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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #1170 on: June 03, 2010, 12:00:07 AM »

Just read this news blurb about Oakland A's pitcher Dallas Braden pitching the 19th perfect game in Major League history:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=300509111&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

First for the A's since Jim "Catfish" Hunter threw one 42 years and one day ago.


Of course, this gem makes the second time in less than a year that the Tampa Bay Rays found themselves on the losing end of a perfect game--Mark Buehrle of the White Sox threw one against the Rays last July.
And not even three weeks later, Phillie pitcher Roy Halladay duplicates Braden's feat with a perfecto of his own.  The first time in the modern era (since 1900) that two perfect games were pitched in the same season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=300529128
Now, as if two in one month isn't enough, Armando Galarraga of the Detroit Tigers had a perfect game with two outs in the 9th inning...

blown by an umpire's terrible call.  First base umpire Jim Joyce ruled the batter safe on a ground ball even though instant replay showed the throw beating him by a whole step.
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« Reply #1171 on: June 03, 2010, 12:28:35 AM »

... and Ken Griffey Jr. calls it quits after 22 years in the big leagues, finishing his career where he started it... in Seattle.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100602&content_id=10725878&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
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« Reply #1172 on: June 03, 2010, 10:20:33 AM »

Just read this news blurb about Oakland A's pitcher Dallas Braden pitching the 19th perfect game in Major League history:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=300509111&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

First for the A's since Jim "Catfish" Hunter threw one 42 years and one day ago.


Of course, this gem makes the second time in less than a year that the Tampa Bay Rays found themselves on the losing end of a perfect game--Mark Buehrle of the White Sox threw one against the Rays last July.
And not even three weeks later, Phillie pitcher Roy Halladay duplicates Braden's feat with a perfecto of his own.  The first time in the modern era (since 1900) that two perfect games were pitched in the same season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=300529128
Now, as if two in one month isn't enough, Armando Galarraga of the Detroit Tigers had a perfect game with two outs in the 9th inning...

blown by an umpire's terrible call.  First base umpire Jim Joyce ruled the batter safe on a ground ball even though instant replay showed the throw beating him by a whole step.
I saw that. The Cardinals broadcast was interrupted last night to show the perfect game, and I saw the bad call. At least Galarraga will know he had the perfect game, even if it's never official.
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« Reply #1173 on: June 03, 2010, 11:53:36 AM »

Now, as if two in one month isn't enough, Armando Galarraga of the Detroit Tigers had a perfect game with two outs in the 9th inning...

blown by an umpire's terrible call.  First base umpire Jim Joyce ruled the batter safe on a ground ball even though instant replay showed the throw beating him by a whole step.

It was an awful call - even the most die-hard Indians fans would be hard-pressed to admit otherwise.  However, unlike some pundits and "armchair baseball fans," I am against additional forays into instant-replay even with this incident in mind.
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« Reply #1174 on: June 03, 2010, 11:54:21 AM »

At least Galarraga will know he had the perfect game, even if it's never official.

And that is certainly more important than the record.  I think he told the reporters that he'll still show his son the video.
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« Reply #1175 on: June 03, 2010, 12:17:35 PM »

Now, as if two in one month isn't enough, Armando Galarraga of the Detroit Tigers had a perfect game with two outs in the 9th inning...

blown by an umpire's terrible call.  First base umpire Jim Joyce ruled the batter safe on a ground ball even though instant replay showed the throw beating him by a whole step.

Oh, I nearly cried after that call. Unbelievable. I will count this one as a perfect game as does Galarraga, the Tigers, and all of the other Tigers fans. I really respect the way that Galarraga handled it though. A true sportsman. He said that nobody is perfect and people make mistakes. Galarraga was happy with what he accomplished and in his heart and in every Tigers fan's heart, it was a perfect game.
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« Reply #1176 on: June 03, 2010, 01:11:23 PM »

First base umpire Jim Joyce ruled the batter safe on a ground ball even though instant replay showed the throw beating him by a whole step.

It's a outrage...

umpires should have daily eye exams before games...
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« Reply #1177 on: June 03, 2010, 03:28:22 PM »

I read that MLB is going to review the blown call.  I honestly hope they overturn it and give the kid his perfect game.

I do appreciate, though, Jim Joyce's immediate contrition and profuse apologies after he realized what he had done.  As with Don Denkinger, I still see Mr. Joyce as an otherwise excellent umpire who will be forever dogged by memories of that one moment when he blew it big time.


EDIT:  I see that Bud Selig has decided not to overturn the call.  To me, Selig just blew it more than Joyce ever did.
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« Reply #1178 on: June 03, 2010, 07:50:13 PM »

Selig could be concerned that 3 perfect games in the first third of the season reflected on the dilution of talent in MLB.

