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Author Topic: This is not an Orthodox Christian forum  (Read 14618 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 16, 2007, 05:35:21 PM »

In what way does this forum exemplify right belief and right praxis? Orthodoxy is not practiced on the internet; the true God is not worshipped via keyboard. This may be a forum comprised of Orthodox members, but since I know none of you personally, I cannot know the sincerity of your Orthodoxy. You may be St. John Chrysostom, but then again, you may be Rasputin. Therefore, if this cannot be considered an Orthodox Christian forum and neither are we certain that this is a forum comprised of Orthodox Christians; can we at least discern whether or not this qualifies as a "good" forum? I'll leave that up to you. If, on the other hand, this forum, or any internet forum for that matter, can be considered "Orthodox," then one might as well believe that a tacky blinking neon "icon" is also "Orthodox."
 
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2007, 05:40:04 PM »

Yeah you're right Matt, I think I will talk to Fr Chris and Robert about throwing in the towel. Cuz nothing good comes from this unOrthodox pseudo forum.
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2007, 05:45:08 PM »

Yeah you're right Matt, I think I will talk to Fr Chris and Robert about throwing in the towel. Cuz nothing good comes from this unOrthodox pseudo forum.

My point is that "Orthodox Christian" and "internet forum" are a contradiction of terms. If this forum is not Orthodox, then neither is any forum for that matter.
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2007, 05:45:21 PM »

Matthew,

Is there any hope that you will ever make any sense, ever?
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2007, 05:47:23 PM »

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My point is that "Orthodox Christian" and "internet forum" are a contradiction of terms.


Because one refers to a type of personal being, and the other a type of impersonal thing? Fair enough.
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2007, 05:49:37 PM »

Because one refers to a type of personal being, and the other a type of impersonal thing? Fair enough.

Because Orthodoxy is not practiced via the internet, but in how we relate to the real world in real life.
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2007, 05:51:47 PM »

I think the issues you bring up are very good ones, though I think you are dealing with them rather rashly. I have been on various forums for over 9 years now, and on this particular one for 4 1/2 years (if you  were a member before they changed the name to OC.net, you've been around here for a while Wink ). So, I might, possibly have picked up a thing or two along the way.

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In what way does this forum exemplify right belief and right praxis?

It is exceedingly good at allowing freedom. It gives a very high place to tolerance, respect and civility (central elements of Christian love). If you listen sometimes, you might even pick up some orthodox information. I know I've learned more (and found out that I was wrong more) from this forum than any other. Truth is Orthodox, no?

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Orthodoxy is not practiced on the internet; the true God is not worshipped via keyboard.

The same might be said of books, but that doesn't mean all books should be thrown out.

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This may be a forum comprised of Orthodox members, but since I know none of you personally, I cannot know the sincerity of your Orthodoxy. You may be St. John Chrysostom, but then again, you may be Rasputin. Therefore, if this cannot be considered an Orthodox Christian forum and neither are we certain that this is a forum comprised of Orthodox Christians; can we at least discern whether or not this qualifies as a "good" forum?

Lol. Well maybe I'm just somewhat cynical, but I think the same could be said of real life, Matthew. People are fake. Period. True, peoplemay be slightly more fake on the internet, because it provides anonymity and a better place for people to be who they want to be rather than who they are. For example, when you see me in real life, you see the ugly truth; when you see a picture I post on myspace, you see the least ugly one. That's a deception. I am on the internet deceiving you. But people are deceptive in real life as well. Some people might even be more deceptive in real life, because the very anonymity which makes some people deceptive while online might make another person bolder and more forthright while online. It's a mixed bag.

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I'll leave that up to you. If, on the other hand, this forum, or any internet forum for that matter, can be considered "Orthodox," then one might as well believe that a tacky blinking neon "icon" is also "Orthodox."

I dunno, I can't see anyone bowing down to a neon icon. Then again, some people can't imagine bending down before a paper icon, but John of Shanghai and San Francisco didn't have a problem doing that. Praxis is sometimes a matter of opinion.
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2007, 05:53:06 PM »

Because Orthodoxy is not practiced via the internet, but in how we relate to the real world in real life.

You're kidding, right?  Grin
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2007, 05:56:15 PM »

Is there any hope that you will ever make any sense, ever?

In an irrational world, the most sensible man is a "fool."  

For example, when you see me in real life, you see the ugly truth; when you see a picture I post on myspace, you see the least ugly one.

But at least you have a wife and children who love you... or at least you've allowed us to believe that you have a wife and children who love you. Your family's opinion of you should be what really matters to you, not what the people on internet forums think.
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2007, 06:42:58 PM »

Well, even if we were members of your parish and you hung around with us during coffee hour every Sunday, you still wouldn't know if we were the same person out side of the building or if we were just putting on a good show.

And before I moved close to an Orthodox church, a forum was my only contact with real Orthodox people.  It is also a place where a person can ask questions they might be ashamed to ask in person.
So a forum has some good points.
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2007, 06:46:00 PM »

This is not me winking at you either.   Wink
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2007, 06:47:06 PM »

So a forum has some good points.

That might be correct, but "Orthodox Christian forum" would still be a contradiction. One might as well have an "Orthodox Christian mailbox" or "Orthodox Christian beach towel." Both would serve a purpose, but that wouldn't make them "Orthodox."
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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2007, 07:02:31 PM »

They would be if they were used for Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2007, 07:03:20 PM »

Orthodox Forum means "a forum where Orthodox Christians can discuss various issues". Deal with it.
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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2007, 07:03:57 PM »

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That might be correct, but "Orthodox Christian forum" would still be a contradiction. One might as well have an "Orthodox Christian mailbox" or "Orthodox Christian beach towel." Both would serve a purpose, but that wouldn't make them "Orthodox."

What the Sam Hill are you talking about?  You're comparing apples and oranges.  In modern parlance, a forum is an internet site where you discuss issues.  This forum deals primarily with Orthodox Christian issues, therefore it is an Orthodox Christian Forum.  I am on another forum that deals with issues from the Civil War.  It, therefore is a Civil War Forum.

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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2007, 07:05:33 PM »

Also, now that I think about it, I have a white towel that I used to dry myself after my baptism into the Orthodox Church.  I keep it next to my baptismal robe and do not use it due to its signifigance.  Therefore, that's an Orthodox Christian Bathtowel.  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2007, 07:08:26 PM »

What the Sam Hill are you talking about?  You're comparing apples and oranges.  In modern parlance, a forum is an internet site where you discuss issues.  This forum deals primarily with Orthodox Christian issues, therefore it is an Orthodox Christian Forum.  I am on another forum that deals with issues from the Civil War.  It, therefore is a Civil War Forum.

Do you not see a difference between the words "Civil War" and "Orthodox Christian"? I don't believe we should be so arbitrary with the terms "Orthodox," "Christian," and "Orthodox Christian." Again, Orthodoxy is practiced in real life in the real world, not over an internet forum. Otherwise, the term "Orthodox Christian" has little weight or value. One might as well make "Jesus Christ" the brand name for a candy bar.
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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2007, 07:11:52 PM »

You know, one of my law professors always talks about The Monkey when giving us test advice.  An infinite number of them, as we all know, will eventually produce the works of Shakespeare, but The Monkey as an individual can only get a C- on a test because he produces nothing but gibberish.  We've always assumed The Monkey was merely hypothetical, but we have now located him.

Matthew is The Monkey.
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« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2007, 07:13:28 PM »

One might as well make "Jesus Christ" the brand name for a candy bar.

You already made him some sort of sex symbol with one of your avatars a while back.  I was wondering when you'd take it to this level.
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« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2007, 07:14:29 PM »

Matthew is The Monkey.

Again, in an irrational world, the most sensible man is a "fool." If you don't see the arbitrary nature of "Orthodox Christian forum," that is not my fault.

I was wondering when you'd take it to this level.

I'm not the one who devalued the name of Orthodoxy by making an "Orthodox Christian forum."
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2007, 07:17:13 PM »

You know, one of my law professors always talks about The Monkey when giving us test advice.  An infinite number of them, as we all know, will eventually produce the works of Shakespeare, but The Monkey as an individual can only get a C- on a test because he produces nothing but gibberish.  We've always assumed The Monkey was merely hypothetical, but we have now located him.

Matthew is The Monkey.

