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Author Topic: Catholic Recognition of Orthodox Saints post-schism  (Read 6820 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bl. Leonid Feodorov
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« on: January 17, 2007, 05:31:55 PM »

I have read that in 1940 Pope Pius XII of blessed memory issued a calender for Russian Catholic usage which included about 20 post-'schism' saints canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church (and by 'post-schism' I mean post-1054, though the exact date of any definitive schism is debatable).  I know that St. Sergey Radonezhsky was among them, but what others there were I do not know. 

I have been unable to locate this calendar.  Does anyone have information on this?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 05:32:26 PM by Bl. Leonid Feodorov » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2007, 05:55:51 PM »

Considering that this is an Orthodox message board (depsite M777's claims), you probably won't get much help to this question.
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2007, 06:17:36 PM »

He also included St. Alexander Nevsky, but those are the only two right off my head.
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2007, 06:31:18 PM »

Considering that this is an Orthodox message board (depsite M777's claims), you probably won't get much help to this question.

I have been surprised by the number of Catholics I has seen to comment on this forum.  I thought I would try my luck.

He also included St. Alexander Nevsky, but those are the only two right off my head.

Thanks. 
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 10:47:21 AM »

I recall reading that all of the saints from the Russian calendar were accepted except ones that were deemed "Anti Roman".  One I believe who was not included was St. Athanasius of Brest.  I would assume St. Mark Eugenikos and St. Job of Pochaev probably didn't make the cut either.
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 10:11:36 PM »

I brought this up on the Byzantine forum & Dr. Alexander Roman replied saying something to the same effect.  He mentioned a Russian Catholic priest he knew who simply used the Russian Orthodox calender with very little modification.  But I do not know the extent of Vatican approval for such practice.  Greek Catholics in Austria were forced in the 19th century to remove the feasts of a number of Orthodox saints & wonderworking ikons from their calendars, and consequently complied. 

I have been looking for as much concrete documentation on official Vatican policy on this subject as I can, and have so far found next to nothing.  I'm hoping soon to read Fr. Cyril Korolevsky's biography of Ven. Andrei Metr. Sheptystsky which includes an essay on Uniatism, and, I am told, addresses some of these concerns.  (It was Fr. Serge Keleher, on the same forum, and who is the translator of the aforementioned work, said that both Metr. Sheptytsky & Bl. Leonid Feodorov encouraged the cults of local Orthodox saints in any Orthodox parishes that joined the Union.)
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 01:39:10 AM »

Greek Catholics in Austria were forced in the 19th century to remove the feasts of a number of Orthodox saints & wonderworking ikons from their calendars, and consequently complied.

This seemed to be common in the former Austro-Hungarian Empire.

"The remaining local expressions of the cult of St Athanasius among Eastern Catholics was later stamped out under the Austro-Hungarian Empire who ordered the removal of "very Orthodox" saints and miraculous icons (i.e. Pochayiv, Kazan) from the Ukrainian Catholic calendar and devotional life in the 19th century!"
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 02:33:49 PM »

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I have been looking for as much concrete documentation on official Vatican policy on this subject as I can, and have so far found next to nothing.

BLF, I'm not sure how much you'll find.  The Byzantine Rite Russians have no hierarchy and I would assume the Vatican is in no rush to foster that movement given the ecumenical sensitivities involved.  I get the impression the handful of parishes here are made up basically of a handful of converts who are very different in style, ethos and background than their ethnic Eastern Catholic compatriots.  Those people (cradle, ethnic EC's), are generally not real interested in post schism Orthodox saints.
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 06:11:12 PM »

  Greek Catholics in Austria were forced in the 19th century to remove the feasts of a number of Orthodox saints & wonderworking ikons from their calendars, and consequently complied. 


Such actions were not just confined to Greek Catholics, but also to Ukranian Catholics when in the 1920s Pope Pius XI ordered that they Latinize and give up the Eastern Rite, traditions and practices.  A lot of the Ukranian Catholics complied, but some did not and ended up becoming Lutheran who use an adapted form of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2007, 06:35:14 AM »

Such actions were not just confined to Greek Catholics, but also to Ukranian Catholics when in the 1920s Pope Pius XI ordered that they Latinize and give up the Eastern Rite, traditions and practices.  A lot of the Ukranian Catholics complied, but some did not and ended up becoming Lutheran who use an adapted form of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Scamandrius

I think by Greek Catholics he simply meant eastern rite Catholics. It's a synonym for the 'U' word that we dare not speak. I'm pretty sure he was using it in this sense as clearly there weren't any ethnically Greek Catholics in Austro-Hungary. I'd also note that in my wife's home town, where eastern rite catholics are so clearly Ukrainian that their church is often simply referred to as the Ukrainian church and where they conduct the Liturgy solely in either Slavonic or Ukrainian (I'm afraid I cannot tell the difference but it certainly isn't Romanian), eastern rite catholics are almost always referred to as Greco-Catolic, or Greek Catholic. It's a confusing title to be sure, but the Greek clearly does not refer to the ethnicity of those practicing the faith.

