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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #2700 on: January 23, 2012, 06:56:35 PM »

1. He won 6 NBA Titles
2. Jordan had no weaknesses in his game.
3. He had a great Jump shot.
4. He could use either hand, able to go to his left as well as his right.
5. He was a great ball handler.
6. He was a great rebounder.
7. Best driving ability ever.
8. Excellent defender (he led the league in steals more than once, and was named defensive player of the year. He was also a great shot blocker.)
9. He made his teammates better (just ask anyone who played with him.)
4. He possessed a wonderful basketball IQ.
5. He had an unparralleled work ethic.
6. His competitive streak was next to none.

You can cite Oscar Robertson's stats all day long (and they were quite amazing), but if you and I had the same 4 players going against each other, I'd gladly take Jordan in his prime over Oscar in his prime to add to my four any day of the week.

As for Magic, he's one of the top five of all time in my book. But he had weaknesses in his game. He wasn't a great defender, and he didn't have a great jump shot.

Listen, Jordan is top-5, but it's hard to compare folks across positions and eras.  His 6 rings are chump change compared to some of the greats; he couldn't play or defend the 5 (and couldn't defend the 4), so don't say, "he had no flaws" (vs. Magic, who could play all 5 positions at a championship level, the Big O who could play 4 at a championship level, etc.); there have been better jump shooters and scorers throughout the ages (Larry Bird, etc.).

He calls himself the best, and may be the best, but it's not an uncontested race, and certainly not as clear-cut as you'd like it to be.  He benefited from the role players he detested (even Scottie), and his abuse of them in practice is well documented.  He couldn't win in the playoffs until those role players (and Scottie, who was a HOF-er in his own right) developed and were put in place.  He excelled and won because he was an insufferable man who cared little for his teammates and less for his opponents, who strove to perfect himself constantly while also specifically seeking opportunities to continue humiliating others, taking advantage of people and situations, and ultimately putting himself above all others, including family and friends.  He was a great ball player, but would also have been a great assassin (cold blooded, ruthless, relentless).

Ultimately, the best players in history (so far) have rarely been "alone" on their teams - i.e. nothing but average players around them. 

And as for the straight-up 2 teams with the same floor + 1 great that you propose, a team with Wilt, the Big O, Jerry West, Magic, or Bill Russell in their primes as the +1, and adjusted for the differences in training in one era vs another, would wipe the floor with Jordan as the +1.  At least 3 of the people on the list needed to be triple-teamed on D, while Jordan could be neutralized with a decent double-team.
And regarding Jordan's NCAA championship at UNC: Everyone loves to remember how the freshman Jordan hit the jumper that won the title game, but very few remember that it was James Worthy who put the Tar Heels in position to win on Jordan's last-second heroics. After that game, Worthy went pro and left Jordan to be the team's star player for the next two years. In those two years without Worthy, the Tar Heels never made it past the Sweet 16 (or was it the Elite 8?).


What a ridiculous argument. Jordan just so happened to win the USA a gold medal in the Olympics during that same time. And BTW, how many times do I have to keep reminding you people that Jordan constantly IMPROVED over the duration of his career. You guys make silly arguments based upon some inane reduction of his entire career to a few seasons early on.

I guess losers will always hate a winner. Keep hating BAMA and keep hating Jordan, and see how far that will get you in life. Or, you can actually learn from the work ethic, discipline, teamwork, and dedication that it takes to be a champion. Such qualities actually apply to many facets of life. Wink


Selam

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« Reply #2701 on: January 23, 2012, 07:57:17 PM »

1. He won 6 NBA Titles
2. Jordan had no weaknesses in his game.
3. He had a great Jump shot.
4. He could use either hand, able to go to his left as well as his right.
5. He was a great ball handler.
6. He was a great rebounder.
7. Best driving ability ever.
8. Excellent defender (he led the league in steals more than once, and was named defensive player of the year. He was also a great shot blocker.)
9. He made his teammates better (just ask anyone who played with him.)
4. He possessed a wonderful basketball IQ.
5. He had an unparralleled work ethic.
6. His competitive streak was next to none.

You can cite Oscar Robertson's stats all day long (and they were quite amazing), but if you and I had the same 4 players going against each other, I'd gladly take Jordan in his prime over Oscar in his prime to add to my four any day of the week.

As for Magic, he's one of the top five of all time in my book. But he had weaknesses in his game. He wasn't a great defender, and he didn't have a great jump shot.

Listen, Jordan is top-5, but it's hard to compare folks across positions and eras.  His 6 rings are chump change compared to some of the greats; he couldn't play or defend the 5 (and couldn't defend the 4), so don't say, "he had no flaws" (vs. Magic, who could play all 5 positions at a championship level, the Big O who could play 4 at a championship level, etc.); there have been better jump shooters and scorers throughout the ages (Larry Bird, etc.).

He calls himself the best, and may be the best, but it's not an uncontested race, and certainly not as clear-cut as you'd like it to be.  He benefited from the role players he detested (even Scottie), and his abuse of them in practice is well documented.  He couldn't win in the playoffs until those role players (and Scottie, who was a HOF-er in his own right) developed and were put in place.  He excelled and won because he was an insufferable man who cared little for his teammates and less for his opponents, who strove to perfect himself constantly while also specifically seeking opportunities to continue humiliating others, taking advantage of people and situations, and ultimately putting himself above all others, including family and friends.  He was a great ball player, but would also have been a great assassin (cold blooded, ruthless, relentless).

Ultimately, the best players in history (so far) have rarely been "alone" on their teams - i.e. nothing but average players around them. 

And as for the straight-up 2 teams with the same floor + 1 great that you propose, a team with Wilt, the Big O, Jerry West, Magic, or Bill Russell in their primes as the +1, and adjusted for the differences in training in one era vs another, would wipe the floor with Jordan as the +1.  At least 3 of the people on the list needed to be triple-teamed on D, while Jordan could be neutralized with a decent double-team.
And regarding Jordan's NCAA championship at UNC: Everyone loves to remember how the freshman Jordan hit the jumper that won the title game, but very few remember that it was James Worthy who put the Tar Heels in position to win on Jordan's last-second heroics. After that game, Worthy went pro and left Jordan to be the team's star player for the next two years. In those two years without Worthy, the Tar Heels never made it past the Sweet 16 (or was it the Elite 8?).