ROFL! Cheesy

Quote
Again, Orthodoxy is practiced in real life in the real world, not over an internet forum.
Well, my apologies that you do not practice the tenets of Orthodox in all aspects of your life and you feel that the internet is fake enought to be non-Orthodox there.
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2007, 07:18:57 PM »

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Again, in an irrational world, the most sensible man is a "fool." If you don't see the arbitrary nature of "Orthodox Christian forum," that is not my fault.

Well, I am glad that in your foolishness you have decided to enlighten the rest of us.

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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2007, 07:20:55 PM »

I am on another forum that deals with issues from the Civil War.  It, therefore is a Civil War Forum.
No it doesn't. You just think it does. There cannot be any such thing as a civil war forum any more than there can be a civil war mailbox or a civil war beach towel. "Civil War' and "internet forum" are contradictions in terms, and the Civil war cannot be practiced on the internet. Why anyone else can't see this is difficult for me to understand. Purple monkey dishwasher, lucy in the sky with diamonds.
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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2007, 07:22:10 PM »

Well, my apologies that you do not practice the tenets of Orthodox in all aspects of your life and you feel that the internet is fake enought to be non-Orthodox there.

Again, there is no way of knowing for certain whether the members of the forum are Orthodox, given that I do not know your conduct in the real world, or whether you even attend an Orthodox church, and there's nothing that would make an internet forum more Orthodox than a candy bar, a beach towel, a roast beef sandwich, etc.

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The Meaning of Orthodox.
The term Orthodox combines the adjective orthos, which means right, correct or true, and the noun doxa, which comes from the verb doxazo, "I hold an opinion," or "I believe." Hence "right belief," or "true doctrine." But in a deeper sense it also means "right worship," since doxazo can also mean "I glorify." It could be said that the term Orthodox was forged as a defense against heretical, or heterodox, teaching which persisted during the formative centuries. As then, so now, it signifies a framework of theological propositions worked into precise doctrinal formulations, a body of faith and a tradition, that has retained its absolute integrity in the face of the changes and innovations that have occurred within Christianity.
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7051.asp

Orthodoxy is found in Scripture, the liturgical and theological Tradition of the Church, and in how we relate to others, even those who are our enemies. Orthodoxy is not practiced over an internet forum, Orthodoxy is real life.
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2007, 07:23:25 PM »

No it doesn't. You just think it does. There cannot be any such thing as a civil war forum any more than there can be a civil war mailbox or a civil war beach towel. "Civil War' and "internet forum" are contradictions in terms, and the Civil war cannot be practiced on the internet. Why anyone else can't see this is difficult for me to understand. Purple monkey dishwasher, lucy in the sky with diamonds.

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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2007, 07:26:41 PM »

Instead of putting my head through a wall over this whole thread, I shall restrain myself to ask a question....Why are you here then??
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2007, 07:29:35 PM »

Instead of putting my head through a wall over this whole thread, I shall restrain myself to ask a question....Why are you here then??

That is a good question. As an Orthodox Christian, I should devote myself to activities that can reasonably be referred to as "Orthodox," such as prayer, fasting, reading Scripture, and loving my neighbor. 
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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2007, 07:32:40 PM »

Igly boo is farkle?
Clearly I can trust you. Think about it man, just think about it! An apple is not a pie, yet there is this huge government conspiracy to make us believe that there is such a thing as "apple pie". Can't you see? Am I the only one who recognises this?
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2007, 07:35:49 PM »

Clearly I can trust you. Think about it man, just think about it! An apple is not a pie, yet there is this huge government conspiracy to make us believe that there is such a thing as "apple pie". Can't you see? Am I the only one who recognises this?

I'm sorry if you'd devalue the term "Orthodox Christian" to compare it to the term "apple." I thought there was more meaning in Orthodoxy than that.   
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2007, 07:37:45 PM »

Clearly I can trust you. Think about it man, just think about it! An apple is not a pie, yet there is this huge government conspiracy to make us believe that there is such a thing as "apple pie". Can't you see? Am I the only one who recognises this?

Preach it, brother!  Elvis is on a UFO!!!!
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« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2007, 07:44:04 PM »

This thread has some funny stuff! Monkeys and apples, that's what OC.net is all about Matthew.  Tongue
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« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2007, 07:45:16 PM »

This is a serious issue as to how loosely we should use the term "Orthodox Christian" and what it really means to us. It's sad that anyone would be foolhardy about it.

Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum. Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum. Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum.
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« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2007, 07:47:02 PM »

This is a serious issue as to how loosely we should use the term "Orthodox Christian"
Or the terms "apple" or "monkey" or "civil war".....
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« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2007, 07:52:36 PM »

Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum. Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum. Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum.

Now click the heels of your ruby slippers together three times and you'll be teleported out of the magical land of Oz and far away from a keyboard.

And George will be ever so grateful...

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« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2007, 07:53:58 PM »

This is a serious issue as to how loosely we should use the term "Orthodox Christian" and what it really means to us. It's sad that anyone would be foolhardy about it.

Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum. Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum. Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum.

Internet forums are real life--not real life in its totality, but certainly a part of real life. Many of us meet in person as a result of having met on this forum.  it is clearly a part of true sharing of being.

Anastasios
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« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2007, 07:56:29 PM »

Quote
Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum. Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum. Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum.

This reminded me of that seen in The Burbs, where Tom Hanks is in his basement and starts repeating himself in an attempt to ignore his friend.  Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2007, 07:59:30 PM »

For the purpose of semantics....by labelling the forum as "Orthodox Christian" it is shown the majority of the users may indeed belong to said faith group.

Has anyone actually claimed that being on this site makes one a "true" Orthodox Christian??  Whatever happened to the imperfection of the church and its adherents??

I mean, is someone on here claiming that by having a set number of posts, they are a better exemplar of the Faith than anyone else??  This is a medium to facilitate communication where barriers to physical fellowship exist. Period.

Even if it was possible for this site to make someone better as a follower of the Faith, to do so one would have to turn into one of those crazy computer nerds who die from sitting at the computer for days on end depriving themselves the neccessities of life.  Not to mention said persons would be skipping services....
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« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2007, 08:03:35 PM »

In the Orthodox Church, we have a phenomenon known as "Fools for Christ".  Since we have been informed that this is not an Orthodox Christian forum, I guess we just have fools!
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« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2007, 08:04:01 PM »

And George will be ever so grateful...
No he won't. He actually has grown to love Matthew.
I like having him around. He amuses me.
And I would rather have a board full of Matthews than one full of racist nutjobs using it as a soapbox for their thinly disguised irrational hatred.
Matthew reminds me of the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy's description of the planet Earth: "Mostly harmless".
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« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2007, 08:07:59 PM »

And I would rather have a board full of Matthews than one full of racist nutjobs using it as a soapbox for their thinly disguised irrational hatred.

And we'd be guaranteed Shakespeare at some point.  Wink
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« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2007, 08:11:36 PM »

In the Orthodox Church, we have a phenomenon known as "Fools for Christ".  Since we have been informed that this is not an Orthodox Christian forum, I guess we just have fools!

Well, at least one of them. Wink
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« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2007, 08:16:19 PM »

Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum. Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum. Orthodox Christianity is found in a life well lived, not on an internet forum.

When I read this, I thought I needed new reading glasses. Roll Eyes

Matthew,

I have noticed, as I've read through other threads, that you have some very interesting things to say and often contribute some very good thoughts. This time, however, it seems that you have merely been contentious. Likely you didn't mean to be.

If I might be so bold as to offer a few words of advice. Sometimes, it's a good idea not to voice what is, when it is  articulated to others, bound to be perceived as a random and unconnected thought.  Sometimes, for whatever reason, issues that we have been contemplating are difficult to share. What might seem a brilliant concept when it remains inside our own head, is not helpful when shared with others who have not spent time considering similar issues.

Pick your battles and remember loose lips sink ships.  Grin


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« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2007, 08:24:33 PM »

Hey,
I just noticed it's Matthew's Birthday.
Matthew - Happy Birthday!
May God grant you many happy, healthy, holy, and blessed years!
Mnohaja i blahaja lita!
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« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2007, 08:28:26 PM »

Happy Birthday, Matthew! Grin
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« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2007, 08:41:54 PM »

The Internet Forum Formerly Known as Orthodox Christianity dot Net, or IFFKOC.net.  Hey, it looks Greek to me!