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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2007, 11:19:23 AM »

"in the 1920s Pope Pius XI ordered that they Latinize and give up the Eastern Rite, traditions and practices."

Never heard of this before. Pope Pius XI was in fact very supportive of the Eastern Catholic Churches, writing two Encyclicals on them and giving the Oriental Congregation exclusive oversight of the Eastern Churches freeing them from the other Latin congregations.

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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2007, 11:27:22 AM »

"I get the impression the handful of parishes here are made up basically of a handful of converts who are very different in style, ethos and background than their ethnic Eastern Catholic compatriots."

To an extent this is true.

"Those people (cradle, ethnic EC's), are generally not real interested in post schism Orthodox saints."

You might be surprised.  There is real interest even among cradle EC's about certain EO post-schism saints particularly St. Gregory Palamas, who has been restored to our calendars, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sergius of Radonezh, St. John of Krondstadt, St. Herman of Alaska among others.  It is not uncommon to find their icons in our churches.

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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2007, 03:12:44 PM »

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here is real interest even among cradle EC's about certain EO post-schism saints particularly St. Gregory Palamas, who has been restored to our calendars, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sergius of Radonezh, St. John of Krondstadt, St. Herman of Alaska among others

Aside from Pope Pius XII's inclusion of the post-schism Russians on the calendar he approved for Russian Catholics, & the Melkites' restoration Gregory Palamas, could you show other instances of Eastern Catholic hierarchy officially condoning the cult of post-schism saints?

Having icons in their Church is one thing; official hierarchical approbation seems to be another.

And do you know which saints other than Sergei Radonezhsky & Alexander Nevsky were included on that calendar approved by Pius XII?
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2007, 04:29:49 PM »

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Having icons in their Church is one thing; official hierarchical approbation seems to be another.

I think when you start seeing the first two Sundays of Lent in EC churches called something other than the "first" and "second" Sunday of Lent, or you commonly EC churches named after post schism Orthodox saints, or you go in to EC churches and hear troparia honoring post schism Orthodox saints on their feast days, etc. - then something will have changed. (and I don't doubt that in a very few high EC churches they might do things like that now)


What I think is really being talked about for the most part here is that some people and some priests are engaging in low key veneration of some select saints.  Privately I think Catholics can pretty much venerate who they want, and I've even seen some high minded ones praise St. Photios and St. Mark Eugenikos.

No doubt however a good many EC's would be fairly horrified by any or all of the above.
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2007, 05:48:00 PM »

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I think when you start seeing the first two Sundays of Lent in EC churches called something other than the "first" and "second" Sunday of Lent, or you commonly EC churches named after post schism Orthodox saints, or you go in to EC churches and hear troparia honoring post schism Orthodox saints on their feast days, etc. - then something will have changed.


Aside from the Feast of the Triumph of Orthodoxy (which to me does not seem to present a problem even from a Traditionalist perspective) & the feast of St. Gregory Palamas which the Melkites have restored, I know of no Eastern Catholics having churches named after post-schism saints (at least those not approved directly by Rome as in the case of Pius XII and his Russian Calendar) or singing their troparia.  If you run across any exeptions, I would be interested to know of them.
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2007, 06:00:32 PM »

Here a Russian Catholic Parish named after a post-schism Russian Saint:
St. Metropolitan Philip of Moscow Russian Orthodox Parish
in Communion with the See of Rome
http://stmichaelruscath.org/outbound/parishes/russia.php
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2007, 02:36:33 PM »

I would also add that not only are post-schism Orthodox saints approved for official veneration by Eastern Catholics, some have been put in the Roman Martyrology, meaning Mass could officially be offered in their honor as an Optional Memorial.

From the Roman Martyrology:

"In monasterio Sanctissimae Trinitatis in Mosquensi Russiae regione, sancti Sergii de Radonez, qui, primum in silvis asperis eremita, dein vitam coenobiticam coluit et hegumenus electus propagavit, vir mitis, consiliarius principum et consolator fidelium" (Martyrologium Romanum, page 536).
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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2007, 07:40:18 AM »

I have been told that the Roman Catholic Church does not count St. Photius as a saint, but that the Greek Catholic church does. Thus the western and eastern branches of the Catholic church don't have the same saints.
Depending of course on whether what I was told was true, or not.
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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2007, 03:49:08 PM »

I could be wrong, but I believe neither the Latin nor Byzantine rite mention him on the liturgical calendar.
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2007, 03:11:15 PM »

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I could be wrong, but I believe neither the Latin nor Byzantine rite mention him on the liturgical calendar.

