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« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2007, 03:31:01 PM »

You can't tell me this doesn't make you laugh:

"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade on high and said, 'O, Lord, bless this thy Holy Hand Grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large chu---"
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« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2007, 03:40:19 PM »

Arghhh...where is my beloved shot glass & Patron

Pásamelo a mí también, hermano...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2007, 03:50:18 PM »

Amdetsion

"Consequently we must be conversant with poets, with historians, with orators, indeed with all men who may further our soul's salvation... If, then, there is any affinity between the two literatures, a knowledge of them should be useful to us in our search for truth; if not, the comparison, by emphasizing the contrast, will be of no small service in strengthening our regard for the better one." - Basil the Great, Address to Young Men on the Right Use of Greek Literature, 2-3

"We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably [before Christ came] are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them." - Justin Martyr, First Apology, 46

Are Basil and Justin the type of people you meant to be hitting with your anti-intellectual flailing? Or perhaps you meant to hit the numerous Church Fathers who were so respectful of Greek thought that they had come up with a theory that the Greeks had taken their ideas from Moses and the Jews?
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« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2007, 04:04:15 PM »

"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade on high and said, 'O, Lord, bless this thy Holy Hand Grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large chu---"

---"skip a bit, brother."   Wink
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« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2007, 04:33:15 PM »

 Grin
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 04:35:13 PM by Landon77 » Logged

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« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2007, 04:34:17 PM »

 Cheesy

"And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."
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« Reply #141 on: January 18, 2007, 04:34:49 PM »

"Now did the Lord say, 'First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the number of the counting, be reached, then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naught in my sight, shall snuff it.'"


Hey! You beat me!
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« Reply #142 on: January 18, 2007, 04:35:46 PM »

I changed it.
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« Reply #143 on: January 18, 2007, 04:37:37 PM »

One!... Two!... Five!

I have to go watch this now.
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« Reply #144 on: January 19, 2007, 12:15:26 AM »

Personally, I like the quote fom Herodotus. The quote from the Muslim? about loving God for Himself is also very wise in it's essence even if he failed to apply it correctly in the particulars of his life. But it may be that I am too easily impressed- I also saw some wisdom in the Mae West quote............

  Shouldn't we quote copiously from any source that mirrors wisdom and truth? The Fathers quote from a lot of heterodox sources to illustrate their points. Even St. Paul quoted pagan Greek poets in the New Testament.......

In Christ,
Rd. David
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« Reply #145 on: January 19, 2007, 12:16:50 PM »

Asteriktos,  greekischristian

Read my post I said:

"ITS MY PERSONNEL CHOICE"

I then drew my conclusions with the preface "I RECOMMEND".

Quoting other writters particularly the pagan Greeks is up to you.

greekischristian you are well within your right to quote some Godless muslim. You could have just as well quoted Charles Manson or Hitler and it would not really change my point at all. (I did not read your muslim quote of course)

I have heard people quote the rancid writtings of bigomists and racists to my face; sometimes not knowing where the quote or thought actually came from. Some people (you may have seen on TV news) have spoken weird quotes and phrases in public not knowing or understanding the real intent of and source of the phraseology or quote and ended up fired or having to resign public office for this kind of senseless error. These errors created public outrage in many cases. This is becoming more prevelent world wide but is common in America which is built on a racist system so it is ripe for this kind of error in judgement.

Who we quote clearly creates a binding relationship with you and that person and that persons conditions and beleifs by association. As an Orthodox Christian I do not want to find myself in this situation. SO I CHOOSE not to follow the thoughts of pagans. I may read modern writters from time to time pagan or otherwise. But I will never quote them within a religious scenario or condition. FOR ME it is irresponsible and foolish. There is a time and place for everything. (Who made that quote?...I do not know.)

For those of you who are happy relating to people outside the faith for your religious guidance that is your choice. Protestants have been doing this from their heretical, recent beginnings. So why not. Suit yourself. Do your thing ( Who made those quotes?)

I simply "recommended" that such is not a good practice.

Remember St. Paul said..."I speak by permission".

He was given authority directly from God to remove the curse of sin from unGodly men and place the crown of glory upon them. He did that.

St. Paul as for all the apostles are justified in all their actions.

