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Author Topic: The Sports Thread  (Read 416156 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #1215 on: June 06, 2010, 01:54:07 AM »

Note that I didn't say that a hitting streak in college is of no significance.  It is indeed of great significance, but it needs to be seen in relation to its context, its level of play.  An 80-game hitting streak in college ball is a very big deal that should be covered by ESPN, but there's no way you can compare it to a 56-game hitting streak in the major leagues.  We're talking two totally different levels of play here.

Agreed.   Smiley

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« Reply #1216 on: June 09, 2010, 02:28:45 PM »

Stephen Strasburg's MLB debut against the Pirates: 7 Innings, 14 strikeouts, no walks, 2 ER, struck out the last 7 hitters he faced before being removed after throwing just ... 94 pitches.  Only 2 pitchers struck more in their first MLB start.
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« Reply #1217 on: June 09, 2010, 03:17:26 PM »

Stephen Strasburg's MLB debut against the Pirates: 7 Innings, 14 strikeouts, no walks, 2 ER, struck out the last 7 hitters he faced before being removed after throwing just ... 94 pitches.  Only 2 pitchers struck more in their first MLB start.

Well it was against the Pirates Wink

But seriously, a very impressive showing. Awesome fastball, nice curveball...I think there might be a place for him in MLB. Grin
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« Reply #1218 on: June 09, 2010, 06:35:13 PM »

Pirates or no, very impressive.  Of course, only time will tell if the hype is justified or not Cheesy
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« Reply #1219 on: June 09, 2010, 07:40:17 PM »

Pirates or no, very impressive.  Of course, only time will tell if the hype is justified or not Cheesy

Of course, but it speaks very well of him that he pitched as a starter in the majors only one year after being drafted. This is obviously not a fluke performance for him (though it's obviously the first time he's played at this level). I have money that he'll do well in the league, provided he doesn't get injured.
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« Reply #1220 on: June 09, 2010, 09:58:36 PM »

Agreed.  Very well indeed.
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« Reply #1221 on: June 10, 2010, 12:37:27 AM »

Pirates or no, very impressive.  Of course, only time will tell if the hype is justified or not Cheesy

Of course, but it speaks very well of him that he pitched as a starter in the majors only one year after being drafted. This is obviously not a fluke performance for him (though it's obviously the first time he's played at this level). I have money that he'll do well in the league, provided he doesn't get injured.
Follow a developmental schedule that doesn't make him the ace of the big league rotation (200+ innings per year) for a few years, and he should be okay.  He could probably be the ace today, but why have him pitch so many big innings before he's shown himself strong enough physically and mentally to handle the workload?
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« Reply #1222 on: June 10, 2010, 12:51:02 AM »

Pirates or no, very impressive.  Of course, only time will tell if the hype is justified or not Cheesy

Of course, but it speaks very well of him that he pitched as a starter in the majors only one year after being drafted. This is obviously not a fluke performance for him (though it's obviously the first time he's played at this level). I have money that he'll do well in the league, provided he doesn't get injured.
Follow a developmental schedule that doesn't make him the ace of the big league rotation (200+ innings per year) for a few years, and he should be okay.  He could probably be the ace today, but why have him pitch so many big innings before he's shown himself strong enough physically and mentally to handle the workload?

That's certainly the smart move, but I have mixed feelings about it, there was a time when pitchers had little trouble pitching a double header and getting back to back wins. There may be a higher level of play today, though I'm not entirely convinced of that. But in any case, a pitcher shouldn't be tired after 100-125 pitches. Unfortunately people are trained this way starting with little league, there's never the expectation to throw 200+ pitches and because of that there's rarely the ability to throw even 150. Granted, if this were expected of pitchers, many today wouldn't be where they are, they would have thrown their arms out long ago, but the strongest amongst them would have excelled.

I do think that MLB is the best sports on earth today, but it isn't the game it was a hundred years ago.

