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Author Topic: Archbishop Lazar Puhalo  (Read 21231 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 05, 2007, 10:14:02 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Greetings all,
Has anyone read any of the books by Archbishop Lazar Puhalo? I have recently come across a news item mentioning him as an author from Canada, a member of the OCA, possibly a convert? A quick Google took me to Synaxis Press, where they have several titles authored in his name, but I do not know anything about him at all.

I am interested to know more about him and if his materials are worth a reading. I thought you erudite individuals here could help me out!  Grin

Thanks a bunch in advance!

Michael
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2007, 10:37:50 PM »

You are about to unleash a hornet's nest of controversy! LOL
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2007, 10:56:14 PM »

I used his arguments against the ordination of women in a recent paper of mine, dealing with gender identity and the prophetic roles respected to each sex. It was very interesting.

On another note, he seems to be very anti-Rose on the question of Toll Houses (claiming Fr. Seraphim Rose is a gnosticizing cookoo). That is the one controversy I've seen in his works/polemics.
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2007, 02:59:40 AM »

Controversy? Nah! What's so controversial about a defrocked deacon bouncing from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, until he can finally retire in peace as an "Archbishop" in a legit Orthodox body?  Cool One curious thing about Lev's beliefs is that he considered John of Kronstadt a closet homosexual who may have had affairs with men while conducting missionary work. Some of Lev's other sexual positions (no pun intended) are equally unorthodox. Just ask him, he has problems containing himself on that subject (at least he did when I spoke to him years ago), he'll probably let some cats out of the bag if you listen carefully.
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2007, 03:26:42 AM »

Be careful about accusations that you make.  Although no fan of the archbishop, I've never heard of him being a defrocked deacon.  From what I can understand, he was consecrated a bishop in the Milan synod just before that group started to become more and more vagante.
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2007, 03:39:13 AM »

Has anyone read any of the books by Archbishop Lazar Puhalo? I have recently come across a news item mentioning him as an author from Canada, a member of the OCA, possibly a convert? A quick Google took me to Synaxis Press, where they have several titles authored in his name, but I do not know anything about him at all.

I am interested to know more about him and if his materials are worth a reading. I thought you erudite individuals here could help me out!  Grin

I've glanced at his books from time to time.  I know that some people like them.  From what little I can remember, I found them kind of odd.  I don't remember why. 

Unlike several people on this forum, I am no great fan of Fr Seraphim Rose.  However, I find the almost vindictive way in which the archbishop attacks Fr Seraphim's ideas about toll houses to be kind of strange.

Archbishop Lazar was for a long time in canonical limbo until he was received as a retired archbishop in the OCA. 
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 06:48:47 AM »

From what I can understand, he was consecrated a bishop in the Milan synod just before that group started to become more and more vagante.

The Milan Synod is non-Canonical status church in communion with the Old Calendarists how is that vagante?
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 09:39:07 AM »

The guys real name is Ron Haler IIRC.  He was defrocked and laicized by the ROCOR for some reason (he was a deacon).  Then I think he bounced around.  I'm not sure how he ended up in the OCA or why they made him an archbishop.  I would think that's actually going to be an issue if the MP and ROCOR patch things up.

I don't know about his books or theology in great detail, but he has some weird ideas in general.  He believes for instance that the United States and the World Trade Organization would like to take over Canada and are engaged in a conspiracy to do so.

http://friendsoffreedom.org/article.php?sid=80

He also believes that NATO is a front organization for the "New World Order" that is run by America with intent to enslave other nations.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a376572db6551.htm

Sadly the Antiochians have given the guy a platform at a recent meeting of theirs (on top of letting in the OCL).

Bad news in my opinion.  What I have read of him leads me to believe he is of the Anti-Western Orthodox (not the rite) ilk.
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 11:25:57 AM »

Be careful about accusations that you make.  Although no fan of the archbishop, I've never heard of him being a defrocked deacon.  From what I can understand, he was consecrated a bishop in the Milan synod just before that group started to become more and more vagante.

It's true that he was defrocked by ROCOR.  Do a google search on Lev Puhalo and it will turn up.

He was in fact ordained by the Milan Synod which is why the OCA received him as a bishop. And yes, within a few years they were quite off the wall.
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 11:29:51 AM »

The Milan Synod is non-Canonical status church in communion with the Old Calendarists how is that vagante?

They are NOT in communion with the Old Calendarist Church of Greece; they have fallen into vagante status because they have started taking in Old Catholic bishops without ordination, have a bishop that is a 3rd order carmelite in the RCC at the same time, etc etc etc.  Vagante and Old Calendarist are very different animals with differing aims and circumstances.

To reiterate, the Milan Synod came from the Old Calendarist Church but quickly after separating from the Synod fell into vaganteism.

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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2007, 11:43:52 AM »

This has been gone over before here - http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,146.msg1639.html#msg1639

The theological issues of 'the former Deacon, Lev Puhalo' are discussed online at http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/tollhouse_debate.aspx (noting, I don't recommend everything on that site.) The matter is from Orthodox Life , 1981.

That OCA received him is still baffling in part (only in the suggestion that some spite to ROCOR might have been intended) - but he was received as retired (without the active ministry of a bishop) he still travels to teach the same things. It was the Serbs who ordained him to the priesthood in 1981 immediately after he was defrocked and laicized by ROCOR. He had left them within the decade, and was made bishop by the Milan Synod in 1990. (According to a number of my bishops, Milan Synod was already considered vagante at this time.) He left them to be an Archbishop for the 'UOC-KP', another group considered vagante before OCA finally received him. The point though, even if he is received he is *retired* as the canons require for a bishop returning from heretics or schismatics (they would be received as either retired bishops, or archimandrites/archpriests without the ability to ever be an active bishop again.) The same happened with Fr. Alexander Turner - he was in the OCCA under the Metropolia in the early '30s, then made Bishop by Bp. Ignatius Nichols after they had split from the Church. When Fr. Alexander returned the Clerks of St. Basil to the Church by Antioch, he was made a mitred archpriest which he remained until his death. So, the manner of Lazar Puhalo's reception could be seen in that light. The irregularity I think is that it wasn't a return to that part of the Church with which he had his disagreement.
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2007, 12:47:06 PM »

Seems like quite a character!