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« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2007, 08:58:35 PM »

Matthew, go have some Jagermeister, vodka, even beer... something, anything!  Cool Come to think of it, I can use this as an excuse to have a drink myself. Cheers!
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« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2007, 09:15:14 PM »

Happy Birthday, Matthew! Grin
21! I remember being 21 (vaguely!)
Many happy returns Matthew!
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« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2007, 09:24:53 PM »

Happy 21st Matthew!!  Here's to you not being able to remember it, if ya catch my drift.  Wink
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« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2007, 09:51:46 PM »

Or the terms "apple" or "monkey" or "civil war".....

"Orthodoxy" refers to a profound mystical and spiritual reality, "apple," "monkey" and "civil war" do not. I'd hope that, as a result of its truth, we'd use the term "Orthodox" less lightly than these other terms.
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« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2007, 10:02:43 PM »

"Orthodoxy" refers to a profound mystical and spiritual reality, "apple," "monkey" and "civil war" do not. I'd hope that, as a result of its truth, we'd use the term "Orthodox" less lightly than these other terms.

the term Orthodox is meaningless insofar as a word cannot represent an uncreated reality.
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« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2007, 10:03:34 PM »

"Orthodoxy" refers to a profound mystical and spiritual reality, "apple," "monkey" and "civil war" do not. I'd hope that, as a result of its truth, we'd use the term "Orthodox" less lightly than these other terms.
And even if people disagree with your assesment and decrees of what is "truth", and even if the world doesn't behave the way you want it to, I still hope you have a Happy Birthday anyway!
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« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2007, 10:04:02 PM »

Happy 21st Matthew!!  Here's to you not being able to remember it, if ya catch my drift.  Wink

I turn 21 on the 18th of January. I do not drink alcohol, and deliberately chose to live in alcohol-free housing. Drunkenness is the desecration of God's temple. I've already experienced premarital sex, and realized that it's not worth compromising the temple of God. (1 Corinthians 6) Therefore, my 21st birthday will be like any other birthday, unremarkable and soon forgotten.
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« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2007, 10:06:02 PM »

the term Orthodox is meaningless insofar as a word cannot represent an uncreated reality.

One could argue that the most fundamental truths of Orthodoxy are uncreated, they have existed eternally in the mind of God. On the other hand, if you are correct, the created reality of Orthodoxy cannot be an internet forum, but something experienced in the real world.
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« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2007, 10:37:53 PM »

I turn 21 on the 18th of January. I do not drink alcohol, and deliberately chose to live in alcohol-free housing. Drunkenness is the desecration of God's temple. I've already experienced premarital sex, and realized that it's not worth compromising the temple of God. (1 Corinthians 6) Therefore, my 21st birthday will be like any other birthday, unremarkable and soon forgotten.

You're lecutring us on what it means to be orthodox and you dont even drink? Give me a break. Roll Eyes Wink
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« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2007, 10:49:30 PM »

You're lecutring us on what it means to be orthodox and you dont even drink? Give me a break. Roll Eyes Wink


Drinking is contrary to Orthodox asceticism.
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« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2007, 10:58:55 PM »

Drinking is contrary to Orthodox asceticism.

Somebody better tell that to the orthodox monastics.
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« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2007, 11:07:19 PM »

Somebody better tell that to the orthodox monastics.

Better yet, tell it to the Lord.  I seem to remember him turning water into wine once everyone was already hammered.
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« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2007, 12:19:04 AM »

Yep...those Benedictines in Europe produce some good ale and other herbal medicinal beverages...like that Chimay Ale...bout 9% alcohol.

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« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2007, 01:09:20 AM »

Yep...those Benedictines in Europe produce some good ale and other herbal medicinal beverages...like that Chimay Ale...bout 9% alcohol.

james

If you are speaking of Roman Catholic monks, that is not Orthodox asceticism.

Luke 15
33 They said to him, Why do the disciples of John always fast and pray, and also those of the Pharisees; but yours eat and drink?
34 He said to them, You cannot make the sons of the wedding feast fast so long as the bridegroom is with them.
35 But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken from them; then they will fast in those days.
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« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2007, 01:53:40 AM »

Better yet, tell it to the Lord.  I seem to remember him turning water into wine once everyone was already hammered.

Very true, and it was good wine as well.

Matthew, I never trust anyone more pious than Jesus.
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« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2007, 01:56:26 AM »

Quote
Drinking is contrary to Orthodox asceticism

You speak as though "Orthodox asceticism" is some monolithic system finished long ago. First, tradition is not just something from the past, you Orthodox living today are also tradition. In other words, five hundred years from now people will see you as part of the tradition. For you to look back to some perceived authoritative period or person or text, as though the present is chopped liver, is to miss the whole point of Orthodoxy. If Orthodox drink today, that's just as valid as if they did or did not drink in some other time and place.

And second, there were works on monasticism, monastics, or asceticism by Basil, John Cassian, Benedict, Aphraates, Athanasius, Sulpitius Severus, Jerome, Mark the Monk, Evagrios, Isaiah the solitary, Diadochus of Photiki, and many other authors (and that is just from a three century period). How many of these works have you read? Do you know that almost every single one of those people would have counselled someone like you to not speak a word on matters of faith and practice? (the only exception I can think of is John Climacus) Do you know that most Orthodox writers have considered talkativeness (e.g., making thousands of posts on a forum) to be a serious sin? I am not saying that you should not post here. I just think you are being rather subjective in 1) what people/works you follow when it comes to deciding what qualifies as asceticism, and 2) which rules you choose to follow and which you choose to ignore.
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« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2007, 02:04:03 AM »

Better yet, tell it to the Lord.  I seem to remember him turning water into wine once everyone was already hammered.

Luke 15
33 They said to him, Why do the disciples of John always fast and pray, and also those of the Pharisees; but yours eat and drink?
34 He said to them, You cannot make the sons of the wedding feast fast so long as the bridegroom is with them.
35 But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken from them; then they will fast in those days.

In Proverbs 23:32  
At the last (wine) bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper.

In Proverbs 31:4  
It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes intoxicating drink.

Isaiah 5:22
Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink.

Isaiah 28:7
But they also have erred through wine, and through intoxicating drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink, they are swallowed up by wine, they are out of the way through intoxicating drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, pressing him to your bottle, even to make him drunk, that you may look on his nakedness!

1Peter 4:3
For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in…drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.

Ephesians 5:17-18
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit.

Galatians 5
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and all such things; those who practice these things, as I have told you before and I say to you now, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 13
13 Let us walk decently, as in the daylight; not in clamor and drunkenness, not in the practice of immorality, not in envy and strife.

I wonder how alcoholic the wine was that Jesus drank, perhaps barely at all. God does not contradict Himself.

Peace.
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« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2007, 02:08:12 AM »

I wonder how alcoholic the wine was that Jesus drank, perhaps barely at all.

Peace.

Ever consider the mormon church? You might fit in quite well.
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« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2007, 02:12:20 AM »

Matthew 11:18 + Luke:33

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."'" (Luke 7:33-34)

Jesus contrasted Himself with St John the Baptist. Jesus said that John did not eat bread nor drink wine, but Jesus did eat and drink. Furthermore, because Jesus ate and drank, He was called a "glutton" and a "drunkard." This implies that Jesus definitely drank wine.

In fact, it would have been impossible for Jesus to have celebrated a Passover Seder without at least four cups of wine. The seder requires it.
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« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2007, 02:14:23 AM »

Bless your heart Matthew!
  We know that one doesn't participate on this forum to talk about Orthodoxy along with many other items of interest.  I for one participate for many reasons  which include  gleaning insights from fellow Orthodox people, learning about latest news affecting the church, getting book reviews, and embarrassingly enough for entertainment.  But mostly I feel a sense of comraderie with some of you guys and it feels good to have a community of believers that I can connect with often.
Anyway, there's my two cents.

Happy Birthday Matthew and many years more to come for you.
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« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2007, 02:17:45 AM »

Jesus contrasted Himself with St John the Baptist. Jesus said that John did not eat bread nor drink wine, but Jesus did eat and drink. Furthermore, because Jesus ate and drank, He was called a "glutton" and a "drunkard." This implies that Jesus definitely drank wine.

