Eastern Catholics as a bridge for unity

[scamandrius]

Isn't this exactly what the Orthodox, especially Patriarch Vartholomaios, have been saying is NOT an acceptable means of reconciliation?  The pope always seems to agree at first to Orthodox concerns then renegs. See the article at:

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=100003

Try to avoid laughing at the historical errors, but remember that this is a Vatican News Service.

Scamandrius

[cothrige]

Following on the good developments lately between Pope Benedict and the Orthodox I was very disappointed when I read this.  I had hoped that perhaps he would be a bit more understanding of what really troubles the Orthodox rather than just keeping to the status quo of recent memory.  But, perhaps there is more being said  than is being reported in this brief piece.  I certainly hope so.

Patrick

[lubeltri]

I mean, what do you expect him to do? Order the Eastern Catholics to go into schism? I think that's for Eastern Catholics to decide. I think the geographic and liturgical proximity of Eastern Catholics and Orthodox does put the Eastern Catholics in a particularly important position with regard to relations with Orthodox. They are, after all, one of the biggest challenges (obstacles?) to ecumenical relations between  Catholicism and Orthodoxy. For much progress to occur, the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox are going to have to bury their historical, political and ethnic resentments. I think Benedict recognizes that and understands that a lot of this healing will have to be under the aegis of Easterners in and out of communion with Rome. 

I don't think the pope's words were really controversial.

[Asteriktos]

I don't think the pope's words were really controversial.

I don't think they were controversial, but they do seem to me to indicate a different approach than the one that had been used by JP2. It seems to me that, during the past two decades, the Eastern Catholics were seen as a stumbling block, rather than a unifying force, in East/West relations. I mean, the Orthodox never fully accepted stuff like the so-called Balamand Agreement, or those various "Joint Theological Dialogues," but I thought they were at least an indication of the general Catholic position.

[lubeltri]

I think that is what Benedict recognizes, that it has been a stumbling block. A major one, at that. Thus Eastern Catholic-Orthodox relations are a particularly important front in larger ecumenical relations. I think that is what he is trying to say, that Eastern Catholics have to play an important role since they have been such a stumbling block in the past. An important part of this effort is Rome's encouragement of the re-Easternization of the Eastern Catholics since the council. The Eastern traditions need to be respected.

[Asteriktos]

Ahh, yeah I could see that. As short as the story was, I guess I shouldn't have been making assumptions (especially since I haven't kept up with what's been going on lately)!

[Pravoslavbob]

I think that is what Benedict recognizes, that it has been a stumbling block. A major one, at that. Thus Eastern Catholic-Orthodox relations are a particularly important front in larger ecumenical relations. I think that is what he is trying to say, that Eastern Catholics have to play an important role since they have been such a stumbling block in the past. An important part of this effort is Rome's encouragement of the re-Easternization of the Eastern Catholics since the council. The Eastern traditions need to be respected.

I think you're right.  Benedict understands the situation quite well, as far as I can tell.  It's as you said, what is he supposed to do, tell the Eastern Catholics to self-destruct?
The  pope is just between a rock and a hard place here, and making the best of it.  Both John Paul and Benedict have been incredibly supportive of the East in a general sense. 

[ozgeorge]

This just goes to show that the Balamand Agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on.

[Papist]

This just goes to show that the Balamand Agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on.

That so called "agreement" was a bad idea in the first place. In fact, I have been told that the Catholic Church never really officially agreed to it in the end anyway.

[AMM]

That so called "agreement" was a bad idea in the first place. In fact, I have been told that the Catholic Church never really officially agreed to it in the end anyway.

They've officially renounced Uniatism as a model of reconciliation, which means the "bad" idea is the policy, regardless of whether or not the agreement was ratified.

[Papist]

They've officially renounced Uniatism as a model of reconciliation, which means the "bad" idea is the policy, regardless of whether or not the agreement was ratified.

It seems like the matter is more complicated than this. There is a great deal of conflicting information coming from the Vatican on this matter. Is it double speak or is it the the Vatican has put itself in a difficult situation? I mean, on the one hand, the Pope must be a shepherd to his flock in the Eastern Catholic Churches. On the other hand, he is working for unity with the Eastern Orthodox. In my humble opinion, the Popes need not put themselves in these situations. It is clear that the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church are not coming into communion with each other anytime soon. For this reason, I think that the Pope would better serve his flock and the world by tending to the Eastern Catholic Churches instead and working for doctrinal unity among the various sui juri Churches, than by trying to appease a Church that we are not in communion with and a religion that is not ours.
Many Blessings in Christ

[lubeltri]

