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Author Topic: This is not an Orthodox Christian forum  (Read 14319 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2007, 08:58:35 PM »

Matthew, go have some Jagermeister, vodka, even beer... something, anything!  Cool Come to think of it, I can use this as an excuse to have a drink myself. Cheers!
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« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2007, 09:15:14 PM »

Happy Birthday, Matthew! Grin
21! I remember being 21 (vaguely!)
Many happy returns Matthew!
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« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2007, 09:24:53 PM »

Happy 21st Matthew!!  Here's to you not being able to remember it, if ya catch my drift.  Wink
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« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2007, 09:51:46 PM »

Or the terms "apple" or "monkey" or "civil war".....

"Orthodoxy" refers to a profound mystical and spiritual reality, "apple," "monkey" and "civil war" do not. I'd hope that, as a result of its truth, we'd use the term "Orthodox" less lightly than these other terms.
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« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2007, 10:02:43 PM »

"Orthodoxy" refers to a profound mystical and spiritual reality, "apple," "monkey" and "civil war" do not. I'd hope that, as a result of its truth, we'd use the term "Orthodox" less lightly than these other terms.

the term Orthodox is meaningless insofar as a word cannot represent an uncreated reality.
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« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2007, 10:03:34 PM »

"Orthodoxy" refers to a profound mystical and spiritual reality, "apple," "monkey" and "civil war" do not. I'd hope that, as a result of its truth, we'd use the term "Orthodox" less lightly than these other terms.
And even if people disagree with your assesment and decrees of what is "truth", and even if the world doesn't behave the way you want it to, I still hope you have a Happy Birthday anyway!
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« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2007, 10:04:02 PM »

Happy 21st Matthew!!  Here's to you not being able to remember it, if ya catch my drift.  Wink

I turn 21 on the 18th of January. I do not drink alcohol, and deliberately chose to live in alcohol-free housing. Drunkenness is the desecration of God's temple. I've already experienced premarital sex, and realized that it's not worth compromising the temple of God. (1 Corinthians 6) Therefore, my 21st birthday will be like any other birthday, unremarkable and soon forgotten.
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« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2007, 10:06:02 PM »

the term Orthodox is meaningless insofar as a word cannot represent an uncreated reality.

One could argue that the most fundamental truths of Orthodoxy are uncreated, they have existed eternally in the mind of God. On the other hand, if you are correct, the created reality of Orthodoxy cannot be an internet forum, but something experienced in the real world.
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« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2007, 10:37:53 PM »

I turn 21 on the 18th of January. I do not drink alcohol, and deliberately chose to live in alcohol-free housing. Drunkenness is the desecration of God's temple. I've already experienced premarital sex, and realized that it's not worth compromising the temple of God. (1 Corinthians 6) Therefore, my 21st birthday will be like any other birthday, unremarkable and soon forgotten.

You're lecutring us on what it means to be orthodox and you dont even drink? Give me a break. Roll Eyes Wink
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« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2007, 10:49:30 PM »

You're lecutring us on what it means to be orthodox and you dont even drink? Give me a break. Roll Eyes Wink


Drinking is contrary to Orthodox asceticism.
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« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2007, 10:58:55 PM »

Drinking is contrary to Orthodox asceticism.

Somebody better tell that to the orthodox monastics.
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« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2007, 11:07:19 PM »

Somebody better tell that to the orthodox monastics.

Better yet, tell it to the Lord.  I seem to remember him turning water into wine once everyone was already hammered.
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« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2007, 12:19:04 AM »

Yep...those Benedictines in Europe produce some good ale and other herbal medicinal beverages...like that Chimay Ale...bout 9% alcohol.

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« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2007, 01:09:20 AM »

Yep...those Benedictines in Europe produce some good ale and other herbal medicinal beverages...like that Chimay Ale...bout 9% alcohol.

james

If you are speaking of Roman Catholic monks, that is not Orthodox asceticism.

Luke 15
33 They said to him, Why do the disciples of John always fast and pray, and also those of the Pharisees; but yours eat and drink?
34 He said to them, You cannot make the sons of the wedding feast fast so long as the bridegroom is with them.
35 But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken from them; then they will fast in those days.
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« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2007, 01:53:40 AM »

Better yet, tell it to the Lord.  I seem to remember him turning water into wine once everyone was already hammered.

Very true, and it was good wine as well.