What a ridiculous argument. Jordan just so happened to win the USA a gold medal in the Olympics during that same time.
You talk as if Jordan was THE reason our Olympic mens basketball team won the Gold Medal in 1984. Had you forgotten that the USA hadn't at that time won anything less than gold in Olympic Mens Basketball since the debacle of 1972? With a few exceptions, we've always had the best basketball players and basketball teams in the world, even when we played just our collegiate players, and Jordan was by no means the only good player on his Olympic team, not in 1984 and not in 1992.

And BTW, how many times do I have to keep reminding you people that Jordan constantly IMPROVED over the duration of his career.
Who didn't?

You guys make silly arguments based upon some inane reduction of his entire career to a few seasons early on.
How often you forget that basketball is a game of 5-on-5, NOT a game of 1-on-1. The only reason Jordan won an NCAA title, 2 Olympic Gold Medals, and 6 NBA titles is that he was surrounded with great players. Often, those teams, particularly the great Bulls teams of the 90's, played better as teams WITHOUT him. Jordan never did really adapt to his teammates; rather, he insisted that they adapt to him, showing that he was a selfish player even to the end of his career. His HOF induction speech showed that his selfish pettiness continued even years after his final retirement.

I guess losers will always hate a winner. Keep hating BAMA and keep hating Jordan, and see how far that will get you in life. Or, you can actually learn from the work ethic, discipline, teamwork, and dedication that it takes to be a champion. Such qualities actually apply to many facets of life. Wink


Selam


How is it hating a winner to acknowledge that Jordan is truly an All-Time Top 5 player? And what does BAMA have to do with this? Who's hating on them?
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« Reply #2702 on: January 23, 2012, 08:16:54 PM »


1. He won 6 NBA Titles
2. Jordan had no weaknesses in his game.
3. He had a great Jump shot.
4. He could use either hand, able to go to his left as well as his right.
5. He was a great ball handler.
6. He was a great rebounder.
7. Best driving ability ever.
8. Excellent defender (he led the league in steals more than once, and was named defensive player of the year. He was also a great shot blocker.)
9. He made his teammates better (just ask anyone who played with him.)
4. He possessed a wonderful basketball IQ.
5. He had an unparralleled work ethic.
6. His competitive streak was next to none.

You can cite Oscar Robertson's stats all day long (and they were quite amazing), but if you and I had the same 4 players going against each other, I'd gladly take Jordan in his prime over Oscar in his prime to add to my four any day of the week.

As for Magic, he's one of the top five of all time in my book. But he had weaknesses in his game. He wasn't a great defender, and he didn't have a great jump shot.

Listen, Jordan is top-5, but it's hard to compare folks across positions and eras.  His 6 rings are chump change compared to some of the greats; he couldn't play or defend the 5 (and couldn't defend the 4), so don't say, "he had no flaws" (vs. Magic, who could play all 5 positions at a championship level, the Big O who could play 4 at a championship level, etc.); there have been better jump shooters and scorers throughout the ages (Larry Bird, etc.).

He calls himself the best, and may be the best, but it's not an uncontested race, and certainly not as clear-cut as you'd like it to be.  He benefited from the role players he detested (even Scottie), and his abuse of them in practice is well documented.  He couldn't win in the playoffs until those role players (and Scottie, who was a HOF-er in his own right) developed and were put in place.  He excelled and won because he was an insufferable man who cared little for his teammates and less for his opponents, who strove to perfect himself constantly while also specifically seeking opportunities to continue humiliating others, taking advantage of people and situations, and ultimately putting himself above all others, including family and friends.  He was a great ball player, but would also have been a great assassin (cold blooded, ruthless, relentless).

Ultimately, the best players in history (so far) have rarely been "alone" on their teams - i.e. nothing but average players around them.  

And as for the straight-up 2 teams with the same floor + 1 great that you propose, a team with Wilt, the Big O, Jerry West, Magic, or Bill Russell in their primes as the +1, and adjusted for the differences in training in one era vs another, would wipe the floor with Jordan as the +1.  At least 3 of the people on the list needed to be triple-teamed on D, while Jordan could be neutralized with a decent double-team.

Father Bless,

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but you are obviously confusing your personal disdain for Michael Jordan as a person with an objective analysis of his greatness as a basketball player.

Please name one weakness in Jordan's game. Stating that there were others who were better at a particular aspect of the game does not equate to Jordan being deficient in that area.

The bottom line is that if you and I were given the same four players, and you added Magic, Oscar, Wilt, or anyone else to your four and I added Jordan to my same four, I would win at least 7 out of 10 games. I guess there's no way to prove that, but anyone who truly knows the game of basketball would agree with me (just ask those who played and coached both with and against Jordan, and I promise you that they'd tell you the same.) Bob Knight, who abhorred selfish, individualistic basketball had this to say about Jordan when he coached him in the Olympics (when Jordan was only a college sophomore): "Michael Jordan is the best basketball player that will ever play this game."

It's sad that our culture has become so soft and feminized that anyone who demands perfection and excellence both from themselves and from those around them is condemned as selfish and insufferable. I can assure you that any true competitor would gladly have suffered Jordan's demanding nature in order to win 6 NBA rings.

Jordan is no Saint, but he isn't nearly as dispicable as you make him out to be.

Again, no disrespect to you Father.


Selam


I will not hide behind any pretenses. I am attacking you, your opinions, and how you treat other people

Instead of lashing out at people, and saying that their opinions are biased because of their supposed hatred for the guy, take some time to do a little soul searching on your part, and realize, here's a big shocker YOU MIGHT BE WRONG AND BIASED YOURSELF BASED ON YOUR LOVE OF HIM. take off the rose coloured glasses bud

i like to call this arrogance, being cocky, and being a complete tool who thinks his fecal matter doesnt stink, and is perfect. Oh wait, im talking to the all mighty Gebre, who is infalliable. my mistake. sorry that im not sorry
im going to call this sexism, and insulting and degrading to women as an entire gender and sex.

assuming the inner motives of players again, havent we been through this before

so please, cut the crap of saying you dont mean to offend, when your entire post was disrespectful

and yes, this post IS disrespectful, but mabye a nice hard crack on the noggin is what oyu need to teach others respect, and not hide behind passive agressive pacificsm
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 08:20:12 PM by TheMathematician » Logged
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« Reply #2703 on: January 23, 2012, 08:27:15 PM »

People hate on Jordan just to hate sometimes.  Tongue
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« Reply #2704 on: January 23, 2012, 09:05:43 PM »

Here's the problem with retroactively criticszing Jordan. The NBA has changed drastically in the last 10 years. In the early 2000’s it seemed like the majority of the game’s best players were guards. Now they are almost exclusively in the frontcourt.

