AM »

Actually, there is no "liturgical" Arabic. It's just Arabic that's used for writing, official occassions and for basics in teaching foreirgners Arabic and its dialects.

I would say that liturgical Arabic is its own stylistic register that does sound somewhat quirky if you're not used to it. If you pay really close attention, you can occasionally catch Syriacisms in some hymns that were translated from Syriac originally-- using 'min' to express the agent of a passive, for example (in good Classical Arabic there's no way to express that, while in modern newspaper-language you say 'min qibal').

Do you remember any example?
Maybe because I don't know Syriac, I can't 'catch' such things...

So like in the troparion for the Resurrection, when it says إنّ الحجرلمّا خُتِم من اليهود saying من اليهود to express the agent of the passive verb خُتِم wouldn't be possible in normal literary Arabic but is normal in Syriac.

There are also quirks of liturgical Arabic that go back to the earliest translations from Greek. The ما يُرى وما لا يُرى of the Creed for "visible and invisible" is at the very least inelegant, if not just plain weird, in good Arabic style, but it's been in the text since the first translation from the beginning of the 9th century. It's worth noting that the text we use of the Creed, the Our Father and even to a certain extent the Psalms all go back to the earliest attempts at translating Greek into Arabic and were contemporary to the beginning of the invention of Classical Arabic proper, hundreds of kilometers away in Iraq.

Offline Dominika

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #272 on: April 06, 2019, 04:03:24 AM »
So like in the troparion for the Resurrection, when it says إنّ الحجرلمّا خُتِم من اليهود saying من اليهود to express the agent of the passive verb خُتِم wouldn't be possible in normal literary Arabic but is normal in Syriac.
Ah! I've treated it "normally" because it's actually the same structure as in the Church Slavonic and to first line of this troparion in this language I'm used to.

There are also quirks of liturgical Arabic that go back to the earliest translations from Greek. The ما يُرى وما لا يُرى of the Creed for "visible and invisible" is at the very least inelegant, if not just plain weird, in good Arabic style, but it's been in the text since the first translation from the beginning of the 9th century. It's worth noting that the text we use of the Creed, the Our Father and even to a certain extent the Psalms all go back to the earliest attempts at translating Greek into Arabic and were contemporary to the beginning of the invention of Classical Arabic proper, hundreds of kilometers away in Iraq.

Oh yeah, this verse indeed sounds strange while recitation.

Thanks, now I'll be more 'vigilant' ;)
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #273 on: April 06, 2019, 02:59:17 PM »
Modern

I perceive modern languages, typically formed in large cities were people from all over the world have an urgent need for basic communication in the local language causing it to simplify, omit the intellectual stuff that would be necessary for supporting a successful civilization. I understand that you wish to communicate with contemporaries, but I can't get myself to prefer modern over legacy.

Standard

Some people like unity a lot. I like dialects because they decentralise the thought process of society to the point where people become enpowered to make their own lives meaningful.

Arabic

I had joined the choir for a while in the local parish of socialist Svenska Kyrkan (the Swedish Church), and one evening after we had practiced, a lady in her 70:ies invited the four of us who were aged below 40 to a cup of coffee at her place. She had participated in the churche's programme to welcome, guide and teach immigrants and related that they had behaved "worse than the 'racists' had warned", with regard to sexual harassment.

We talked about many other things and as I found a dictionary in her library that I browsed through with interest, she asked about my language studies and what languages I would try to teach myself in the future. I responded that when I bought Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English lexicon and began to learn Hebrew and Syriac I promised myself that I would never have to study Arabic. It would be too much work, especially since Arabic is spoken in some twenty sovereign countries and therefor has a lot of synonyms and varieties. However, as more and more people around me spoke Arabic I could no longer afford to ignore it, so I would begin to teach myself some basics in a couple of weeks.

Her reaction surprised me a bit. She looked really sad and not triumphant or haughty as women usually are when lads mention their problems. I i r c, she had at least one son, and I thought I may have helped her understand his situation as well.

As we went home, I was glad that there was at least one woman among my acquaintances who was sympathetic towards my minorities. Unfortunately, this didn't last long. She made suicide next week.

I'm so sorry :'(
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #274 on: April 06, 2019, 06:52:06 PM »
Speaking of Ithkuil, I had no idea that this happened lol! Rapha, did you?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #275 on: April 07, 2019, 05:31:40 AM »
I'm really into Arabic dialects and I'd love to dive into Lebanese Arabic and get something in Classical (which is too similar to MSA to be studied apart), and I actually considered taking a dialect first, but Nika talked me out of it. :P So sorry about what happened, though... We never know what's in people's hearts.


Actually, there is no "liturgical" Arabic. It's just Arabic that's used for writing, official occassions and for basics in teaching foreirgners Arabic and its dialects.

I would say that liturgical Arabic is its own stylistic register that does sound somewhat quirky if you're not used to it. If you pay really close attention, you can occasionally catch Syriacisms in some hymns that were translated from Syriac originally-- using 'min' to express the agent of a passive, for example (in good Classical Arabic there's no way to express that, while in modern newspaper-language you say 'min qibal').