He could have overturned the call and started a precedent or he could force the O's and Astros to use aluminum bats to generate offense or even order all MLB teams to move the fences in 50 feet to increase home runs.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #1179 on: June 03, 2010, 11:30:23 PM »

Selig could be concerned that 3 perfect games in the first third of the season reflected on the dilution of talent in MLB.
You need a lot of evidence to prove this opinionated opinion that the three perfect games in one month are the result of offensive talent having been diluted in the Major Leagues. Roll Eyes  Those three games were against only three teams, one of whom happens to have the best record in baseball right now.  Give the pitchers some credit.

He could have overturned the call and started a precedent or he could force the O's and Astros to use aluminum bats to generate offense or even order all MLB teams to move the fences in 50 feet to increase home runs.   Roll Eyes
Usually, it takes a whole season and a lot more than just three perfect games against only three different teams to determine that big league offenses have diminished.  A decade ago, when Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Ken Griffey Jr., and Barry Bonds were putting up such gaudy numbers, we were saying that talent dilution had given us weaker pitching.  What gives? Huh
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« Reply #1180 on: June 03, 2010, 11:42:26 PM »

Downtown Toronto is going to be interesting from the 26th to the 27th.  Drunk World Cup fans (beginning of the Round of 16) and violent anarchists (G20) all in the Core.  laugh 

~1 week until it all starts in Johannesburg!
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« Reply #1181 on: June 04, 2010, 12:24:01 AM »

Selig could be concerned that 3 perfect games in the first third of the season reflected on the dilution of talent in MLB.
You need a lot of evidence to prove this opinionated opinion that the three perfect games in one month are the result of offensive talent having been diluted in the Major Leagues. Roll Eyes  Those three games were against only three teams, one of whom happens to have the best record in baseball right now.  Give the pitchers some credit.

Fact: MLB had 18 perfect games in its first 100+ years of existence only to almost have 4 perfect games in a 10 month span.
Opinion: MLB endured criticism for how hitters used steroids and other performance enhancing substances to inflate stats.

He could have overturned the call and started a precedent or he could force the O's and Astros to use aluminum bats to generate offense or even order all MLB teams to move the fences in 50 feet to increase home runs.   Roll Eyes
Usually, it takes a whole season and a lot more than just three perfect games against only three different teams to determine that big league offenses have diminished.  A decade ago, when Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Ken Griffey Jr., and Barry Bonds were putting up such gaudy numbers, we were saying that talent dilution had given us weaker pitching.  What gives? Huh

That was before the performance enhancing drugs scandal.  Talent dilution among hitters and pitchers is a fact.  The Yankees are nearing $1 Billion in payroll by signing the best of this "diluted talent pool" to long-term contracts and no one else can compete.
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« Reply #1182 on: June 04, 2010, 01:35:45 AM »

Selig could be concerned that 3 perfect games in the first third of the season reflected on the dilution of talent in MLB.
You need a lot of evidence to prove this opinionated opinion that the three perfect games in one month are the result of offensive talent having been diluted in the Major Leagues. Roll Eyes  Those three games were against only three teams, one of whom happens to have the best record in baseball right now.  Give the pitchers some credit.

Fact: MLB had 18 perfect games in its first 100+ years of existence only to almost have 4 perfect games in a 10 month span.
You do note that two of those perfect games were against the Tampa Bay Rays?

Opinion: MLB endured criticism for how hitters used steroids and other performance enhancing substances to inflate stats.
How is that relevant to your claim?

He could have overturned the call and started a precedent or he could force the O's and Astros to use aluminum bats to generate offense or even order all MLB teams to move the fences in 50 feet to increase home runs.   Roll Eyes
Usually, it takes a whole season and a lot more than just three perfect games against only three different teams to determine that big league offenses have diminished.  A decade ago, when Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Ken Griffey Jr., and Barry Bonds were putting up such gaudy numbers, we were saying that talent dilution had given us weaker pitching.  What gives? Huh

That was before the performance enhancing drugs scandal.  Talent dilution among hitters and pitchers is a fact.
Prove it.

The Yankees are nearing $1 Billion in payroll by signing the best of this "diluted talent pool" to long-term contracts and no one else can compete.
And what do the Yankees have to do with this conversation except that you like to bash them whenever you can?  Please stay on topic. Wink
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« Reply #1183 on: June 04, 2010, 01:59:14 AM »

Lakers 1, Celtics 0
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« Reply #1184 on: June 04, 2010, 02:09:44 AM »

Selig could be concerned that 3 perfect games in the first third of the season reflected on the dilution of talent in MLB.

