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Matthew777
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« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2007, 04:07:25 PM »

I can't imagine a teetotaling God who would institute a Eucharist of consecrated wine. 

There is a difference between the drinking of small amounts of wine in a religious ceremony, or the moderate drinking of low alcohol wine during a feast, and drunkenness. That Jesus said that the wedding guests will fast once the bridegroom is no longer with them implies that, with him gone, we are to fast and abstain from alcohol. Orthodox monks take the vow of the Nazarite, refusing to cut their hair, and abstaining from strong drink.
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« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2007, 04:11:42 PM »

You're living in a self-constructed bubble, Matthew. I've been there. Break out of it, man!
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« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2007, 05:02:12 PM »

You're living in a self-constructed bubble, Matthew. I've been there. Break out of it, man!

Good advice!

Matthew,

You have received a lot of great responses; some good-natured ribbings and some with extra good advice. You are much too young to be so stuffy. Wait another 40 years and try again. By God's grace, you might not want to. Grin

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« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2007, 08:42:19 PM »

You're living in a self-constructed bubble, Matthew. I've been there. Break out of it, man!

Alcoholism is genetic and both sides of my family have a history of alcoholism. I'd rather find some other way to have fun than be part of that scene. What you consider a "teetotaler," I call someone who reveres the temple of God.

My point in starting this thread is that one cannot live outside a bubble, in the real world, on an internet forum.
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« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2007, 08:53:45 PM »

Alcoholism is genetic and both sides of my family have a history of alcoholism. I'd rather find some other way to have fun than be part of that scene. What you consider a "teetotaler," I call someone who reveres the temple of God.

And my family's in large part Scots-Irish, so what's your point?
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« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2007, 09:08:40 PM »

Alcoholism is genetic and both sides of my family have a history of alcoholism. I'd rather find some other way to have fun than be part of that scene. What you consider a "teetotaler," I call someone who reveres the temple of God.

Matthew,

And certainly, it is your right to abstain from alcohol; whatever your reason. However, it's not appropriate to reconstruct history and, in the process, invent an accommodating Christ to conform with the misconstruction.
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« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2007, 11:07:18 PM »

Both my grandfathers were alcoholics. One grandfather eventually cleaned himself up, the other abandoned his family, lived on the streets, and eventually died of cirrhosis of the liver. My stepfather was a severe alcoholic, abused my mother and us, and eventually committed suicide.

As with all of God's gifts, alcohol can be abused. Doesn't make it evil in itself. I enjoy alcohol in moderate quantities---I used to have drinks and theological discussion with my priest. I don't see how Jesus would be upset---he drank quite a bit of it during the Last Supper.
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« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2007, 12:57:29 AM »


Posted on: Today at 10:07:18 PMPosted by: lubeltri
As with all of God's gifts, alcohol can be abused. Doesn't make it evil in itself. I enjoy alcohol in moderate quantities---I used to have drinks and theological discussion with my priest. I don't see how Jesus would be upset---he drank quite a bit of it during the Last Supper.

These are the most blasphemous words I have encountered on this Site yet. I pray for your soul.

I pray that nobody visits this thread and reads this post and think it has something to do with Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2007, 01:00:40 AM »

These are the most blasphemous words I have encountered on this Site yet. I pray for your soul.

I pray that nobody visits this thread and reads this post and think it has something to do with Orthodoxy.

Get over yourself...Christ drank, heck, Christ got drunk...deal with it. As I said before, I dont trust anyone more pious than Christ.
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« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2007, 01:01:01 AM »

Talk about an over-reaction!

What exactly was so "blasphemous" about that post?
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« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2007, 01:01:32 AM »

Quote
These are the most blasphemous words I have encountered on this Site yet.

Sheesh, I must be slacking. I'll try harder. Grin
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« Reply #101 on: January 18, 2007, 01:01:39 AM »

Quote
Christ got drunk

Okay, now that is blasphemous.
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« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2007, 01:02:49 AM »

Yes, I remember you bringing this up a while ago. First off, the figure in question is not really a "theologian", he was just a priest expressing his personal opinion (our system of electing priests is vastly different to that of the EO's--having a theological degree is not pre-requisite).

True... The book did have the approval of the Pope, but that's neither here nor there, as it doesn't imply his stating that it is dogmatically binding or whatnot.