You do realize that no NBA basketball player will ever top the greatness of Jordan in a few different areas. First of all look at the Jordan brand. It is practically synonmous with "greatness" and is still an extremely popular brand even today.

Jordan became a worldwide icon, and not only did he become a brand but also made the NBA grow considerably in the global market. Kobe Bryant and LeBron James would not be nearly as popular than if Jordan didn't exist. No player can repeat the audience that Jordan had.

Let's talk about Jordan's first retirement. He took off an entire season to play baseball and he came back to win another championship during his first full season back. He played as if nothing ever happened. If any other athelete missed an entire season, they would struggle. But Jordan did not, which further proves his greatness.

Anytime we play basketball we want to "Be Like Mike". He was the face of McDonalds, Nike, Gatroade, etc just to name a few. He still has that impact on the industry.

In fact NBA2K11 sold so well with him on the cover, and not nearly the sales Magic Johnson or Larry Bird got when they were on the cover. But hey we all want to be like Mike.

What number do you remember Magic, Bird, Russell, etc having? I can't even think of it on the top of my head, but anytime #23 shows up you know immediatley that was the number Jordan wore. Everybody knows it.

Peter is always clamoring on about how basketball is a team sport. Sure but who was at the very forefront? Michael Jordan. During the 95-96 season they only lost 10 games out of 82. Without Jordan's talent they would not have even come close to achieving this. The Bulls proved their regular season record by capturing their fourth title, a first in the second three-peat. Jordan averaged 30.5 points per game to propel the Bulls into perhaps one of the most unbreakable records in the history of the NBA.

I'm not going into stats, because there are plenty of stats and records he broke. But Michael Jordan was in a completely different realm than his peers and contemporaries. "His Airness" has proven how much an enduring legend he is, no NBA player has matched his granduer nor acclamation.

He is the greatest NBA player of all time.
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« Reply #2705 on: January 23, 2012, 10:00:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


People hate on Jordan just to hate sometimes.  Tongue

That is true, but nobody here has been hating on Jordan, quite the opposite.  EVERYBODY has unamimously agreed that Jordan is one of the all-time greats, but with basketball much like music, the top five and best ever usually are pretty equal, and there is no true number one.  It just works that way.  There is no "single greatest" of things which are art, because art is a matter of taste.  The single greatest applies to inanimate objects, not basketball.

There may be the single greatest at a particular shot, or most ring holder, or highest all time scorer, or other factual stat sheet oriented greatests, but there is simply no such thing as the single greatest in all categories, and barely even a top five without adjustments.  

So y'all should really just chill out, and learn to share opinions without an attitude problem, its supposed to be socializing and fun, not divisive and mean, even the athletes themselves are all great friends off the court, its just a game!

Maybe that is what makes the NFL better than NBA, the team mentality and sportsman like friendships are a cornerstone, where as basketball tends to be individual, media, and personality driven.

First of all look at the Jordan brand. It is practically synonmous with "greatness" and is still an extremely popular brand even today.

Jordan became a worldwide icon, and not only did he become a brand but also made the NBA grow considerably in the global market. Kobe Bryant and LeBron James would not be nearly as popular than if Jordan didn't exist. No player can repeat the audience that Jordan had.


Anytime we play basketball we want to "Be Like Mike". He was the face of McDonalds, Nike, Gatroade, etc just to name a few. He still has that impact on the industry.

In fact NBA2K11 sold so well with him on the cover, and not nearly the sales Magic Johnson or Larry Bird got when they were on the cover. But hey we all want to be like Mike.

What number do you remember Magic, Bird, Russell, etc having? I can't even think of it on the top of my head, but anytime #23 shows up you know immediatley that was the number Jordan wore. Everybody knows it.

Without Jordan's talent they would not have even come close to achieving this. The Bulls proved their regular season record by capturing their fourth title, a first in the second three-peat. Jordan averaged 30.5 points per game to propel the Bulls into perhaps one of the most unbreakable records in the history of the NBA.

I'm not going into stats, because there are plenty of stats and records he broke. But Michael Jordan was in a completely different realm than his peers and contemporaries. "

Excuse me but marketing does not equate with talent.  So what if Jordon is a marketing machine? What does that have anything to do with game? If anything, getting to much attention is precisely what has been hurting players like Dwight Howard and LeBron James, and if anything, all this new attention just might mess up teams like the Bulls and the Thunder too..

Sorry, that is media hype which pumps up Jordan.  It takes more than 1 player to win 72 games.  It takes more than 30.5 ppg to win 72 games and a championship.  Its not  fair to the entire Bulls franchise to diss them and pretend Jordon did those things by himself.  Further, it was already pointed out that Jordan was limited in his positions, whereas plenty of other players could play championship level at every position!! Its also been said that one of the keys to Jordon getting his second ring was Magic Johnson's  premature retirement.