I wouldn't say that there is diluted talent. I would say we are shifting from the roid era in baseball and turning to a more pitcher dominated baseball. Pitchers are getting better because they don't have to deal with a bunch of juiced up batters.
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« Reply #1185 on: June 04, 2010, 02:57:14 AM »

I notice that John Wooden, the legendary basketball coach at UCLA, is in the hospital and thought to be very close to death.  He's 99, so who can blame him?  May his departure from this life be peaceful.
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« Reply #1186 on: June 04, 2010, 03:23:57 AM »

I notice that John Wooden, the legendary basketball coach at UCLA, is in the hospital and thought to be very close to death.  He's 99, so who can blame him?  May his departure from this life be peaceful.

I'm sorry to hear this. One of the top three greatest coaches of all time- in any sport!

"Lord have mercy."



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« Reply #1187 on: June 04, 2010, 10:44:59 AM »

Fact: MLB had 18 perfect games in its first 100+ years of existence only to almost have 4 perfect games in a 10 month span.
You do note that two of those perfect games were against the Tampa Bay Rays?

They went to the World Series a few years ago.

Opinion: MLB endured criticism for how hitters used steroids and other performance enhancing substances to inflate stats.
How is that relevant to your claim?

Performance enhancing substances used to mask talent dilution due to expansion.

That was before the performance enhancing drugs scandal.  Talent dilution among hitters and pitchers is a fact.
Prove it.

The source is one New York Times' writer's claim that the expansion of MLB resulted in a dilution of talent.

Quote
To many baseball fans the game has been ruined — hallowed records toppled, managers playing less small ball as they wait for that three-run homer. But the blame shouldn’t be placed on pills, needles and balms. The true culprit is expansion.

The Yankees are nearing $1 Billion in payroll by signing the best of this "diluted talent pool" to long-term contracts and no one else can compete.
And what do the Yankees have to do with this conversation except that you like to bash them whenever you can?  Please stay on topic. Wink

The Yankees have monopolized the best talent in a diluted market.  Free agents only want to play for 5 or 6 teams.

In the 1980's, the Yankees were the ones who stunk and the small market teams like the Twins, Royals, Orioles, Tigers and Brewers were experiencing success.
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« Reply #1188 on: June 04, 2010, 02:28:51 PM »

I notice that John Wooden, the legendary basketball coach at UCLA, is in the hospital and thought to be very close to death.  He's 99, so who can blame him?  May his departure from this life be peaceful.

I'm sorry to hear this. One of the top three greatest coaches of all time- in any sport!

And also one of the classiest men in sports history!
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« Reply #1189 on: June 04, 2010, 03:25:23 PM »

Fact: MLB had 18 perfect games in its first 100+ years of existence only to almost have 4 perfect games in a 10 month span.
You do note that two of those perfect games were against the Tampa Bay Rays?

They went to the World Series a few years ago.
And they have the best record in baseball right now.  So what's your point?

Opinion: MLB endured criticism for how hitters used steroids and other performance enhancing substances to inflate stats.
How is that relevant to your claim?

Performance enhancing substances used to mask talent dilution due to expansion.

That was before the performance enhancing drugs scandal.  Talent dilution among hitters and pitchers is a fact.
Prove it.

The source is one New York Times' writer's claim that the expansion of MLB resulted in a dilution of talent.

Quote
To many baseball fans the game has been ruined — hallowed records toppled, managers playing less small ball as they wait for that three-run homer. But the blame shouldn’t be placed on pills, needles and balms. The true culprit is expansion.
You do know the difference between fact and opinion?  I too have long suspected that expansion resulted in dilution of the talent pool--it only makes sense.  But what evidence do we have outside of the opinions of a few pundits that this is real and not just a figment of our imaginations?

The Yankees are nearing $1 Billion in payroll by signing the best of this "diluted talent pool" to long-term contracts and no one else can compete.
And what do the Yankees have to do with this conversation except that you like to bash them whenever you can?  Please stay on topic. Wink

The Yankees have monopolized the best talent in a diluted market.  Free agents only want to play for 5 or 6 teams.

In the 1980's, the Yankees were the ones who stunk and the small market teams like the Twins, Royals, Orioles, Tigers and Brewers were experiencing success.
But your rant about the Yankees is still a red herring.  (Besides, the Yankees still had a record of 854-708 through the 1980's.  That's an average of 89 wins per every 162 games.  They didn't qualify for the playoffs in any of those years after 1981, but they certainly didn't stink.  MLB also didn't have the wildcard berth in the playoffs, either.  If they had, I think the Yankees may have actually made the playoffs a few times back then.)