Oh, well, enough of that rant. I'm sure I'm in the minority in both those statements. Wink
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« Reply #1223 on: June 10, 2010, 06:59:20 AM »

^Oh, I think the pitch count has killed modern pitching to a certain degree; we need to see more self-determination, and more "getting out of serious jams" - things that have been eliminated by the quick hook and the pitch count.  I certainly want to see fewer relievers in the game... Too many cooks are involved and, thus, more room for error.
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« Reply #1224 on: June 10, 2010, 07:13:01 AM »

^Oh, I think the pitch count has killed modern pitching to a certain degree; we need to see more self-determination, and more "getting out of serious jams" - things that have been eliminated by the quick hook and the pitch count.  I certainly want to see fewer relievers in the game... Too many cooks are involved and, thus, more room for error.
I agree with you to a certain extent, but I've seen LaRussa leave a pitcher in after he's given up six runs too often to agree fully. In fact, I saw that very thing last Monday...twice. Yes, indeed. Blake Hawksworth and P.J. Walters each gave up six runs in four innings--and LaRussa left them in the game. We lost 12-4 to the Dodgers. Then he had the audacity to call it a "throwaway game." Look, I realize that two of our starting pitchers are on the DL right now, and I also realize that no Major League team wins all their games--2/3 is incredible in this league--but if you're not even going to try to win the game, why are you playing it?
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« Reply #1225 on: June 10, 2010, 08:18:54 AM »

I think there is something to be said for letting a pitcher get really beat up in a game, and then helping them move past it.  I remember a young pitcher or two with the late-90s Indians who were frequently bailed out early, and then did poorly in the Postseason because they didn't have the "chops" to pitch out of small jams.
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« Reply #1226 on: June 10, 2010, 07:59:42 PM »

OK, folks; don't say I didn't warn you:
http://ucla.freedomblogging.com/2010/06/10...e-pac-10/16317/
Colorado is leaving the Big 12 for the Pac 10.  It begins in the West, just as I called it; no telling where it will end.
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« Reply #1227 on: June 10, 2010, 08:15:44 PM »

OK, folks; don't say I didn't warn you:
http://ucla.freedomblogging.com/2010/06/10...e-pac-10/16317/
Colorado is leaving the Big 12 for the Pac 10.  It begins in the West, just as I called it; no telling where it will end.


The SEC doesn't need to do a thing. Let all these other conferences do whatever they want. The SEC will still dominate college football. Quality over quantity. I just hope Mike Slive understands this.


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« Reply #1228 on: June 10, 2010, 08:30:51 PM »

I think there is something to be said for letting a pitcher get really beat up in a game, and then helping them move past it.  I remember a young pitcher or two with the late-90s Indians who were frequently bailed out early, and then did poorly in the Postseason because they didn't have the "chops" to pitch out of small jams.
Then there's also the situation with an established veteran, Pedro Martinez, being left in a playoff game a bit too long and blowing all of a 3-run lead that he helped build with his otherwise outstanding pitching.  I think the Yankees ended up winning that ALCS game to clinch their series win over the Red Sox when Aaron Boone spanked the first pitch of the 13th inning for a walk-off home run.  IIRC, that strategical "blunder" on the part of manager Grady Little was a leading factor in his firing during the off-season.  The moral of this story is that there's just no easy answer to the question of whether to leave your starter in the game to work out of a jam or pull him in favor of a reliever.  (Maybe during the regular season it's wise to develop mental toughness in a young starter by leaving him in games to work out of jams, but in the playoffs, where winning is paramount and one loss can doom your hopes of advancing to the next round, you probably want to see the manager employ a much quicker hook.)
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« Reply #1229 on: June 10, 2010, 08:54:16 PM »

^ I remember that game - it was a big jam.  I'm talking about giving some guys a bit of a rough-up in the regular season to prepare them, so that small jams in the postseason don't turn into big jams.
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« Reply #1230 on: June 10, 2010, 09:57:39 PM »

Quote
The SEC doesn't need to do a thing. Let all these other conferences do whatever they want. The SEC will still dominate college football. Quality over quantity. I just hope Mike Slive understands this.

Indeed, the SEC is now at its optimum size and parity; it need not get involved in the shuffle.

If the Big 10 invites Nebraska, as expected, it may be a sign that Notre Dame has rejected them and decided to continue to rely on its fading cachet.