With much respect and love, I must kindly say that yourself and my brother Gebre Menfes Kiddus have already discredited y'all own arguments by vainly trying to argue that there can be a single greatest any player, let alone Jordon pulling it off in an NBA vacuum.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #2706 on: January 23, 2012, 10:17:06 PM »

I was going to respond to Gebre's trashy response, but TheMathematician beat me to it.  Gebre: Your response is ripe with hypocrisy, bias, and arrogance.  When one wants to compare players of different eras, one must do so on equal footing, which you're not doing; otherwise, you're either guilty of lazy history, or stacking the deck.  It's like arguing that there may have never been a better player on Naismith's team than Jordan because he can dunk; it overlooks the fact that if you wish to compare apples-to-apples, you'd have to either have Naismith's players get trained in modern basketball, or have Jordan grow up with Naismith's version of the game (no dribbling, peach-basket hoop, no backboard at first, 1 point per basket, etc.).  There are semi-objective ways of determining this, but any analysis of one player against others of a different era has inherent subjective elements that cannot be dismissed - therefore rendering any argument of, "There's no doubt he's the best ever" ridiculous.  "Anyone who truly knows the game of basketball" - give me a break.  How have you factored in the addition of the 3-pointer, changes to the charge and block rules, the addition of the 3- and 5-second rules, etc. into your analysis?  YOU HAVEN'T!  Put Wilt in the same development track as Jordan, and we may very well have never heard of the UNC kid.

As to Achronos: You're assuming a lot viz-a-viz no one being able to do what Jordan did when he returned.  Not many, true, but there were ones who could pull that kind of stunt with no problem.

Most of your argument, though, could be countered with the following names:
Anna Kournikova, Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton, Danica Patrick...

Popularity does not necessarily come from astonishing success and does not necessarily indicate that one is at the top of their profession or skill set.  Jordan was marketed very well and was one of the best of all time; but his popularity doesn't make him absolutely the best with no question or debate.

But he peaked at the right time: basketball became big on TV, and a softer brand of star was dominating the league (Hakeem, the Admiral, Clyde, et al.).  Drop him and his skills in the '60s, '70s, or earlier '80s against your dynastic Lakers and Celtics squads, and he'd never win a title.  Have him dominate as a skilled player in that time period, and he'd have the same name recognition as the other stars of that time do (since basketball on TV wasn't nearly what it is now, and the athlete-endorser hadn't kicked into the stratospheric area that it was able to in the late '80s and '90s).

So, he was the 3rd best scorer (so far), one of the best defenders, a killer in the clutch - but that doesn't leave him objectively as the best all-time necessarily.  A reasonable argument can be made for others, too.

I really do think anyone whose position is, "Michael Jordan is the best ever, no question about it, there's no reason to debate it" crowd is really just a victim of excellent marketing from Nike et al., period.  Come back to the discussion forum when you're ready to engage in a real discussion.
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« Reply #2707 on: January 23, 2012, 10:18:08 PM »

That is true, but nobody here has been hating on Jordon, quite the opposite.  EVERYBODY has unamimously agreed that Jordon is one of the all-time greats, but with basketball much like music, the top five and best ever usually are pretty equal, and there is no true number one.  It just works that way.  There is no "single greatest" of things which are art, because art is a matter of taste.  The single greatest applies to inanimate objects, not basketball.

Except for misspelling his name, this is the smartest thing anyone has written on the subject in this thread.
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« Reply #2708 on: January 23, 2012, 10:22:49 PM »

Greetings to that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

That is true, but nobody here has been hating on Jordon, quite the opposite.  EVERYBODY has unamimously agreed that Jordon is one of the all-time greats, but with basketball much like music, the top five and best ever usually are pretty equal, and there is no true number one.  It just works that way.  There is no "single greatest" of things which are art, because art is a matter of taste.  The single greatest applies to inanimate objects, not basketball.

Except for misspelling his name, this is the smartest thing anyone has written on the subject in this thread.

Thank you Father, and sorry to MJ for the typos, I always misspell it on the computer for some weird reason..

I love me some Jordan, but I love me some of a lot of players, sometimes folks just get so carried away in the fashion.  Besides, after the Tim Donaghy  scandal (which was like the Iran Contra of basketball) what are we really arguing about, this whole NBA just might be completely or at least partly rigged and staged.  Would we get in such heated debates over the legacy of Macho Man vs Rick "Nature Boy" Flair or Bret the Hitman Heart?  Wink

stay blessed,
habte selasse
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« Reply #2709 on: January 23, 2012, 10:24:55 PM »

It's sad that our culture has become so soft and feminized that anyone who demands perfection and excellence both from themselves and from those around them is condemned as selfish and insufferable. I can assure you that any true competitor would gladly have suffered Jordan's demanding nature in order to win 6 NBA rings.

By the way, this argument reminds me of the stuff people say to justify abusive people in places of authority.

Jordan wasn't just harsh - he eviscerated his own teammates.  He tore them down personally.  He is vindictive and petty. (Um, induction to the hof speech, anyone?  I've watched it - apparently you haven't.)  He didn't just criticize their game to make them better - he frequently just wanted them to feel like dung.  There are plenty of interviews and articles on the subject.  News flash: He still is this way, by the way.  Just check out the difference in his treatment of potential labor strife when he was a player to his words and actions during the recent lock-out - total 180 turn.  He was more hard-line than most of the owners; many players commented that it was as if he never played the game professionally.

There are plenty of guys who are/were tough, unrelenting, and hard to work with.  But most of the time they weren't making personal attacks.  You should quit the whole, "Our whole culture has become soft and feminized" bit - it's intellectually lazy, and poorly supported in the current context (there are plenty of other places where it could apply, trust me).
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« Reply #2710 on: January 23, 2012, 10:25:27 PM »

Greetings to that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

That is true, but nobody here has been hating on Jordon, quite the opposite.  EVERYBODY has unamimously agreed that Jordon is one of the all-time greats, but with basketball much like music, the top five and best ever usually are pretty equal, and there is no true number one.  It just works that way.  There is no "single greatest" of things which are art, because art is a matter of taste.  The single greatest applies to inanimate objects, not basketball.

Except for misspelling his name, this is the smartest thing anyone has written on the subject in this thread.

Thank you Father, and sorry to MJ for the typos, I always misspell it on the computer for some weird reason..

I love me some Jordan, but I love me some of a lot of players, sometimes folks just get so carried away in the fashion.  Besides, after the Tim Donaghy  scandal (which was like the Iran Contra of basketball) what are we really arguing about, this whole NBA just might be completely or at least partly rigged and staged.  Would we get in such heated debates over the legacy of Macho Man vs Rick "Nature Boy" Flair or Bret the Hitman Heart?  Wink

stay blessed,
habte selasse

Great example. Wink
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« Reply #2711 on: January 23, 2012, 10:49:22 PM »

Jordan had one semi-great teammate (Pippen) and a host of role players, and won 6 championships. Could have won more had he not retired mid-career. He was as clutch as anyone at the end of a game. How many scoring titles and MVPs did he win? How many more MVPs SHOULD he have won but didn't?

