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Poll
Question: How does your parish recite The Lord's Prayer during Liturgy?
Choir Sings - 4 (13.8%)
Congregation Recites - 12 (41.4%)
Reader Intones - 0 (0%)
Congregation Intones - 5 (17.2%)
Congregation Sings - 8 (27.6%)
Total Voters: 29

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Author Topic: Said or sung Lord's prayer  (Read 3163 times) Average Rating: 0
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scamandrius
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« on: February 07, 2007, 10:37:29 AM »

At choir practice last night, we were practicing Tchaikovsky's Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  We're not doing the whole thing, the Cherubimic Hymn, the Anaphora, a few litanies, etc.  With all of the composed divine liturgies, I have heard, there is always a setting of the Lord's Prayer, many of which are very beautiful, especially, to my mind, the Lord's Prayer set in Rachmaninov's Divine Liturgy op. 10.  I really wish we could sing it, but apparently that is not the case?  How many of you belong to parishes where you sing/chant the Lord's prayer instead of saying it?  I would compose a poll, but I don't know how to do that! Grin  And would anyone be able to say why saying it is preferred to having it sung by the choir?

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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2007, 11:34:45 AM »

I have never belonged to a parish that has sung the Lord's prayer, but then again from my experience it isn't sung in Greek parishes (and the one or two exceptions have imported it as a Slavic thing they add to their repertoire).  I suppose, if one goes by how things "should be" done, nothing should be read per se, but instead should be intoned at the least (χύμα in Greek).
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2007, 11:51:49 AM »

Many of Tchaikovsky's and Rachmaninov's liturgical works are concert pieces that are were intended to be used in actual liturgical services. They wrote them because the greats of western music (Bach, Mozart) had also written liturgical concerts and they wanted to showcase the Orthodox service. It is because of a need to set the entire service to music for the concerts that you now end up with musical setting for "The Lords Prayer" and "St. Symeon's Prayer." These concerts became very popular in the west and were translated into German and English so when people left Russia and established parishes in the in Germany and America these are the musical settings they would use since they were the only settings in the language of the country and thus it became tradition to sing the Lords prayer. After the Revolution the setting became popular in Russia because of their Russian nature and new composers created liturgical works based on what had been done by Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky.

If you look at the Byzantine or the early Russian settings you will not find music for "The Lord's Prayer" or "St. Symeon's Prayer (except for the feast of the presentation)" but that does not mean it is a wrong practice. It has become the custom in many of the Russian and psedo-Russian parishes to sing "The Lord's Prayer" and I wanted to give the historical reason behind it.
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2007, 11:59:08 AM »

I created a poll (so everyone nows it is the last option on the same line were you find the start new topic) for this topic. I think I covered every scenario possible so if your parish does something not listed they are obviously wrong (j/k).

Sings = from sheet music
Intones = monotone chant
Recite = plainly spoken
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 12:03:48 PM by arimethea » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2007, 12:02:10 PM »

Although I'm not really a fan of concertized pieces in general myself (especially in the liturgy), I do like Kedrov's setting of Oche Nash.

In our parish the Lord's prayer is sung or chanted.
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2007, 12:08:03 PM »

I have never belonged to a parish that has sung the Lord's prayer, but then again from my experience it isn't sung in Greek parishes (and the one or two exceptions have imported it as a Slavic thing they add to their repertoire).  I suppose, if one goes by how things "should be" done, nothing should be read per se, but instead should be intoned at the least (χύμα in Greek).

Our OCA parish has always sung (choir and people) the Lord's Prayer in English during Liturgy(20+ years). This was also the case in the Carpatho-Russian parish of my youth--sung first in Slavonic and then again in English. We recite the Lord's Prayer during Vespers and the Hours.
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2007, 12:10:09 PM »

We sing it - to a harmonized Lesser Znammeny chant melody.  Nice and prayerful...not sappy like the Kedrov arrangement, for example.

Most 19th century "Russian" stuff is verboten in our parish - our priest vetos it.
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2007, 12:35:00 PM »

Although I'm not really a fan of concertized pieces in general myself (especially in the liturgy), I do like Kedrov's setting of Oche Nash.

In our parish the Lord's prayer is sung or chanted.

Btw, I hadn't seen your response when I wrote mine.
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2007, 12:40:10 PM »

Our OCA parish has always sung (choir and people) the Lord's Prayer in English during Liturgy(20+ years). This was also the case in the Carpatho-Russian parish of my youth--sung first in Slavonic and then again in English. We recite the Lord's Prayer during Vespers and the Hours. 

This makes perfect sense - my observation is that it's a "Slavic" thing... No problem with it, just noting the Liturgical tradition, of course.

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Edit -

Hmmm.... I wonder, do the RC's do it?  I seem to recall the brothers chanting it every once and awhile in High School (Benedictine), but it's been awhile.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 12:41:35 PM by cleveland » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2007, 12:47:52 PM »

In my Ruthenian Catholic parish we (*gasp*) intone it via prostopinije. 

In the RC parish I attend occasionally, they usually chant it Gregorian style, in English.  Come to think of it, in most every RC parish I've been to in the past ten years, it's been chanted the same way.  I can think of only two where it was just recited.
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2007, 12:48:48 PM »

In my visits to parishes of differing jurisdictions I have noticed that the Byzantine Churches (Antiochian and Greek Orthodox) tend to recite and the Slavic (OCA. Moscow Patriractae, ROCOR, etc) tend to sing or intone the prayer. It is probably a "t"radition thing rather than a Holy Tradition held by all Orthodox Churches.

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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2007, 03:48:57 PM »

In Carpatho-Rusyn tradition the Our Father is set to all 8 Samohlasen Tones, Tone 4 Podoben, and simple chant settings.
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2007, 10:48:57 PM »

Usually tone 5 octe nas, Prostopinije.  Although like Deacon Lance stated, it's written up for every tone. 
I've been to places where it's recited.  When we start holding hands and swaying to the beat during the Our Father I'd worry, but other than that, recited, choir-ed up, or chanted, it's all good.   The best response to what is correct in your diocese/jurisdiction would be to know what the Bishop says about that matter.  If he says, "no recited Our Fathers," well, I would ensure the cantor/choir knew how to sing it.
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2007, 07:30:13 PM »

At one Serbian church they sing it in Church Slavonic, then read it in English. 

99% of Serbian churches I've been to sing the Our Father in at least one language. 

The 1% is the times that the church only has a chanter and the chanter doesn't feel like singing it (a.k.a. me and my experiences at my dad's church  Wink)
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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2007, 09:59:37 PM »

In most Ukrainian churches they sing it, according to the linguistic rules of the parish, in other words or in English and Ukrainian at parishes with bilingual services, or in one of this languages, when most / all of the service is performed in this language.


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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2007, 11:32:53 PM »

In my WR parish, the prayer is either spoken congregationally or sung recto tono, depending on whether Fr. remembers to start it off with the latter or not.

In the traditional Latin rite, the Lord's prayer is chanted solo by the priest, with only the last line ("sed libera nos a malo") sung by the choir. Does anyone know if any of our WR parishes follow this practice?
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