IOW, I see that you're just spouting whatever comes to your mind right now, without any regard for logical structure or flow.  I don't think further questioning from me is going to change that.  If anything, it will only encourage you to dig yourself even deeper into the pit of irrational thinking you've already dug for yourself.
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« Reply #1190 on: June 04, 2010, 04:36:45 PM »

This just in:  http://texas.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1090747

As I've said before, any expansion of the Pac Ten is going to compare to an expansion of the Big Ten as a 7.0 earthquake would compare to a Force 5 tornado:  both damaging, but the quake would be more so and over a wider area.
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« Reply #1191 on: June 04, 2010, 06:07:03 PM »


One week until the 19th FIFA World Cup!!  Grin

Any takers on the winners?  Will Italy retain the trophy?  I will be supporting Serbia, but think that Spain will win it this year
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« Reply #1192 on: June 04, 2010, 07:58:33 PM »

I hardly think we're heading towards another 'dead ball era' in baseball. More likely a natural correction towards the proper balance between hitting and pitching. Has anyone thought that the problem is not a loss of talent in hitting but rather a return of talent in pitching after being absent for nearly 20 years?

Perfect games are not very good indicators, the first two were pitched within 5 days of each other in 1880, another wasn't seen until nearly a quarter of a century later in 1904. There wondrous accomplishments, they represent the very pinnacle of the sport, but the difference between a perfect game and a 1 error no-hitter, or even a 1 hit shutout, isn't really a difference in talent, it's just that the defense in a perfect game had a little more of a psychological edge or, most probably, a little more luck. To make broad speculation based on the number of perfect games doesn't seem very prudent.

The last 20 years have been a batters game, almost more like cricket than baseball, you can try to blame this on steroids, but the pitchers were also taking them and the pitchers would stand to benefit much more than hitters (with the exception of the number of home runs stat), the extra speed a pitcher can get from more strength would help more than the strength of a batter, whose primary skills are perception, reflexes, and muscle control (Provigil will do a lot more for a batter than steroids ever could). The more likely explanation for high slugging percentages/OBP's/average runs per game/etc. during the 1990's and 2000's is simply bad pitching (and possibly changes to the ball, but that's another discussion). That also explains the relative lack of parity, as the most wealthy teams could buy the few above average and good pitchers available (not that I'd support a salary cap, only a few things in this world are more pleasurable than watching the humiliating defeat of the Yankees to a team with 1/8th their payroll...and it seems to happen so often Wink).

But to say that the hitters were better over the last 20 years than during other eras of baseball seems to be a bit of a stretch, it's like saying that players were faster during the first two decades of the 20th century because of the relative lack of triples in recent years. I'd be shocked if I lived to see someone break Chief Wilson's record of 36 in a season and no one who's played into the 30's or since has ever surpassed 200 career triples. But it's not that people are slower or worse hitters today, it's simply that the nature of the game has changed for a plethora of reasons. It's always a stretch to compare current players to past players, and simply absurd to compare on basic statistics. People can ultimately only be compared to the other players of their time.

As for home runs, there's only one record that I can think of that truly stands out and surpasses all others, in 1927 Babe Ruth hit more Home Runs than any other team in the American League. I'm still waiting or anyone to even come close to that. Wink
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« Reply #1193 on: June 04, 2010, 08:05:18 PM »

Perfect games are not very good indicators, the first two were pitched within 5 days of each other in 1880
Even then, there were some key differences in how the game was played as compared to now.  In 1880 the batter was ruled out if an outfielder caught his fly ball on the first bounce.

I understand what you're saying, though, since you're saying much the same thing I said earlier, except in greater detail. Wink
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« Reply #1194 on: June 04, 2010, 09:28:08 PM »

Perfect games are not very good indicators, the first two were pitched within 5 days of each other in 1880
Even then, there were some key differences in how the game was played as compared to now.  In 1880 the batter was ruled out if an outfielder caught his fly ball on the first bounce.

Wasn't that disallowed during the 1860's? Though I believe you could still get an out by catching a foul ball on the bounce until the 1880's. But, I get the point, it was a very different game. It was a very different game than before the spitball was banned and an excessive number of balls began to be used in 1920. Heck, it's a different game than it was before the top of the strike zone was lowered in 1988.

Quote
I understand what you're saying, though, since you're saying much the same thing I said earlier, except in greater detail. Wink

I have a tendency to do that. Wink
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« Reply #1195 on: June 04, 2010, 09:41:54 PM »


One week until the 19th FIFA World Cup!!  Grin

Any takers on the winners?  Will Italy retain the trophy?  I will be supporting Serbia, but think that Spain will win it this year

My bet is still on England. COME ON ENGLAND!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQu8tk8V0LE
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« Reply #1196 on: June 04, 2010, 10:49:54 PM »

And they have the best record in baseball right now.  So what's your point?

MLB started off with 2 perfect games within 5 days, followed by 15 perfect games within 100+ years and then 3 (and nearly a 4th) in 10 months.

I find that pattern highly questionable, in spite of the logical analysis presented by GiC.

You do know the difference between fact and opinion?  I too have long suspected that expansion resulted in dilution of the talent pool--it only makes sense.  But what evidence do we have outside of the opinions of a few pundits that this is real and not just a figment of our imaginations?