Anyone who thinks he was overrated obviously never lived in Chicago and got to see how many times he went into God mode to turn a loss into a win. The guy was a competitive monster.

Plus Jordan kept Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Reggie Miller, and Patrick Ewing from ever winning a championship.
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« Reply #2712 on: January 23, 2012, 10:58:10 PM »

I was going to respond to Gebre's trashy response, but TheMathematician beat me to it.  Gebre: Your response is ripe with hypocrisy, bias, and arrogance.  When one wants to compare players of different eras, one must do so on equal footing, which you're not doing; otherwise, you're either guilty of lazy history, or stacking the deck.  It's like arguing that there may have never been a better player on Naismith's team than Jordan because he can dunk; it overlooks the fact that if you wish to compare apples-to-apples, you'd have to either have Naismith's players get trained in modern basketball, or have Jordan grow up with Naismith's version of the game (no dribbling, peach-basket hoop, no backboard at first, 1 point per basket, etc.).  There are semi-objective ways of determining this, but any analysis of one player against others of a different era has inherent subjective elements that cannot be dismissed - therefore rendering any argument of, "There's no doubt he's the best ever" ridiculous.  "Anyone who truly knows the game of basketball" - give me a break.  How have you factored in the addition of the 3-pointer, changes to the charge and block rules, the addition of the 3- and 5-second rules, etc. into your analysis?  YOU HAVEN'T!  Put Wilt in the same development track as Jordan, and we may very well have never heard of the UNC kid.

As to Achronos: You're assuming a lot viz-a-viz no one being able to do what Jordan did when he returned.  Not many, true, but there were ones who could pull that kind of stunt with no problem.

Most of your argument, though, could be countered with the following names:
Anna Kournikova, Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton, Danica Patrick...

Popularity does not necessarily come from astonishing success and does not necessarily indicate that one is at the top of their profession or skill set.  Jordan was marketed very well and was one of the best of all time; but his popularity doesn't make him absolutely the best with no question or debate.

But he peaked at the right time: basketball became big on TV, and a softer brand of star was dominating the league (Hakeem, the Admiral, Clyde, et al.).  Drop him and his skills in the '60s, '70s, or earlier '80s against your dynastic Lakers and Celtics squads, and he'd never win a title.  Have him dominate as a skilled player in that time period, and he'd have the same name recognition as the other stars of that time do (since basketball on TV wasn't nearly what it is now, and the athlete-endorser hadn't kicked into the stratospheric area that it was able to in the late '80s and '90s).

So, he was the 3rd best scorer (so far), one of the best defenders, a killer in the clutch - but that doesn't leave him objectively as the best all-time necessarily.  A reasonable argument can be made for others, too.

I really do think anyone whose position is, "Michael Jordan is the best ever, no question about it, there's no reason to debate it" crowd is really just a victim of excellent marketing from Nike et al., period.  Come back to the discussion forum when you're ready to engage in a real discussion.

I don't think you realize the power of a superstar. Did Jordan not merit all of the attention, endorsments, advertising, etc? Part of his greatness is actually part of the icon. No other NBA player matched it.
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« Reply #2713 on: January 23, 2012, 11:28:25 PM »

MY God change the subject.
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« Reply #2714 on: January 23, 2012, 11:34:00 PM »

MY God change the subject.

Let's talk about golf then.

You know when Jordan was out playing 18 holes...
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« Reply #2715 on: January 23, 2012, 11:52:29 PM »

MY God change the subject.
hows the gold old rugby going for you?
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« Reply #2716 on: January 24, 2012, 12:11:23 AM »

MY God change the subject.
I can't decide whether I'm excited that Dalton made the Pro-Bowl or depressed that Rapistburger's gonna get all the playtime.
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« Reply #2717 on: January 24, 2012, 12:27:02 AM »

MY God change the subject.
hows the gold old rugby going for you?

Well, we have our game against UL Lafayette of Saturday, I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to be starting @ #12, so it'll be fun!
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« Reply #2718 on: January 24, 2012, 12:33:06 AM »

MY God change the subject.
hows the gold old rugby going for you?

Well, we have our game against UL Lafayette of Saturday, I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to be starting @ #12, so it'll be fun!

blech, you backs cant play rugby.
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« Reply #2719 on: January 24, 2012, 01:20:09 AM »

MY God change the subject.
hows the gold old rugby going for you?

Well, we have our game against UL Lafayette of Saturday, I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to be starting @ #12, so it'll be fun!

blech, you backs cant play rugby.

Boy, I was a hooker in the beginning of my career. I'm 240 lbs, so just because I'm a back doesnt mean I'm a wimp. It just means I'm an athlete.
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« Reply #2720 on: January 24, 2012, 01:29:04 AM »

Daniel can down 2lbs of Hash Browns. How's that for athletic.
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« Reply #2721 on: January 24, 2012, 02:11:23 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Jordan had one semi-great teammate (Pippen) and a host of role players, and won 6 championships.



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« Reply #2722 on: January 24, 2012, 02:20:53 AM »

Jordan had one semi-great teammate (Pippen) and a host of role players, and won 6 championships.
Jordan had in Pippen a teammate who could actually direct their offense and involve his teammates in ways that Jordan never would or could. As I've already mentioned, the Bulls were much better with Pippen and no Jordan than they ever were with Jordan and no Pippen. Take away Pippen's expertise as a point-forward, and you merely have a team with a ball hog who scores 35 points per game but stifles his team's offense by never empowering his teammates to do anything but stand around and watch.

Could have won more had he not retired mid-career.
Magic Johnson could have won more titles had he not retired mid-career, and that would have cut pieces out of Jordan's pie. Hell! Larry Bird could have won another title had he not retired prematurely. Jordan happened to peak at a time when the Bulls were really the only great team in the NBA. That's not saying much.