Matthew, I never trust anyone more pious than Jesus.
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« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2007, 01:56:26 AM »

Quote
Drinking is contrary to Orthodox asceticism

You speak as though "Orthodox asceticism" is some monolithic system finished long ago. First, tradition is not just something from the past, you Orthodox living today are also tradition. In other words, five hundred years from now people will see you as part of the tradition. For you to look back to some perceived authoritative period or person or text, as though the present is chopped liver, is to miss the whole point of Orthodoxy. If Orthodox drink today, that's just as valid as if they did or did not drink in some other time and place.

And second, there were works on monasticism, monastics, or asceticism by Basil, John Cassian, Benedict, Aphraates, Athanasius, Sulpitius Severus, Jerome, Mark the Monk, Evagrios, Isaiah the solitary, Diadochus of Photiki, and many other authors (and that is just from a three century period). How many of these works have you read? Do you know that almost every single one of those people would have counselled someone like you to not speak a word on matters of faith and practice? (the only exception I can think of is John Climacus) Do you know that most Orthodox writers have considered talkativeness (e.g., making thousands of posts on a forum) to be a serious sin? I am not saying that you should not post here. I just think you are being rather subjective in 1) what people/works you follow when it comes to deciding what qualifies as asceticism, and 2) which rules you choose to follow and which you choose to ignore.
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« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2007, 02:04:03 AM »

Better yet, tell it to the Lord.  I seem to remember him turning water into wine once everyone was already hammered.

Luke 15
33 They said to him, Why do the disciples of John always fast and pray, and also those of the Pharisees; but yours eat and drink?
34 He said to them, You cannot make the sons of the wedding feast fast so long as the bridegroom is with them.
35 But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken from them; then they will fast in those days.

In Proverbs 23:32  
At the last (wine) bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper.

In Proverbs 31:4  
It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes intoxicating drink.

Isaiah 5:22
Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink.

Isaiah 28:7
But they also have erred through wine, and through intoxicating drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink, they are swallowed up by wine, they are out of the way through intoxicating drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, pressing him to your bottle, even to make him drunk, that you may look on his nakedness!

1Peter 4:3
For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in…drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.

Ephesians 5:17-18
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit.

Galatians 5
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and all such things; those who practice these things, as I have told you before and I say to you now, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 13
13 Let us walk decently, as in the daylight; not in clamor and drunkenness, not in the practice of immorality, not in envy and strife.

I wonder how alcoholic the wine was that Jesus drank, perhaps barely at all. God does not contradict Himself.

Peace.
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« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2007, 02:08:12 AM »

I wonder how alcoholic the wine was that Jesus drank, perhaps barely at all.

Peace.

Ever consider the mormon church? You might fit in quite well.
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« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2007, 02:12:20 AM »

Matthew 11:18 + Luke:33

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."'" (Luke 7:33-34)

Jesus contrasted Himself with St John the Baptist. Jesus said that John did not eat bread nor drink wine, but Jesus did eat and drink. Furthermore, because Jesus ate and drank, He was called a "glutton" and a "drunkard." This implies that Jesus definitely drank wine.

In fact, it would have been impossible for Jesus to have celebrated a Passover Seder without at least four cups of wine. The seder requires it.
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« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2007, 02:14:23 AM »

Bless your heart Matthew!
  We know that one doesn't participate on this forum to talk about Orthodoxy along with many other items of interest.  I for one participate for many reasons  which include  gleaning insights from fellow Orthodox people, learning about latest news affecting the church, getting book reviews, and embarrassingly enough for entertainment.  But mostly I feel a sense of comraderie with some of you guys and it feels good to have a community of believers that I can connect with often.
Anyway, there's my two cents.

Happy Birthday Matthew and many years more to come for you.
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« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2007, 02:17:45 AM »

Jesus contrasted Himself with St John the Baptist. Jesus said that John did not eat bread nor drink wine, but Jesus did eat and drink. Furthermore, because Jesus ate and drank, He was called a "glutton" and a "drunkard." This implies that Jesus definitely drank wine.

Did Jesus break His own commandments? The Greek word "oinos" makes no distinction between alcoholic or non-alcoholic wine. In considering the context of Scripture, it should be clear that Jesus was not a drunkard, and neither would he condone drunkenness.
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« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2007, 02:18:13 AM »

I think a good pint of ale is one of God's greatest creations Wink Three cheers to God!
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« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2007, 02:22:32 AM »

I think a good pint of ale is one of God's greatest creations Wink Three cheers to God!