If a Bishop or priest quotes a pagan he is justified as a servant of God in the tradition of the apostles. if he is wrong than he is responsible for whatever sin he causes others to commit from his errors.

What are you doing quoting pagans now on this thread?  Remember this thread is challenging the "orthoodxy" of this site.

Are the you the type that feels that you are a new age saint or Bishop of the Holy Church?

You all take it lightly that you must be conscious of what you say.

Next I am going to post significant scriptural readings and writtings from the Church fathers that support this critical issue. But I will not post it on this thread.

Peace from  God

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« Reply #146 on: January 19, 2007, 12:31:06 PM »

Fr. Deacon,

With all due respect, your reccomendations came off as calling the use of quotations from pre-Christian pagan Greeks as sinful.

As greekischristian demonstrated, our holy Fathers Basil and Justin, among many others, lauded the use of these philosophers in the search for Truth.  Are their assertions sinful, as well?

Again, you can decide to keep them out of your defense of the Truth all you want, but to lambast others who are only following the lead of our venerable Fathers for doing so might give those outside of the Church the wrong idea, don't you think?

And how are we to lead those to the Truth when we argue amongst ourselves regarding a practice that is orthodox?
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« Reply #147 on: January 19, 2007, 12:52:40 PM »

Fr. Deacon,

With all due respect, your reccomendations came off as calling the use of quotations from pre-Christian pagan Greeks as sinful.

As greekischristian demonstrated, our holy Fathers Basil and Justin, among many others, lauded the use of these philosophers in the search for Truth.  Are their assertions sinful, as well?

Again, you can decide to keep them out of your defense of the Truth all you want, but to lambast others who are only following the lead of our venerable Fathers for doing so might give those outside of the Church the wrong idea, don't you think?

And how are we to lead those to the Truth when we argue amongst ourselves regarding a practice that is orthodox?

The Church fathers are justified as i said.

We are to adhere to the intent of thier actions.

Is that clear enough?

They are in a world full of wickedness they are using what is at thier disposal to serve an end.

If we quote like them we msut have the same end.

Do you see this?

So don't quote who St Basil quoted .... quote what he taught from who he quoted.

Is that confusing?

I hope not.


Fr. Deacon Amde Tsion
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« Reply #148 on: January 19, 2007, 01:06:28 PM »

"ITS MY PERSONNEL CHOICE"

I then drew my conclusions with the preface "I RECOMMEND".

And we responded to your bad recommendation. These forums are for discussion, not pontificating.

Quote
greekischristian you are well within your right to quote some Godless muslim. You could have just as well quoted Charles Manson or Hitler and it would not really change my point at all.

I've been known to quote Hitler, and quite frequenlty reference Goebbels.

Quote
(I did not read your muslim quote of course)

LMAO...if you didn't even read it, how can you object to it...Rabia has much wisdom in many of her writings, I would recommend them to you.

Quote
I have heard people quote the rancid writtings of bigomists and racists to my face; sometimes not knowing where the quote or thought actually came from. Some people (you may have seen on TV news) have spoken weird quotes and phrases in public not knowing or understanding the real intent of and source of the phraseology or quote and ended up fired or having to resign public office for this kind of senseless error. These errors created public outrage in many cases. This is becoming more prevelent world wide but is common in America which is built on a racist system so it is ripe for this kind of error in judgement.

So you support ad hominem based attacks? Focus on the content rather than the source, wisdom can come from the most unexpected of places. Roll Eyes

Quote
Who we quote clearly creates a binding relationship with you and that person and that persons conditions and beleifs by association. As an Orthodox Christian I do not want to find myself in this situation. SO I CHOOSE not to follow the thoughts of pagans. I may read modern writters from time to time pagan or otherwise. But I will never quote them within a religious scenario or condition. FOR ME it is irresponsible and foolish.

Or rather it is an acknowledgement that wisdom can be found throughout all of creation and not merely in the context of one religious sect.

Quote
There is a time and place for everything. (Who made that quote?...I do not know.)

It's a paraphrasing of Ecclesiastes.

Quote
For those of you who are happy relating to people outside the faith for your religious guidance that is your choice. Protestants have been doing this from their heretical, recent beginnings. So why not. Suit yourself. Do your thing ( Who made those quotes?)

Actually the protestants tend to advocate sola scriptura...they were amongst the least likely to cite ancient sources in their defence.