He was as clutch as anyone at the end of a game. How many scoring titles and MVPs did he win?
One of the smartest things Wilt Chamberlain did was stop trying to score so many points when his team finally had scorers and could afford to have him focus on other aspects of his game, aspects such as defense, rebounding, and passing. Are you aware that in the second half of his career, Wilt was actually the only center ever to lead the NBA in assists for a season? How's that for adapting his game to give his team whatever they needed to win? Jordan was never happy unless he was his team's leading scorer, but leading his team or the league in scoring does not in itself win championships.

How many more MVPs SHOULD he have won but didn't?
An individual award that does not prove true greatness as a team player.

Anyone who thinks he was overrated obviously never lived in Chicago and got to see how many times he went into God mode to turn a loss into a win.
Logical fallacy right on par with Gebre's laundry list of logical fallacies. Not living in Chicago has given me the objectivity to be able to investigate the record books and ask the hard questions you're evidently too lazy or brainwashed to ask.

The guy was a competitive monster.
Yeah, competitive enough to lose a buttload of money on the craps table.

Plus Jordan kept Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Reggie Miller, and Patrick Ewing from ever winning a championship.
No, the Bulls kept Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Miller, and Ewing from ever winning a championship, and there's no guarantee they would have won titles had Jordan NOT been in the league. Ewing also had his chance against Olajuwon in the 1994 finals but didn't capitalize, so it wasn't just Jordan and the Bulls who stopped Ewing and his Knicks.

Considering that you like to play the woulda coulda shoulda game, I'll play a bit of it myself. If the Trail Blazers had had Arvydas Sabonis in his prime before he blew out his Achilles tendon, together with Clyde, Terry Porter, and Jerome Kersey, I think we would be talking today about how the Blazers were the dynasty of the 90's, and nobody would remember how we passed on Jordan in the 1984 draft.
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« Reply #2723 on: January 24, 2012, 02:22:22 AM »

Boy, I was a hooker in the beginning of my career.
Do you realize how bad that sounds? LMAO! laugh
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« Reply #2724 on: January 24, 2012, 02:35:14 AM »

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant
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« Reply #2725 on: January 24, 2012, 02:53:42 AM »

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant
Yeah, we have a word for someone with that attitude. It's synonymous with anus.
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« Reply #2726 on: January 24, 2012, 03:54:00 AM »

Daniel can down 2lbs of Hash Browns. How's that for athletic.

Darn straight! And I didnt gain an ounce of fat.  Wink
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« Reply #2727 on: January 24, 2012, 03:55:32 AM »

Boy, I was a hooker in the beginning of my career.
Do you realize how bad that sounds? LMAO! laugh

My word, I just realized that. lol.  Cheesy
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« Reply #2728 on: January 24, 2012, 04:09:15 AM »

I would address each point you made Peter but the problem here is we aren't really in a realm of objectivity. Okay yeah it might sound like I'm objective by saying Jordan is GOAT but this is all subjective. And granted I think in the case of Jordan there are two persepctives: those that think he is the greatest and those that think he is not.

Michael Jordan dominated the NBA at a time when the rules made it difficult for guards to succeed, and he also has the edge over a lot of legends in the realm of advanced statistics. His teams also won a lot more with him than without him, and he compiled a lot of impressing counting stats and accolades.

There is definitely data to support the claim that he is the greatest of all time.

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant
Yeah, we have a word for someone with that attitude. It's synonymous with anus.
Everyone knows Michael Jordan was a tremendous "synonymous with anus", which has no bearing on his value as a player but is worth mentioning I suppose.
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« Reply #2729 on: January 24, 2012, 11:41:52 AM »

MY God change the subject.
hows the gold old rugby going for you?

Well, we have our game against UL Lafayette of Saturday, I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to be starting @ #12, so it'll be fun!

blech, you backs cant play rugby.

Boy, I was a hooker in the beginning of my career. I'm 240 lbs, so just because I'm a back doesnt mean I'm a wimp. It just means I'm an athlete.
aye, but that doesnt mean you are a rugby player :p

you must have lost your skills somnewhere along the way fofr you to get moved from hooker to centre

you want real athletes and rugby players, come see us flankers
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« Reply #2730 on: January 24, 2012, 12:04:39 PM »

Anyone ready for baseball yet?? The Nationals got Prince Fielder... which sucks for the Braves and the rest of the NL East.  However, the NL East is gonna be an EXTREMELY powerful division, as it has been for quite some time.  From top to bottom, it may be better than the AL East now.

Also, it looks like the Braves are on track to have the lowest payroll in the NL East within the next couple of years.  Who wouldve thought??

Oh well... Ill still be tomahawk choppin all season!!!
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« Reply #2731 on: January 24, 2012, 12:57:56 PM »

I would address each point you made Peter but the problem here is we aren't really in a realm of objectivity. Okay yeah it might sound like I'm objective by saying Jordan is GOAT but this is all subjective. And granted I think in the case of Jordan there are two persepctives: those that think he is the greatest and those that think he is not.

Michael Jordan dominated the NBA at a time when the rules made it difficult for guards to succeed, and he also has the edge over a lot of legends in the realm of advanced statistics. His teams also won a lot more with him than without him,
As has already been mentioned, the Bulls won 55 games and advanced to the Eastern Conference Finals in the one full year that Jordan sat out during his first retirement, and with Pippen running the offense without Jordan's ball hogging, he, Horace Grant, and maybe a few other teammates had the best year of their career. Before the Bulls drafted Pippen, they never even had a winning season with Jordan in the lineup.

Another stat that has been used to gauge a player's impact on his team is improvement in W-L percentage the year the player joins the league. Jordan really didn't have that kind of immediate impact on his team's fortunes. The Bulls were a losing team without him, and they were a losing team their first few years with him. No one will consider his HOF classmate David Robinson to be on the same level of greatness, but his rookie season the Spurs improved from 20 wins to 55 and made it to the Western Conference Semifinals, at that time the single greatest improvement from one season to the next in NBA history. Other great players such as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Magic Johnson also had such immediate impacts on their team's success. Jordan? Not so much. He didn't take the Bulls and immediately make them a winning team.

and he compiled a lot of impressing counting stats and accolades.

There is definitely data to support the claim that he is the greatest of all time.
And there is definitely data to suggest that others may be more worthy of being considered the greatest of all time.