I don't think I will be buying his books.

Thanks for the responses.

Michael
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2007, 09:25:49 PM »

I heard he was ordained a hieromonk by the FREE Serbs.  His theology is weird yet he has credibility with a lot of fringe people.
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2007, 10:53:25 PM »

I heard he was ordained a hieromonk by the FREE Serbs.  His theology is weird yet he has credibility with a lot of fringe people.

Deacon: ROCOR
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2007, 11:26:16 PM »

It's true that he was defrocked by ROCOR.  Do a google search on Lev Puhalo and it will turn up.

All I found was people on the e-cafe asserting that he was defrocked by ROCOR.  This qualifies as hearsay, as far as I am concerned, but if you want to post a link that shows clearly he was defrocked, that would be fine.  Serge (the young fogey), had stated in the 2002 thread that he was suspended by ROCOR, and not defrocked.
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2007, 12:55:33 AM »

I've met the Bishop once and like him and his writings very much. He was defrocked because, to be blunt, he "wouldn't shut up about the toll house issue." He argues the Toll houses are gnostic (see other forums). ROCOR, in the midst of this debate stated that issue of the Toll houses was a "theological opinion" and left it at that. Instead of letting the issue then "die" (so to speak) the deacon continued his arguments against the Toll Houses and was disciplined by being laicized.

As an english speaking Orthodox, one thing I really admire about him is his promotion of a Canadian English Orthodoxy.

He is not perfect, and either was Fr. Seraphim Rose.

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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2007, 02:30:09 AM »

bobba,

If you googlel it you will find a bit. If you don't trust poor justin and.or dustin then try contactin rocor directly an askin them. He was defrocked. Deal with it Wink  Love ya

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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2007, 05:11:05 AM »

Quote
He was defrocked because, to be blunt, he "wouldn't shut up about the toll house issue."

I don't understand the whole "toll house" thing, and my impression is it may be just some folk myth people are working themselves up about.  Regardless "Archbishop" Lazar was defrocked, and made the rounds with schismatic and apparently vagante groups.  The OCA took a defrocked deacon and made him not only a priest, but an Archbishop.  I don't know what they're thinking, nor do I understand why anyone would give such a person a platform to speak like the AOA is doing.

Now what will happen when the MP and ROCOR reconcile is anyone's guess, but I don't see how they could actually restore relations with the OCA considering they gave a defrocked and laicized deacon his faculties as a priest.  Same thing for the priest in the ROCOR who was defrocked by Metropolitan Herman when his parish would not accept the calendar change that was being forced on them by the then Bishop of Eastern Pa.
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2007, 10:50:37 AM »

It's not really that important to me on a personal level if he was defrocked or not.  It's just that the only proof I've seen of it is the semi-contradictory "say so" of internet posters on a few boards.  With all due respect to you, Welkodox, one reason why I say that it's kind of contradictory is because "laicized" is not really the same as  "defrocked."  A laicized cleric becomes a layman because he requests it.  A "defrocked" cleric is basically someone who is removed from the list of clergy against their will, as far as I know.  I guess this could possibly make quite a difference politically and administratively.  Some people say that archbishop Lazar was laicized, and some that he was defrocked.   Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it can be both.  Sorry, I'm not trying to split hairs.

I'm sure that he could well have had one or the other thing happen to him, and neither one is good.   Very possibly he was defrocked and there is simply no concrete evidence on the internet available. 
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2007, 11:46:37 AM »

Indeed there is a distinction which you are right to point out.  To me it still doesn't answer the question of:

Why the OCA took him in and gave him his faculties.
What this will do to ROCOR/OCA relations (including the issue of the other priest now in ROCOR).
Why other Orthodox groups are providing a platform for such a divisive personality in seminars ostensibly geared towards fostering unity.

I'm scratchin' me head.
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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2007, 05:37:46 PM »

God bless!+

This "Archbishop" is not only against Blessed Father Seraphim and his "gnostic" teachinng of the Toll Houses, he is against many many Saints and Elders of the orthodox church!

The teaching is not a folk myth, or gnostic it is an important, ancient ,traditional teaching of the pan-orthodox church and everyone can proof this!

You have to read and study the church fathers and you will come across often about this issue!

it is mentioned in the scripture
Saint Makarios,
Saint Athanasius the great mentioned it in the live of St, Antonius
Sain Basil the new (Blessed Theodora, Blessed Gregory his disciple)
Martyr Taxiotis
Saint Theophan the Recluse
Saint Ignatios or russia
Saint Justin of Serbia
St. Nikolaj of Zica
in the Philokalie
in the Evergentinos
Prolog of Ohrid
in the famous monastery of Rila in frescos are shown all 20 Stations
...............

And everyone who do not agree with him is guilty of sexual realtions or a heretic or gnostic!

I know some old calendarians from greece and usa and they all believe in the Toll houses!

In CHRIST
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2008, 12:40:00 AM »


I agree with Archbishop Lazar on the toll houses.
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2009, 04:44:28 AM »


Lazar believes in Evolution. I won't even dignify him with the title of Archbishop.
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2009, 04:52:10 AM »


Lazar believes in Evolution. I won't even dignify him with the title of Archbishop.

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« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2009, 12:42:26 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Has anyone read any of the books by Archbishop Lazar Puhalo?

I have read "For A Culture of Co-suffering Love" (Archive Publications) written by Andrew Sopko as part of a series synopsizing various theologians' beliefs, and "The Icon as Scripture," by Puhalo, as well as a number of his articles.   I find him a wonderful blend of creative intellectual thought with respect and mindfulness of the Holy Fathers and Mothers.  He is a person for our age, when so much of Orthodoxy's aspect to the World consists of clerics throwing punches and disparaging one another, even in the Tomb of our Lord itself.   If you are an educated person trying to be Orthodox in the world, this well-rounded author will present interesting solutions to some problems you may face, especially if you work and are knowledgeable in any scientific or technological field.  He, at least, tries to speak the truth in love.