Did Jesus break His own commandments? The Greek word "oinos" makes no distinction between alcoholic or non-alcoholic wine. In considering the context of Scripture, it should be clear that Jesus was not a drunkard, and neither would he condone drunkenness.
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« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2007, 02:18:13 AM »

I think a good pint of ale is one of God's greatest creations Wink Three cheers to God!
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« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2007, 02:22:32 AM »

I think a good pint of ale is one of God's greatest creations Wink Three cheers to God!

You might be confusing God's Creation with man's creation.

In Proverbs 23:32 
At the last (wine) bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper.

In Proverbs 31:4 
It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes intoxicating drink.

Isaiah 5:22
Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink.

Isaiah 28:7
But they also have erred through wine, and through intoxicating drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink, they are swallowed up by wine, they are out of the way through intoxicating drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, pressing him to your bottle, even to make him drunk, that you may look on his nakedness!

1Peter 4:3
For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in…drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.

Ephesians 5:17-18
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit.

Galatians 5
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and all such things; those who practice these things, as I have told you before and I say to you now, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 13
13 Let us walk decently, as in the daylight; not in clamor and drunkenness, not in the practice of immorality, not in envy and strife.


Jesus did not break His own commandments. It would be best to just drop the issue, and let Scripture speak for itself.

Peace.
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« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2007, 02:26:24 AM »

I think a good pint of ale is one of God's greatest creations Wink Three cheers to God!

Psalm 104:14-15: "He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate--bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart."


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« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2007, 02:30:16 AM »

Matthew, scripture has been interpreted for thousands of years to imply that Christ drank...<gasp>...alcohol. But if you get some kind of sick pleasure out of being more pious than Jesus, go for it; but I, for one, just polished off a half fifth of bourbon and I must say it is one of God's greatest gifts to man kind and that it would be a sin not to enjoy it...life must really suck for you though, I'd really consider looking into that whole mormonism thing, seems to be inline with your way of thinking.
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« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2007, 02:32:09 AM »

Did Jesus break His own commandments? The Greek word "oinos" makes no distinction between alcoholic or non-alcoholic wine. In considering the context of Scripture, it should be clear that Jesus was not a drunkard, and neither would he condone drunkenness.

Actually, only the Pharisees claimed that Jesus was a drunkard - and that because he drank wine in contrast to St John who didn't. And, just what is non-alcoholic *wine*?
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« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2007, 02:33:52 AM »

Did Jesus break His own commandments? The Greek word "oinos" makes no distinction between alcoholic or non-alcoholic wine. In considering the context of Scripture, it should be clear that Jesus was not a drunkard, and neither would he condone drunkenness.

Actually, only the Pharisees claimed that Jesus was a drunkard - and that because he drank wine in contrast to St John who didn't. And, just what is non-alcoholic *wine*?
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« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2007, 02:34:48 AM »

Sorry for the double post. Not sure how that happened.  Undecided
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« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2007, 02:48:33 AM »

Now that I think of it, I think I'll make a trip to the fridge and get myself a nice cider.



I can't imagine a teetotaling God who would institute a Eucharist of consecrated wine. 
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« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2007, 02:53:35 AM »

Now that I think of it, I think I'll make a trip to the fridge and get myself a nice cider.

'Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry: for that shall abide with him of his labour the days of his life, which God giveth him under the sun.' -- Ecclesiastes
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« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2007, 02:54:26 AM »

Now that I think of it, I think I'll make a trip to the fridge and get myself a nice cider.

I've put myself on a "post-Christmas" diet, but I must admit to wishing there was some Bailey's in the house!  Grin

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« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2007, 02:57:30 AM »

Sigh. . . so do I! Yummy.
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« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2007, 02:58:22 AM »

Sigh. . . so do I! Yummy.

STOP IT!!!  Angry
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« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2007, 03:02:42 AM »

The Myth of Non-Alcoholic Wine

Wait a minute! Of course there's non-alcoholic wine, we've all seen it in our grocery stores, plus there's the ever popular Welch's grape juice that many churches use for communion. There is no disputing the fact of non-alcoholic wine existing today. The question is; when did we first get non-alcoholic wine and grape juice? The answer comes as surprise to many people raised in churches that have said that all alcoholic beverages are evil or that Jesus only drank non-alcoholic wine.

Until 1869 there was no such thing as non-alcoholic wine or grape juice apart from drinking it the very day it was squeezed. Until that time and actually for a number of years afterward, every church that celebrated communion (or the Lord's Supper, or the Eucharist) used alcoholic wine. It was the only thing available! To understand why, we need to take a few minutes to consider how wine comes about (or is made).

When grapes are crushed the resultant grape juice is, at the moment, true grape juice. Unless it is processed in a special manner that was invented in 1869, the grape juice almost immediately begins a natural process of fermentation.

Fermentation happens rapidly, caused by natural yeasts in the environment. In modern settings, specific yeasts are often introduced to enhance flavor. In fact, some natural yeast can introduce distinctly undesirable flavors. In theory, in a perfectly sterile environment the grape juice would not ferment. In practice the grapes themselves are covered with these yeasts and sometimes other contaminants (some that can even ruin the wine). Regardless, in ancient times, the stone or wooden vats and buildings would easily have had everything necessary to start the process of fermentation.

Wine Presses: Many of the ancient wine presses remain to the present day. Ordinarily they consisted of two rectangular or circular excavations, hewn (Isaiah 5:2) in the solid rock to a depth of 2 or 3 feet. Where possible one was always higher than the other and they were connected by a pipe or channel. Their size, of course, varied greatly, but the upper vat was always wider and shallower than the lower and was the press proper, into which the grapes were thrown, to be crushed by the feet of the treaders (Isaiah 63:1-3, etc.). The juice flowed down through the pipe into the lower vat, from which it was removed into jars (Haggai 2:16) or where it was allowed to remain during the first fermentation. (International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia)

For emphasis, it must be again noted that the freshly pressed grape juice begins the process of fermentation almost immediately. The process is that of the yeast converting the sugar into alcohol. In modern settings winemakers have ways of stopping the fermentation process to make the wine sweeter if desired. During ancient times the process would continue until the sugars were consumed.

Fermentation: In the climate of Palestine fermentation begins almost immediately, frequently on the same day for juice pressed out in the morning, but never later than the next day. At first a slight foam appears on the surface of the liquid, and from that moment, according to Jewish tradition, it is liable to the wine-tithe (Ma`aseroth 1:7). The action rapidly becomes more violent, and while it is in progress the liquid must be kept in jars or in a vat, for it would burst even the newest and strongest of wine-skins (Job 32:19). Within about a week this violent fermentation subsides, and the wine is transferred to other jars or strong wine-skins (Mark 2:22 and parallel's), in which it undergoes the secondary fermentation. ... At the end of 40 days it was regarded as properly "wine" and could be offered as a drink offering (`Edhuyyoth 6:1). (International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia)

Drinking the wine at earlier points would have meant that it would have less alcoholic content, but after the secondary fermentation was complete, there would be little change in alcoholic content. Modern wines (excluding those that are fortified, meaning they have extra alcohol added) vary from 8-14% alcohol. As fermentation stops when the sugar level drops below 0.1%, the alcohol content is dependant on the sugar content of the grapes. Grapes grown in different areas, and different types of grapes, will yield varying alcoholic content.

http://www.bibleistrue.com/qna/qnadrink.htm#NonAlcoholic
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« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2007, 03:10:52 AM »

I now hold in my hands liquid bliss. Give it a try, Matthew! Cheers!

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« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2007, 03:52:05 AM »

Yep...those Benedictines in Europe produce some good ale and other herbal medicinal beverages...like that Chimay Ale...bout 9% alcohol.

james

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« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2007, 09:41:31 AM »

How does Matthew take The Holy Communion if he does not consume alcohol? It seems to me that the wine used for Holy Communion is actually  of higher alcohol content than more commonly used table wine.

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« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2007, 10:22:01 AM »

How does Matthew take The Holy Communion if he does not consume alcohol? It seems to me that the wine used for Holy Communion is actually  of higher alcohol content than more commonly used table wine.