Do you remember any example?
Maybe because I don't know Syriac, I can't 'catch' such things...

So like in the troparion for the Resurrection, when it says إنّ الحجرلمّا خُتِم من اليهود saying من اليهود to express the agent of the passive verb خُتِم wouldn't be possible in normal literary Arabic but is normal in Syriac.

There are also quirks of liturgical Arabic that go back to the earliest translations from Greek. The ما يُرى وما لا يُرى of the Creed for "visible and invisible" is at the very least inelegant, if not just plain weird, in good Arabic style, but it's been in the text since the first translation from the beginning of the 9th century. It's worth noting that the text we use of the Creed, the Our Father and even to a certain extent the Psalms all go back to the earliest attempts at translating Greek into Arabic and were contemporary to the beginning of the invention of Classical Arabic proper, hundreds of kilometers away in Iraq.
That's all really interesting... I love this kind of "intrusion".

Speaking of Ithkuil, I had no idea that this happened lol! Rapha, did you?
Which part, the one of Ithkuil suddenly invading Rusnet? No, but it's nice!
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #276 on: April 07, 2019, 06:33:08 AM »
Which part, the one of Ithkuil suddenly invading Rusnet? No, but it's nice!

Yeah lol. I wonder if those people are still operating. It sounds like a Russian combination of Scientology and Heaven's Gate.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #277 on: April 07, 2019, 06:46:24 AM »
Esperanto was also spread among a not far less quirky community.  :-X
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #278 on: April 07, 2019, 07:03:32 AM »
Esperanto was also spread among a not far less quirky community.  :-X

Yeah, but the Esperantists always struck me as mostly wooly headed, Very NiceTM bourgeois liberals (case in point, George Soros). I'm sure there's a lot of overlap in the psychoneticists, but they also seem a bit more militant and conspiracy theory minded. Maybe I've got an obstructed view, though.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #279 on: April 07, 2019, 07:19:27 AM »
That's true nowadays, but the Esperanto movement was very strange in its first years and still nowadays particularly in Brazil there are some "Esperanto is spoken in heaven" weirdos around.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline sestir

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #280 on: April 07, 2019, 10:09:14 AM »
I actually considered taking a dialect first, but Nika talked me out of it. :P [...] We never know what's in people's hearts.

I see. It's okay. I had an allergic reaction to the phrase "modern standard Arabic". I was surprised and wrote a post to find out what was in my heart.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #281 on: April 07, 2019, 02:28:57 PM »
That's true nowadays, but the Esperanto movement was very strange in its first years and still nowadays particularly in Brazil there are some "Esperanto is spoken in heaven" weirdos around.

Ah, ok lol.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 02:29:09 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #282 on: April 13, 2019, 07:15:34 PM »
Does anybody else find that memorizing texts in a language doesn't help your vocabulary as much as you feel like it should?

Like, you know the words in the context of that exact passage, but you have a hard time mentally plucking them out of that context and using them to generate unique sentences?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #283 on: April 13, 2019, 07:26:42 PM »
Does anybody else find that memorizing texts in a language doesn't help your vocabulary as much as you feel like it should?

Like, you know the words in the context of that exact passage, but you have a hard time mentally plucking them out of that context and using them to generate unique sentences?
Fluency and knowledge are almost two separate areas in a language. On one hand there is the broken but fluent English spoken by illiterate immigrants, and on the other I've met people who could read Shakespeare but not handle a conversation (my grandpa included!)

So in terms of knowledge I believe memorising phrases, specially in contexts such as songs, poems or biblical excerpts, to be an amazing tool for knowledge. But fluency is another deal.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #284 on: April 13, 2019, 07:31:03 PM »
Does anybody else find that memorizing texts in a language doesn't help your vocabulary as much as you feel like it should?

Like, you know the words in the context of that exact passage, but you have a hard time mentally plucking them out of that context and using them to generate unique sentences?
Fluency and knowledge are almost two separate areas in a language. On one hand there is the broken but fluent English spoken by illiterate immigrants, and on the other I've met people who could read Shakespeare but not handle a conversation (my grandpa included!)

So in terms of knowledge I believe memorising phrases, specially in contexts such as songs, poems or biblical excerpts, to be an amazing tool for knowledge. But fluency is another deal.

Good points.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #285 on: April 13, 2019, 07:42:45 PM »
Not sure if an appropriate place to ask, but I really need to understand the main points of two videos in Russian for my research (one lasting 20 minutes, another 4). Not a translation, just listing relevant information. Would anyone take a shot? I'm almost paying a professional translator.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Sethrak

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #286 on: April 13, 2019, 11:48:18 PM »
Everything is taken ~ almost ~ but ~ Some English, Spanish, Italian yev Armenian ~ ya ~ let me add French, still remember a bit and Latin ```
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 11:52:06 PM by Sethrak »
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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #287 on: April 14, 2019, 08:01:13 AM »
Does anybody else find that memorizing texts in a language doesn't help your vocabulary as much as you feel like it should?