The Melkites included Photios on their calendar in the 1990's.
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2007, 03:21:25 PM »

There was an article, I think maybe still posted on this site, written by a Catholic that I thought gave a good and balanced view of St. Photios.  Maybe that has something to do with this.
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« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2007, 02:40:39 AM »

  Deacon Lance wrote:

   "Here a Russian Catholic Parish named after a post-schism Russian Saint:
St. Metropolitan Philip of Moscow Russian Orthodox Parish
in Communion with the See of Rome"

   Now, I am quite aware of the propensity we have today of recognizing anyone by what they call themselves. However, this Russian Catholic Parish is most certainly NOT an Orthodox Church-why would they want to be indentified as one, except to confuse, or deceive someone who is Orthodox? And, since the Pope has done us the great favor of "recognizing" some post schsim Russian Saints, I suppose we Orthodox should return the favor and "recognize" the master of forced conversions and murderer of Orthodox Christians, Josaphat Kuntsevich as a Saint!
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2014, 04:38:26 AM »

1. St. Sava of Serbia (January 14) [1174-1237]
2. St. Nicetas of Novgorod (January 31) [†1108]
3. St. John the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
4. St. Anthony the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
5. St. Eustace the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
6. St. Stephen the Enlightener of Perm (April 26) [1340-1396]
7. St. Stephen Pechersky (April 27) [†1094]
8. St. Cyril of Turov (April 28) [1130-1182]
9. St. Ignatius of Rostov (April 28) [†1288]
10. St. Isaiah the Wonderworker of Rostov (May 15) [†1090]
11. St. Euphrosyne of Polotsk (May 23) [†1173]
12. St. Leontius of Rostov (May 23) [†1077]
13. St. Nicetas the Wonderworker of Pereaslavl (May 24) [†1186]
14. St. German of Valaam (June 28) [†?]
15. St. Sergius of Valaam (June 28) [†?]
16. St. Anthony of the Kiev Caves (July 10) [983-1073]
17. St. Theodosius of the Kiev Caves (July 10)
18. St. Theodore the Black of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
19. St. David of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
20. St. Constantine of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
21. St. Michael the Martyr, Wonderworker of Chernigov (September 21) [†1246]
22. St. Theodore the Martyr, Wonderworker of Chernigov (September 21) [†1246]
23. St. Sergius the Wonderworker of Radonezh (September 25) [1314-1392]
24. St. Abraham the Wonderworker of Rostov (October 29) [†1073]
25. St. Barlaam of Khutyn (November 6) [†1193]
26. St. Gregory Palamas the Wonderworker of Thessalonica (Second Sunday of Great Lent) [1296-1359]
27. St. Nicephorus the Solitary of the Medikion Monastery on Mt. Athos (May 5) [†1300?]
28. St. Parasceva Petca the New of Tarnovo (October 14) [†1201?]
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2014, 07:15:29 AM »

Interesting revival of an old thread. Yes, we can publicly venerate the post-schism Orthodox saints except the few explicitly anti-Catholic ones; some Byzantine Catholics such as the Russian Catholic Church (failed mission; mostly non-Russians plus a few ex-Orthodox in Russia who switched on their own, just like the Russian Catholics 100 years ago) do liturgically.

I know there is a Ukrainian Lutheran Church that started with ex-Byzantine Catholics in the '20s or '30s, but I am positive that Pope Pius XI did not try to eliminate the Byzantine Rite in the Ukraine or anywhere else. (He signed off on making clerical celibacy the rule for all Catholics in America, which the church can do but was a mistake, causing a schism and much heartbreak.) I have no idea why the Ukrainian Lutheran Church's founders left the church. Anyway, joining a church even more Western than us in order to be more Eastern would make no sense. I've been to the Ukrainian Lutheran Church's website. They're not really a Byzantine Rite church. Rather, they're regular Western Lutherans who have a slightly protestantized Byzantine Rite option. Some of their pastors and congregations are very inculturated, keeping their native three-bar cross, vestments, and icons; their Byzantine Rite is part of that. I have no idea if they're liberal high-church Lutherans like the Swedes or conservative like the Missouri Synod. The Missouri Synod has a mission in Russia, not byzantinized as far as I know.