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant
Yeah, we have a word for someone with that attitude. It's synonymous with anus.
Everyone knows Michael Jordan was a tremendous "synonymous with anus", which has no bearing on his value as a player but is worth mentioning I suppose.
Actually, in my estimation, his disdain toward his teammates has a lot to do with his value as a player. Basketball isn't a game of one-on-one.
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« Reply #2732 on: January 24, 2012, 01:16:00 PM »

Anyone ready for baseball yet?? The Nationals got Prince Fielder... which sucks for the Braves and the rest of the NL East.  However, the NL East is gonna be an EXTREMELY powerful division, as it has been for quite some time.  From top to bottom, it may be better than the AL East now.

Also, it looks like the Braves are on track to have the lowest payroll in the NL East within the next couple of years.  Who wouldve thought??

Oh well... Ill still be tomahawk choppin all season!!!

The Mets are probably worse, so take heart Braves fans!
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« Reply #2733 on: January 24, 2012, 01:28:53 PM »

Yuz guyz (Oops..and Rev. Father) all arguing basketball...basketball...c'mon Feb 5th is just around the corner.

Here's to a repeat of history!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27XeNefwABw
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« Reply #2734 on: January 24, 2012, 01:41:46 PM »

Anyone ready for baseball yet?? The Nationals got Prince Fielder... which sucks for the Braves and the rest of the NL East.  However, the NL East is gonna be an EXTREMELY powerful division, as it has been for quite some time.  From top to bottom, it may be better than the AL East now.

Also, it looks like the Braves are on track to have the lowest payroll in the NL East within the next couple of years.  Who wouldve thought??

Oh well... Ill still be tomahawk choppin all season!!!

The Mets are probably worse, so take heart Braves fans!


The Mets are looking like they will be the only bad team in the NL East this year.  I bet they finish dead last.  And thats fine by me! Smiley 

Braves have more young talent than we know what to do with.  Its good for now, but with our shrinking payroll, im sure these young studs will end up on the Yankees, Red Sox, or Phillies within the next few years...
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« Reply #2735 on: January 24, 2012, 01:46:52 PM »

MY God change the subject.
hows the gold old rugby going for you?

Well, we have our game against UL Lafayette of Saturday, I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to be starting @ #12, so it'll be fun!

blech, you backs cant play rugby.

Boy, I was a hooker in the beginning of my career. I'm 240 lbs, so just because I'm a back doesnt mean I'm a wimp. It just means I'm an athlete.
aye, but that doesnt mean you are a rugby player :p

you must have lost your skills somnewhere along the way fofr you to get moved from hooker to centre

you want real athletes and rugby players, come see us flankers

If anything Im actually more athletic. AKA I have to carry the ball more at #12, rather than just being a big body.

You probably think lineman are better athletes than running backs too! lmao!

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« Reply #2736 on: January 24, 2012, 03:01:14 PM »

Yuz guyz (Oops..and Rev. Father) all arguing basketball...basketball...c'mon Feb 5th is just around the corner.

I'd rather not argue basketball, but some people need to tone down their rhetoric in GOAT conversations.

More important than roman-numeral-fest: Pitchers and Catchers report in just under a month!
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« Reply #2737 on: January 24, 2012, 04:57:03 PM »

Anyone ready for baseball yet?? The Nationals got Prince Fielder... which sucks for the Braves and the rest of the NL East.  However, the NL East is gonna be an EXTREMELY powerful division, as it has been for quite some time.  From top to bottom, it may be better than the AL East now.

Also, it looks like the Braves are on track to have the lowest payroll in the NL East within the next couple of years.  Who wouldve thought??

Oh well... Ill still be tomahawk choppin all season!!!

The Mets are probably worse, so take heart Braves fans!


The Mets are looking like they will be the only bad team in the NL East this year.  I bet they finish dead last.  And thats fine by me! Smiley 

Braves have more young talent than we know what to do with.  Its good for now, but with our shrinking payroll, im sure these young studs will end up on the Yankees, Red Sox, or Phillies within the next few years...

Considering the quality of your predictions, I think everybody between Brooklyn and Nassau Co.'s going to be just fine.  Wink Grin
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« Reply #2738 on: January 24, 2012, 06:26:54 PM »

The Manning family, years ago. Nice slideshow.  Smiley
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« Reply #2739 on: January 24, 2012, 06:37:58 PM »

The Manning family, years ago. Nice slideshow.  Smiley

Nice!
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« Reply #2740 on: January 24, 2012, 06:44:37 PM »

Anyone ready for baseball yet?? The Nationals got Prince Fielder... which sucks for the Braves and the rest of the NL East.  However, the NL East is gonna be an EXTREMELY powerful division, as it has been for quite some time.  From top to bottom, it may be better than the AL East now.

Also, it looks like the Braves are on track to have the lowest payroll in the NL East within the next couple of years.  Who wouldve thought??

Oh well... Ill still be tomahawk choppin all season!!!

I just read that Fielder signed a nine year $214 million deal with the Tigers. I guess when Victor Martinez went down for the season, the Tigers entered the fray for Fielder. Still, that's more money than I thought he would get. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/person-familiar-with-agreement-fielder-and-tigers-close-to-9-year-deal-for-about-200-million/2012/01/24/gIQAYlE9NQ_story.html
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« Reply #2741 on: January 24, 2012, 06:50:40 PM »

More important than roman-numeral-fest: Pitchers and Catchers report in just under a month!

LOL, well who am I to argue...

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« Reply #2742 on: January 24, 2012, 08:05:01 PM »

As has already been mentioned, the Bulls won 55 games and advanced to the Eastern Conference Finals in the one full year that Jordan sat out during his first retirement,
That's not really surprising I'd say. The 1993-94 Bulls were really good, they had one of the best forwards and arguably the best defensive player ever (Pippen), several other really good players (Toni Kukoc, Grant, BJ Armstrong), some good role-players (e.g. Steve Kerr), and a bunch of seven-foot stiffs each to make Shaq shoot 12 free throws instead of six dunks. The whole team played really hard and inspired this year, I think to prove their success was from more than just Jordan. The next year they lost Grant to free agency and were pretty bad until Jordan unretired and they finished on a 15-3 run or something like that.