It seems like the matter is more complicated than this. There is a great deal of conflicting information coming from the Vatican on this matter. Is it double speak or is it the the Vatican has put itself in a difficult situation? I mean, on the one hand, the Pope must be a shepherd to his flock in the Eastern Catholic Churches. On the other hand, he is working for unity with the Eastern Orthodox. In my humble opinion, the Popes need not put themselves in these situations. It is clear that the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church are not coming into communion with each other anytime soon. For this reason, I think that the Pope would better serve his flock and the world by tending to the Eastern Catholic Churches instead and working for doctrinal unity among the various sui juri Churches, than by trying to appease a Church that we are not in communion with and a religion that is not ours.
Many Blessings in Christ

Working for unity with the East is an irrevocable commitment imposed by both Scripture and the Second Vatican Council. There seems not hope now for reunion anytime soon, but we are still committed to dialogue and reconciliation in the meantime. As God wills it, at some time in the future, a great movement of the Holy Spirit will come and bring us together again. We already feel a great sense of filial affection with our Eastern brethren. They are not a separate religion but brothers in Christ. Restoration of full communion will be God's work. Had we not been so sinfully prideful long ago, we would be together already. The time for pride is long past.

None of this involves compromising the essential elements of our faith.

[francis-christopher]

Working for unity with the East is an irrevocable commitment imposed by both Scripture and the Second Vatican Council. There seems not hope now for reunion anytime soon, but we are still committed to dialogue and reconciliation in the meantime. As God wills it, at some time in the future, a great movement of the Holy Spirit will come and bring us together again. We already feel a great sense of filial affection with our Eastern brethren. They are not a separate religion but brothers in Christ. Restoration of full communion will be God's work. Had we not been so sinfully prideful long ago, we would be together already. The time for pride is long past.

None of this involves compromising the essential elements of our faith.

In nomine Iesu Lubeltri I offer you peace,

I am visiting a local Orthodox Mission in my area to attend the Forefeast of the Nativity tonight. I've been to other Forefeasts and found them to be wonderful. Perhaps other Roman Catholics might show their filial affection by visiting with our Eastern Brothers and Sisters during this very special thing of our Liturgical Year?

I encourage it highly.

Pax Vobiscum

[Papist]

Working for unity with the East is an irrevocable commitment imposed by both Scripture and the Second Vatican Council. There seems not hope now for reunion anytime soon, but we are still committed to dialogue and reconciliation in the meantime. As God wills it, at some time in the future, a great movement of the Holy Spirit will come and bring us together again. We already feel a great sense of filial affection with our Eastern brethren. They are not a separate religion but brothers in Christ. Restoration of full communion will be God's work. Had we not been so sinfully prideful long ago, we would be together already. The time for pride is long past.

None of this involves compromising the essential elements of our faith.

You really think that none of this compromises essential elements of the faith? The entire ecumenical movement is one big compromise. It rests on the premise that the Church is not already one. But the Catholic Churches that she IS the true Church and it is already one. That is compromise #1. Now for compromise #2: Lately, leaders of the Church have been referring to the eastern orthodox as the "other lung" of the Church. This smacks of branch theory which is also contrary to the teachings of the Church. Finally compromise #3: when his Holiness was still a Cardinal, he said that we cannot expect the Eastern Orthodox to accept any doctrinal formulations made after the schism. So, in sense we throw out the objective truth of the Immaculate Conception, the Infallibility and universal jurisdiction of the Pope, etc. You see, although we should be evangelising the East but not compromising our faith. Rather than trying to please the Eastern Orthodox at the expense of our Eastern Catholic brethren, he should first focus on those in his care.
Many Blessings in Christ,
Chris

[AMM]

Papist, I'm beginning to believe you're secretly Orthodox.  Come on, fess up.

[Papist]

Papist, I'm beginning to believe you're secretly Orthodox.  Come on, fess up.

LOL. You got me. Just kidding. I was born a Papist, I will die a Papist. LOL

[cothrige]

LOL. You got me. Just kidding. I was born a Papist, I will die a Papist. LOL

But, isn't that orthodox? 

Patrick

[Papist]

But, isn't that orthodox? 

Patrick

Another excellent point from Patrick.

[AMM]

LOL. You got me. Just kidding. I was born a Papist, I will die a Papist. LOL

What, you haven't been paying attention!  We have our own Pope! 

[Papist]

What, you haven't been paying attention!  We have our own Pope! 

Oh, yeah. The Ecumenical Patriarch. LOL. Just kidding. Or is it Pope Shenuda III of the Oriental Orthodox? LOL

[GiC]

Oh, yeah. The Ecumenical Patriarch. LOL. Just kidding. Or is it Pope Shenuda III of the Oriental Orthodox? LOL

His All-Holiness who is the Archbishop of the Most Holy City of St. Constantine, the New Rome and the New Jerusalem, and Patriarch of the Ecumene. Why would he diminish his stature by taking on such a lowly title as 'pope'?