That church in Russia dedicated to Met. Philip of Moscow is Russian Catholic; they're ex-Orthodox trying to express their belief that Catholicism is the fullness of Orthodoxy, which of course offends the Orthodox. Don't worry too much; the Catholic Church keeps quiet about such parishes, not trying to trick Russians to make them individually switch. When such people ask to convert, they're accepted, quietly.
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2014, 11:45:13 AM »

That church in Russia dedicated to Met. Philip of Moscow is Russian Catholic; they're ex-Orthodox trying to express their belief that Catholicism is the fullness of Orthodoxy, which of course offends the Orthodox. Don't worry too much; the Catholic Church keeps quiet about such parishes, not trying to trick Russians to make them individually switch. When such people ask to convert, they're accepted, quietly.

Uh yeah, it does, and I'm sure conversely you wouldn't be too thrilled if we triumphantly heralded Western Orthodox Christians as the fullness of Catholicism in public, nor would your coreligionists.

And it's not like that hasn't been tried before; excuse us if a few of us might still be a little bit leery.
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2014, 12:41:56 PM »

"I get the impression the handful of parishes here are made up basically of a handful of converts who are very different in style, ethos and background than their ethnic Eastern Catholic compatriots."

To an extent this is true.

"Those people (cradle, ethnic EC's), are generally not real interested in post schism Orthodox saints."

You might be surprised.  There is real interest even among cradle EC's about certain EO post-schism saints particularly St. Gregory Palamas, who has been restored to our calendars, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sergius of Radonezh, St. John of Krondstadt, St. Herman of Alaska among others.  It is not uncommon to find their icons in our churches.

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I called in to Catholic Answers about a month ago and asked how Catholicism reconciled its two contradictory theologies of grace. That is, the Eastern ("Palamite") and Western. I explained the Eastern understanding that grace IS God, as opposed to Western created grace. The response was not only underwhelming, but disappointing. The commentator flat out denied that any Catholics believed that grace was uncreated and then I got to hear a five minute monologue about how Orthodoxy is bereft of modern Ecumenical Councils, that no bishops can agree on who would call one, and that I should read the books he wrote on the matter. After hearing such ignorance on what I consider a pretty basic concepts of Eastern belief, there is no way I would go near his books. I think such widespread ignorance and the treating of Orthodox as rebellious and simple little Luddite children really turns off the Orthodox to ecumenical dialogue.

I assume there is an actual answer to this pretty big question. Do you know?
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2014, 12:55:14 PM »

That church in Russia dedicated to Met. Philip of Moscow is Russian Catholic; they're ex-Orthodox trying to express their belief that Catholicism is the fullness of Orthodoxy, which of course offends the Orthodox. Don't worry too much; the Catholic Church keeps quiet about such parishes, not trying to trick Russians to make them individually switch. When such people ask to convert, they're accepted, quietly.

Uh yeah, it does, and I'm sure conversely you wouldn't be too thrilled if we triumphantly heralded Western Orthodox Christians as the fullness of Catholicism in public, nor would your coreligionists.

And it's not like that hasn't been tried before; excuse us if a few of us might still be a little bit leery.
Well if you really believe Western Orthodox is what the Roman Catholic Church should be, then maybe you should do just that. I don't know why we are so quiet about it ourselves.
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2014, 01:31:05 PM »

That church in Russia dedicated to Met. Philip of Moscow is Russian Catholic; they're ex-Orthodox trying to express their belief that Catholicism is the fullness of Orthodoxy, which of course offends the Orthodox. Don't worry too much; the Catholic Church keeps quiet about such parishes, not trying to trick Russians to make them individually switch. When such people ask to convert, they're accepted, quietly.

Uh yeah, it does, and I'm sure conversely you wouldn't be too thrilled if we triumphantly heralded Western Orthodox Christians as the fullness of Catholicism in public, nor would your coreligionists.

And it's not like that hasn't been tried before; excuse us if a few of us might still be a little bit leery.
Well if you really believe Western Orthodox is what the Roman Catholic Church should be, then maybe you should do just that. I don't know why we are so quiet about it ourselves.
I don't think most do believe that it is though. Truly, though I feel bad for being so cynical, I do not think that the Western Rite in the next century will ever become much more than a provisional use sort of deal under a vicariate. The conditions which created the multiple rites of the West (Ambrosian, Roman, Mozarabic, etc.) simply do not exist anymore, as there are no longer multiple autocephalous churches in the West. The only way we could get a true Western Orthodoxy to exist is if we were to eliminate the problem of overlapping jurisdictions in the diaspora, make a goal of creating several autocephalous churches in the West, and then slowly incorporate the Western Rite into their worship as these churches mature enough to be granted autocephaly.
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2014, 08:05:08 PM »

"I get the impression the handful of parishes here are made up basically of a handful of converts who are very different in style, ethos and background than their ethnic Eastern Catholic compatriots."