I suppose my response was more to the others in the thread, but I quoted Thomas' to propose a theory for his rejection to alchohol that Thomas alludes to.
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« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2007, 01:05:54 AM »

Posted on: Today at 10:07:18 PMPosted by: lubeltri
As with all of God's gifts, alcohol can be abused. Doesn't make it evil in itself. I enjoy alcohol in moderate quantities---I used to have drinks and theological discussion with my priest. I don't see how Jesus would be upset---he drank quite a bit of it during the Last Supper.

These are the most blasphemous words I have encountered on this Site yet. I pray for your soul.

In what way are these words blasphmeous? To have ever have partaken of the Passover, Christ would have had to have drank at least four cups of honest-to-goodness wine. The Seder required it.
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« Reply #104 on: January 18, 2007, 01:07:50 AM »

EkhristosAnesti

You walked into this.

I am surprised that you would not see the wickedness in Lubeltris' post.

But no soon as yuo agreed the the point of his remarks were made clear.
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« Reply #105 on: January 18, 2007, 01:10:22 AM »

Riddikulus

Stop kidding yourself.

You can't see through 'HOW' the point was made?

The way he put it?

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« Reply #106 on: January 18, 2007, 01:14:00 AM »

Asteriktos

Don't be so hard on yourself.

I read your posts.

You are doing just fine already.
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« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2007, 01:14:24 AM »

Amdetsion,

Christ drank wine--fact.

Christ got drunk? I don't see how that's possible, since He is sinless and the Scriptures testify to the fact that drunkenness is a sin.

However, I didn't take lubeltri's post as implying that Christ ever got drunk (though he can correct me on that one if he so chooses). Was your response to him based upon interpreting it in that manner, or do you just have a problem with the idea that the consumption of alcohol per se is not inherently sinful?
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« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2007, 01:19:09 AM »

EkhristosAnesti

I read through Lubeltri's sarcasm.

He was intent on serving up Christ' consumption of wine as a common act. Thus drunkness was possible.

You and I both know that this kind of diatribe is loose and wicked
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« Reply #109 on: January 18, 2007, 01:26:52 AM »

Riddikulus

Stop kidding yourself.

You can't see through 'HOW' the point was made?

The way he put it?

OK, let's assume that I am kidding myself. Making that statment merely allows you to dodge my question, doesn't it?  Grin

Again I ask. How/why is the post blasphemous. I would appreciate your clarification on why you make such an ascertion.
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« Reply #110 on: January 18, 2007, 01:29:50 AM »

Sheesh, I must be slacking. I'll try harder. Grin

I just noticed this. LOL
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« Reply #111 on: January 18, 2007, 01:37:10 AM »

EkhristosAnesti

I read through Lubeltri's sarcasm.

He was intent on serving up Christ' consumption of wine as a common act. Thus drunkness was possible.

You and I both know that this kind of diatribe is loose and wicked

Christ's consumption of wine was a common act. Wine was the common beverage of the time. It was served at every evening meal, probably more frequently. Are you implying that Christ behaved out of the norm and sort to avoid a cup of wine with an evening meal because of the possibility of drunkeness?
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« Reply #112 on: January 18, 2007, 01:40:37 AM »

Any use of Christ's name and his Holiness in a common way is no good. This is glib use of the Holy faith. It does not raise the beauty of God above the normal.

It is like how a protestant would speak. They speak like they do not fear God.

I hope you do not want scripture?

If so I will gladly load scriptural readings in tomorrow.
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« Reply #113 on: January 18, 2007, 01:42:56 AM »

I give up. Roll Eyes I'm going to make inquiries about becoming a buddhist.
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« Reply #114 on: January 18, 2007, 01:44:56 AM »

Riddikulus

No..

I am saying that true believers are very much removed from measuring Christ in simple terms.

We know Him only by His greatness.

What was common about Him thus takes on non-common feel and meaning.

Its respect.
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« Reply #115 on: January 18, 2007, 01:49:10 AM »

Buhdist!!

Finish learning orthodoxy.

Thats the real challenge.

Learn to fear your creature.

Thats also a real challenge.
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« Reply #116 on: January 18, 2007, 01:52:53 AM »


However, I didn't take lubeltri's post as implying that Christ ever got drunk (though he can correct me on that one if he so chooses).

Of course not. Christ did not get drunk and would have disapproved of drunkenness.

I enjoy alcohol, but I am not so silly as to drink enough to where I lose control. I drink for the taste, not for the intoxication.