Scottie Pippen prior to his back becoming a rigid body was basically proto-LeBron, he was really really good.

Quote
and with Pippen running the offense without Jordan's ball hogging, he, Horace Grant, and maybe a few other teammates had the best year of their career.
He was a ball hog in the sense that he took a lot of shots, but not at a historic level (his FGA/game is pretty similar to other transcendent scorers) and he was the best player ever so nobody really minded. He played within the offense most of the game, it wasn't usually Jordan isos and everyone else get out of the way.

Being a ball hog is different from being the dude that takes the shot on your team's possessions. Carmelo, Iverson, Kobe are/were complete ball hogs. Jordan just took a lot of shots.

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Before the Bulls drafted Pippen, they never even had a winning season with Jordan in the lineup.
True although Pippen is literally one of the best small forwards ever so I don't think it's surprising that the team got really good after he was added.

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Actually, in my estimation, his disdain toward his teammates has a lot to do with his value as a player. Basketball isn't a game of one-on-one.
Jordan was and is an overly competitive "synonymous with anus".
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« Reply #2743 on: January 24, 2012, 08:11:05 PM »

1. He won 6 NBA Titles

Bill Russell won 11, Sam Jones won 10, Tom Heinsohn won 8, K.C. Jones won 8, John Havlicek won 8, Bob Cousy won 6, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar won 6.

2. Jordan had no weaknesses in his game.

That being said, he wasn't good at everything either. He wasn't a great 3 point shooter, nor was he great at rebounding and assists. And there are multiple players who have played in the NBA without any particular weaknesses.

3. He had a great Jump shot.

This is a characteristic of many players. Kobe Bryant's jump shot is great too.

4. He could use either hand, able to go to his left as well as his right.

David Lee, Derrick Rose, Andrew Bogut and Michael Beasley can use either hand too.

5. He was a great ball handler.

There many good ball handlers in the NBA.

6. He was a great rebounder.

6.2 rebounds per game isn't really great. Examples of actual great rebounders: Larry Bird (10.0), Dennis Rodman (13.1), Bill Russell (22.5), Wilt Chamberlain (22.9).

7. Best driving ability ever.

That's totally opinionated.

8. Excellent defender (he led the league in steals more than once, and was named defensive player of the year. He was also a great shot blocker.)

He was great at steals, but he only had a few seasons where he was a great shot blocker. A career average of 0.8 blocks per game isn't really special. Examples of actual great shot blockers: Hakeem Olajuwon (3.0), Shaquille O'Neal (2.3), Mark Eaton (3.5), Elmore Smith (2.9). By the way, Ben Wallace was named Defensive Player of the Year 4 times, Dwight Howard 3 times, and Dikembe Mutombo 4 times.

9. He made his teammates better (just ask anyone who played with him.)

Scottie Pippen had the best season of his career without Michael Jordan. In fact, both Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant did better the year Michael Jordan was first retired. Dennis Rodman had already established himself as a great rebounder and defender when he was on the Pistons.

4. He possessed a wonderful basketball IQ.

So did Larry Bird.

5. He had an unparralleled work ethic.

Actually, he was one of the biggest ball hogs to ever play in the NBA. As Doug Collins once said, "Do you know who's the biggest obstacle to us running? Michael Jordan, that's who. He won't let go of the ball."

6. His competitive streak was next to none.

As could be said about many players with multiple rings.




Michael Jordan is elite, but he's not untouchable.


You are actually making my point without realizing it. Nobody you mentioned here possessed the combination of all these skills. There have been better p
ure shooters, better rebounders, better ball handlers, etc.; but no NBA player has ever possessed the perfect combination of all these attributes. Also, please understand that Jordan was constantly improving as well. You can't judge him simply by the player he was early in his career.


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First of all, Michael Jordan does not possess a perfect combination of skills; the only areas in which he excelled were points per game, steals per game, and field goal percentage. His rebounds per game, blocks per game, free throw percentage, three point field goal percentage, and assists per game are a bit short of special. Second of all, there are some players out there who have combinations that, while not perfect, are outstanding nonetheless (I'm not comparing them to Michael Jordan, though):


Larry Bird: 24.3 points per game, 10.0 rebounds per game, 49.7 field goal percentage, 37.6 three point field goal percentage, 88.6 free throw percentage, 1.7 steals per game

Wilt Chamberlain: 30.1 points per game, 22.9 rebounds per game, 54.0 field goal percentage (blocks per game weren't recorded yet, but he was known to be great at shot blocking)

Hakeem Olajuwon: 21.8 points per game, 11.1 rebounds per game, 51.2 field goal percentage, 1.8 steals per game, 3.0 blocks per game

Magic Johnson: 19.5 points per game, 11.2 assists per game, 52.0 field goal percentage, 1.9 steals per game

Dirk Nowitzki: 22.9 points per game, 8.3 rebounds per game, 47.6 field goal percentage, 37.9 three point field goal percentage, 87.7 free throw percentage, 1.0 block per game

Elvin Hayes: 21.0 points per game, 12.5 rebounds per game, 1.0 steals per game, 1.9 blocks per game

Reggie Miller: 18.2 points per game, 47.1 field goal percentage, 39.5 three point field goal percentage, 88.8 free throw percentage, 1.1 steals per game

Patrick Ewing: 21.0 points per game, 9.8 rebounds per game, 50.4 field goal percentage, 1.0 steals per game, 2.4 blocks per game

Julius Erving: 22.0 points per game, 50.7 field goal percentage, 1.8 steals per game, 1.5 blocks per game
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« Reply #2744 on: January 24, 2012, 08:41:32 PM »

Yuz guyz (Oops..and Rev. Father) all arguing basketball...basketball...c'mon Feb 5th is just around the corner.

I'd rather not argue basketball, but some people need to tone down their rhetoric in GOAT conversations.

More important than roman-numeral-fest: Pitchers and Catchers report in just under a month!
I'd list Bill Russell as the GOAT for the NBA. I don't actually know anything about basketball beyond watching Space Jam and those episodes of Static Shock that guest-starred Shaq when I was a kid and listening to the various unprintable things said about LeBron you hear around Ohio, but that's what my dad says, and he seems like he'd know about this sort of thing.
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