To an extent this is true.

"Those people (cradle, ethnic EC's), are generally not real interested in post schism Orthodox saints."

You might be surprised.  There is real interest even among cradle EC's about certain EO post-schism saints particularly St. Gregory Palamas, who has been restored to our calendars, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sergius of Radonezh, St. John of Krondstadt, St. Herman of Alaska among others.  It is not uncommon to find their icons in our churches.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Father Deacon, perhaps you can answer a question for me.

I called in to Catholic Answers about a month ago and asked how Catholicism reconciled its two contradictory theologies of grace. That is, the Eastern ("Palamite") and Western. I explained the Eastern understanding that grace IS God, as opposed to Western created grace. The response was not only underwhelming, but disappointing. The commentator flat out denied that any Catholics believed that grace was uncreated and then I got to hear a five minute monologue about how Orthodoxy is bereft of modern Ecumenical Councils, that no bishops can agree on who would call one, and that I should read the books he wrote on the matter. After hearing such ignorance on what I consider a pretty basic concepts of Eastern belief, there is no way I would go near his books. I think such widespread ignorance and the treating of Orthodox as rebellious and simple little Luddite children really turns off the Orthodox to ecumenical dialogue.

I assume there is an actual answer to this pretty big question. Do you know?

Hope this helps.
http://books.google.com/books?id=DgtUoMqm594C&pg=PA243&dq=%22Several+Western+scholars+contend%22&hl=en&ei=hIYXTbXZOo-asAO_oPHaCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Several%20Western%20scholars%20contend%22&f=true
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2014, 08:40:18 PM »

"I get the impression the handful of parishes here are made up basically of a handful of converts who are very different in style, ethos and background than their ethnic Eastern Catholic compatriots."

To an extent this is true.

"Those people (cradle, ethnic EC's), are generally not real interested in post schism Orthodox saints."

You might be surprised.  There is real interest even among cradle EC's about certain EO post-schism saints particularly St. Gregory Palamas, who has been restored to our calendars, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sergius of Radonezh, St. John of Krondstadt, St. Herman of Alaska among others.  It is not uncommon to find their icons in our churches.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Father Deacon, perhaps you can answer a question for me.

I called in to Catholic Answers about a month ago and asked how Catholicism reconciled its two contradictory theologies of grace. That is, the Eastern ("Palamite") and Western. I explained the Eastern understanding that grace IS God, as opposed to Western created grace. The response was not only underwhelming, but disappointing. The commentator flat out denied that any Catholics believed that grace was uncreated and then I got to hear a five minute monologue about how Orthodoxy is bereft of modern Ecumenical Councils, that no bishops can agree on who would call one, and that I should read the books he wrote on the matter. After hearing such ignorance on what I consider a pretty basic concepts of Eastern belief, there is no way I would go near his books. I think such widespread ignorance and the treating of Orthodox as rebellious and simple little Luddite children really turns off the Orthodox to ecumenical dialogue.

I assume there is an actual answer to this pretty big question. Do you know?

It makes me crazy when I hear things like this, especially since a Catholic Answers "apologist" should know better. Look, St. Thomas Aquinas himself teaches that only God can sanctify, and that the power to sanctify is beyond any created thing. Thus, when one is in a State of Grace, one has God's very life within. This seems to map very easily onto the Eastern Concept that sanctification is the work of God in his Energies. What some westerners mean by "created grace" is not the "stuff" of Grace, since that "stuff" is God who is uncreated. What I understand by the term "created grace" to mean is merely the state of possessing that "stuff" since the state did in fact come to be for the the creature who has been sanctified.
*Substance of Grace is uncreated, since it is God's life/God's energies
*The state of possessing that grace is created, since there was a time when the now sanctified creature was not sanctified.
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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2014, 10:08:00 PM »

Thank you very much, both of you. I actually found record of the conversation (if you're interested at all Tongue), I come in around 18:30.

http://www.catholic.com/audio-player/12643

I think you can hear why I was disappointed.  Tongue
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2014, 10:39:21 PM »

Thank you very much, both of you. I actually found record of the conversation (if you're interested at all Tongue), I come in around 18:30.

http://www.catholic.com/audio-player/12643

I think you can hear why I was disappointed.  Tongue

The one pretty much said grace is God ("God's life"), but then the other immediately turns around and explicitly denies that it's God (how can "God's life" be something other than God?).