I am aware of the difference between fact and opinion.  I also know what is preponderance of the evidence and the evidence points out that expansion diluted the talent pool AND as a indirect consequence, some resorted to taking steroids to boost physical strength or endurance to hit more home runs or throw harder over shorter periods of time (and receive costlier contract extensions negotiated by superagents like Scott Boras, et al.).

There were 76 complete games in the entire MLB in 2009.  In the 1970's, 20+ complete games per yer per pitcher were common.

But your rant about the Yankees is still a red herring.  (Besides, the Yankees still had a record of 854-708 through the 1980's.  That's an average of 89 wins per every 162 games.  They didn't qualify for the playoffs in any of those years after 1981, but they certainly didn't stink.  MLB also didn't have the wildcard berth in the playoffs, either.  If they had, I think the Yankees may have actually made the playoffs a few times back then.)

IOW, I see that you're just spouting whatever comes to your mind right now, without any regard for logical structure or flow.  I don't think further questioning from me is going to change that.  If anything, it will only encourage you to dig yourself even deeper into the pit of irrational thinking you've already dug for yourself.

There is room for irrational thinkers in God's Kingdom, no?   Smiley
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« Reply #1197 on: June 04, 2010, 11:16:23 PM »

"Material possessions, winning scores, and great reputations are meaningless in the eyes of the Lord, because He knows what we really are and that is all that matters." - UCLA Coach John Wooden

Memory eternal...

I greeted Coach Wooden many a morning at a donut place near his residence in Encino...
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« Reply #1198 on: June 04, 2010, 11:56:41 PM »


One week until the 19th FIFA World Cup!!  Grin

Any takers on the winners?  Will Italy retain the trophy?  I will be supporting Serbia, but think that Spain will win it this year

My bet is still on England. COME ON ENGLAND!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQu8tk8V0LE


I hope an African team wins. Let's hope the African teams finally get a fair shake in their own continent.

I loved watching France lose to China today. That was awesome! Grin


Selam
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« Reply #1199 on: June 05, 2010, 12:17:01 AM »

I notice that John Wooden, the legendary basketball coach at UCLA, is in the hospital and thought to be very close to death.  He's 99, so who can blame him?  May his departure from this life be peaceful.

John Wooden passed away earlier today. +Memory eternal!

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=ys-woodenobit060410
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« Reply #1200 on: June 05, 2010, 12:30:00 AM »

I notice that John Wooden, the legendary basketball coach at UCLA, is in the hospital and thought to be very close to death.  He's 99, so who can blame him?  May his departure from this life be peaceful.

John Wooden passed away earlier today. +Memory eternal!

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=ys-woodenobit060410

The Loss of a Legend! The "Wizard of Westwood."

Memory Eternal!


Selam
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« Reply #1201 on: June 05, 2010, 01:07:32 AM »


One week until the 19th FIFA World Cup!!  Grin

Any takers on the winners?  Will Italy retain the trophy?  I will be supporting Serbia, but think that Spain will win it this year

My bet is still on England. COME ON ENGLAND!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQu8tk8V0LE


I hope an African team wins. Let's hope the African teams finally get a fair shake in their own continent.

I loved watching France lose to China today. That was awesome! Grin


Selam

My prediction is that the African teams won't do very well.
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« Reply #1202 on: June 05, 2010, 01:22:30 AM »

And they have the best record in baseball right now.  So what's your point?

MLB started off with 2 perfect games within 5 days, followed by 15 perfect games within 100+ years and then 3 (and nearly a 4th) in 10 months.

I find that pattern highly questionable, in spite of the logical analysis presented by GiC.

So what do you believe this pattern implies? And why do you believe a perfect game is a good predictor of anything...heck, history demonstrates that you can't even predict a the quality of a pitcher's based on a perfect game. So what do you think you can predict.

Quote
You do know the difference between fact and opinion?  I too have long suspected that expansion resulted in dilution of the talent pool--it only makes sense.  But what evidence do we have outside of the opinions of a few pundits that this is real and not just a figment of our imaginations?

I am aware of the difference between fact and opinion.  I also know what is preponderance of the evidence and the evidence points out that expansion diluted the talent pool AND as a indirect consequence, some resorted to taking steroids to boost physical strength or endurance to hit more home runs or throw harder over shorter periods of time (and receive costlier contract extensions negotiated by superagents like Scott Boras, et al.).

And they're still taking performance enhancing drugs at the same levels, it'd be foolish to think otherwise. Dynepo, hGH, and synthetic HCG are undetectable by any known test today, test base (testosterone without an ester) is detectable but only for 12-18 hours after IM injection, far less if IV injection is used. Considering the money at stake, they'd be crazy not to use these drugs, regardless of the bad press they've gotten in recent years.
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« Reply #1203 on: June 05, 2010, 01:52:09 AM »

And they have the best record in baseball right now.  So what's your point?