You might be confusing God's Creation with man's creation.

In Proverbs 23:32 
At the last (wine) bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper.

In Proverbs 31:4 
It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes intoxicating drink.

Isaiah 5:22
Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink.

Isaiah 28:7
But they also have erred through wine, and through intoxicating drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink, they are swallowed up by wine, they are out of the way through intoxicating drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, pressing him to your bottle, even to make him drunk, that you may look on his nakedness!

1Peter 4:3
For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in…drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.

Ephesians 5:17-18
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit.

Galatians 5
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and all such things; those who practice these things, as I have told you before and I say to you now, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 13
13 Let us walk decently, as in the daylight; not in clamor and drunkenness, not in the practice of immorality, not in envy and strife.


Jesus did not break His own commandments. It would be best to just drop the issue, and let Scripture speak for itself.

Peace.
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« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2007, 02:26:24 AM »

I think a good pint of ale is one of God's greatest creations Wink Three cheers to God!

Psalm 104:14-15: "He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate--bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart."


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« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2007, 02:30:16 AM »

Matthew, scripture has been interpreted for thousands of years to imply that Christ drank...<gasp>...alcohol. But if you get some kind of sick pleasure out of being more pious than Jesus, go for it; but I, for one, just polished off a half fifth of bourbon and I must say it is one of God's greatest gifts to man kind and that it would be a sin not to enjoy it...life must really suck for you though, I'd really consider looking into that whole mormonism thing, seems to be inline with your way of thinking.
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« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2007, 02:32:09 AM »

Did Jesus break His own commandments? The Greek word "oinos" makes no distinction between alcoholic or non-alcoholic wine. In considering the context of Scripture, it should be clear that Jesus was not a drunkard, and neither would he condone drunkenness.

Actually, only the Pharisees claimed that Jesus was a drunkard - and that because he drank wine in contrast to St John who didn't. And, just what is non-alcoholic *wine*?
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« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2007, 02:33:52 AM »

Did Jesus break His own commandments? The Greek word "oinos" makes no distinction between alcoholic or non-alcoholic wine. In considering the context of Scripture, it should be clear that Jesus was not a drunkard, and neither would he condone drunkenness.

Actually, only the Pharisees claimed that Jesus was a drunkard - and that because he drank wine in contrast to St John who didn't. And, just what is non-alcoholic *wine*?
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« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2007, 02:34:48 AM »

Sorry for the double post. Not sure how that happened.  Undecided
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« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2007, 02:48:33 AM »

Now that I think of it, I think I'll make a trip to the fridge and get myself a nice cider.



I can't imagine a teetotaling God who would institute a Eucharist of consecrated wine. 
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« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2007, 02:53:35 AM »

Now that I think of it, I think I'll make a trip to the fridge and get myself a nice cider.

'Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry: for that shall abide with him of his labour the days of his life, which God giveth him under the sun.' -- Ecclesiastes
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« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2007, 02:54:26 AM »

Now that I think of it, I think I'll make a trip to the fridge and get myself a nice cider.

I've put myself on a "post-Christmas" diet, but I must admit to wishing there was some Bailey's in the house!  Grin

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« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2007, 02:57:30 AM »

Sigh. . . so do I! Yummy.
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« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2007, 02:58:22 AM »

Sigh. . . so do I! Yummy.

STOP IT!!!  Angry
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« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2007, 03:02:42 AM »

The Myth of Non-Alcoholic Wine

Wait a minute! Of course there's non-alcoholic wine, we've all seen it in our grocery stores, plus there's the ever popular Welch's grape juice that many churches use for communion. There is no disputing the fact of non-alcoholic wine existing today. The question is; when did we first get non-alcoholic wine and grape juice? The answer comes as surprise to many people raised in churches that have said that all alcoholic beverages are evil or that Jesus only drank non-alcoholic wine.

Until 1869 there was no such thing as non-alcoholic wine or grape juice apart from drinking it the very day it was squeezed. Until that time and actually for a number of years afterward, every church that celebrated communion (or the Lord's Supper, or the Eucharist) used alcoholic wine. It was the only thing available! To understand why, we need to take a few minutes to consider how wine comes about (or is made).

When grapes are crushed the resultant grape juice is, at the moment, true grape juice. Unless it is processed in a special manner that was invented in 1869, the grape juice almost immediately begins a natural process of fermentation.