Lol, "but they don't have the ability to call councils to deal with modern life." Oh man, gotta love that good ol' "the pope is the only answer to any problem in any age ever, and nothing else can possibly work without a pope-figure."
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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2014, 10:55:31 PM »

Like I said, it feels like they view the Orthodox as very simple, deluded children that can't seem to shake their old-world tendencies and see what's right in front of their face. I expected more from them, to be honest. I see them pay more respect to Protestant groups.
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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2014, 11:36:58 PM »

Like I said, it feels like they view the Orthodox as very simple, deluded children that can't seem to shake their old-world tendencies and see what's right in front of their face. I expected more from them, to be honest. I see them pay more respect to Protestant groups.

That was ridiculous!
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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2014, 11:57:59 PM »

Like I said, it feels like they view the Orthodox as very simple, deluded children that can't seem to shake their old-world tendencies and see what's right in front of their face. I expected more from them, to be honest. I see them pay more respect to Protestant groups.

That was ridiculous!

Do we really care if Catholics recognize Post Schism Orthodox Saints..... for God's sake..
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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2014, 12:15:06 AM »

Quote
Lol, "but they don't have the ability to call councils to deal with modern life."

As most of you know, I'm on your side vs. modernizing Vatican II nonsense.

Quote
Oh man, gotta love that good ol' "the pope is the only answer to any problem in any age ever..."

Not Catholic doctrine, and in fact at my traditional Mass this past Sunday the priest's sermon explained that it's not.

Quote
Like I said, it feels like they view the Orthodox as very simple, deluded children that can't seem to shake their old-world tendencies and see what's right in front of their face. I expected more from them, to be honest. I see them pay more respect to Protestant groups.

Sounds like condescension from liberal Protestants. Traditional Western Catholicism is every bit as Old World. Reminds me of the Catholic goofballs in the '80s who looooooved John Paul II and would tell traditionalists to drop all that embarrassing gaudy steerage Catholicism and become charismatics. That said, my difference with Orthodoxy is "what's right in front of your face" is we're really the same faith even though we're not in your rite, culture, or nation.

Quote
Do we really care if Catholics recognize Post Schism Orthodox Saints..... for God's sake.

Makes sense. If you really believe you've joined the true church, turn your back on us and declare us apostates. But a selling point of Catholicism for me is it has never told me to hate the Orthodox tradition.
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« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2014, 12:21:22 AM »

"I get the impression the handful of parishes here are made up basically of a handful of converts who are very different in style, ethos and background than their ethnic Eastern Catholic compatriots."

To an extent this is true.

"Those people (cradle, ethnic EC's), are generally not real interested in post schism Orthodox saints."

You might be surprised.  There is real interest even among cradle EC's about certain EO post-schism saints particularly St. Gregory Palamas, who has been restored to our calendars, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sergius of Radonezh, St. John of Krondstadt, St. Herman of Alaska among others.  It is not uncommon to find their icons in our churches.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Father Deacon, perhaps you can answer a question for me.

I called in to Catholic Answers about a month ago and asked how Catholicism reconciled its two contradictory theologies of grace. That is, the Eastern ("Palamite") and Western. I explained the Eastern understanding that grace IS God, as opposed to Western created grace. The response was not only underwhelming, but disappointing. The commentator flat out denied that any Catholics believed that grace was uncreated and then I got to hear a five minute monologue about how Orthodoxy is bereft of modern Ecumenical Councils, that no bishops can agree on who would call one, and that I should read the books he wrote on the matter. After hearing such ignorance on what I consider a pretty basic concepts of Eastern belief, there is no way I would go near his books. I think such widespread ignorance and the treating of Orthodox as rebellious and simple little Luddite children really turns off the Orthodox to ecumenical dialogue.

I assume there is an actual answer to this pretty big question. Do you know?

It makes me crazy when I hear things like this, especially since a Catholic Answers "apologist" should know better. Look, St. Thomas Aquinas himself teaches that only God can sanctify, and that the power to sanctify is beyond any created thing. Thus, when one is in a State of Grace, one has God's very life within. This seems to map very easily onto the Eastern Concept that sanctification is the work of God in his Energies. What some westerners mean by "created grace" is not the "stuff" of Grace, since that "stuff" is God who is uncreated. What I understand by the term "created grace" to mean is merely the state of possessing that "stuff" since the state did in fact come to be for the the creature who has been sanctified.
*Substance of Grace is uncreated, since it is God's life/God's energies
*The state of possessing that grace is created, since there was a time when the now sanctified creature was not sanctified.

This Catholic priest seems to agree with you, and does talk about grace as both uncreated and created depending on what you are talking about.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/grace1.htm
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« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2014, 12:30:02 AM »

Quote
Lol, "but they don't have the ability to call councils to deal with modern life."

As most of you know, I'm on your side vs. modernizing Vatican II nonsense.