MLB started off with 2 perfect games within 5 days, followed by 15 perfect games within 100+ years and then 3 (and nearly a 4th) in 10 months.

I find that pattern highly questionable, in spite of the logical analysis presented by GiC.

So what do you believe this pattern implies? And why do you believe a perfect game is a good predictor of anything...heck, history demonstrates that you can't even predict a the quality of a pitcher's based on a perfect game. So what do you think you can predict.

So we accept everything, that we have no control over like the decisions made by Bud Selig, at face value without ever questioning anything.  This is the Sports Thread for crying out loud.   Roll Eyes

And they're still taking performance enhancing drugs at the same levels, it'd be foolish to think otherwise. Dynepo, hGH, and synthetic HCG are undetectable by any known test today, test base (testosterone without an ester) is detectable but only for 12-18 hours after IM injection, far less if IV injection is used. Considering the money at stake, they'd be crazy not to use these drugs, regardless of the bad press they've gotten in recent years.

Does it matter what professional athletes do?  If one doesn't like it, one is not forced to watch it.   Smiley
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« Reply #1204 on: June 05, 2010, 03:04:23 AM »

And they have the best record in baseball right now.  So what's your point?

MLB started off with 2 perfect games within 5 days, followed by 15 perfect games within 100+ years and then 3 (and nearly a 4th) in 10 months.

I find that pattern highly questionable, in spite of the logical analysis presented by GiC.

So what do you believe this pattern implies? And why do you believe a perfect game is a good predictor of anything...heck, history demonstrates that you can't even predict a the quality of a pitcher's based on a perfect game. So what do you think you can predict.

So we accept everything, that we have no control over like the decisions made by Bud Selig, at face value without ever questioning anything.  This is the Sports Thread for crying out loud.   Roll Eyes
Why the defensive response?  No one's telling you to not ask questions, even if your questions do strike others as full of logical fallacies.  GiC was merely questioning your logic and how it can be used to predict anything.

And they're still taking performance enhancing drugs at the same levels, it'd be foolish to think otherwise. Dynepo, hGH, and synthetic HCG are undetectable by any known test today, test base (testosterone without an ester) is detectable but only for 12-18 hours after IM injection, far less if IV injection is used. Considering the money at stake, they'd be crazy not to use these drugs, regardless of the bad press they've gotten in recent years.

Does it matter what professional athletes do?  If one doesn't like it, one is not forced to watch it.   Smiley
You seem to think it matters, since you're the one who originally brought this up for the effect you saw on baseball statistics.
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« Reply #1205 on: June 05, 2010, 03:22:11 AM »

And they have the best record in baseball right now.  So what's your point?

MLB started off with 2 perfect games within 5 days, followed by 15 perfect games within 100+ years and then 3 (and nearly a 4th) in 10 months.

I find that pattern highly questionable, in spite of the logical analysis presented by GiC.
Pattern?  You know how hard it is to throw a perfect game?

You do know the difference between fact and opinion?  I too have long suspected that expansion resulted in dilution of the talent pool--it only makes sense.  But what evidence do we have outside of the opinions of a few pundits that this is real and not just a figment of our imaginations?

I am aware of the difference between fact and opinion.  I also know what is preponderance of the evidence and the evidence points out that expansion diluted the talent pool AND as a indirect consequence, some resorted to taking steroids to boost physical strength or endurance to hit more home runs or throw harder over shorter periods of time (and receive costlier contract extensions negotiated by superagents like Scott Boras, et al.).
You do realize that this is nothing but conjecture on your part?  I still don't see how this thing you call the preponderance of the evidence points out that expansion diluted the talent pool.  What evidence are you looking at?  Your speculation that this so-called dilution of talent motivated some to use steroids is just that:  speculation into motives--the logical connection is tenuous at best.  And your parenthetical about contract extensions and Scott Boras... how is that supposed to contribute anything of substance to your arguments?  Seems like another red herring to me.

There were 76 complete games in the entire MLB in 2009.  In the 1970's, 20+ complete games per yer per pitcher were common.
A trend I've researched a bit.  This is because the strategy of using relief pitchers and the specialization of bullpen roles have developed so much since about 1960--now we see relief pitchers whose role is to hold a lead in the 7th inning, relievers whose role is to hold a lead in the 8th, closers whose role is to finish the game with a small lead, lefties who pitch only to lefties, righties who pitch only to righties, etc, etc.  Managers have also become much more concerned about pitch counts in an effort to keep their pitchers healthy and effective for much longer; gone are the days when a pitcher might be called on to throw 150-200 pitches (Tom Cheney of the Washington Senators once threw 228 in a 16-inning complete game against the Orioles in 1962) or pitch all of a 26-inning game (the Brooklyn Dodgers' Leon Cadore vs. the Boston Braves' Joe Oeschger on 05-01-1920) or start both games of a double header (something Joe McGinnity did three times in August of 1903 alone--he completed and won all those games).  If today's starting pitchers have not the endurance of a Walter Johnson or a Cy Young or a Catfish Hunter, this is largely the result of changing pitching strategy, not the cause of it.