The Big 12 could easily solve its problem by inviting TCU and SMU  to join them.  SMU is a problematical football entity, but it does have favorable location.  And June Jones does want to turn the Ponies into a football power.

The real crunch is going to come among the "lesser" conferences, especally if any of the big boys decide they want to go to more than a dozen football teams.  A reallignment in the West is inevitable, and there may be some reallignments in the East as well, if only to build some form of protection against raiding by other conferences.  Interesting times, in the sence of the old Chinese curse.
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« Reply #1231 on: June 13, 2010, 01:44:53 AM »

WOW! Shocked  Daniel Nava gets the call to play his first Major League game for the Boston Red Sox, and what does he do?  He promptly hits the first pitch he sees for a grand slam.  Talk about starting his Major League career with a bang! Shocked

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=300612102&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines
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« Reply #1232 on: June 13, 2010, 06:06:39 AM »

Our wonderkid did his part today, too.  Carlos Santana had a double and a homer in his 2nd and 3rd MLB at-bats, keying a rout of the Nationals:

http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=300612105&teams=washington-nationals-vs-cleveland-indians
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« Reply #1233 on: June 14, 2010, 09:48:57 AM »

Husker fans - welcome to the Big 10.  Enjoy!
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« Reply #1234 on: June 15, 2010, 10:23:35 PM »

So far, it looks as if the Lakers are determined to push this series to 7 games.  They're up 20 at the half and have the Celtic offense totally shut down, save for a bit of hot shooting from Ray Allen.
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« Reply #1235 on: June 15, 2010, 10:32:47 PM »

save for a bit of hot shooting from Ray Allen.

Isn't it always, "a bit of hot shooting?"  Why is it never, "a series of hot shooting," from him?
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« Reply #1236 on: June 15, 2010, 10:36:53 PM »

Celtics getting no calls. Too much money at stake to allow the series to end tonight. Sad but true I'm afraid.


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« Reply #1237 on: June 15, 2010, 10:46:08 PM »

Celtics getting no calls. Too much money at stake to allow the series to end tonight. Sad but true I'm afraid.

I usually don't subscribe to the, "team X is getting no calls," philosophy of sports watching.  As popular as maligning referees can be, people don't know better than they do; I usually cannot find even 1 person in 100 who actually knows the wording of the NBA's traveling violation rule, for example.
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« Reply #1238 on: June 15, 2010, 11:11:19 PM »

save for a bit of hot shooting from Ray Allen.

Isn't it always, "a bit of hot shooting?"  Why is it never, "a series of hot shooting," from him?
I notice that by the end of three quarters, four Celtics have scored in double digits, but no one else on the team has scored a single d**n point!
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« Reply #1239 on: June 15, 2010, 11:12:07 PM »

Celtics getting no calls. Too much money at stake to allow the series to end tonight. Sad but true I'm afraid.

I usually don't subscribe to the, "team X is getting no calls," philosophy of sports watching.  As popular as maligning referees can be, people don't know better than they do; I usually cannot find even 1 person in 100 who actually knows the wording of the NBA's traveling violation rule, for example.

Well, I'm not emotionally invested in this series. I am for Boston, but I don't care that much. It just seems obvious that they want it to go 7 games. But with the Lakers winning by this much, I don't think officiating can be blamed for Boston losing this one. Great defense by the Lakers tonight.


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« Reply #1240 on: June 15, 2010, 11:40:30 PM »

In his 13th season guiding a team to the NBA Finals, Coach Phil Jackson FINALLY gets to coach a Finals Game 7.
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« Reply #1241 on: June 15, 2010, 11:56:21 PM »

In his 13th season guiding a team to the NBA Finals, Coach Phil Jackson FINALLY gets to coach a Finals Game 7.


That is quite a stat.



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« Reply #1242 on: June 16, 2010, 01:02:21 AM »

In his 13th season guiding a team to the NBA Finals, Coach Phil Jackson FINALLY gets to coach a Finals Game 7.


That is quite a stat.



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« Reply #1243 on: June 16, 2010, 06:38:57 AM »

Isn't it always, "a bit of hot shooting?"  Why is it never, "a series of hot shooting," from him?
I notice that by the end of three quarters, four Celtics have scored in double digits, but no one else on the team has scored a single d**n point!