[Papist]

His All-Holiness who is the Archbishop of the Most Holy City of St. Constantine, the New Rome and the New Jerusalem, and Patriarch of the Ecumene. Why would he diminish his stature by taking on such a lowly title as 'pope'?

LOL. Good Point. Pope does not even do justice to His Holiness the Patriarch of the West (even though that title is not on the books anymore), Bishop of Rome, the Ecumenical Pontiff, Servant of the Servants of God, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the province of Rome. Supreme Pontiff, Sovereing of the state of Vatican City, Vicar of the Apostolic See, and the Vicar of Christ.

[cothrige]

LOL. Good Point. Pope does not even do justice to His Holiness the Patriarch of the West (even though that title is not on the books anymore), Bishop of Rome, the Ecumenical Pontiff, Servant of the Servants of God, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the province of Rome. Supreme Pontiff, Sovereing of the state of Vatican City, Vicar of the Apostolic See, and the Vicar of Christ.

Well, in all sincerity and fairness I think we have to keep in mind that Pope really doesn't have its roots in being a title so much.  It is a bit more familiar than that meaning simply father.  As for titles, and those things close to it, I have always thought Servus Servorum Dei (Servant of the Servants of God) was the most telling and meaningful.

Patrick

[lubeltri]

LOL. Good Point. Pope does not even do justice to His Holiness the Patriarch of the West (even though that title is not on the books anymore), Bishop of Rome, the Ecumenical Pontiff, Servant of the Servants of God, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the province of Rome. Supreme Pontiff, Sovereing of the state of Vatican City, Vicar of the Apostolic See, and the Vicar of Christ.

At the Byzantine rite church I went to today, I heard the priest and deacon commemorate "our Ecumenical Pontiff, the Bishop of Rome" twice. It was pretty awesome.

[francis-christopher]

At the Byzantine rite church I went to today, I heard the priest and deacon commemorate "our Ecumenical Pontiff, the Bishop of Rome" twice. It was pretty awesome.

In nomine Iesu, Lubeltri I offer you continued peace and much filial affection,

Are you speaking of a Byzantine Catholic Parish?

BTW, I wish you a very Merry Christmas.

Pax Vobiscum

[lubeltri]

In nomine Iesu, Lubeltri I offer you continued peace and much filial affection,

Are you speaking of a Byzantine Catholic Parish?

BTW, I wish you a very Merry Christmas.

Pax Vobiscum

No, I wasn't. (Great collective gasp)

Yes, I was

A blessed Christmas to you as well, Francis.

[The young fogey]

Just a few thoughts...

The Pope is probably not being two-faced. As lubeltri said he can't and won't push the Eastern Catholics out of his church - theologically for him that would make no sense.

What's being rejected consistently now as a model of reunion is using the Eastern Catholic churches as missions in Orthodox countries to snag individual conversions instead of top-level ecumenical talks aiming at corporate reunion (which from Rome's POV means 'submit to the Pope', a kind of rehash of Ferrara-Florence, but arguments about the papacy are beyond the scope of this thread and some of them probably go over my head).

I think what's meant is now that the Eastern Catholic churches exist they should delatinise and instead be showplaces of, for example, what Orthodoxy with a Pope would look like.

I'm not arguing for or against that, simply trying to explain where Rome might be coming from.

[A Sombra]

lubeltri wrote:

  "For much progress to occur, the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox are going to have to bury their historical, political and ethnic resentments."

First of all, the "progress" spoken of is not "progress" at all as far as the Orthodox are concerned. Most Orthodox, beyond the bishops of the Ecumenical Patriarchate who seek to be in the news all the time to often their position in Turkey, and those who are far removed from orthodox Tradition, are NOT interested in any "progress" that "unites" Orthodoxy with Rome; simply not interested!
 
The Orthodox have to "bury" all these "historical resentments," such as apostasy from Orthodoxy to save one's life or prosper at the hands of the Polish Pan while the Orthodox were being martyred wholesale! Zealots like Josaphat Kuntsevich mertyring the Orthodox, and refusing to bury the bodies, saying, "let wild dogs eat them!" It is difficult to get over such "resentments," if they can really be seen as such, when the authors of the horrors are honored by previous Popes, and prayers are offered up to such "saints" as Josaphat. Perhaps the Orthodox can also see the light and pray to Josaphat?? Maybe Cardinal Stepinac, too. Maybe you should suggest that to the local Serbian priest . . .

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