Thomas 

Not to accuse all Copts (and those in communion with them) of holding these beliefs, but I've read a coptic theologian's arguments for the Wedding at Cana's water-to-wine transformation being water-to-grape juice... It is possible that this is the school of thought that our friend seems to be coming from.  I personally think it's Moslem influence on our Christian brethren, but who am I to say?  Our EO monks produce wine (alchoholic), Metaxa, and Ouzo in their Monasteries.  If you ask them, they say don't get drunk - only drink the alchohol for the enjoyment of the flavors.

Besides, I'm sure that if we were all tea-totallers (sp?) from the beginning, much of our fantastic theology wouldn't have been written (Wine - friend of the Theologian for many centuries)!
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« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2007, 10:50:56 AM »

This may be a forum comprised of Orthodox members, but since I know none of you personally, I cannot know the sincerity of your Orthodoxy. You may be St. John Chrysostom, but then again, you may be Rasputin.

Matthew, I have to anticipate that you won't take to heart what I am about to say, but I feel I have to give it a try. But then again, the not listening is really at the heart of the problem.

It's pretty obvious that you take for granted that you are a lot closer to Crysostom than to Rasputin. I see the opposite. You have a history, not only here but elsewhere, of a lot of rather self-important agitation. I haven't counted, but it's a safe bet that since you arrived here, you have started more topics than anyone else, and at times are starting a majority of topics overall. And almost inevitably the reaction is, "what planet did that notion come from?" You have a love of the strange and eccentric; you seem repelled by the ordinary. It is very hard to get you to take instruction, so that for example when we get to the subject of wine, I expect you to hew to your self-righteous abstentiousness in the face of the reality that unfermented grape juice was only made possible by Mr. Welch.

I case you haven't noticed, we are all sinners, and we are all limited by that and by our own human nature. Orthodox praxis is possible here, in the manner in which we converse and in the attitudes with which we approach that conversation. But at some level Orthodoxy has to be about our fealty to our churches. You can be good Orthodox, or bad Orthodox; but (I am told) you are Orthodox. What I say may be Orthodox in content, but I remain outside that church.

What is most striking to me, after your unorthodox opinions (note the small-o) is how you pass from one enthusiasm to another, without any kind of history between them. One week it's Lamsa; another week, it's something else. It would only take a little introspection to notice that none of these informs each other, and that your certainty and changeability are your only constants. Therefore it seems to me that this latest opinionation of yours is worth as much as all the rest: it is the whim of the day, and in a week or so it will pass, and you will find a new hobby horse to ride, and this one would be as lost as the snows of yesteryear were it not for the convenient record kept by the forum. For it hardly ever seems that you are informed by your interactions here; the best that we are able to do, it appears, is to from time to time cut short one enthusiasm, and even then you are prone to revisit them.

And then there is the whole copyright discussion. I think on one level the issue is subtle and worthy of better discussion, but as far as your participation is concerned, it's really all about your unwillingness to admit that it is all about you not having to pay for what you take. In other words, it's about you being unwilling to admit that you are sinning like mad. In your heart of hearts, it seems to me that you know that you aren't a sinner, so you are rationalizing like made to protect that belief.

So when it comes to this thread, what you are really saying is, "I'm a pretty damn good Orthodox Christian, and the rest of you aren't."
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« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2007, 11:11:32 AM »

Quote
Not to accuse all Copts (and those in communion with them) of holding these beliefs, but I've read a coptic theologian's arguments for the Wedding at Cana's water-to-wine transformation being water-to-grape juice...

Yes, I remember you bringing this up a while ago. First off, the figure in question is not really a "theologian", he was just a priest expressing his personal opinion (our system of electing priests is vastly different to that of the EO's--having a theological degree is not pre-requisite).

In any event, I'm not sure how the above statement fits in within the context of being a response to Thomas' post regarding the nature of the substance offered as the Eucharist. I don't ever recall drinking grape juice from the chalice of a Coptic Orthodox Church. In fact, my father is responsible for purchasing the wine used for the altar dedicated to St. Cyril of Alexandria--it is sacramental wine imported from Jerusalem, Israel.

Quote
I personally think it's Moslem influence on our Christian brethren, but who am I to say?

I think the strict prohibition against alcohol that is generally promoted by our Church leaders is more motivated by a solicious pastoral application of the, "everything is lawful, but not everything is profitable" principle. What better way is there to prevent youth (who are the primary concern of the clergy in relation to the subject of alcohol(-abuse)) from doing the unprofitable (and potentially unlawful--depending on how it is controlled etc.), then to cast the impression that the unprofitable is indeed unlawful. Now, it may not be technically correct, but the Church's concern is not for technical correctness, but for the salvation of souls. Better to ruin one man's moderately pursued leisure drinking and save another from potential alcohol abuse (which is often the unplanned/unintentioned fate of the "leisure drinker"), I say. And from personal experience, I must say, it seems to work. If I tell you that I do not know of, or have not heard of, one leisure drinker in my parish, you may think that's a sad story; but if I tell you that I furthermore do not know of, or have not heard of, anyone in my parish dealing with any sort of a drinking problem, then you may begin to understand the wisdom behind the Church's approach to this matter.

Quote
Our EO monks produce wine (alchoholic), Metaxa, and Ouzo in their Monasteries.

Most (if not all?) Coptic Orthodox monasteries in Egypt produce their own sacramental wine. Metaxa and Ouzo hey? I don't suppose you guys have a sacramental purpose for those ones.  Wink
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« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2007, 12:08:05 PM »

Therefore it seems to me that this latest opinionation of yours is worth as much as all the rest: it is the whim of the day, and in a week or so it will pass, and you will find a new hobby horse to ride, and this one would be as lost as the snows of yesteryear were it not for the convenient record kept by the forum.

Firstly, let me applaud you on that excellent line. Very clever!  Cheesy


I think I can sum this up:

1.) Parish priests, when there is still communion left in the cup, must drink it all if it is not going to be used. You can't tell me there isn't a minor buzz if there weren't that many people at communion, and thus, wine left over.

2.) Unless he is abstaining from all communion, he is a hypocrite.

3.) Matthew is a tee-totaling monkey trying to write Shakespeare while eating an apple pie and watching a Civil War documentary. But what if the apples in the pie have fermented? *GASP* Scandal!
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« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2007, 12:17:18 PM »

Unless he is abstaining from all communion, he is a hypocrite.

... or he is a rock-ribbed beleiver in transsubstantiation....
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« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2007, 12:27:34 PM »

EA,
What about that brownish, fermented from bread drink that Eritreans make (Ethiopians too?)?  Isn't that alchoholic?  Have any idea what strength?  The Eritreans at my parish occasionally bring it to lunch after Liturgy.  I'm not too fond of it.
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« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2007, 12:28:18 PM »

Matthew, I have to anticipate that you won't take to heart what I am about to say, but I feel I have to give it a try. But then again, the not listening is really at the heart of the problem.

It's pretty obvious that you take for granted that you are a lot closer to Crysostom than to Rasputin. I see the opposite. You have a history, not only here but elsewhere, of a lot of rather self-important agitation. I haven't counted, but it's a safe bet that since you arrived here, you have started more topics than anyone else, and at times are starting a majority of topics overall. And almost inevitably the reaction is, "what planet did that notion come from?" You have a love of the strange and eccentric; you seem repelled by the ordinary. It is very hard to get you to take instruction, so that for example when we get to the subject of wine, I expect you to hew to your self-righteous abstentiousness in the face of the reality that unfermented grape juice was only made possible by Mr. Welch.

I case you haven't noticed, we are all sinners, and we are all limited by that and by our own human nature. Orthodox praxis is possible here, in the manner in which we converse and in the attitudes with which we approach that conversation. But at some level Orthodoxy has to be about our fealty to our churches. You can be good Orthodox, or bad Orthodox; but (I am told) you are Orthodox. What I say may be Orthodox in content, but I remain outside that church.

What is most striking to me, after your unorthodox opinions (note the small-o) is how you pass from one enthusiasm to another, without any kind of history between them. One week it's Lamsa; another week, it's something else. It would only take a little introspection to notice that none of these informs each other, and that your certainty and changeability are your only constants. Therefore it seems to me that this latest opinionation of yours is worth as much as all the rest: it is the whim of the day, and in a week or so it will pass, and you will find a new hobby horse to ride, and this one would be as lost as the snows of yesteryear were it not for the convenient record kept by the forum. For it hardly ever seems that you are informed by your interactions here; the best that we are able to do, it appears, is to from time to time cut short one enthusiasm, and even then you are prone to revisit them.