Quote
What are you doing quoting pagans now on this thread?  Remember this thread is challenging the "orthoodxy" of this site.

So we quote pagan philosophers as did the fathers of the Church, and our methodology remains the same as that of the Fathers.

Quote
Are the you the type that feels that you are a new age saint or Bishop of the Holy Church?

No reason to stop doing theology in the Church...a failure to evolve and develop theology will simply relegate the church to irrelevance. I see no reason why the faithful should not read the ancient sources, Christian, pagan, and otherwise, as well as later sources in order that they may learn and develop the theology of the Church.
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« Reply #149 on: January 19, 2007, 04:11:25 PM »

greekischristian;

Excellent post. (And the wise and moving quote by Rabia al-Adawiyya brought a lump to my throat.)

I would also like to add that the Church Fathers were not always Church Fathers. They are only such because of the Church's recognition of their wisdom. They didn't wake up one day and say to themselves, "Now that I am a Church Father, I am justified in quoting whomever I like."

If we (the Church) are intelligent enough to recognise the Church Fathers as a source of wisdom, then we too are justified in quoting from whomever we consider is speaking in wisdom. The source of all wisdom, all truth is the same source; for Christian, Muslim, pagan and whomever.
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« Reply #150 on: January 19, 2007, 09:51:20 PM »

Amdetsion,

I have observed that you are basically trying to get people to "behave better" and be more serious in their faith and respect for God. 

There were people who were "Fools for Christ" as already mentioned.  This is an established "type" of saint in the church...so are you saying that their actions are no longer holy because they wern't "serious"?? 

You never did responde to many people's posts about the Wedding at Canaan and the miracle there.  How does this impress upon your opinion? 

Most of the quotes quoted about drinking being bad were from the OT, and Christ said that he came to fulfill the Law, so maybe his fulfillment was to bring us into a new era of enjoying wine?  How can you say for sure what was His will at Canaan?

Also, God is Love, if we decide to love him by enjoying ourselves who's to say we are being sacriligious?  You and ascetics?  Tons of desert fathers drank wine, are we more holy than them?  There are TONS of stories of saints being shown "ordinary" people who are sinners like the rest of us, but are shown to be holier than the monks, who spend their whole lives in asceticism.  So who is to say that one way is better than the other? 

I think that we can adore God and respect him in the way that you are saying, and still enjoy life and the promise of Resurrection, without being tea-toters (I think that's the right phrase). 

Pastorally speaking, if you were put in a situation where you had to minister to construction workers who smoke, drink, curse, make lude jokes about everything including God, what would you do?  Cry out that they are being rediculous?  How pastoral is that?  Rather, I think we are called to come to their level.  That doesn't mean that we have to do what they do, but we have to approach them in love. 

Anyway, i've kind of gone off topic, let me know what you think about any of these things.  I hope i've been clear...maybe not though...
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« Reply #151 on: January 19, 2007, 10:31:59 PM »

.....without being tea-toters (I think that's the right phrase). 

Teetotal "pledged to total abstinence from intoxicating drink," 1834, possibly formed from total with a reduplication of the initial T- for emphasis (T-totally "totally," not in an abstinence sense, is recorded in Kentucky dialect from 1832 and is possibly older in Irish-Eng.)."

Teetotaler "Webster (1847) calls teetotaler "a cant word formed in England."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=teetotal

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« Reply #152 on: January 20, 2007, 12:38:05 AM »

serb1389

I was more than certain that I had made my last post on this thread. But your post has compelled me to respond.

I think you were clear.

Yes I want people who are orthodox to be an example of holiness in the world. That inlcudes me also.

I here so much silliness from people who claim to be christian. Most of the people I am speaking of do not even believe in the Holy Virgin Mary Mother of God. These same people read all kinds of new age writting and follow allot of ancient pagan thinking (unwittingly). They quote Herodotus and Socraties like they were saints. I always feel sad for these people.

When I hear orthodox christians doing the same thing it shocks me.

Maybe I am nieve; but I thought that we follow the teaching in the church not outside.

I read the various responses to my posts and find that the issue is bigger than anything that I have learned to say.

I have run out of words.

I think people deep down really understand the point I am making.

The Miracle of Cana which Ethiopia celebrates this Sunday a thing of God.