{Edit - fixed quote box - Cleveland, Global Moderator}
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2009, 12:52:26 PM »

^ Serafima,

Christ is Risen!

Welcome to the Forum!
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« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2009, 10:18:00 PM »

i think he's ridiculous. if the toll-houses are Gnostic then we have Gnostic church services and prayers. he attacks the Sainthood of Augustine, he refuses to accept the Patristic understanding of Genesis, the list goes on and on. and he has never been a real archbishop. you can read Letters from Fr. Seraphim by Fr. Alexey Young to see some of the trouble they had with him when he was in ROCOR. its ridiculous.
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« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2009, 11:09:15 PM »

i think he's ridiculous. if the toll-houses are Gnostic then we have Gnostic church services and prayers. he attacks the Sainthood of Augustine, he refuses to accept the Patristic understanding of Genesis, the list goes on and on. and he has never been a real archbishop. you can read Letters from Fr. Seraphim by Fr. Alexey Young to see some of the trouble they had with him when he was in ROCOR. its ridiculous.

 Roll Eyes  Why am I not surprised that you find the Archbishop so objectionable, when you have just gone out of your way to revive this dormant thread about him and Fr. Seraphim Rose at almost precisely the same time, and are full of nothing but effusive praise for the work of Fr. Seraphim? Oh, and before you think that I am anti-Fr. Seraphim through-and-through, please note my post from some time ago on this thread:

I've glanced at his books from time to time.  I know that some people like them.  From what little I can remember, I found them kind of odd.  I don't remember why. 

Unlike several people on this forum, I am no great fan of Fr Seraphim Rose.  However, I find the almost vindictive way in which the archbishop attacks Fr Seraphim's ideas about toll houses to be kind of strange.

Archbishop Lazar was for a long time in canonical limbo until he was received as a retired archbishop in the OCA. 

Quote
....he refuses to accept the Patristic understanding of Genesis...

Oh, you mean that he does not agree with Fr. Seraphim's rather strange teachings on evolution?

Quote
....he attacks the sainthood of Augustine...

Lots of Orthodox have problems with St. Augustine on various levels.  Some do not.  I have to admit that I am not familiar with Archbishop Lazar's arguments, but just because you are absolutely convinced by Fr. Seraphim's support for St. Augustine it does not mean that everyone has to agree with your opinion or that of Fr. Seraphim. 


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« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2009, 03:16:30 PM »

[Oh, you mean that he does not agree with Fr. Seraphim's rather strange teachings on evolution?]

no, i mean: "he refuses to accept the Patristic understanding of Genesis"

[Lots of Orthodox have problems with St. Augustine on various levels]

and yet he remains a Saint, which Abp. Puhalo doesnt seem to realize.

[Why am I not surprised that you find the Archbishop so objectionable, when you have just gone out of your way to revive this dormant thread about him and Fr. Seraphim Rose at almost precisely the same time, and are full of nothing but effusive praise for the work of Fr. Seraphim?]

God forbid I comment on threads that interest me.
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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2009, 08:21:54 PM »


Archbishop Lazar thinks there's a Gnostic boogyman around every corner. The man needs to be medicated for his paranoia.
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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2009, 09:10:39 PM »


Archbishop Lazar thinks there's a Gnostic boogyman around every corner. The man needs to be medicated for his paranoia.

He could be right. Wink
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« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2009, 09:20:57 PM »

If one reads his biography on Orthodox Wiki, one finds that he has been mostly an opinionated monastic, who got in trouble for speaking his mind and stirring the pot. As a famous saying goes, nobody is perfect all of the time and I think folks should cut him some slack. I like Archbishop Lazar even though I don't agree with him on some things. I especially like his pursuit of "superstitions that corrupt the faith" (http://orthodoxy21.blogspot.com/).
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« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2009, 09:27:50 PM »

I'd have to weigh in with Second Chance on this one. I also tend to appreciate Abp Lazar's writings (although I do not necessarily subscribe to everything he writes). I also have problems with Seraphim Rose's take on the toll houses and Blessed Augustine. I'm just curious why this old thread has been resurrected. Huh
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« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2009, 09:29:43 PM »

I'd have to weigh in with Second Chance on this one. I also tend to appreciate Abp Lazar's writings (although I do not necessarily subscribe to everything he writes). I also have problems with Seraphim Rose's take on the toll houses and Blessed Augustine. I'm just curious why this old thread has been resurrected. Huh

Because jckstraw72 got tired of debating creationism vs. evolution and started attacking hierarchs that disagree with him??
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« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2009, 09:49:31 PM »

I'd have to weigh in with Second Chance on this one. I also tend to appreciate Abp Lazar's writings (although I do not necessarily subscribe to everything he writes). I also have problems with Seraphim Rose's take on the toll houses and Blessed Augustine. I'm just curious why this old thread has been resurrected. Huh

Resurrected? Why not? It's here for people to post comments. I disagree with Father Seraphim about Augustine. The latter was a Manichean, a heresy essentially rooted in Gnosticism. Augustine is the cause of the schism and all western heresies.
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2009, 12:40:54 AM »

I'd have to weigh in with Second Chance on this one. I also tend to appreciate Abp Lazar's writings (although I do not necessarily subscribe to everything he writes). I also have problems with Seraphim Rose's take on the toll houses and Blessed Augustine. I'm just curious why this old thread has been resurrected. Huh

Because jckstraw72 got tired of debating creationism vs. evolution and started attacking hierarchs that disagree with him??

Ah... I see now. Thanks.
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« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2009, 05:00:02 PM »

I'd have to weigh in with Second Chance on this one. I also tend to appreciate Abp Lazar's writings (although I do not necessarily subscribe to everything he writes). I also have problems with Seraphim Rose's take on the toll houses and Blessed Augustine. I'm just curious why this old thread has been resurrected. Huh

Because jckstraw72 got tired of debating creationism vs. evolution and started attacking hierarchs that disagree with him??

or perhaps because when i commented on this thread i was fairly new to the site, and thus i went through and found threads that were interesting to me and i commented in them. but your theory is fun too.
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« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2009, 12:14:27 AM »

Sorry to re-resurrect this thread, but I recently watched one of his Youtube videos on Aerial Tollhouses... I have to say that he makes some questionable statements in it. One of the first, is he accuses some Orthodox Christians of being heretics for believing in certain things, among them being the toll-houses. He also goes on to mention Origen and Augustine by saying neither are Church Fathers. I know Origen is not a church father, but Augustine is a Church Father in the Orthodox Church, and was mentioned with the other Church Fathers in the 5th Ecumenical Council.