To be honest, I did not drink at all until four years ago, when I was 22. I hated the stuff.
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« Reply #117 on: January 18, 2007, 01:55:19 AM »

Posted on: Today at 10:07:18 PMPosted by: lubeltri
As with all of God's gifts, alcohol can be abused. Doesn't make it evil in itself. I enjoy alcohol in moderate quantities---I used to have drinks and theological discussion with my priest. I don't see how Jesus would be upset---he drank quite a bit of it during the Last Supper.

These are the most blasphemous words I have encountered on this Site yet. I pray for your soul.

I pray that nobody visits this thread and reads this post and think it has something to do with Orthodoxy.

Have you ever been to a seder? Over the course of the ceremonial meal, Jews take quite a few sips of wine. Not enough to get drunk, of course, but significantly more than the amount of consecrated wine we receive every Sunday.
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« Reply #118 on: January 18, 2007, 01:56:04 AM »

Buhdist!!

Finish learning orthodoxy.

Thats the real challenge.

Learn to fear your creature.

Thats also a real challenge.

It's Buddhist!
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« Reply #119 on: January 18, 2007, 01:57:57 AM »

Have you ever been to a seder? Over the course of the ceremonial meal, Jews take quite a few sips of wine. Not enough to get drunk, of course, but significantly more than the amount of consecrated wine we receive every Sunday.

I think you might be wasting your time and energy. Become a buddhist - I'm considering it. (Just kidding.)
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« Reply #120 on: January 18, 2007, 02:02:01 AM »

Amdetsion,

Thank you for praying for me. God knows, we all need it.

Christ, 100% God, also become 100% one of us. We should rejoice in that fact. Of course he drank wine. Plenty of it. That's what you drank when clean water was not always available.
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« Reply #121 on: January 18, 2007, 02:10:35 AM »

If you want to see some real blasphemy, Amdetsion, consider one of the wedding scenes in Four Weddings and a Funeral, where the plastered Anglican minister blesses the couple "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spigot."
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« Reply #122 on: January 18, 2007, 12:18:58 PM »

If you want to see some real blasphemy, Amdetsion, consider one of the wedding scenes in Four Weddings and a Funeral, where the plastered Anglican minister blesses the couple "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spigot."

Actually, Rowan Atkinson's character was not plastered, nor even under the influence of any alcohol, but incredibly nervous.  It was his first wedding and he was so scared of screwing something up, he actually did.

If you're going to cite something as an example, make sure you're citing it correctly.

That is all.


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« Reply #123 on: January 18, 2007, 01:46:18 PM »

It's Buddhist!

Correction noted.
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« Reply #124 on: January 18, 2007, 01:49:34 PM »

If you want to see some real blasphemy, Amdetsion, consider one of the wedding scenes in Four Weddings and a Funeral, where the plastered Anglican minister blesses the couple "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spigot."

Why would anybody watch this stuff?

I avoid ALL the religious comedy.

Christianity is not funny.
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« Reply #125 on: January 18, 2007, 01:52:51 PM »

Why would anybody watch this stuff?

I avoid ALL the religious comedy.

Christianity is not funny.

Well maybe they were watching the movie and didn't KNOW that a blasphemous scene was coming up. I don't think it's possible to live in the West and walk down the street without witnessing inappropriate things. You make it out like a Christian can live in a bubble always making black or white choices.

Anastasios
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« Reply #126 on: January 18, 2007, 01:58:18 PM »

Why would anybody watch this stuff?

I avoid ALL the religious comedy.

Christianity is not funny.

Well, I haven't been struck by lightning yet...so apparently God does have a sense of humour.
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« Reply #127 on: January 18, 2007, 01:59:36 PM »

Well maybe they were watching the movie and didn't KNOW that a blasphemous scene was coming up. I don't think it's possible to live in the West and walk down the street without witnessing inappropriate things. You make it out like a Christian can live in a bubble always making black or white choices.

Anastasios


O.K. That happens.

Why would this kind of sacralege be repeated then?

Is not enough that as you say a person is caught off guard with the sceen on the show?
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« Reply #128 on: January 18, 2007, 02:02:41 PM »

Well, I haven't been struck by lightning yet...so apparently God does have a sense of humour.

For your sake I pray you are right.

To me; to take the chance is foolish win or loose.

Its not worth risking.
 