What's a "dean point?" Wink

Sometimes, this is what you get when you have a "Big 3" and Small 9.
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« Reply #1244 on: June 16, 2010, 06:40:09 AM »

I usually don't subscribe to the, "team X is getting no calls," philosophy of sports watching.  As popular as maligning referees can be, people don't know better than they do; I usually cannot find even 1 person in 100 who actually knows the wording of the NBA's traveling violation rule, for example.

Well, I'm not emotionally invested in this series. I am for Boston, but I don't care that much. It just seems obvious that they want it to go 7 games. But with the Lakers winning by this much, I don't think officiating can be blamed for Boston losing this one. Great defense by the Lakers tonight.

Considering the storied history of the two franchises, I'm glad it's going 7.
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« Reply #1245 on: June 16, 2010, 01:14:58 PM »

Well, after much bruhaha and shuffling, it appears that changes in the BCS allignments will be small and converging toward the optimum of a dozen schools per conference, but it is a bit confusing:  the Pac 10 now has 11; the MWC lured in Boisie State and kept TCU, the WAC is down to 8, the Big 10 is now the Big 12, and the Big 12 is now the Big 10--ouch, my head hurts!
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« Reply #1246 on: June 16, 2010, 02:30:39 PM »

the Big 10 is now the Big 12, and the Big 12 is now the Big 10--ouch, my head hurts!

It's more like "The Big 10 has 12, and the Big 12 has 10."  I highly doubt that the Big 10 will change its name anytime soon - progress moves quite slowly amongst them (except when it generates revenue).
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« Reply #1247 on: June 18, 2010, 01:53:11 AM »

Congrats to Boston and L.A. for a great series. If only NBA players gave that much effort and heart during the regular season. Great game 7. Pundits will call it an ugly game, but I loved it (except for the final outcome.) Hard-nosed, physical basketball. Survival of the fittest, as it should be. Every basket tonight was earned. For me, that's fun to watch. In my opinion, L.A. should be ashamed for allowing it to go 7 games. They have more talent, more depth, plus the greatest player and coach in the game. To me, the Lakers are soft, and they had serious trouble against a physical team like Boston. Give Doc Rivers and Boston a lot of credit. Heart, effort, physicality, teamwork, and excellent coaching almost prevailed over an abundance of Laker talent. But in the end, Kobe and his crew won another title. So, congrats L.A. You deserve your props. But just know that as great as Kobe is, he will NEVER be Jordan!!!


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« Reply #1248 on: June 18, 2010, 02:52:35 AM »

But just know that as great as Kobe is, he will NEVER be Jordan!!!
What makes you say that?

Of course, if you're talking about the best ever regardless of position and not just the best ever at shooting guard, Michael Jordan takes a back seat to Magic Johnson, IMO.
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« Reply #1249 on: June 18, 2010, 03:32:47 AM »

But just know that as great as Kobe is, he will NEVER be Jordan!!!
What makes you say that?

Of course, if you're talking about the best ever regardless of position and not just the best ever at shooting guard, Michael Jordan takes a back seat to Magic Johnson, IMO.

Jordan stands alone. If I start explaining why, I'll be here all night. But briefly, Michael Jordan excelled at every facet of the game of basketball. Off the top of my head, here's a compilation of things that sets him apart, IMHO:

-raw athleticism
-master of the fundamentals
-knowledge of the game
-defensive expert
-excellent jump shot
-slasher/driving to the basket
-great passer
-tremendous rebounding
-made his teammates better
-unparallelled in competitive nature
-gave 100% effort all the time
-ability to take over a game at any moment
-was always improving some facet of his game
-ability to adjust acording to the circumstances
-physical and mental toughness
-revolutionized the way the game is played
-revolutionized the style and was a trend setter (i.e. the baggy shorts that are now worn by all)
-pure aesthetic beauty in everything he did on the court

Now Magic, Bird, and Kobe may possess many if not most of these attributes, but not to the extent that Jordan did.

As coach Bob Knight said when he coached him as a collegiate olympian, before he was ever in the NBA, "Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player that will ever play the game."