After reading up on Augustine to make sure he is a Church Father in the Orthodox Church, I noticed that Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote a book on Blessed Augustine and the view of him in the Orthodox Church.

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that Archbishop Lazar Puhalo is really walking dangerously. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but it makes me wonder if his dislike of Augustine is because of his dislike for Fr. Seraphim Rose.

I also find it very hard to believe that I'm hearing someone, especially at his level accusing Orthodox Christians, and also Fr. Seraphim Rose (although indirectly) of heresy and of being heretics. Is that not the Church's decision to make and not his?

Forgive me if I'm overstepping my boundaries but this really bothered me...
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« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2009, 12:30:56 AM »

Why should it bother you so much? Abp Lazar is entitled to his opinion... I happen to agree and I'm entitled to mine... and you're entitled to your opinion. And in the final analysis, that's all it all boils down to: opinions.
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« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2009, 12:47:02 AM »

I know, I believe that good, Orthodox people can disagree on things... What bothers me is his accusations of heresy and actually calling them out as heretics.
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« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2009, 12:47:43 AM »

Sorry to re-resurrect this thread, but I recently watched one of his Youtube videos on Aerial Tollhouses... I have to say that he makes some questionable statements in it. One of the first, is he accuses some Orthodox Christians of being heretics for believing in certain things, among them being the toll-houses.

You will find that there are Orthodox Christians who would call the tollhouse "doctrine" a heresy because of the aberrations which it introduces into soteriology.  On the other hand you will find people (particularly in the Russian Church Abroad) who will go so far as to call it dogma.

Here is something on the Forum which offers the reaction of a convert when she encountered the tollhouse teaching.

Toll Houses: dogma, a logic of damnation, and taking the implications seriously

Part i
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2145.msg300562.html#msg300562

Part ii
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2145.msg300616.html#msg300616

Part iii
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2145.msg300770.html#msg300770
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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2009, 12:48:57 AM »

 This may be the beginning of another topic/thread, but I'm beginning to believe that there really is no such thing as "Orthodox Christianity" or at least none of us really understands or knows what it is.  Some of us believe "this" is Orthodoxy while others of us believe that "that" is Orthodoxy all the while a third group says both groups are wrong all the while all three groups claim to be "Orthodox".  Not only are we divided by idiotic jurisdictions, but we're divided by the way we divide up the days of the year.  Then we have an Eastern and a Western Rite with animosity between the two.  There are Fathers and Mothers who some accept while others are ready to kill at the mention of them being addressed as a Father or Mother.  I'm told to trust my Bishop, but who knows if what he's saying is right or wrong.  I'm sure I could find just as many who will say he's wrong or I'm wrong or you're wrong as I could who would agree with him or me or y'all.  It's just so exhausting trying to figure out what's the real deal and what's not and that's why I'm beginning to think that "Orthodoxy" is just an ideal to attain to but doesn't yet exist.  Sorry for the rant and for derailing the topic.  Undecided
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« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2009, 02:43:51 AM »

You will find that there are Orthodox Christians who would call the tollhouse "doctrine" a heresy because of the aberrations which it introduces into soteriology.  On the other hand you will find people (particularly in the Russian Church Abroad) who will go so far as to call it dogma.

Here is something on the Forum which offers the reaction of a convert when she encountered the tollhouse teaching.

Toll Houses: dogma, a logic of damnation, and taking the implications seriously

Part i
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2145.msg300562.html#msg300562

Part ii
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2145.msg300616.html#msg300616

Part iii
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2145.msg300770.html#msg300770

Excellent summation of the problems inherent in the toll house teaching.
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« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2009, 12:50:19 PM »

You are about to unleash a hornet's nest of controversy! LOL

How right you were.

However, I've heard Archbishop Lazar speak on numerous occasions and have found each one to be just as fascinating as the last. Last year he came to the University of Saskatchewan to speak about the relationship between God and science, I wasn't able to attend that, but our youth group had a one-on-one discussion with him and we covered such topics as physics, the universe, and homosexuality. I'm unaware of controversy surrounding him, but I found his intelligence profound. I would not hesitate to speak with him again if I had the chance. In fact I own his book "Evidence of Things Not Seen" and it has answered many questions I had.
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« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2009, 01:02:32 PM »


Lazar believes in Evolution. I won't even dignify him with the title of Archbishop.

Actually his arguments for the Theory of Evolution are quite thought-provoking if you take the time to listen.  I've found no reason to dispute them.
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« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2009, 01:10:14 PM »

They may be thought provoking, but if they differ from the majority of Orthodox fathers, then we have all the reason to dispute them. However I'm not saying he's wrong or teaching things contrary to the fathers, I'm just saying that we need to be careful about any "teacher" and always question what they say, and accept what they say if it's in concordance with the universal teachings of the Church.

Just because someone brings forth a good argument that is well-thought out, logical and scholarly doesn't make them right on a theological level, we certainly know this from western theology. Always question teachings from individuals and always measure them up against tradition, the Church fathers and the universal witness of the Church.

(Final note: I hope it is clear that I'm not speaking specifically about Abp. Lazar Puhalo, but rather about any teacher, it's not up to me to judge if he's right or wrong, I'm simply calling for some examination of him from an Orthodox standpoint rather than from individual opinions of people posting on the internet)

Edited to include honorific title--YtterbiumAnalyst
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« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2009, 01:38:04 PM »

I understand what you are telling me perfectly

However, I wasn't just relaying my individual viewpoint. As an Orthodox Christain, I have not, as of yet, found reason to dispute Archbishop Lazar's teachings on Evolution.  God is great, I've no reason to think a day to Him is the same length of time as a day is to humans. Furthermore, the Old Testament is chock full of metaphors, why not Genesis? Evolution by intelligent design?  Believe me, I've discussed this topic with many an Orthodox person, none have produced anything to say otherwise.  But I'm not out to attack those who don't believe in Evolution. They have the right to their opinion.

