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Author Topic: Catholic Recognition of Orthodox Saints post-schism  (Read 5220 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bl. Leonid Feodorov
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« on: January 17, 2007, 05:31:55 PM »

I have read that in 1940 Pope Pius XII of blessed memory issued a calender for Russian Catholic usage which included about 20 post-'schism' saints canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church (and by 'post-schism' I mean post-1054, though the exact date of any definitive schism is debatable).  I know that St. Sergey Radonezhsky was among them, but what others there were I do not know. 

I have been unable to locate this calendar.  Does anyone have information on this?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 05:32:26 PM by Bl. Leonid Feodorov » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2007, 05:55:51 PM »

Considering that this is an Orthodox message board (depsite M777's claims), you probably won't get much help to this question.
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2007, 06:17:36 PM »

He also included St. Alexander Nevsky, but those are the only two right off my head.
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2007, 06:31:18 PM »

Considering that this is an Orthodox message board (depsite M777's claims), you probably won't get much help to this question.

I have been surprised by the number of Catholics I has seen to comment on this forum.  I thought I would try my luck.

He also included St. Alexander Nevsky, but those are the only two right off my head.

Thanks. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 06:35:54 PM by Bl. Leonid Feodorov » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 10:47:21 AM »

I recall reading that all of the saints from the Russian calendar were accepted except ones that were deemed "Anti Roman".  One I believe who was not included was St. Athanasius of Brest.  I would assume St. Mark Eugenikos and St. Job of Pochaev probably didn't make the cut either.
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Bl. Leonid Feodorov
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 10:11:36 PM »

I brought this up on the Byzantine forum & Dr. Alexander Roman replied saying something to the same effect.  He mentioned a Russian Catholic priest he knew who simply used the Russian Orthodox calender with very little modification.  But I do not know the extent of Vatican approval for such practice.  Greek Catholics in Austria were forced in the 19th century to remove the feasts of a number of Orthodox saints & wonderworking ikons from their calendars, and consequently complied. 

I have been looking for as much concrete documentation on official Vatican policy on this subject as I can, and have so far found next to nothing.  I'm hoping soon to read Fr. Cyril Korolevsky's biography of Ven. Andrei Metr. Sheptystsky which includes an essay on Uniatism, and, I am told, addresses some of these concerns.  (It was Fr. Serge Keleher, on the same forum, and who is the translator of the aforementioned work, said that both Metr. Sheptytsky & Bl. Leonid Feodorov encouraged the cults of local Orthodox saints in any Orthodox parishes that joined the Union.)
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 01:39:10 AM »

Greek Catholics in Austria were forced in the 19th century to remove the feasts of a number of Orthodox saints & wonderworking ikons from their calendars, and consequently complied.

This seemed to be common in the former Austro-Hungarian Empire.

"The remaining local expressions of the cult of St Athanasius among Eastern Catholics was later stamped out under the Austro-Hungarian Empire who ordered the removal of "very Orthodox" saints and miraculous icons (i.e. Pochayiv, Kazan) from the Ukrainian Catholic calendar and devotional life in the 19th century!"
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 02:33:49 PM »

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I have been looking for as much concrete documentation on official Vatican policy on this subject as I can, and have so far found next to nothing.

BLF, I'm not sure how much you'll find.  The Byzantine Rite Russians have no hierarchy and I would assume the Vatican is in no rush to foster that movement given the ecumenical sensitivities involved.  I get the impression the handful of parishes here are made up basically of a handful of converts who are very different in style, ethos and background than their ethnic Eastern Catholic compatriots.  Those people (cradle, ethnic EC's), are generally not real interested in post schism Orthodox saints.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 02:35:51 PM by welkodox » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 06:11:12 PM »

  Greek Catholics in Austria were forced in the 19th century to remove the feasts of a number of Orthodox saints & wonderworking ikons from their calendars, and consequently complied. 


Such actions were not just confined to Greek Catholics, but also to Ukranian Catholics when in the 1920s Pope Pius XI ordered that they Latinize and give up the Eastern Rite, traditions and practices.  A lot of the Ukranian Catholics complied, but some did not and ended up becoming Lutheran who use an adapted form of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2007, 06:35:14 AM »

Such actions were not just confined to Greek Catholics, but also to Ukranian Catholics when in the 1920s Pope Pius XI ordered that they Latinize and give up the Eastern Rite, traditions and practices.  A lot of the Ukranian Catholics complied, but some did not and ended up becoming Lutheran who use an adapted form of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Scamandrius

I think by Greek Catholics he simply meant eastern rite Catholics. It's a synonym for the 'U' word that we dare not speak. I'm pretty sure he was using it in this sense as clearly there weren't any ethnically Greek Catholics in Austro-Hungary. I'd also note that in my wife's home town, where eastern rite catholics are so clearly Ukrainian that their church is often simply referred to as the Ukrainian church and where they conduct the Liturgy solely in either Slavonic or Ukrainian (I'm afraid I cannot tell the difference but it certainly isn't Romanian), eastern rite catholics are almost always referred to as Greco-Catolic, or Greek Catholic. It's a confusing title to be sure, but the Greek clearly does not refer to the ethnicity of those practicing the faith.

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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2007, 11:19:23 AM »

"in the 1920s Pope Pius XI ordered that they Latinize and give up the Eastern Rite, traditions and practices."