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« Reply #1250 on: June 18, 2010, 04:12:25 AM »

But just know that as great as Kobe is, he will NEVER be Jordan!!!
What makes you say that?

Of course, if you're talking about the best ever regardless of position and not just the best ever at shooting guard, Michael Jordan takes a back seat to Magic Johnson, IMO.

Jordan stands alone. If I start explaining why, I'll be here all night. But briefly, Michael Jordan excelled at every facet of the game of basketball. Off the top of my head, here's a compilation of things that sets him apart, IMHO:

-raw athleticism
What can be more athletic than a man of the following characteristics?
  • The ball handling skills of players a foot shorter than his height of 6'9"
  • The ability to dominate, not just play, at all five positions--remember when Magic started an NBA finals game at center in place of his injured teammate, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and scored 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals?
  • Exceptional court vision for a point guard

-master of the fundamentals
-knowledge of the game
Compare to Magic's unparalleled mastery of the Lakers' "Show Time" offense and knowledge of how to break down opposing defenses.  I'll always remember that play in the closing seconds of Game 6 of the 1991 Western Conference Finals against my Trail Blazers when he hucked a slow pass the length of the court to no one in particular just so he could burn 5 seconds off the clock and force the Blazers to have to move the ball the length of the court in less than a second to score the winning basket.  (The Lakers won that game by one measly point to win the series.)  Talk about knowledge of the game!

-defensive expert
I'll concede Jordan's superiority there.

-excellent jump shot
To match Magic's.

-slasher/driving to the basket
I'll concede Jordan's superiority there.

-great passer
Magic still holds the record for highest career average assists per game.  His ability to find the open man in the Laker fast break was equaled by no one.

-tremendous rebounding
Magic averaged one more rebound per game over his career than Jordan.

-made his teammates better
Debatable.  Before Phil Jackson took over the helm of the Bulls, Jordan had a reputation for being an a-h-e who wouldn't trust his teammates with the ball and was more concerned with his scoring stats than with his team's success.  There has to be a reason why the Bulls lost that playoff game wherein Jordan scored 63 and why it took Scottie Pippen and his point-forward passing skills to make the Bulls a perennial NBA title contender.  Everyone likes to point out that Pippen never won an NBA title without Jordan, as if that somehow proves that Jordan made Pippen a championship player, but what these people overlook is that Jordan never even made the conference finals without Pippen, something Pippen did twice without Jordan (1994 with the Bulls and 2000 with the Blazers).  This is also consistent with Jordan's record at North Carolina.  In his freshman year, he hit the shot that won the NCAA title for the Tar Heels, but it was James Worthy who led the team to the title that year.  Once Worthy moved on to the NBA and left the team to Jordan, the Tar Heels never made it any farther than the Elite Eight, even with Jordan putting up such All-American numbers.

-unparallelled in competitive nature
A trait Magic shared.  The big difference being that Magic was much more affable and much more of a team player.  Jordan had the reputation of being a ruthless SOB, even to his teammates.

-gave 100% effort all the time
-ability to take over a game at any moment
-was always improving some facet of his game
-ability to adjust acording to the circumstances
-physical and mental toughness
All traits that apply equally to Magic.
 
-revolutionized the way the game is played
Like Johnson didn't with his "DID YOU SEE THAT!!?" razzle-dazzle passes?  He made the fast break a thing of beauty.

-revolutionized the style and was a trend setter (i.e. the baggy shorts that are now worn by all)
That makes him an influential player, which is a derivative of his greatness on the court.  But his influence on the game is not, in and of itself, what made him a great player.  How many average players are able to make such fashion statements?

-pure aesthetic beauty in everything he did on the court
Magic did the same and to the same level.

Now Magic, Bird, and Kobe may possess many if not most of these attributes, but not to the extent that Jordan did.
I will agree that Larry Bird and Kobe Bryant don't quite possess these attributes to the extent that Jordan did, but I think you'd have a very difficult time arguing that Magic Johnson didn't.