Maybe we can agree that we will never understand God, nor should we try to. Someone once told me that the day we do, God ceases to exist.

I do not accept beliefs without question, I question everyday of my life, isn't this part of being a Christain?
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« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2009, 02:51:36 PM »

Oh definitely, personally I don't really ascribe to any specific formula for creation, I just accept that God did it, however it did it isn't important to me.
I really don't dispute Abp. Lazar Puhalo's evolution theories, personally I don't care about them, it's other teachings of his that I find issue with. However those aren't really important to this discussion.

Also: I didn't think you weren't questioning things or investigating them, I was just kind of posting that as a precaution.

Edited to include honorific title--YtterbiumAnalyst
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« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2009, 05:01:50 PM »

I fully admire your acceptance
My interest in knowledge may prove to be my ultimate downfall, "curiousity killed the cat" you might say. Though i do try to learn in the interest of strengthening my beliefs.

You precaution is appreciated, though i might've gotten slightly defensive (sorry). I think we all learned that lesson in light of recent and horribly unfortunate events involving our former Metropolitan.  It's always good to question the positions of our church leaders.
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« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2012, 02:23:04 PM »

God bless!+

This "Archbishop" is not only against Blessed Father Seraphim and his "gnostic" teachinng of the Toll Houses, he is against many many Saints and Elders of the orthodox church!

The teaching is not a folk myth, or gnostic it is an important, ancient ,traditional teaching of the pan-orthodox church and everyone can proof this!

You have to read and study the church fathers and you will come across often about this issue!

it is mentioned in the scripture
Saint Makarios,
Saint Athanasius the great mentioned it in the live of St, Antonius
Sain Basil the new (Blessed Theodora, Blessed Gregory his disciple)
Martyr Taxiotis
Saint Theophan the Recluse
Saint Ignatios or russia
Saint Justin of Serbia
St. Nikolaj of Zica
in the Philokalie
in the Evergentinos
Prolog of Ohrid
in the famous monastery of Rila in frescos are shown all 20 Stations
...............

And everyone who do not agree with him is guilty of sexual realtions or a heretic or gnostic!

I know some old calendarians from greece and usa and they all believe in the Toll houses!

In CHRIST


I am a catechumen in the Greek Orthodox Church, so I want to be certain up front that it is understood that I have much to learn (and un-learn). In America, when you say "Toll-House", 99.8% will tell you that refers to a cookie with chocolate chips in it :>) I was a protestant for 35 years, then a Roman Catholic for 25 years until recently. I mention this just to explain my context.

One thing I want to say in response to this post (quoted above) is that it could also be said, given the litany of alleged supporters you give for Toll-House theory, that an even greater litany of notables could have been given in support of Arius in the time of St. Athanasius. It seemed as if the whole world had gone after his (Arius') heresy (including the then Roman Bishop and the majority of other bishops and faithful). Athanasius was in a very small minority. When all was told, Arius was condemned as an heretic. So, IMHO, litanies of notables do not guarantee the orthodoxy of a posited theory or doctrine, as proven from history.

Perhaps, more importantly, 2 things come to my mind regarding this "discussion" of Archbishop Lazar (I do not know him, or his writings). If he was defrocked for disciplinary reasons or for being overly zealous  in a refutation of a teaching he saw as dangerous and false, that is one thing. So with that said, #1) I saw where one person wrote on this thread that Archbishop Lazar seemed to be accepted "by those on the fringe". My response to that is : heaven forbid, he may also have been known to associate with publicans and sinners!!!

#2, and of deeper concern, is this question: What explanation or excuse can be legitimately given for putting this man into the center of a thread, without his knowledge, and proceeding to debate his legitimacy through some supportive remarks (excl. Euthymios), but a majority of perjorative, judgemental assessments and calumnies. Is this slander, gossip, tale-bearing? Would you like this to happen to you and your name/reputation? As a catechumen I am troubled to see this on an Orthodox Christian site and would be tempted to be scandalized by this, had I not already met my lifetime quota for being scandalized while among the Papists.

There is obviously room for disagreement, but not at the expense of a man who, from all indications, has given his life to serve God and to teach and protect His people. In the RCC, appeal could be made to the Pope on this matter, and settled unequivocably with no further recourse. Thanks be to God the Orthodox Church is not enslaved to such "lording it over the flock of God". However, as a catechuman, how is this obviously devisive and controversial teaching to be once and for all settled, and by whom? And is the toll-house teaching really 'purgatory' on steroids?!!

As an afterthought and in response to another writer's remarks, the retired Archbishop's political opinions regarding America as it is today, and the global utopian frenzy in general, should have no bearing on a discussion of toll-houses.

I need answers to the question I have asked here, which you have raised.

Christos Anesti!

Ivanov
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« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2012, 03:20:14 PM »

I am a catechumen in the Greek Orthodox Church,

Then, and I mean this with absolute respectfulness and sincerity, I would humbly suggest the following:

1.  Avoid controversies like the plague

2.  Read the writings of the saints and Fathers rather than those of any contemporary Orthodox author whose way of life and fidelity to the patristic tradition has yet to be fully evaluated by the Church

3.  Flee especially from those contemporary “teachers” who claim to “know better” than the glorified saints and Fathers

4.  In reading the writings of the saints and Fathers, do not consider that you yourself “know better” than your bishops and priests, but maintain always a humble attitude, realizing that book knowledge is one thing and knowledge from the Holy Spirit through purification, illumination, and theosis is something else entirely. 

I state the words above as one who has contributed way more than my fair share to the toll-house threads.
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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2012, 03:37:39 PM »

As a catechumen I am troubled to see this on an Orthodox Christian site and would be tempted to be scandalized by this, had I not already met my lifetime quota for being scandalized while among the Papists.

Nice post overall!