And then there is the whole copyright discussion. I think on one level the issue is subtle and worthy of better discussion, but as far as your participation is concerned, it's really all about your unwillingness to admit that it is all about you not having to pay for what you take. In other words, it's about you being unwilling to admit that you are sinning like mad. In your heart of hearts, it seems to me that you know that you aren't a sinner, so you are rationalizing like made to protect that belief.

So when it comes to this thread, what you are really saying is, "I'm a pretty damn good Orthodox Christian, and the rest of you aren't."

An early nomination for OC.net's "post of the year"!!!  This one is worthy of Oscar buzz!
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« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2007, 12:32:55 PM »

In some ways, M777 is like the Michael Jordan of internet fora.

No, he's not a prolific scorer or a hardened defender, but I think of a line I used to hear a lot with respect to MJ.  They used to say "you can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him".

It's like M777's posts.  You can't stop them, you can only *hope* to contain them.
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« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2007, 04:07:25 PM »

I can't imagine a teetotaling God who would institute a Eucharist of consecrated wine. 

There is a difference between the drinking of small amounts of wine in a religious ceremony, or the moderate drinking of low alcohol wine during a feast, and drunkenness. That Jesus said that the wedding guests will fast once the bridegroom is no longer with them implies that, with him gone, we are to fast and abstain from alcohol. Orthodox monks take the vow of the Nazarite, refusing to cut their hair, and abstaining from strong drink.
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« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2007, 04:11:42 PM »

You're living in a self-constructed bubble, Matthew. I've been there. Break out of it, man!
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« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2007, 05:02:12 PM »

You're living in a self-constructed bubble, Matthew. I've been there. Break out of it, man!

Good advice!

Matthew,

You have received a lot of great responses; some good-natured ribbings and some with extra good advice. You are much too young to be so stuffy. Wait another 40 years and try again. By God's grace, you might not want to. Grin

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« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2007, 08:42:19 PM »

You're living in a self-constructed bubble, Matthew. I've been there. Break out of it, man!

Alcoholism is genetic and both sides of my family have a history of alcoholism. I'd rather find some other way to have fun than be part of that scene. What you consider a "teetotaler," I call someone who reveres the temple of God.

My point in starting this thread is that one cannot live outside a bubble, in the real world, on an internet forum.
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« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2007, 08:53:45 PM »

Alcoholism is genetic and both sides of my family have a history of alcoholism. I'd rather find some other way to have fun than be part of that scene. What you consider a "teetotaler," I call someone who reveres the temple of God.

And my family's in large part Scots-Irish, so what's your point?
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« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2007, 09:08:40 PM »

Alcoholism is genetic and both sides of my family have a history of alcoholism. I'd rather find some other way to have fun than be part of that scene. What you consider a "teetotaler," I call someone who reveres the temple of God.

Matthew,

And certainly, it is your right to abstain from alcohol; whatever your reason. However, it's not appropriate to reconstruct history and, in the process, invent an accommodating Christ to conform with the misconstruction.
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« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2007, 11:07:18 PM »

Both my grandfathers were alcoholics. One grandfather eventually cleaned himself up, the other abandoned his family, lived on the streets, and eventually died of cirrhosis of the liver. My stepfather was a severe alcoholic, abused my mother and us, and eventually committed suicide.

As with all of God's gifts, alcohol can be abused. Doesn't make it evil in itself. I enjoy alcohol in moderate quantities---I used to have drinks and theological discussion with my priest. I don't see how Jesus would be upset---he drank quite a bit of it during the Last Supper.
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« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2007, 12:57:29 AM »


Posted on: Today at 10:07:18 PMPosted by: lubeltri
As with all of God's gifts, alcohol can be abused. Doesn't make it evil in itself. I enjoy alcohol in moderate quantities---I used to have drinks and theological discussion with my priest. I don't see how Jesus would be upset---he drank quite a bit of it during the Last Supper.

These are the most blasphemous words I have encountered on this Site yet. I pray for your soul.

I pray that nobody visits this thread and reads this post and think it has something to do with Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2007, 01:00:40 AM »

These are the most blasphemous words I have encountered on this Site yet. I pray for your soul.

I pray that nobody visits this thread and reads this post and think it has something to do with Orthodoxy.

Get over yourself...Christ drank, heck, Christ got drunk...deal with it. As I said before, I dont trust anyone more pious than Christ.
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« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2007, 01:01:01 AM »

Talk about an over-reaction!

What exactly was so "blasphemous" about that post?
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« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2007, 01:01:32 AM »

Quote
These are the most blasphemous words I have encountered on this Site yet.

Sheesh, I must be slacking. I'll try harder. Grin
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« Reply #101 on: January 18, 2007, 01:01:39 AM »

Quote
Christ got drunk

Okay, now that is blasphemous.
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« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2007, 01:02:49 AM »

Yes, I remember you bringing this up a while ago. First off, the figure in question is not really a "theologian", he was just a priest expressing his personal opinion (our system of electing priests is vastly different to that of the EO's--having a theological degree is not pre-requisite).

True... The book did have the approval of the Pope, but that's neither here nor there, as it doesn't imply his stating that it is dogmatically binding or whatnot.

I suppose my response was more to the others in the thread, but I quoted Thomas' to propose a theory for his rejection to alchohol that Thomas alludes to.
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« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2007, 01:05:54 AM »

Posted on: Today at 10:07:18 PMPosted by: lubeltri
As with all of God's gifts, alcohol can be abused. Doesn't make it evil in itself. I enjoy alcohol in moderate quantities---I used to have drinks and theological discussion with my priest. I don't see how Jesus would be upset---he drank quite a bit of it during the Last Supper.

These are the most blasphemous words I have encountered on this Site yet. I pray for your soul.

In what way are these words blasphmeous? To have ever have partaken of the Passover, Christ would have had to have drank at least four cups of honest-to-goodness wine. The Seder required it.
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« Reply #104 on: January 18, 2007, 01:07:50 AM »

EkhristosAnesti

You walked into this.

I am surprised that you would not see the wickedness in Lubeltris' post.

But no soon as yuo agreed the the point of his remarks were made clear.
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« Reply #105 on: January 18, 2007, 01:10:22 AM »

Riddikulus

Stop kidding yourself.

You can't see through 'HOW' the point was made?

The way he put it?

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« Reply #106 on: January 18, 2007, 01:14:00 AM »

Asteriktos

Don't be so hard on yourself.

I read your posts.

You are doing just fine already.
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« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2007, 01:14:24 AM »

Amdetsion,

Christ drank wine--fact.

Christ got drunk? I don't see how that's possible, since He is sinless and the Scriptures testify to the fact that drunkenness is a sin.

However, I didn't take lubeltri's post as implying that Christ ever got drunk (though he can correct me on that one if he so chooses). Was your response to him based upon interpreting it in that manner, or do you just have a problem with the idea that the consumption of alcohol per se is not inherently sinful?
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« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2007, 01:19:09 AM »

EkhristosAnesti

I read through Lubeltri's sarcasm.

He was intent on serving up Christ' consumption of wine as a common act. Thus drunkness was possible.

You and I both know that this kind of diatribe is loose and wicked
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« Reply #109 on: January 18, 2007, 01:26:52 AM »

Riddikulus

Stop kidding yourself.

You can't see through 'HOW' the point was made?

The way he put it?

OK, let's assume that I am kidding myself. Making that statment merely allows you to dodge my question, doesn't it?  Grin

Again I ask. How/why is the post blasphemous. I would appreciate your clarification on why you make such an ascertion.
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« Reply #110 on: January 18, 2007, 01:29:50 AM »

Sheesh, I must be slacking. I'll try harder. Grin

I just noticed this. LOL
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« Reply #111 on: January 18, 2007, 01:37:10 AM »

EkhristosAnesti

I read through Lubeltri's sarcasm.

He was intent on serving up Christ' consumption of wine as a common act. Thus drunkness was possible.