As coach Bob Knight said when he coached him as a collegiate olympian, before he was ever in the NBA, "Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player that will ever play the game."
Ah, the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority.  I don't agree with Bobby Knight.  Everything Jordan was, Magic was too.  What sets Magic above Jordan in my mind, however, is that Johnson was a more versatile player who knew from the start of his career how to submit his personal goals to the good of the team and do whatever was necessary in any given game for his team to win.  Sadly, that cannot be said of Michael Jordan.
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« Reply #1251 on: June 18, 2010, 02:35:57 PM »

 Everything Jordan was, Magic was too.  What sets Magic above Jordan in my mind, however, is that Johnson was a more versatile player who knew from the start of his career how to submit his personal goals to the good of the team and do whatever was necessary in any given game for his team to win.  Sadly, that cannot be said of Michael Jordan.

Jordan's 6 NBA titles says otherwise.


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« Reply #1252 on: June 18, 2010, 03:09:05 PM »

 Everything Jordan was, Magic was too.  What sets Magic above Jordan in my mind, however, is that Johnson was a more versatile player who knew from the start of his career how to submit his personal goals to the good of the team and do whatever was necessary in any given game for his team to win.  Sadly, that cannot be said of Michael Jordan.

Jordan's 6 NBA titles says otherwise.
Extremely simplistic argument for a number of reasons.
1.  Tommy Heinsohn won 8 NBA titles as a player.  By your logic, wouldn't that make him better than Jordan?  Dennis Rodman won 5 NBA titles, yet you'd have to be insane to argue that that alone makes him better than Magic Johnson.
2.  The 1980's have been deemed the NBA's toughest era ever with the number of good teams that played then.  Magic and his Lakers had to face such teams as the Sixers with Moses Malone and Dr. J, Larry Bird's Celtics, and the "Bad Boy" Detroit Pistons to win their four NBA titles.  Did Jordan's Bulls ever have a consistent arch-nemesis during their run to six?  Did the Bulls ever play a team the caliber of any the Lakers beat to win their titles?
3.  Teams win championships, not individual players.  As little as he and you may actually want to recognize this, Jordan would not have won a single one of his NBA titles without a team of good players to support him and feed off his skills, without Phil Jackson as head coach using his Zen master skills to actually get Jordan on the same page with the rest of the team, and without Tex Winter's triangle offense.  As I mentioned earlier, Scottie Pippen also won 6 NBA titles and did something without Jordan that Jordan never did without Pippen: actually advance to the conference finals.

Having said all this, I'll conclude by telling you that I think you've bought too much into the hype of how Jordan is the greatest of all time.  He's certainly a great player--don't get me wrong--and arguably the greatest ever to play his position, but there's no way in my mind that anyone can rightly call Jordan the greatest player ever.
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« Reply #1253 on: June 18, 2010, 04:38:02 PM »

 Everything Jordan was, Magic was too.  What sets Magic above Jordan in my mind, however, is that Johnson was a more versatile player who knew from the start of his career how to submit his personal goals to the good of the team and do whatever was necessary in any given game for his team to win.  Sadly, that cannot be said of Michael Jordan.

Jordan's 6 NBA titles says otherwise.
Extremely simplistic argument for a number of reasons.
1.  Tommy Heinsohn won 8 NBA titles as a player.  By your logic, wouldn't that make him better than Jordan?  Dennis Rodman won 5 NBA titles, yet you'd have to be insane to argue that that alone makes him better than Magic Johnson.
2.  The 1980's have been deemed the NBA's toughest era ever with the number of good teams that played then.  Magic and his Lakers had to face such teams as the Sixers with Moses Malone and Dr. J, Larry Bird's Celtics, and the "Bad Boy" Detroit Pistons to win their four NBA titles.  Did Jordan's Bulls ever have a consistent arch-nemesis during their run to six?  Did the Bulls ever play a team the caliber of any the Lakers beat to win their titles?
3.  Teams win championships, not individual players.  As little as he and you may actually want to recognize this, Jordan would not have won a single one of his NBA titles without a team of good players to support him and feed off his skills, without Phil Jackson as head coach using his Zen master skills to actually get Jordan on the same page with the rest of the team, and without Tex Winter's triangle offense.  As I mentioned earlier, Scottie Pippen also won 6 NBA titles and did something without Jordan that Jordan never did without Pippen: actually advance to the conference finals.