And with this sorta rhetoric where you hit at least two groups with your self-righteous shrapnel, I look forward to more of your well crafted missives.

This is about as deep a compliment I can muster, so please take no offense.
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2012, 10:45:10 PM »

Dear jah777,

Thank you for your input. I am new to Orthodoxy, yes. But after 25+ hard fought years in the post-Vatican 2 RCC, I can assure you I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and advice you offer, though much like so many, faltering here and there as most of us unenlightened sinners do.

Ivanov

Dear Orthonorm,

Are you familiar with the term 'ad hominem' (to the man)? I was not angrily attacking or casting aspersions on any individual. I was expressing concern and asking for answers re: what seemed to me to be gossip/talebearing about someone who was not able to defend himself. RE: my statement about scandal while among the papists, (again a general statement about MY EXPERIENCE and NOT any individual), any RC current or ex will tell you more than you would want to hear about the ubiquitous scandals year after year that had to be endured. I use the term "papists" because it is simply precise, and certainly not original with me. I fail to see any self-righteousness or "shrapnel" (such hyperbole!!) in what I wrote. You offered no answers, there was no substance in your reply. Merely a caustic attempt at cuteness, which I must be quick to forgive, knowing full well that I too am capable of such.

This is why I am kicking myself for getting involved again (I had in the past) with a faceless blog where sniper-ing is the great temptation and typed words void of tonal nuance are read by who-knows-who and what mindset or agenda lurks beneath. This will be my last time spent on this site. If I have given offense, I sincerely ask your forgiveness... both of you. I know that I am a poor sinner. If there is smugness in what both of you have written, I will try give you what you failed to give me (a newbie)... the benefit of the doubt.

May God bless and keep each of us.

Ivanov
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2012, 10:56:04 PM »

I was complimenting you.

Sheesh, some people just can't take a compliment.
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« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2012, 12:34:56 AM »

Christ is risen.

I notice that no one has added, to this thread, the thread's namesake's latest expressed views, advocating for sex-change operations for those who are of one gender but are trapped in a body of a different gender.

We're definitely not in Kansas anymore. (If ever we were.)
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« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2012, 01:17:50 AM »

Christ is risen.

I notice that no one has added, to this thread, the thread's namesake's latest expressed views, advocating for sex-change operations for those who are of one gender but are trapped in a body of a different gender.

We're definitely not in Kansas anymore. (If ever we were.)
but if his grace is advocating such views, he is surely in Oz.
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« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2012, 01:20:10 AM »

I am a catechumen in the Greek Orthodox Church,

Then, and I mean this with absolute respectfulness and sincerity, I would humbly suggest the following:

1.  Avoid controversies like the plague

2.  Read the writings of the saints and Fathers rather than those of any contemporary Orthodox author whose way of life and fidelity to the patristic tradition has yet to be fully evaluated by the Church

3.  Flee especially from those contemporary “teachers” who claim to “know better” than the glorified saints and Fathers
and those contemporary "teachers" who claim that the glorified saints and Fathers taught toll houses, what of them?
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« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2012, 01:23:54 AM »

I was complimenting you.

Sheesh, some people just can't take a compliment.

I can't tell if I should thank you or ignore you :>) Speak plainly... it's been a very long and tiring journey. And now I've made myself a liar by posting again  Sad

Ivanov

++++++++++=

re: Father's sex-change remarks, etc. ... I just want to respectfully remind that I was not entering the controversy as I clearly wrote at the outset... "I don't know him or his writings". There is not one inkling of any attempt on my part to defend his beliefs or theories (rather to say generally that appealing to litanies of notables is not always a guarantee of orthodoxy)... but there is abundant evidence of my desire to defend him as a brother in the Lord from being judged unknowingly and hurtfully in a public forum without redress... that concern has yet to be addressed by anyone. Do you desire reconciliation with him, or he with you? Does this thread represent that desire, or is it more of a friendly firing squad? I understand the gravity involved when one in a leadership position teaches or expresses views that can mislead or hurt souls, and that discipline and even excommunication can be called for... but a controversy like this happens, does the Orthodox Church have an exemption from immediately seeking justice and reconciliation... can it run quickly to the stone quarry without compunction? Can this happen to me once I become Orthodox, though I can't tell from my experience here if I have to be good enough or sinful enough for that to happen?! Oh my...

Now my earlier questions have gone from 'inquiry' to 'rhetorical'. Why bother? I will continue along, God willing, the clear path He has put before me, leading me to His Ancient Church, and so again,

thanking you for your priestly care and service, I ask for your prayers and understanding, and as always,

Forgive me. And jah777, thank you for your advice. I will always need to be reminded...

Ivanov

Now I will leave...      

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« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2012, 01:42:39 AM »

I was complimenting you.

Sheesh, some people just can't take a compliment.

I can't tell if I should thank you or ignore you :>) Speak plainly... it's been a very long and tiring journey. And now I've made myself a liar by posting again  Sad

Ivanov

Don't know how more plainly to speak. I like your style.

Everyone is a liar. It's OK.

This is a discussion board on the internet about Orthodoxy and buncha other stuff. Don't expect to find some hushed pious hand-holding.

Don't confuse it with Orthodoxy.

If you don't enjoy this type of stuff, you are probably better off not hanging around.

Or you could hang around and try to get to know the people and insane personalities the most vocal of us have and try to have a good time.

Sometimes a little levity and even zealous blustering might help make that journey less tiring and long.

Or it could make it worse.

Folks have different dispositions. And different needs at different times.

In other rooms I am around, there is Rule 62. It's not a bad rule to follow for many.

Another rule that sorta is related is not to take others too seriously either when appropriate.

Thank, ignore, stay, leave, lie, whatever. But take it easy. Someone has to for us who take it too seriously.

Again, don't confuse the internet with Orthodoxy, no matter what the place of internet you are at is called.