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Amdetsion
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HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #129 on: January 18, 2007, 02:05:04 PM »

Are we still on the subject?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 02:05:27 PM by Amdetsion » Logged

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Jakub
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« Reply #130 on: January 18, 2007, 02:05:54 PM »

Arghhh...where is my beloved shot glass & Patron

JB
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An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
GiC
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« Reply #131 on: January 18, 2007, 02:10:07 PM »

For your sake I pray you are right.

To me; to take the chance is foolish win or loose.

Its not worth risking.

Sorry, I dont buy pascal's wager...If God were as sadistic and cold as you suggest, and even if I knew with absolute certainty that this was the case, I'd simply give him the two fingers (or palm of the hand, or middle finger, or sole of the shoe, or whatever your culture believes in a offensive gesture) and be done with it.

'Far better it is to have a stout heart always and suffer one's share of evils, than to be ever fearing what may happen and never incur a mischance.' -- Herodotus
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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
lubeltri
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« Reply #132 on: January 18, 2007, 02:12:22 PM »

Actually, Rowan Atkinson's character was not plastered, nor even under the influence of any alcohol, but incredibly nervous.  It was his first wedding and he was so scared of screwing something up, he actually did.

If you're going to cite something as an example, make sure you're citing it correctly.

That is all.

Well, I did see it almost 13 years ago. Memory fades.

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Amdetsion
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HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #133 on: January 18, 2007, 03:11:18 PM »

Sorry, I dont buy pascal's wager...If God were as sadistic and cold as you suggest, and even if I knew with absolute certainty that this was the case, I'd simply give him the two fingers (or palm of the hand, or middle finger, or sole of the shoe, or whatever your culture believes in a offensive gesture) and be done with it.

'Far better it is to have a stout heart always and suffer one's share of evils, than to be ever fearing what may happen and never incur a mischance.' -- Herodotus

Absolutely shocking and sad commentary. Truely shocking words.

Herodotus?

How does this person figure into orthodox christianity?

I do not believe he was an Orthodox Christian. So excusement if I ignor his points of view.

I have a hard time agreeing with the thoughts of pagans such as Herodotus no matter how logical or smart they may be.

That's my personnel choice.

It seems that if one orthodox person find it OK to quote the thinking of a pagan or heretic than another should also be allowed to quote the thoughts of Isamic or devil worshippers ( in example) if he feels (somehow) that quoting from such will underline his point during the discourse or discussion on an orthodox subject or condition. Who is to say one is worse than the other?

The virtues of orthodoxy can be confused in such chaos.

We must enrich our discourses and concerns small are large with the beauty of our true faith which comes down to us from our holy fathers. Even if we are in disagreement. Or angry.

Without this we can not be sure that the faith of our fathers is being raised and expoounded upon to increase the faith of the beleivers of the Holy Church. (That is why we are all posting on this forum right?). for me the answer is yes. I have no other purpose when posting on this forum but to try and learn or share the Orthodox teaching, its beauty and faith so that we can live more truely orthodox lives; which of course is preparing for eternity while we live.

Anything else is glib useless talk. Which benefits knowone. This equates to 'idle' chatter. The lord hates such useless speaking and has rendered it "sinful".

So I recommend that orthodox stick with ONLY Orthodox Christian thinkers particularly when the subject or the condition is orthodox in nature and or intent such as this website and forum.

This thread is questioning the "orthodoxy" of this site. Quoting Herodotus may just prove out why this thread was started in the first place.

No offense but I am compelled to ask your orthodox affilliation and background?

Are you a recent convert to the Holy Church? or were you raised up in the Holy Church?

Please email me directly so as not to disturb this thread.

May the Lord protect you and all of us making us a likeness of Himself placing us far away from the matters of this destitute and condemed world.

We wait on the Lord

Fr. Deacon Amde Tsion
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
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« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2007, 03:24:09 PM »

It seems that if one orthodox person find it OK to quote the thinking of a pagan or heretic than another should also be allowed to quote the thoughts of Isamic or devil worshippers ( in example) if he feels (somehow) that quoting from such will underline his point during the discourse or discussion on an orthodox subject or condition. Who is to say one is worse than the other?

Well, if you insist I can quote a moslem as well...though I must give ozgeorge credit for first bringing her to the attention of the forum.

'If I adore You out of fear of Hell, burn me in Hell!
If I adore you out of desire for Paradise,
Lock me out of Paradise.
But if I adore you for Yourself alone,
Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty.'
-- Rabia al-Adawiyya
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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
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