Quote
Oh man, gotta love that good ol' "the pope is the only answer to any problem in any age ever..."

Not Catholic doctrine, and in fact at my traditional Mass this past Sunday the priest's sermon explained that it's not.

Quote
Like I said, it feels like they view the Orthodox as very simple, deluded children that can't seem to shake their old-world tendencies and see what's right in front of their face. I expected more from them, to be honest. I see them pay more respect to Protestant groups.

Sounds like condescension from liberal Protestants. Traditional Western Catholicism is every bit as Old World. Reminds me of the Catholic goofballs in the '80s who looooooved John Paul II and would tell traditionalists to drop all that embarrassing gaudy steerage Catholicism and become charismatics. That said, my difference with Orthodoxy is "what's right in front of your face" is we're really the same faith even though we're not in your rite, culture, or nation.

Quote
Do we really care if Catholics recognize Post Schism Orthodox Saints..... for God's sake.

Makes sense. If you really believe you've joined the true church, turn your back on us and declare us apostates. But a selling point of Catholicism for me is it has never told me to hate the Orthodox tradition.

I reiterate: Do we really care if Catholics recognize Post Schism Orthodox Saints..... for God's sake..
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« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2014, 12:35:16 AM »

Quote
Lol, "but they don't have the ability to call councils to deal with modern life."

As most of you know, I'm on your side vs. modernizing Vatican II nonsense.

Quote
Oh man, gotta love that good ol' "the pope is the only answer to any problem in any age ever..."

Not Catholic doctrine, and in fact at my traditional Mass this past Sunday the priest's sermon explained that it's not.

Quote
Like I said, it feels like they view the Orthodox as very simple, deluded children that can't seem to shake their old-world tendencies and see what's right in front of their face. I expected more from them, to be honest. I see them pay more respect to Protestant groups.

Sounds like condescension from liberal Protestants. Traditional Western Catholicism is every bit as Old World. Reminds me of the Catholic goofballs in the '80s who looooooved John Paul II and would tell traditionalists to drop all that embarrassing gaudy steerage Catholicism and become charismatics. That said, my difference with Orthodoxy is "what's right in front of your face" is we're really the same faith even though we're not in your rite, culture, or nation.

Quote
Do we really care if Catholics recognize Post Schism Orthodox Saints..... for God's sake.

Makes sense. If you really believe you've joined the true church, turn your back on us and declare us apostates. But a selling point of Catholicism for me is it has never told me to hate the Orthodox tradition.

I reiterate: Do we really care if Catholics recognize Post Schism Orthodox Saints..... for God's sake..

Then don't participate in this thread if you don't care.  Some people are interested for information's sake.
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« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2014, 12:51:55 AM »

Sounds like condescension from liberal Protestants. Traditional Western Catholicism is every bit as Old World. Reminds me of the Catholic goofballs in the '80s who looooooved John Paul II and would tell traditionalists to drop all that embarrassing gaudy steerage Catholicism and become charismatics. That said, my difference with Orthodoxy is "what's right in front of your face" is we're really the same faith even though we're not in your rite, culture, or nation.


Makes sense. If you really believe you've joined the true church, turn your back on us and declare us apostates. But a selling point of Catholicism for me is it has never told me to hate the Orthodox tradition.

How can you say that no Catholic has never said that and that that's a Protestant criticism when there's been proof, right in this thread?

We have the same idea in Orthodoxy; you know, that's kind of a part of Christianity, not hating anyone. Likewise, we know where the Church is, but not where it isn't.

If you don't mind me asking you a thousand and one questions this evening (sorry about that), how can you say that we're the same Church? We have different theologies that can't even agree whether Mankind is inherently flawed or not.
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« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2014, 01:01:07 AM »

Sounds like condescension from liberal Protestants. Traditional Western Catholicism is every bit as Old World. Reminds me of the Catholic goofballs in the '80s who looooooved John Paul II and would tell traditionalists to drop all that embarrassing gaudy steerage Catholicism and become charismatics. That said, my difference with Orthodoxy is "what's right in front of your face" is we're really the same faith even though we're not in your rite, culture, or nation.


Makes sense. If you really believe you've joined the true church, turn your back on us and declare us apostates. But a selling point of Catholicism for me is it has never told me to hate the Orthodox tradition.

How can you say that no Catholic has never said that and that that's a Protestant criticism when there's been proof, right in this thread?

We have the same idea in Orthodoxy; you know, that's kind of a part of Christianity, not hating anyone. Likewise, we know where the Church is, but not where it isn't.

If you don't mind me asking you a thousand and one questions this evening (sorry about that), how can you say that we're the same Church? We have different theologies that can't even agree whether Mankind is inherently flawed or not.