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« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2012, 02:23:14 AM »

I am a catechumen in the Greek Orthodox Church,

Then, and I mean this with absolute respectfulness and sincerity, I would humbly suggest the following:

1.  Avoid controversies like the plague

2.  Read the writings of the saints and Fathers rather than those of any contemporary Orthodox author whose way of life and fidelity to the patristic tradition has yet to be fully evaluated by the Church

3.  Flee especially from those contemporary “teachers” who claim to “know better” than the glorified saints and Fathers

4.  In reading the writings of the saints and Fathers, do not consider that you yourself “know better” than your bishops and priests, but maintain always a humble attitude, realizing that book knowledge is one thing and knowledge from the Holy Spirit through purification, illumination, and theosis is something else entirely. 

I state the words above as one who has contributed way more than my fair share to the toll-house threads.

I agree; he should disregard all those modernists who claim universalism is heresy, and side with the likes of the glorified St. Isaac of Nineveh instead.
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« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2012, 02:23:14 AM »

Christ is risen.

I notice that no one has added, to this thread, the thread's namesake's latest expressed views, advocating for sex-change operations for those who are of one gender but are trapped in a body of a different gender.

We're definitely not in Kansas anymore. (If ever we were.)

An interesting argument could potentially be made for that based in the idea that all of creation has been distorted due to the fall.
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« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2012, 09:30:16 AM »

I agree; he should disregard all those modernists who claim universalism is heresy, and side with the likes of the glorified St. Isaac of Nineveh instead.

You do not agree with what I said, because I recommended the reading of the saints and the Fathers.  I did not say to choose one saint, read only that one saint, and consider everything he says to be completely infallible.  If he reads the saints and the Fathers (in the plural), he will see that universalism is not found in the consensus of the Fathers and has no place in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2012, 09:41:38 AM »

I am a catechumen in the Greek Orthodox Church,

Then, and I mean this with absolute respectfulness and sincerity, I would humbly suggest the following:

1.  Avoid controversies like the plague

2.  Read the writings of the saints and Fathers rather than those of any contemporary Orthodox author whose way of life and fidelity to the patristic tradition has yet to be fully evaluated by the Church

3.  Flee especially from those contemporary “teachers” who claim to “know better” than the glorified saints and Fathers
and those contemporary "teachers" who claim that the glorified saints and Fathers taught toll houses, what of them?

Don’t take their word for it but read what the saints and Fathers actually said on the subject of the soul after death, and see where they agree. 

P.S. I just noticed that this is the 777th post of jah777   Cool
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 09:50:48 AM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2012, 08:32:20 PM »

Christ is risen.

I notice that no one has added, to this thread, the thread's namesake's latest expressed views, advocating for sex-change operations for those who are of one gender but are trapped in a body of a different gender.

We're definitely not in Kansas anymore. (If ever we were.)

An interesting argument could potentially be made for that based in the idea that all of creation has been distorted due to the fall.

I can accept the argument that brain and chromosomal/genital sex can be confused and muddled in this fallen world, but it seems to me that sex-change operations don't actually change one's sex.

It would be a strange Orthodox Christian anthropology which accepts that mutilating the unfortunate penis makes one a woman, or that grafting one crafting one from other biological matter makes one a man.
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« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2012, 08:37:00 PM »

Christ is risen.

I notice that no one has added, to this thread, the thread's namesake's latest expressed views, advocating for sex-change operations for those who are of one gender but are trapped in a body of a different gender.

We're definitely not in Kansas anymore. (If ever we were.)

An interesting argument could potentially be made for that based in the idea that all of creation has been distorted due to the fall.

I can accept the argument that brain and chromosomal/genital sex can be confused and muddled in this fallen world, but it seems to me that sex-change operations don't actually change one's sex.

It would be a strange Orthodox Christian anthropology which accepts that mutilating the unfortunate penis makes one a woman, or that grafting one crafting one from other biological matter makes one a man.

Perhaps this belongs in another thread, but I think we need to start taking seriously people who don't fall into neat categories. Who then attempt to butcher themselves in order to do so.

Time reconsider all this "gender" (hate the term) talk as if it is off and on.

Sometimes it don't work that way and we should accept that and love the people who have the misfortune of being born in a such a manner in such a world.
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« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2012, 08:40:03 PM »

Christ is risen.

I notice that no one has added, to this thread, the thread's namesake's latest expressed views, advocating for sex-change operations for those who are of one gender but are trapped in a body of a different gender.

We're definitely not in Kansas anymore. (If ever we were.)

An interesting argument could potentially be made for that based in the idea that all of creation has been distorted due to the fall.

I can accept the argument that brain and chromosomal/genital sex can be confused and muddled in this fallen world, but it seems to me that sex-change operations don't actually change one's sex.

It would be a strange Orthodox Christian anthropology which accepts that mutilating the unfortunate penis makes one a woman, or that grafting one crafting one from other biological matter makes one a man.

Perhaps this belongs in another thread, but I think we need to start taking seriously people who don't fall into neat categories. Who then attempt to butcher themselves in order to do so.

Time reconsider all this "gender" (hate the term) talk as if it is off and on.

Sometimes it don't work that way and we should accept that and love the people who have the misfortune of being born in a such a manner in such a world.

My own thinking on the issue tends in that direction, also.
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« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2012, 12:04:04 AM »

I agree; he should disregard all those modernists who claim universalism is heresy, and side with the likes of the glorified St. Isaac of Nineveh instead.

You do not agree with what I said, because I recommended the reading of the saints and the Fathers.  I did not say to choose one saint, read only that one saint, and consider everything he says to be completely infallible.  If he reads the saints and the Fathers (in the plural), he will see that universalism is not found in the consensus of the Fathers and has no place in Orthodoxy.

Or he could read other Fathers and Saints from the first several centuries of the Church that DID teach universal salvation.  My point remains though; saints have taught many things that other saints have condemned or at the least said was wrong.  Toll houses are something that some saints have taught, but plenty of others have not.
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« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2012, 08:41:56 AM »

I agree; he should disregard all those modernists who claim universalism is heresy, and side with the likes of the glorified St. Isaac of Nineveh instead.

You do not agree with what I said, because I recommended the reading of the saints and the Fathers.  I did not say to choose one saint, read only that one saint, and consider everything he says to be completely infallible.  If he reads the saints and the Fathers (in the plural), he will see that universalism is not found in the consensus of the Fathers and has no place in Orthodoxy.