Having said all this, I'll conclude by telling you that I think you've bought too much into the hype of how Jordan is the greatest of all time.  He's certainly a great player--don't get me wrong--and arguably the greatest ever to play his position, but there's no way in my mind that anyone can rightly call Jordan the greatest player ever.


You are entitled to you opinion.


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« Reply #1254 on: June 18, 2010, 08:06:47 PM »

 Everything Jordan was, Magic was too.  What sets Magic above Jordan in my mind, however, is that Johnson was a more versatile player who knew from the start of his career how to submit his personal goals to the good of the team and do whatever was necessary in any given game for his team to win.  Sadly, that cannot be said of Michael Jordan.

Jordan's 6 NBA titles says otherwise.
Extremely simplistic argument for a number of reasons.
1.  Tommy Heinsohn won 8 NBA titles as a player.  By your logic, wouldn't that make him better than Jordan?  Dennis Rodman won 5 NBA titles, yet you'd have to be insane to argue that that alone makes him better than Magic Johnson.
2.  The 1980's have been deemed the NBA's toughest era ever with the number of good teams that played then.  Magic and his Lakers had to face such teams as the Sixers with Moses Malone and Dr. J, Larry Bird's Celtics, and the "Bad Boy" Detroit Pistons to win their four NBA titles.  Did Jordan's Bulls ever have a consistent arch-nemesis during their run to six?  Did the Bulls ever play a team the caliber of any the Lakers beat to win their titles?
3.  Teams win championships, not individual players.  As little as he and you may actually want to recognize this, Jordan would not have won a single one of his NBA titles without a team of good players to support him and feed off his skills, without Phil Jackson as head coach using his Zen master skills to actually get Jordan on the same page with the rest of the team, and without Tex Winter's triangle offense.  As I mentioned earlier, Scottie Pippen also won 6 NBA titles and did something without Jordan that Jordan never did without Pippen: actually advance to the conference finals.

Having said all this, I'll conclude by telling you that I think you've bought too much into the hype of how Jordan is the greatest of all time.  He's certainly a great player--don't get me wrong--and arguably the greatest ever to play his position, but there's no way in my mind that anyone can rightly call Jordan the greatest player ever.


You are entitled to you opinion.


Selam
So you concede the superiority of my logic? Wink
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« Reply #1255 on: June 19, 2010, 02:48:44 AM »

 Everything Jordan was, Magic was too.  What sets Magic above Jordan in my mind, however, is that Johnson was a more versatile player who knew from the start of his career how to submit his personal goals to the good of the team and do whatever was necessary in any given game for his team to win.  Sadly, that cannot be said of Michael Jordan.

Jordan's 6 NBA titles says otherwise.
Extremely simplistic argument for a number of reasons.
1.  Tommy Heinsohn won 8 NBA titles as a player.  By your logic, wouldn't that make him better than Jordan?  Dennis Rodman won 5 NBA titles, yet you'd have to be insane to argue that that alone makes him better than Magic Johnson.
2.  The 1980's have been deemed the NBA's toughest era ever with the number of good teams that played then.  Magic and his Lakers had to face such teams as the Sixers with Moses Malone and Dr. J, Larry Bird's Celtics, and the "Bad Boy" Detroit Pistons to win their four NBA titles.  Did Jordan's Bulls ever have a consistent arch-nemesis during their run to six?  Did the Bulls ever play a team the caliber of any the Lakers beat to win their titles?
3.  Teams win championships, not individual players.  As little as he and you may actually want to recognize this, Jordan would not have won a single one of his NBA titles without a team of good players to support him and feed off his skills, without Phil Jackson as head coach using his Zen master skills to actually get Jordan on the same page with the rest of the team, and without Tex Winter's triangle offense.  As I mentioned earlier, Scottie Pippen also won 6 NBA titles and did something without Jordan that Jordan never did without Pippen: actually advance to the conference finals.

Having said all this, I'll conclude by telling you that I think you've bought too much into the hype of how Jordan is the greatest of all time.  He's certainly a great player--don't get me wrong--and arguably the greatest ever to play his position, but there's no way in my mind that anyone can rightly call Jordan the greatest player ever.