Changing water into wine as the first Miracle of His ministry is for us today not an excuse for drinking. It is an act of mercy provided through the direct intercession of the Holy Virgin Mary Mother of God to the church.

Christ ushered in the era of mercy at Cana that culminated at the Cross of Calvary. Between these two points mercy is revealed to man. Gods mercy not mans mercy.

In Ethiopia after Cana is celebrated we have a fast a few weeks later called 'Nenawi' or Ninevah. Ninevah was a major example of Mercy from God. The whole nation was saved from its sins due to the rightious plea of Jonah. We then begin lent or as we say 'Hudadeh' or 'Abeyeh Tsome'. Ethiopia fasts for 57 days.

The point here is the era of mercy from Cana to Ninevah to Calvery.

The point of the wine at Cana has little to do with "wine" or drinking. It is a powerful and Holy theological matter which must be understood which I have only slighty touched on.

Sadly some people only see the wine drinking.

Happy Epiphany day (Today in Ethiopia)

Peace from God

Fr. Deacon Amde Tsion
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« Reply #153 on: January 20, 2007, 12:45:46 AM »

Quote
They quote Herodotus and Socraties like they were saints.

Unlike the Gospel writers, who quote Jewish oral tradition as though authoritative, or Jude, who quotes an Apocryphal books (perhaps several, actually) as though authoritative.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #154 on: January 20, 2007, 04:12:37 AM »

Quote
or Jude, who quotes an Apocryphal books (perhaps several, actually) as though authoritative.


Well that example wasn't the best to use, considering that the Book of Enoch (which the Epistle of Jude alludes to) is in fact authoritative within the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #155 on: January 20, 2007, 04:33:41 AM »

Very true, though I doubt very much that Amdetsion cares, since those Ethiopians aren't in communion with him, so for him it's a difficulty Wink
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« Reply #156 on: January 21, 2007, 04:55:42 AM »

Well Matthew if thats the way you feel I 'd recommend you never come up north to Seattle for any church service on Pascha or Nativity........


















Or Youth Group.....









Or Feast Days..........










Or Bazaars, we drink alot there too............





Better yet, just stay where your at.............
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« Reply #157 on: January 22, 2007, 01:14:24 AM »

Very true, though I doubt very much that Amdetsion cares, since those Ethiopians aren't in communion with him, so for him it's a difficulty Wink

Asteriktos:

I am an Ethiopian!

I am an arch deacon in the Church of Ethiopia; Abuna Paulos Patriarch.

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« Reply #158 on: January 22, 2007, 01:25:04 AM »



Well that example wasn't the best to use, considering that the Book of Enoch (which the Epistle of Jude alludes to) is in fact authoritative within the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

The Book of Enoch is one of the canonical books of the Holy Church. We refer to this book and other so-called apocryphal books so labeled by the west just as the early fathers did.

Hey!
The auto spell check is great. Thanks.

My spelling is horrible and I am usually to lazy to manually check.
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« Reply #159 on: January 22, 2007, 01:28:52 AM »

Justinian;

Sorry to here about all the drinking.

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« Reply #160 on: January 22, 2007, 02:08:21 AM »

Quote
I am an Ethiopian!

Well I admit that I was wrong for assuming that you were Eastern Orthodox. Enoch would be a bad example. So now we can move on to Jude quoting the Assumption of Moses (which no one accepts), or maybe some of the other references to Jewish tradition or Greek writers. Nah, nevermind, don't worry about it. Cool
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« Reply #161 on: January 22, 2007, 05:01:25 PM »

I would also like to add that the Church Fathers were not always Church Fathers. They are only such because of the Church's recognition of their wisdom. They didn't wake up one day and say to themselves, "Now that I am a Church Father, I am justified in quoting whomever I like."

As opposed to, say, members of Orthodox fora.....  Grin  Wink
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« Reply #162 on: January 22, 2007, 05:03:46 PM »

As opposed to, say, members of Orthodox fora.....  Grin  Wink
LOL! Cheesy
Funny and insightful!
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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Riddikulus
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« Reply #163 on: January 22, 2007, 08:37:02 PM »

As opposed to, say, members of Orthodox fora.....  Grin  Wink

LOL - You said that; not me!  Cheesy
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 08:37:41 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
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