Or he could read other Fathers and Saints from the first several centuries of the Church that DID teach universal salvation.  My point remains though; saints have taught many things that other saints have condemned or at the least said was wrong.  Toll houses are something that some saints have taught, but plenty of others have not.

there's quite a difference between not teaching something and condemning something.
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« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2012, 03:04:48 PM »

I agree; he should disregard all those modernists who claim universalism is heresy, and side with the likes of the glorified St. Isaac of Nineveh instead.

You do not agree with what I said, because I recommended the reading of the saints and the Fathers.  I did not say to choose one saint, read only that one saint, and consider everything he says to be completely infallible.  If he reads the saints and the Fathers (in the plural), he will see that universalism is not found in the consensus of the Fathers and has no place in Orthodoxy.

Or he could read other Fathers and Saints from the first several centuries of the Church that DID teach universal salvation.  My point remains though; saints have taught many things that other saints have condemned or at the least said was wrong.  Toll houses are something that some saints have taught, but plenty of others have not.
Amen!
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« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2012, 06:43:47 PM »

I agree; he should disregard all those modernists who claim universalism is heresy, and side with the likes of the glorified St. Isaac of Nineveh instead.

You do not agree with what I said, because I recommended the reading of the saints and the Fathers.  I did not say to choose one saint, read only that one saint, and consider everything he says to be completely infallible.  If he reads the saints and the Fathers (in the plural), he will see that universalism is not found in the consensus of the Fathers and has no place in Orthodoxy.

Or he could read other Fathers and Saints from the first several centuries of the Church that DID teach universal salvation.  My point remains though; saints have taught many things that other saints have condemned or at the least said was wrong.  Toll houses are something that some saints have taught, but plenty of others have not.

there's quite a difference between not teaching something and condemning something.

Yes; but if only a small number of saints teach something, do we really need to think it's true?  I would wager that 98% of the saints never even mentioned the toll houses one way or another.  Really, a much stronger patristic case can be made for universal salvation than for the toll houses; if you believe in toll houses because you think the Fathers taught them, you really ought to believe in universal salvation.
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« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2012, 10:05:48 PM »

Christ is risen.

These statements about universalism are entirely incorrect. Name even one Saint or Church Father who taught the idea of apokatastasis or universal salvation of every single creature or human. And then, we have clear teaching on this from an Ecumenical Council. That stands for something, in our Faith. Since both Eastern and Western rites of the Church have the idea of the possibility of damnation or outright declarations about damnation of at least Judas and Arius in them, we can say, in a nutshell, that all the Saints prayed in a rite which expresses possibility or the fact of partial damnation, which is also clearly taught in the Gospel itself.

Ever since about the 5th century, the Eastern rite has prayers in its cycle of services, in texts regularly occurring year in and year out, which declare the toll-house or at least Intercepting Demons In the Air Accosting Souls. So we can safely say that at least the Eastern Saints regularly prayed, chanted, and listened to services declaring this, without ever thinking to utter a peep of disagreement with it. That's going beyond the passive reception of a teaching, when it's being proclaimed in church and listened to without a hint of doubt or a hint of queasiness. The Western Rite did/does not have regularly-recurring liturgical texts which proclaim this teaching, but it is found in a rather hazy form in the lives of some of the Western Saints. But the West never emphasized this, very much. Almost 100% of the Saints of the last 1000 years have kept to the Eastern rite(s) of the Church.
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« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2012, 11:56:43 PM »

Christ is risen.

These statements about universalism are entirely incorrect. Name even one Saint or Church Father who taught the idea of apokatastasis or universal salvation of every single creature or human. And then, we have clear teaching on this from an Ecumenical Council. That stands for something, in our Faith. Since both Eastern and Western rites of the Church have the idea of the possibility of damnation or outright declarations about damnation of at least Judas and Arius in them, we can say, in a nutshell, that all the Saints prayed in a rite which expresses possibility or the fact of partial damnation, which is also clearly taught in the Gospel itself.

Ever since about the 5th century, the Eastern rite has prayers in its cycle of services, in texts regularly occurring year in and year out, which declare the toll-house or at least Intercepting Demons In the Air Accosting Souls. So we can safely say that at least the Eastern Saints regularly prayed, chanted, and listened to services declaring this, without ever thinking to utter a peep of disagreement with it. That's going beyond the passive reception of a teaching, when it's being proclaimed in church and listened to without a hint of doubt or a hint of queasiness. The Western Rite did/does not have regularly-recurring liturgical texts which proclaim this teaching, but it is found in a rather hazy form in the lives of some of the Western Saints. But the West never emphasized this, very much. Almost 100% of the Saints of the last 1000 years have kept to the Eastern rite(s) of the Church.

St. Isaac of Nineveh very clearly taught universal salvation; he viewed Gehenna as, essentially, Purgatory, and believed all would be reconciled to God - including the demons.

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« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2012, 01:08:26 AM »

Well whatever one says of Puhalo, he is in the OCA. Some of the OCA says toll houses are part of tradition & apparently some, like Pulaho, say not. Some say St. John of Damascus teaches about the toll houses & indeed some claim him as the anchor of that alleged tradtion, see: http://stmichaelacademy.org/theo/stjd.htm

One will note that the tollers continue to refer to hymnography "attributed" to St. John of Damascus while if one reads his "Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith" the toll houses do not seem to be mentioned (I looked & cannot find 'em). see:  http://www.orthodox.net/fathers/exactidx.html

The salvation of the Lord Jesus Christ is in the Holy Bible.



John 3:7

King James Version (KJV)

John 3:7
 
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again


John 3:7


John 3:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

 
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
 
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Just call upon the Lord:


Romans 10:9-13

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9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
 
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved


 

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« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2012, 04:26:31 PM »

Even if a Saint believed something which has by now been condemned by an Ecumenical Council, the Ecumenical Council is the teaching of the Church.

But I have not read anything by St. Isaac of Nineveh which amounts to a teaching that all demons will find salvation, and all men. I really don't think he does, although I am convince-able and keeping my mind open.
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