You are entitled to you opinion.


Selam
So you concede the superiority of my logic? Wink

I'll revisit this tomorrow. Some of what you say is valid, but a lot of it I will refute. Too tired right now. But I would put Magic #2 on my all time list, maybe tied with "the Big O."


Selam
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« Reply #1256 on: June 19, 2010, 05:18:27 AM »

 Everything Jordan was, Magic was too.  What sets Magic above Jordan in my mind, however, is that Johnson was a more versatile player who knew from the start of his career how to submit his personal goals to the good of the team and do whatever was necessary in any given game for his team to win.  Sadly, that cannot be said of Michael Jordan.

Jordan's 6 NBA titles says otherwise.
Extremely simplistic argument for a number of reasons.
1.  Tommy Heinsohn won 8 NBA titles as a player.  By your logic, wouldn't that make him better than Jordan?  Dennis Rodman won 5 NBA titles, yet you'd have to be insane to argue that that alone makes him better than Magic Johnson.
2.  The 1980's have been deemed the NBA's toughest era ever with the number of good teams that played then.  Magic and his Lakers had to face such teams as the Sixers with Moses Malone and Dr. J, Larry Bird's Celtics, and the "Bad Boy" Detroit Pistons to win their four NBA titles.  Did Jordan's Bulls ever have a consistent arch-nemesis during their run to six?  Did the Bulls ever play a team the caliber of any the Lakers beat to win their titles?
3.  Teams win championships, not individual players.  As little as he and you may actually want to recognize this, Jordan would not have won a single one of his NBA titles without a team of good players to support him and feed off his skills, without Phil Jackson as head coach using his Zen master skills to actually get Jordan on the same page with the rest of the team, and without Tex Winter's triangle offense.  As I mentioned earlier, Scottie Pippen also won 6 NBA titles and did something without Jordan that Jordan never did without Pippen: actually advance to the conference finals.

Having said all this, I'll conclude by telling you that I think you've bought too much into the hype of how Jordan is the greatest of all time.  He's certainly a great player--don't get me wrong--and arguably the greatest ever to play his position, but there's no way in my mind that anyone can rightly call Jordan the greatest player ever.


You are entitled to you opinion.


Selam
So you concede the superiority of my logic? Wink

I'll revisit this tomorrow. Some of what you say is valid, but a lot of it I will refute.
I don't think you can, since I've read most of the arguments for ranking Jordan #1 all time.  I just don't agree totally with them.  Jordan was no doubt the greatest scorer of all time, but he was too much of a "me first" player to really fit into any kind of a team concept.

Too tired right now. But I would put Magic #2 on my all time list, maybe tied with "the Big O."
Yeah, I could agree that Oscar Robertson is a worthy rival to Magic as a candidate for "Greatest of All Time".  Average a triple double for one season and almost do that again for another two.
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« Reply #1257 on: June 19, 2010, 06:29:11 PM »

The only NBA player ever to finish his career with more blocked shots than points scored was reported dead today at 47.  Manute Bol...  All 7 feet, 7 inches of him...
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« Reply #1258 on: June 19, 2010, 08:28:42 PM »

Not only was he an amazing defensive player, he was also an incredible humanitarian and philanthropist.  He spent almost all his earnings as an NBA player (and as a celebrity after retirement) on various causes to relieve the suffering of people in his native Sudan. 

There have been few selfless sports figures of his stature.  He will certainly be missed.

Vicnaja pamjat!
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« Reply #1259 on: June 19, 2010, 10:53:04 PM »

Not only was he an amazing defensive player, he was also an incredible humanitarian and philanthropist.  He spent almost all his earnings as an NBA player (and as a celebrity after retirement) on various causes to relieve the suffering of people in his native Sudan. 

There have been few selfless sports figures of his stature.  He will certainly be missed.

Vicnaja pamjat!


That's very sad. What was the cause of death?

I did not know about all of his humanitarian efforts, but he seemed like a kind and gentle soul. I'm glad to know that he did so much good with his time on earth.

"Lord have mercy."

"Memory Eternal!"


Selam
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