Fermentation happens rapidly, caused by natural yeasts in the environment. In modern settings, specific yeasts are often introduced to enhance flavor. In fact, some natural yeast can introduce distinctly undesirable flavors. In theory, in a perfectly sterile environment the grape juice would not ferment. In practice the grapes themselves are covered with these yeasts and sometimes other contaminants (some that can even ruin the wine). Regardless, in ancient times, the stone or wooden vats and buildings would easily have had everything necessary to start the process of fermentation.

Wine Presses: Many of the ancient wine presses remain to the present day. Ordinarily they consisted of two rectangular or circular excavations, hewn (Isaiah 5:2) in the solid rock to a depth of 2 or 3 feet. Where possible one was always higher than the other and they were connected by a pipe or channel. Their size, of course, varied greatly, but the upper vat was always wider and shallower than the lower and was the press proper, into which the grapes were thrown, to be crushed by the feet of the treaders (Isaiah 63:1-3, etc.). The juice flowed down through the pipe into the lower vat, from which it was removed into jars (Haggai 2:16) or where it was allowed to remain during the first fermentation. (International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia)

For emphasis, it must be again noted that the freshly pressed grape juice begins the process of fermentation almost immediately. The process is that of the yeast converting the sugar into alcohol. In modern settings winemakers have ways of stopping the fermentation process to make the wine sweeter if desired. During ancient times the process would continue until the sugars were consumed.

Fermentation: In the climate of Palestine fermentation begins almost immediately, frequently on the same day for juice pressed out in the morning, but never later than the next day. At first a slight foam appears on the surface of the liquid, and from that moment, according to Jewish tradition, it is liable to the wine-tithe (Ma`aseroth 1:7). The action rapidly becomes more violent, and while it is in progress the liquid must be kept in jars or in a vat, for it would burst even the newest and strongest of wine-skins (Job 32:19). Within about a week this violent fermentation subsides, and the wine is transferred to other jars or strong wine-skins (Mark 2:22 and parallel's), in which it undergoes the secondary fermentation. ... At the end of 40 days it was regarded as properly "wine" and could be offered as a drink offering (`Edhuyyoth 6:1). (International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia)

Drinking the wine at earlier points would have meant that it would have less alcoholic content, but after the secondary fermentation was complete, there would be little change in alcoholic content. Modern wines (excluding those that are fortified, meaning they have extra alcohol added) vary from 8-14% alcohol. As fermentation stops when the sugar level drops below 0.1%, the alcohol content is dependant on the sugar content of the grapes. Grapes grown in different areas, and different types of grapes, will yield varying alcoholic content.

http://www.bibleistrue.com/qna/qnadrink.htm#NonAlcoholic
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« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2007, 03:10:52 AM »

I now hold in my hands liquid bliss. Give it a try, Matthew! Cheers!

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« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2007, 03:52:05 AM »

Yep...those Benedictines in Europe produce some good ale and other herbal medicinal beverages...like that Chimay Ale...bout 9% alcohol.

james

Mmmmm...Chimay....(especially Blue)
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« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2007, 09:41:31 AM »

How does Matthew take The Holy Communion if he does not consume alcohol? It seems to me that the wine used for Holy Communion is actually  of higher alcohol content than more commonly used table wine.

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« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2007, 10:22:01 AM »

How does Matthew take The Holy Communion if he does not consume alcohol? It seems to me that the wine used for Holy Communion is actually  of higher alcohol content than more commonly used table wine.

Thomas 

Not to accuse all Copts (and those in communion with them) of holding these beliefs, but I've read a coptic theologian's arguments for the Wedding at Cana's water-to-wine transformation being water-to-grape juice... It is possible that this is the school of thought that our friend seems to be coming from.  I personally think it's Moslem influence on our Christian brethren, but who am I to say?  Our EO monks produce wine (alchoholic), Metaxa, and Ouzo in their Monasteries.  If you ask them, they say don't get drunk - only drink the alchohol for the enjoyment of the flavors.

Besides, I'm sure that if we were all tea-totallers (sp?) from the beginning, much of our fantastic theology wouldn't have been written (Wine - friend of the Theologian for many centuries)!
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« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2007, 10:50:56 AM »

This may be a forum comprised of Orthodox members, but since I know none of you personally, I cannot know the sincerity of your Orthodoxy. You may be St. John Chrysostom, but then again, you may be Rasputin.