But your rant about the Yankees is still a red herring.  (Besides, the Yankees still had a record of 854-708 through the 1980's.  That's an average of 89 wins per every 162 games.  They didn't qualify for the playoffs in any of those years after 1981, but they certainly didn't stink.  MLB also didn't have the wildcard berth in the playoffs, either.  If they had, I think the Yankees may have actually made the playoffs a few times back then.)

IOW, I see that you're just spouting whatever comes to your mind right now, without any regard for logical structure or flow.  I don't think further questioning from me is going to change that.  If anything, it will only encourage you to dig yourself even deeper into the pit of irrational thinking you've already dug for yourself.

There is room for irrational thinkers in God's Kingdom, no?   Smiley
But if you're going to try to convince anyone of anything, you might try studying just enough rhetoric and logic to at least make your reasoning coherent. Wink
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« Reply #1206 on: June 05, 2010, 12:50:23 PM »

And they're still taking performance enhancing drugs at the same levels, it'd be foolish to think otherwise. Dynepo, hGH, and synthetic HCG are undetectable by any known test today, test base (testosterone without an ester) is detectable but only for 12-18 hours after IM injection, far less if IV injection is used. Considering the money at stake, they'd be crazy not to use these drugs, regardless of the bad press they've gotten in recent years.

Does it matter what professional athletes do?  If one doesn't like it, one is not forced to watch it.   Smiley
You seem to think it matters, since you're the one who originally brought this up for the effect you saw on baseball statistics.

I was equally suspicious when McGuire started cranking out Home Runs 4 years after the World Series was canceled due to the baseball strike.

I can say that I'm also suspicious about the college player challenging Dimaggio's consecutive hitting streak, with an aluminum bat....   Shocked

The "so-called" purists of baseball may not like it; however, why can college players use aluminum bats for 4 years only to be forced into using wooden bats in the MLB system?  If MLB players are already taking undetectable performance enhancing substances, why not allow them to use aluminum bats?
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« Reply #1207 on: June 05, 2010, 01:03:12 PM »

And they have the best record in baseball right now.  So what's your point?

MLB started off with 2 perfect games within 5 days, followed by 15 perfect games within 100+ years and then 3 (and nearly a 4th) in 10 months.

I find that pattern highly questionable, in spite of the logical analysis presented by GiC.
Pattern?  You know how hard it is to throw a perfect game?

Three (and almost a 4th) pitchers have made it look quite easy in the last 10 months.   laugh

You do realize that this is nothing but conjecture on your part?  I still don't see how this thing you call the preponderance of the evidence points out that expansion diluted the talent pool.  What evidence are you looking at?  Your speculation that this so-called dilution of talent motivated some to use steroids is just that:  speculation into motives--the logical connection is tenuous at best.  And your parenthetical about contract extensions and Scott Boras... how is that supposed to contribute anything of substance to your arguments?  Seems like another red herring to me.

So I'll change my title to OC.Net Resident red herring expert.   Roll Eyes

A trend I've researched a bit.  This is because the strategy of using relief pitchers and the specialization of bullpen roles have developed so much since about 1960--now we see relief pitchers whose role is to hold a lead in the 7th inning, relievers whose role is to hold a lead in the 8th, closers whose role is to finish the game with a small lead, lefties who pitch only to lefties, righties who pitch only to righties, etc, etc.  Managers have also become much more concerned about pitch counts in an effort to keep their pitchers healthy and effective for much longer; gone are the days when a pitcher might be called on to throw 150-200 pitches ....  If today's starting pitchers have not the endurance of a Walter Johnson or a Cy Young or a Catfish Hunter, this is largely the result of changing pitching strategy, not the cause of it.

Now starting pitchers do not last 5-6 innings once they reach pitch counts of 90-100 pitches (Brian Matusz of the O's is a perfect example, among others).  Such programming begins in ... Little League, IDK.   Huh

But if you're going to try to convince anyone of anything, you might try studying just enough rhetoric and logic to at least make your reasoning coherent. Wink

So, anything I say is considered a red herring and other posters assert that I'm belting out random predictions.   Wink
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« Reply #1208 on: June 05, 2010, 02:50:44 PM »

I was equally suspicious when McGuire started cranking out Home Runs 4 years after the World Series was canceled due to the baseball strike.