Never heard of this before. Pope Pius XI was in fact very supportive of the Eastern Catholic Churches, writing two Encyclicals on them and giving the Oriental Congregation exclusive oversight of the Eastern Churches freeing them from the other Latin congregations.

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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2007, 11:27:22 AM »

"I get the impression the handful of parishes here are made up basically of a handful of converts who are very different in style, ethos and background than their ethnic Eastern Catholic compatriots."

To an extent this is true.

"Those people (cradle, ethnic EC's), are generally not real interested in post schism Orthodox saints."

You might be surprised.  There is real interest even among cradle EC's about certain EO post-schism saints particularly St. Gregory Palamas, who has been restored to our calendars, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sergius of Radonezh, St. John of Krondstadt, St. Herman of Alaska among others.  It is not uncommon to find their icons in our churches.

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Bl. Leonid Feodorov
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2007, 03:12:44 PM »

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here is real interest even among cradle EC's about certain EO post-schism saints particularly St. Gregory Palamas, who has been restored to our calendars, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sergius of Radonezh, St. John of Krondstadt, St. Herman of Alaska among others

Aside from Pope Pius XII's inclusion of the post-schism Russians on the calendar he approved for Russian Catholics, & the Melkites' restoration Gregory Palamas, could you show other instances of Eastern Catholic hierarchy officially condoning the cult of post-schism saints?

Having icons in their Church is one thing; official hierarchical approbation seems to be another.

And do you know which saints other than Sergei Radonezhsky & Alexander Nevsky were included on that calendar approved by Pius XII?
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2007, 04:29:49 PM »

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Having icons in their Church is one thing; official hierarchical approbation seems to be another.

I think when you start seeing the first two Sundays of Lent in EC churches called something other than the "first" and "second" Sunday of Lent, or you commonly EC churches named after post schism Orthodox saints, or you go in to EC churches and hear troparia honoring post schism Orthodox saints on their feast days, etc. - then something will have changed. (and I don't doubt that in a very few high EC churches they might do things like that now)


What I think is really being talked about for the most part here is that some people and some priests are engaging in low key veneration of some select saints.  Privately I think Catholics can pretty much venerate who they want, and I've even seen some high minded ones praise St. Photios and St. Mark Eugenikos.

No doubt however a good many EC's would be fairly horrified by any or all of the above.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 04:32:59 PM by welkodox » Logged
Bl. Leonid Feodorov
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2007, 05:48:00 PM »

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I think when you start seeing the first two Sundays of Lent in EC churches called something other than the "first" and "second" Sunday of Lent, or you commonly EC churches named after post schism Orthodox saints, or you go in to EC churches and hear troparia honoring post schism Orthodox saints on their feast days, etc. - then something will have changed.


Aside from the Feast of the Triumph of Orthodoxy (which to me does not seem to present a problem even from a Traditionalist perspective) & the feast of St. Gregory Palamas which the Melkites have restored, I know of no Eastern Catholics having churches named after post-schism saints (at least those not approved directly by Rome as in the case of Pius XII and his Russian Calendar) or singing their troparia.  If you run across any exeptions, I would be interested to know of them.
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2007, 06:00:32 PM »

Here a Russian Catholic Parish named after a post-schism Russian Saint:
St. Metropolitan Philip of Moscow Russian Orthodox Parish
in Communion with the See of Rome
http://stmichaelruscath.org/outbound/parishes/russia.php
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2007, 02:36:33 PM »

I would also add that not only are post-schism Orthodox saints approved for official veneration by Eastern Catholics, some have been put in the Roman Martyrology, meaning Mass could officially be offered in their honor as an Optional Memorial.

From the Roman Martyrology:

"In monasterio Sanctissimae Trinitatis in Mosquensi Russiae regione, sancti Sergii de Radonez, qui, primum in silvis asperis eremita, dein vitam coenobiticam coluit et hegumenus electus propagavit, vir mitis, consiliarius principum et consolator fidelium" (Martyrologium Romanum, page 536).
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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2007, 07:40:18 AM »

I have been told that the Roman Catholic Church does not count St. Photius as a saint, but that the Greek Catholic church does. Thus the western and eastern branches of the Catholic church don't have the same saints.
Depending of course on whether what I was told was true, or not.
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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2007, 03:49:08 PM »

I could be wrong, but I believe neither the Latin nor Byzantine rite mention him on the liturgical calendar.
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2007, 03:11:15 PM »

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I could be wrong, but I believe neither the Latin nor Byzantine rite mention him on the liturgical calendar.

The Melkites included Photios on their calendar in the 1990's.
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2007, 03:21:25 PM »

There was an article, I think maybe still posted on this site, written by a Catholic that I thought gave a good and balanced view of St. Photios.  Maybe that has something to do with this.
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« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2007, 02:40:39 AM »

  Deacon Lance wrote:

   "Here a Russian Catholic Parish named after a post-schism Russian Saint:
St. Metropolitan Philip of Moscow Russian Orthodox Parish
in Communion with the See of Rome"

   Now, I am quite aware of the propensity we have today of recognizing anyone by what they call themselves. However, this Russian Catholic Parish is most certainly NOT an Orthodox Church-why would they want to be indentified as one, except to confuse, or deceive someone who is Orthodox? And, since the Pope has done us the great favor of "recognizing" some post schsim Russian Saints, I suppose we Orthodox should return the favor and "recognize" the master of forced conversions and murderer of Orthodox Christians, Josaphat Kuntsevich as a Saint!
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