Matthew, I have to anticipate that you won't take to heart what I am about to say, but I feel I have to give it a try. But then again, the not listening is really at the heart of the problem.

It's pretty obvious that you take for granted that you are a lot closer to Crysostom than to Rasputin. I see the opposite. You have a history, not only here but elsewhere, of a lot of rather self-important agitation. I haven't counted, but it's a safe bet that since you arrived here, you have started more topics than anyone else, and at times are starting a majority of topics overall. And almost inevitably the reaction is, "what planet did that notion come from?" You have a love of the strange and eccentric; you seem repelled by the ordinary. It is very hard to get you to take instruction, so that for example when we get to the subject of wine, I expect you to hew to your self-righteous abstentiousness in the face of the reality that unfermented grape juice was only made possible by Mr. Welch.

I case you haven't noticed, we are all sinners, and we are all limited by that and by our own human nature. Orthodox praxis is possible here, in the manner in which we converse and in the attitudes with which we approach that conversation. But at some level Orthodoxy has to be about our fealty to our churches. You can be good Orthodox, or bad Orthodox; but (I am told) you are Orthodox. What I say may be Orthodox in content, but I remain outside that church.

What is most striking to me, after your unorthodox opinions (note the small-o) is how you pass from one enthusiasm to another, without any kind of history between them. One week it's Lamsa; another week, it's something else. It would only take a little introspection to notice that none of these informs each other, and that your certainty and changeability are your only constants. Therefore it seems to me that this latest opinionation of yours is worth as much as all the rest: it is the whim of the day, and in a week or so it will pass, and you will find a new hobby horse to ride, and this one would be as lost as the snows of yesteryear were it not for the convenient record kept by the forum. For it hardly ever seems that you are informed by your interactions here; the best that we are able to do, it appears, is to from time to time cut short one enthusiasm, and even then you are prone to revisit them.

And then there is the whole copyright discussion. I think on one level the issue is subtle and worthy of better discussion, but as far as your participation is concerned, it's really all about your unwillingness to admit that it is all about you not having to pay for what you take. In other words, it's about you being unwilling to admit that you are sinning like mad. In your heart of hearts, it seems to me that you know that you aren't a sinner, so you are rationalizing like made to protect that belief.

So when it comes to this thread, what you are really saying is, "I'm a pretty damn good Orthodox Christian, and the rest of you aren't."
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 10:51:36 AM by Keble » Logged
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« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2007, 11:11:32 AM »

Quote
Not to accuse all Copts (and those in communion with them) of holding these beliefs, but I've read a coptic theologian's arguments for the Wedding at Cana's water-to-wine transformation being water-to-grape juice...

Yes, I remember you bringing this up a while ago. First off, the figure in question is not really a "theologian", he was just a priest expressing his personal opinion (our system of electing priests is vastly different to that of the EO's--having a theological degree is not pre-requisite).

In any event, I'm not sure how the above statement fits in within the context of being a response to Thomas' post regarding the nature of the substance offered as the Eucharist. I don't ever recall drinking grape juice from the chalice of a Coptic Orthodox Church. In fact, my father is responsible for purchasing the wine used for the altar dedicated to St. Cyril of Alexandria--it is sacramental wine imported from Jerusalem, Israel.

Quote
I personally think it's Moslem influence on our Christian brethren, but who am I to say?

I think the strict prohibition against alcohol that is generally promoted by our Church leaders is more motivated by a solicious pastoral application of the, "everything is lawful, but not everything is profitable" principle. What better way is there to prevent youth (who are the primary concern of the clergy in relation to the subject of alcohol(-abuse)) from doing the unprofitable (and potentially unlawful--depending on how it is controlled etc.), then to cast the impression that the unprofitable is indeed unlawful. Now, it may not be technically correct, but the Church's concern is not for technical correctness, but for the salvation of souls. Better to ruin one man's moderately pursued leisure drinking and save another from potential alcohol abuse (which is often the unplanned/unintentioned fate of the "leisure drinker"), I say. And from personal experience, I must say, it seems to work. If I tell you that I do not know of, or have not heard of, one leisure drinker in my parish, you may think that's a sad story; but if I tell you that I furthermore do not know of, or have not heard of, anyone in my parish dealing with any sort of a drinking problem, then you may begin to understand the wisdom behind the Church's approach to this matter.