I can say that I'm also suspicious about the college player challenging Dimaggio's consecutive hitting streak, with an aluminum bat....   Shocked
Not even the same league, dude.  Joe Dimaggio hit safely in 56 straight games in the Major Leagues.  If some college player puts together an 80-game hitting streak in college, what does it matter?  Since it's college ball, it means nothing, NOTHING to Joe Dimaggio's legacy.  Not even comparable...
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« Reply #1209 on: June 05, 2010, 02:54:00 PM »

So, anything I say is considered a red herring and other posters assert that I'm belting out random predictions.   Wink
Nah.  You just use a lot of red herrings.  Keep 'em coming, though.  I love herring, as long as it's not pickled, and your logic saves me from having to go to the store to fish for more. laugh
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« Reply #1210 on: June 05, 2010, 05:21:17 PM »

And they're still taking performance enhancing drugs at the same levels, it'd be foolish to think otherwise. Dynepo, hGH, and synthetic HCG are undetectable by any known test today, test base (testosterone without an ester) is detectable but only for 12-18 hours after IM injection, far less if IV injection is used. Considering the money at stake, they'd be crazy not to use these drugs, regardless of the bad press they've gotten in recent years.

Does it matter what professional athletes do?  If one doesn't like it, one is not forced to watch it.   Smiley
You seem to think it matters, since you're the one who originally brought this up for the effect you saw on baseball statistics.

I was equally suspicious when McGuire started cranking out Home Runs 4 years after the World Series was canceled due to the baseball strike.

I can say that I'm also suspicious about the college player challenging Dimaggio's consecutive hitting streak, with an aluminum bat....   Shocked

I would suggest that the horrendous quality to pitching in college would have more to do with the ease of getting hits than aluminum bats, though the bats certainly help.

Quote
The "so-called" purists of baseball may not like it; however, why can college players use aluminum bats for 4 years only to be forced into using wooden bats in the MLB system?  If MLB players are already taking undetectable performance enhancing substances, why not allow them to use aluminum bats?

PED's enhance the play of both the offense and defense, aluminum bats would give an unchecked advantage to the batter. Now, if you introduced aluminum bats and to offset that advantage moved the fences back 50-100 feet and raised the the top of the strike zone back up to the top of the shoulders like it was at the beginning of the modern era, that might be reasonable...if a bit more dangerous for the pitcher, but pitchers are protected too much anyway.
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« Reply #1211 on: June 05, 2010, 09:06:33 PM »

The "so-called" purists of baseball may not like it; however, why can college players use aluminum bats for 4 years only to be forced into using wooden bats in the MLB system?  If MLB players are already taking undetectable performance enhancing substances, why not allow them to use aluminum bats?
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« Reply #1212 on: June 05, 2010, 10:32:00 PM »

I was equally suspicious when McGuire started cranking out Home Runs 4 years after the World Series was canceled due to the baseball strike.

I can say that I'm also suspicious about the college player challenging Dimaggio's consecutive hitting streak, with an aluminum bat....   Shocked
Not even the same league, dude.  Joe Dimaggio hit safely in 56 straight games in the Major Leagues.  If some college player puts together an 80-game hitting streak in college, what does it matter?  Since it's college ball, it means nothing, NOTHING to Joe Dimaggio's legacy.  Not even comparable...

If a hitting streak in college is of no significance, ESPN wouldn't show every game featuring this player.  For ESPN to make a big deal out of it means something to their bottom line, not to the game of baseball on any level.
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« Reply #1213 on: June 05, 2010, 10:38:12 PM »

So, anything I say is considered a red herring and other posters assert that I'm belting out random predictions.   Wink
Nah.  You just use a lot of red herrings.  Keep 'em coming, though.  I love herring, as long as it's not pickled, and your logic saves me from having to go to the store to fish for more. laugh

OK, so I use a lot of tangents which deviate away from a central thesis (aka, red herrings).  Sorry, I'll exercise more discretion in making statements.   angel
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« Reply #1214 on: June 06, 2010, 01:32:34 AM »

I was equally suspicious when McGuire started cranking out Home Runs 4 years after the World Series was canceled due to the baseball strike.

I can say that I'm also suspicious about the college player challenging Dimaggio's consecutive hitting streak, with an aluminum bat....   Shocked
Not even the same league, dude.  Joe Dimaggio hit safely in 56 straight games in the Major Leagues.  If some college player puts together an 80-game hitting streak in college, what does it matter?  Since it's college ball, it means nothing, NOTHING to Joe Dimaggio's legacy.  Not even comparable...

If a hitting streak in college is of no significance, ESPN wouldn't show every game featuring this player.  For ESPN to make a big deal out of it means something to their bottom line, not to the game of baseball on any level.
Note that I didn't say that a hitting streak in college is of no significance.  It is indeed of great significance, but it needs to be seen in relation to its context, its level of play.  An 80-game hitting streak in college ball is a very big deal that should be covered by ESPN, but there's no way you can compare it to a 56-game hitting streak in the major leagues.  We're talking two totally different levels of play here.
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