You and I both know that this kind of diatribe is loose and wicked

Christ's consumption of wine was a common act. Wine was the common beverage of the time. It was served at every evening meal, probably more frequently. Are you implying that Christ behaved out of the norm and sort to avoid a cup of wine with an evening meal because of the possibility of drunkeness?
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« Reply #112 on: January 18, 2007, 01:40:37 AM »

Any use of Christ's name and his Holiness in a common way is no good. This is glib use of the Holy faith. It does not raise the beauty of God above the normal.

It is like how a protestant would speak. They speak like they do not fear God.

I hope you do not want scripture?

If so I will gladly load scriptural readings in tomorrow.
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« Reply #113 on: January 18, 2007, 01:42:56 AM »

I give up. Roll Eyes I'm going to make inquiries about becoming a buddhist.
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« Reply #114 on: January 18, 2007, 01:44:56 AM »

Riddikulus

No..

I am saying that true believers are very much removed from measuring Christ in simple terms.

We know Him only by His greatness.

What was common about Him thus takes on non-common feel and meaning.

Its respect.
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« Reply #115 on: January 18, 2007, 01:49:10 AM »

Buhdist!!

Finish learning orthodoxy.

Thats the real challenge.

Learn to fear your creature.

Thats also a real challenge.
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« Reply #116 on: January 18, 2007, 01:52:53 AM »


However, I didn't take lubeltri's post as implying that Christ ever got drunk (though he can correct me on that one if he so chooses).

Of course not. Christ did not get drunk and would have disapproved of drunkenness.

I enjoy alcohol, but I am not so silly as to drink enough to where I lose control. I drink for the taste, not for the intoxication.

To be honest, I did not drink at all until four years ago, when I was 22. I hated the stuff.
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« Reply #117 on: January 18, 2007, 01:55:19 AM »

Posted on: Today at 10:07:18 PMPosted by: lubeltri
As with all of God's gifts, alcohol can be abused. Doesn't make it evil in itself. I enjoy alcohol in moderate quantities---I used to have drinks and theological discussion with my priest. I don't see how Jesus would be upset---he drank quite a bit of it during the Last Supper.

These are the most blasphemous words I have encountered on this Site yet. I pray for your soul.

I pray that nobody visits this thread and reads this post and think it has something to do with Orthodoxy.

Have you ever been to a seder? Over the course of the ceremonial meal, Jews take quite a few sips of wine. Not enough to get drunk, of course, but significantly more than the amount of consecrated wine we receive every Sunday.
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« Reply #118 on: January 18, 2007, 01:56:04 AM »

Buhdist!!

Finish learning orthodoxy.

Thats the real challenge.

Learn to fear your creature.

Thats also a real challenge.

It's Buddhist!
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« Reply #119 on: January 18, 2007, 01:57:57 AM »

Have you ever been to a seder? Over the course of the ceremonial meal, Jews take quite a few sips of wine. Not enough to get drunk, of course, but significantly more than the amount of consecrated wine we receive every Sunday.

I think you might be wasting your time and energy. Become a buddhist - I'm considering it. (Just kidding.)
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« Reply #120 on: January 18, 2007, 02:02:01 AM »

Amdetsion,

Thank you for praying for me. God knows, we all need it.

Christ, 100% God, also become 100% one of us. We should rejoice in that fact. Of course he drank wine. Plenty of it. That's what you drank when clean water was not always available.
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« Reply #121 on: January 18, 2007, 02:10:35 AM »

If you want to see some real blasphemy, Amdetsion, consider one of the wedding scenes in Four Weddings and a Funeral, where the plastered Anglican minister blesses the couple "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spigot."
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« Reply #122 on: January 18, 2007, 12:18:58 PM »

If you want to see some real blasphemy, Amdetsion, consider one of the wedding scenes in Four Weddings and a Funeral, where the plastered Anglican minister blesses the couple "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spigot."

Actually, Rowan Atkinson's character was not plastered, nor even under the influence of any alcohol, but incredibly nervous.  It was his first wedding and he was so scared of screwing something up, he actually did.

If you're going to cite something as an example, make sure you're citing it correctly.

That is all.


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« Reply #123 on: January 18, 2007, 01:46:18 PM »

It's Buddhist!

Correction noted.
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« Reply #124 on: January 18, 2007, 01:49:34 PM »

If you want to see some real blasphemy, Amdetsion, consider one of the wedding scenes in Four Weddings and a Funeral, where the plastered Anglican minister blesses the couple "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spigot."

Why would anybody watch this stuff?

I avoid ALL the religious comedy.

Christianity is not funny.
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« Reply #125 on: January 18, 2007, 01:52:51 PM »

Why would anybody watch this stuff?

I avoid ALL the religious comedy.

Christianity is not funny.

Well maybe they were watching the movie and didn't KNOW that a blasphemous scene was coming up. I don't think it's possible to live in the West and walk down the street without witnessing inappropriate things. You make it out like a Christian can live in a bubble always making black or white choices.

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« Reply #126 on: January 18, 2007, 01:58:18 PM »

Why would anybody watch this stuff?

I avoid ALL the religious comedy.

Christianity is not funny.

Well, I haven't been struck by lightning yet...so apparently God does have a sense of humour.
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« Reply #127 on: January 18, 2007, 01:59:36 PM »

Well maybe they were watching the movie and didn't KNOW that a blasphemous scene was coming up. I don't think it's possible to live in the West and walk down the street without witnessing inappropriate things. You make it out like a Christian can live in a bubble always making black or white choices.

Anastasios


O.K. That happens.

Why would this kind of sacralege be repeated then?

Is not enough that as you say a person is caught off guard with the sceen on the show?
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« Reply #128 on: January 18, 2007, 02:02:41 PM »

Well, I haven't been struck by lightning yet...so apparently God does have a sense of humour.

For your sake I pray you are right.

To me; to take the chance is foolish win or loose.

Its not worth risking.
 
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« Reply #129 on: January 18, 2007, 02:05:04 PM »

Are we still on the subject?
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« Reply #130 on: January 18, 2007, 02:05:54 PM »

Arghhh...where is my beloved shot glass & Patron

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« Reply #131 on: January 18, 2007, 02:10:07 PM »

For your sake I pray you are right.

To me; to take the chance is foolish win or loose.

Its not worth risking.

Sorry, I dont buy pascal's wager...If God were as sadistic and cold as you suggest, and even if I knew with absolute certainty that this was the case, I'd simply give him the two fingers (or palm of the hand, or middle finger, or sole of the shoe, or whatever your culture believes in a offensive gesture) and be done with it.

'Far better it is to have a stout heart always and suffer one's share of evils, than to be ever fearing what may happen and never incur a mischance.' -- Herodotus
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« Reply #132 on: January 18, 2007, 02:12:22 PM »

Actually, Rowan Atkinson's character was not plastered, nor even under the influence of any alcohol, but incredibly nervous.  It was his first wedding and he was so scared of screwing something up, he actually did.

If you're going to cite something as an example, make sure you're citing it correctly.

That is all.

Well, I did see it almost 13 years ago. Memory fades.

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« Reply #133 on: January 18, 2007, 03:11:18 PM »

Sorry, I dont buy pascal's wager...If God were as sadistic and cold as you suggest, and even if I knew with absolute certainty that this was the case, I'd simply give him the two fingers (or palm of the hand, or middle finger, or sole of the shoe, or whatever your culture believes in a offensive gesture) and be done with it.

'Far better it is to have a stout heart always and suffer one's share of evils, than to be ever fearing what may happen and never incur a mischance.' -- Herodotus

Absolutely shocking and sad commentary. Truely shocking words.

Herodotus?

How does this person figure into orthodox christianity?

I do not believe he was an Orthodox Christian. So excusement if I ignor his points of view.

I have a hard time agreeing with the thoughts of pagans such as Herodotus no matter how logical or smart they may be.

That's my personnel choice.

It seems that if one orthodox person find it OK to quote the thinking of a pagan or heretic than another should also be allowed to quote the thoughts of Isamic or devil worshippers ( in example) if he feels (somehow) that quoting from such will underline his point during the discourse or discussion on an orthodox subject or condition. Who is to say one is worse than the other?

The virtues of orthodoxy can be confused in such chaos.

We must enrich our discourses and concerns small are large with the beauty of our true faith which comes down to us from our holy fathers. Even if we are in disagreement. Or angry.