Quote
Our EO monks produce wine (alchoholic), Metaxa, and Ouzo in their Monasteries.

Most (if not all?) Coptic Orthodox monasteries in Egypt produce their own sacramental wine. Metaxa and Ouzo hey? I don't suppose you guys have a sacramental purpose for those ones.  Wink
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 11:14:43 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2007, 12:08:05 PM »

Therefore it seems to me that this latest opinionation of yours is worth as much as all the rest: it is the whim of the day, and in a week or so it will pass, and you will find a new hobby horse to ride, and this one would be as lost as the snows of yesteryear were it not for the convenient record kept by the forum.

Firstly, let me applaud you on that excellent line. Very clever!  Cheesy


I think I can sum this up:

1.) Parish priests, when there is still communion left in the cup, must drink it all if it is not going to be used. You can't tell me there isn't a minor buzz if there weren't that many people at communion, and thus, wine left over.

2.) Unless he is abstaining from all communion, he is a hypocrite.

3.) Matthew is a tee-totaling monkey trying to write Shakespeare while eating an apple pie and watching a Civil War documentary. But what if the apples in the pie have fermented? *GASP* Scandal!
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« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2007, 12:17:18 PM »

Unless he is abstaining from all communion, he is a hypocrite.

... or he is a rock-ribbed beleiver in transsubstantiation....
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« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2007, 12:27:34 PM »

EA,
What about that brownish, fermented from bread drink that Eritreans make (Ethiopians too?)?  Isn't that alchoholic?  Have any idea what strength?  The Eritreans at my parish occasionally bring it to lunch after Liturgy.  I'm not too fond of it.
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« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2007, 12:28:18 PM »

Matthew, I have to anticipate that you won't take to heart what I am about to say, but I feel I have to give it a try. But then again, the not listening is really at the heart of the problem.

It's pretty obvious that you take for granted that you are a lot closer to Crysostom than to Rasputin. I see the opposite. You have a history, not only here but elsewhere, of a lot of rather self-important agitation. I haven't counted, but it's a safe bet that since you arrived here, you have started more topics than anyone else, and at times are starting a majority of topics overall. And almost inevitably the reaction is, "what planet did that notion come from?" You have a love of the strange and eccentric; you seem repelled by the ordinary. It is very hard to get you to take instruction, so that for example when we get to the subject of wine, I expect you to hew to your self-righteous abstentiousness in the face of the reality that unfermented grape juice was only made possible by Mr. Welch.

I case you haven't noticed, we are all sinners, and we are all limited by that and by our own human nature. Orthodox praxis is possible here, in the manner in which we converse and in the attitudes with which we approach that conversation. But at some level Orthodoxy has to be about our fealty to our churches. You can be good Orthodox, or bad Orthodox; but (I am told) you are Orthodox. What I say may be Orthodox in content, but I remain outside that church.

What is most striking to me, after your unorthodox opinions (note the small-o) is how you pass from one enthusiasm to another, without any kind of history between them. One week it's Lamsa; another week, it's something else. It would only take a little introspection to notice that none of these informs each other, and that your certainty and changeability are your only constants. Therefore it seems to me that this latest opinionation of yours is worth as much as all the rest: it is the whim of the day, and in a week or so it will pass, and you will find a new hobby horse to ride, and this one would be as lost as the snows of yesteryear were it not for the convenient record kept by the forum. For it hardly ever seems that you are informed by your interactions here; the best that we are able to do, it appears, is to from time to time cut short one enthusiasm, and even then you are prone to revisit them.

And then there is the whole copyright discussion. I think on one level the issue is subtle and worthy of better discussion, but as far as your participation is concerned, it's really all about your unwillingness to admit that it is all about you not having to pay for what you take. In other words, it's about you being unwilling to admit that you are sinning like mad. In your heart of hearts, it seems to me that you know that you aren't a sinner, so you are rationalizing like made to protect that belief.

So when it comes to this thread, what you are really saying is, "I'm a pretty damn good Orthodox Christian, and the rest of you aren't."

An early nomination for OC.net's "post of the year"!!!  This one is worthy of Oscar buzz!
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« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2007, 12:32:55 PM »

In some ways, M777 is like the Michael Jordan of internet fora.

No, he's not a prolific scorer or a hardened defender, but I think of a line I used to hear a lot with respect to MJ.  They used to say "you can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him".

It's like M777's posts.  You can't stop them, you can only *hope* to contain them.
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