Like, you know the words in the context of that exact passage, but you have a hard time mentally plucking them out of that context and using them to generate unique sentences?


Absolutely no, I have bad experience from the last year - it's been the first and I hope the last time in my whole education that I didn't sleep in order to learn something:

Again, thank you all for the prayer, an update:
tomorrow in the morning I'll have the last exam from Arabic. Unfortunately, it's recitation two texts about water crisis that should be learn by heart. Despite learning them this week (and I have 1 or 2 exams a day this week, so I'm really tirecd), every day, a few times  a day, I know for now only one of them. Through the whole life I was really bad at memorising texts word by word, I remember always the sens. Arab professors gave us normal exams, apropriate for the last year (giving 1,5 hour lecture in Arabic about a medicine topic, write an essay about sociological and historical stuff), but this Polish professor doesn't agree that e.g I can pass one text tomorrow and anotehr one on Monday, despite teh fact the exams can last until the end of June - he only agrees that I (and another friend) can pass it in September, but it's the second term. So, if I don't pass it, despite the fact my master is almost ready (400 pages A4), that I passed other exams from Arabic studies ant theology, all these things actually will be uselss, as my promoter of the thesis (if I don't give him the ready thesis on 26th June and I can do it only if pass all subjects) will be in October, so it means no Lebanon, no PhD and I'm almost 27, all these family problems... i just want to graduate and move on.


I suppose it depends on the person, though.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #288 on: April 14, 2019, 12:33:08 PM »
Yeah, we seem to be similar in that regard.

For example, I don't know hardly any Scriptures by chapter and verse, let alone verbatim. I just remember them as "That part where such and such happened..." and then I'll remember a snippet of a few words. I then always have to go and look them up to get the rest.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 12:34:13 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline WPM

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #289 on: April 14, 2019, 12:36:28 PM »
Right now I'm typing in English
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Offline Orthodox_Slav

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #290 on: April 14, 2019, 02:24:39 PM »
Right now I'm typing in English

i see....

we all are right now
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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #291 on: April 14, 2019, 02:45:53 PM »
Nein. Jetzt bin ich auf Deutsch eintippe. ;D

"No. Now I'm typing in German."

Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #292 on: April 25, 2019, 12:33:53 AM »
Found a third degree burn found on page 31 of Mark Rosenfelder's Advanced Language Construction. Talking about whether "weird" non-English features are something to shoot for in your conlang-

Quote
If you're creating an auxlang, you don't want weirdness per se, but if your idea can be described as "Esperanto done right", be aware that Esperanto is blandly European and that its creator would have done well to learn a lot more about Amerindian or East Asian languages.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Agabus

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #293 on: April 25, 2019, 10:25:54 AM »
Found a third degree burn found on page 31 of Mark Rosenfelder's Advanced Language Construction. Talking about whether "weird" non-English features are something to shoot for in your conlang-

Quote
If you're creating an auxlang, you don't want weirdness per se, but if your idea can be described as "Esperanto done right", be aware that Esperanto is blandly European and that its creator would have done well to learn a lot more about Amerindian or East Asian languages.

I have an acquaintance from college who constantly posts in Esperanto on FB. It took me several tries to figure out what it was at first because I kept mistaking it for other European languages.
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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #294 on: April 25, 2019, 10:50:21 AM »
Yeah, with every noun ending in -o, at first I always just think it's Spanish or Italian.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #295 on: April 25, 2019, 03:55:28 PM »
That's true nowadays, but the Esperanto movement was very strange in its first years and still nowadays particularly in Brazil there are some "Esperanto is spoken in heaven" weirdos around.

Btw, while the Conglang Critic is not always the highest quality, his war of words with a supremely rustled Esperantist is pretty hilarious to see (the top pinned comments- language of video and comments slightly NSFW). I suppose there are still some crazy Esperantists left lol.

Jan's original review of Esperanto.

Also, this lol. And the beautiful trainwreck that is Vötgil, since it kind of comes up.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: What languages do we speak on OC.net?
« Reply #296 on: May 15, 2019, 05:37:45 AM »
Btw, while the Conglang Critic is not always the highest quality, his war of words with a supremely rustled Esperantist is pretty hilarious to see (the top pinned comments- language of video and comments slightly NSFW). I suppose there are still some crazy Esperantists left lol.
lol, amazing... I really get why there are so many people in the Esperanto movement: it's by far the most successful auxlang (unless you want to troll Modern Hebrew speakers saying it's an auxlang too), and there's all this history behind it. But why on Earth would someone learn Ido, Interlingua or Volapük nowadays? Volapukajho...  ;)

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Jan's original review of Esperanto.
He mentioned PHOIBLE! I was looking like crazy for this site and so frustrated I couldn't remember the name... BTW, I use all of Esperanto sounds in my normal Portuguese speech.  8)  /x/ and /h/ are allophones (quite inconsistent, close to free variation), as are /tS/ and /dZ/ to /t/ and /d/; and /ts/ would only appear in loanwords; but still, this negates his point that none of the world major languages have a matching set.

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Also, this lol
LOL
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 05:40:59 AM by RaphaCam »
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