You misunderstood the first part, my friend. I never deny that some, maybe even many, Catholics say stupid things. I was saying these Catholics saying stupid things happen to sound just like liberal Protestants.

Our church teaches that we're the same; you're just out of communion with us. Born Orthodox are estranged Catholics. The highfalutin stuff about original sin goes over my head. There are different schools of theological thought in Catholicism; we see the Byzantine one as part of that, not a different faith. What strikes me is some Orthodox apologists try so hard to deny they're really Catholic that they end up sounding Pelagian about original sin and Lutheran about the Eucharist; common among ex-evangelical apologists.

Are you from a Roman Rite Greek background?
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« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2014, 01:22:24 AM »

You misunderstood the first part, my friend. I never deny that some, maybe even many, Catholics say stupid things. I was saying these Catholics saying stupid things happen to sound just like liberal Protestants.

Our church teaches that we're the same; you're just out of communion with us. Born Orthodox are estranged Catholics. The highfalutin stuff about original sin goes over my head. There are different schools of theological thought in Catholicism; we see the Byzantine one as part of that, not a different faith. What strikes me is some Orthodox apologists try so hard to deny they're really Catholic that they end up sounding Pelagian about original sin and Lutheran about the Eucharist; common among ex-evangelical apologists.

Are you from a Roman Rite Greek background?

Misunderstand you I did, my apologies.

It goes over my head, too; I'm just a college student who has no formal training whatsoever in theology and I'm not qualified to speak with any confidence.  I don't even remotely try to understand the energies/essences debate.

I am not, although my dialect of Greek has quite a bit of Venetian thrown into it; Euboea was the colony of the Negroponte for several hundred years, so it makes perfect sense. Latin Rite Greeks are mostly found in the Cyclades, the Ionian Islands, and the suburbs around Athens (there are churches in Thessaloniki and Patras, too). The Ellinorythmi Church (Greeks that are Easterm Catholic) are only found in the suburbs of Athens with some Ukrainian Catholic migrant workers scattered in for good measure. There might be some Latins left in Crete and there's a very tiny community left in Cyprus and Rhodes. My Mother is Greek, my Father is Irish-American Catholic. I was baptized, had a first communion at 7, had a confirmation and all that, and I prepared for conversion to Orthodoxy at 13 which culminated with my chrismation at 16, much to my parents' equal shock as they had no bearing in my decision. My Father was a bit sad and coped with it by making "you left Holy Mother Church" jokes, but he stopped doing so after that made my Mother cry. It's been long enough by now that he's probably forgotten I was ever Catholic and he just considers me Orthodox.

Sadly enough, being Orthodox makes it much easier to gain dual citizenship with Greek as they accept baptismal certificates as a proof of the right of juis sanguinis because my Mother and Grandmother swore off their Greek citizenship. Perhaps if I had stayed Catholic it would've been harder to get Greek citizenship, but I don't know.
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« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2014, 06:00:40 AM »

Thanks. So why'd you convert? You're very knowledgeable about your mother's culture; you chose to identify with that, which is understandable. My background story is linked here. Adding to that, I made the big move from Episcopal to Catholic at a young age both because of truth issues historically and wanting to belong; being a teenager in largely Catholic New Jersey was a factor.
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« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2014, 06:49:10 AM »

Sadly enough, being Orthodox makes it much easier to gain dual citizenship with Greek as they accept baptismal certificates as a proof of the right of juis sanguinis because my Mother and Grandmother swore off their Greek citizenship.
To whom did they swear anything, to American or Greek authorities?
Usually, there is a "once Greek, always Greek" rule. Even if you become a citizen of another country, Greece still considers you to be Greek.
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« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2014, 07:02:10 AM »

To whom did they swear anything, to American or Greek authorities? Usually, there is a "once Greek, always Greek" rule. Even if you become a citizen of another country, Greece still considers you to be Greek.

A lot of countries have rules like that. The UK, for example, so Sir Anthony Hopkins gets to keep his knighthood even though he became an American citizen. Some Brits have done legal footwork to keep both citizenships: Dame Angela Lansbury, for example. Canada rather recently changed to allow dual citizenship so several Canadian celebrities living in America, from Pamela Anderson (that's right, she's not an American) to the late Peter Jennings, took American citizenship; Robert MacNeil got the Order of Canada award and his U.S. passport at about the same time! Lots of places have jus sanguinis rules too. For example, grandchildren of British, Irish, and Italian immigrants can easily get those citizenships even if the grandparent became American (I guess they're still claimed: "once, always"). Greece might be different because Orthodoxy is its state church.
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