Without this we can not be sure that the faith of our fathers is being raised and expoounded upon to increase the faith of the beleivers of the Holy Church. (That is why we are all posting on this forum right?). for me the answer is yes. I have no other purpose when posting on this forum but to try and learn or share the Orthodox teaching, its beauty and faith so that we can live more truely orthodox lives; which of course is preparing for eternity while we live.

Anything else is glib useless talk. Which benefits knowone. This equates to 'idle' chatter. The lord hates such useless speaking and has rendered it "sinful".

So I recommend that orthodox stick with ONLY Orthodox Christian thinkers particularly when the subject or the condition is orthodox in nature and or intent such as this website and forum.

This thread is questioning the "orthodoxy" of this site. Quoting Herodotus may just prove out why this thread was started in the first place.

No offense but I am compelled to ask your orthodox affilliation and background?

Are you a recent convert to the Holy Church? or were you raised up in the Holy Church?

Please email me directly so as not to disturb this thread.

May the Lord protect you and all of us making us a likeness of Himself placing us far away from the matters of this destitute and condemed world.

We wait on the Lord

Fr. Deacon Amde Tsion
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« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2007, 03:24:09 PM »

It seems that if one orthodox person find it OK to quote the thinking of a pagan or heretic than another should also be allowed to quote the thoughts of Isamic or devil worshippers ( in example) if he feels (somehow) that quoting from such will underline his point during the discourse or discussion on an orthodox subject or condition. Who is to say one is worse than the other?

Well, if you insist I can quote a moslem as well...though I must give ozgeorge credit for first bringing her to the attention of the forum.

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« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2007, 03:31:01 PM »

You can't tell me this doesn't make you laugh:

"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade on high and said, 'O, Lord, bless this thy Holy Hand Grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large chu---"
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« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2007, 03:40:19 PM »

Arghhh...where is my beloved shot glass & Patron

Pásamelo a mí también, hermano...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2007, 03:50:18 PM »

Amdetsion

"Consequently we must be conversant with poets, with historians, with orators, indeed with all men who may further our soul's salvation... If, then, there is any affinity between the two literatures, a knowledge of them should be useful to us in our search for truth; if not, the comparison, by emphasizing the contrast, will be of no small service in strengthening our regard for the better one." - Basil the Great, Address to Young Men on the Right Use of Greek Literature, 2-3

"We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably [before Christ came] are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them." - Justin Martyr, First Apology, 46

Are Basil and Justin the type of people you meant to be hitting with your anti-intellectual flailing? Or perhaps you meant to hit the numerous Church Fathers who were so respectful of Greek thought that they had come up with a theory that the Greeks had taken their ideas from Moses and the Jews?
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« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2007, 04:04:15 PM »

"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade on high and said, 'O, Lord, bless this thy Holy Hand Grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large chu---"

---"skip a bit, brother."   Wink
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« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2007, 04:33:15 PM »

 Grin
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« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2007, 04:34:17 PM »

 Cheesy

"And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."
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« Reply #141 on: January 18, 2007, 04:34:49 PM »

"Now did the Lord say, 'First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the number of the counting, be reached, then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naught in my sight, shall snuff it.'"


Hey! You beat me!
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« Reply #142 on: January 18, 2007, 04:35:46 PM »

I changed it.
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« Reply #143 on: January 18, 2007, 04:37:37 PM »

One!... Two!... Five!

I have to go watch this now.
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« Reply #144 on: January 19, 2007, 12:15:26 AM »

Personally, I like the quote fom Herodotus. The quote from the Muslim? about loving God for Himself is also very wise in it's essence even if he failed to apply it correctly in the particulars of his life. But it may be that I am too easily impressed- I also saw some wisdom in the Mae West quote............

  Shouldn't we quote copiously from any source that mirrors wisdom and truth? The Fathers quote from a lot of heterodox sources to illustrate their points. Even St. Paul quoted pagan Greek poets in the New Testament.......

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« Reply #145 on: January 19, 2007, 12:16:50 PM »

Asteriktos,  greekischristian

Read my post I said:

"ITS MY PERSONNEL CHOICE"

I then drew my conclusions with the preface "I RECOMMEND".

Quoting other writters particularly the pagan Greeks is up to you.

greekischristian you are well within your right to quote some Godless muslim. You could have just as well quoted Charles Manson or Hitler and it would not really change my point at all. (I did not read your muslim quote of course)

I have heard people quote the rancid writtings of bigomists and racists to my face; sometimes not knowing where the quote or thought actually came from. Some people (you may have seen on TV news) have spoken weird quotes and phrases in public not knowing or understanding the real intent of and source of the phraseology or quote and ended up fired or having to resign public office for this kind of senseless error. These errors created public outrage in many cases. This is becoming more prevelent world wide but is common in America which is built on a racist system so it is ripe for this kind of error in judgement.

Who we quote clearly creates a binding relationship with you and that person and that persons conditions and beleifs by association. As an Orthodox Christian I do not want to find myself in this situation. SO I CHOOSE not to follow the thoughts of pagans. I may read modern writters from time to time pagan or otherwise. But I will never quote them within a religious scenario or condition. FOR ME it is irresponsible and foolish. There is a time and place for everything. (Who made that quote?...I do not know.)

For those of you who are happy relating to people outside the faith for your religious guidance that is your choice. Protestants have been doing this from their heretical, recent beginnings. So why not. Suit yourself. Do your thing ( Who made those quotes?)

I simply "recommended" that such is not a good practice.

Remember St. Paul said..."I speak by permission".

He was given authority directly from God to remove the curse of sin from unGodly men and place the crown of glory upon them. He did that.

St. Paul as for all the apostles are justified in all their actions.

If a Bishop or priest quotes a pagan he is justified as a servant of God in the tradition of the apostles. if he is wrong than he is responsible for whatever sin he causes others to commit from his errors.

What are you doing quoting pagans now on this thread?  Remember this thread is challenging the "orthoodxy" of this site.

Are the you the type that feels that you are a new age saint or Bishop of the Holy Church?

You all take it lightly that you must be conscious of what you say.

Next I am going to post significant scriptural readings and writtings from the Church fathers that support this critical issue. But I will not post it on this thread.

Peace from  God

Fr. Deacon Amde Tsion



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« Reply #146 on: January 19, 2007, 12:31:06 PM »

Fr. Deacon,

With all due respect, your reccomendations came off as calling the use of quotations from pre-Christian pagan Greeks as sinful.

As greekischristian demonstrated, our holy Fathers Basil and Justin, among many others, lauded the use of these philosophers in the search for Truth.  Are their assertions sinful, as well?

Again, you can decide to keep them out of your defense of the Truth all you want, but to lambast others who are only following the lead of our venerable Fathers for doing so might give those outside of the Church the wrong idea, don't you think?

And how are we to lead those to the Truth when we argue amongst ourselves regarding a practice that is orthodox?
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« Reply #147 on: January 19, 2007, 12:52:40 PM »

Fr. Deacon,

With all due respect, your reccomendations came off as calling the use of quotations from pre-Christian pagan Greeks as sinful.

As greekischristian demonstrated, our holy Fathers Basil and Justin, among many others, lauded the use of these philosophers in the search for Truth.  Are their assertions sinful, as well?

Again, you can decide to keep them out of your defense of the Truth all you want, but to lambast others who are only following the lead of our venerable Fathers for doing so might give those outside of the Church the wrong idea, don't you think?

And how are we to lead those to the Truth when we argue amongst ourselves regarding a practice that is orthodox?

The Church fathers are justified as i said.

We are to adhere to the intent of thier actions.

Is that clear enough?

They are in a world full of wickedness they are using what is at thier disposal to serve an end.

If we quote like them we msut have the same end.

Do you see this?

So don't quote who St Basil quoted .... quote what he taught from who he quoted.

Is that confusing?

I hope not.


Fr. Deacon Amde Tsion
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« Reply #148 on: January 19, 2007, 01:06:28 PM »

"ITS MY PERSONNEL CHOICE"

I then drew my conclusions with the preface "I RECOMMEND".

And we responded to your bad recommendation. These forums are for discussion, not pontificating.

Quote
greekischristian you are well within your right to quote some Godless muslim. You could have just as well quoted Charles Manson or Hitler and it would not really change my point at all.

I've been known to quote Hitler, and quite frequenlty reference Goebbels.

Quote
(I did not read your muslim quote of course)

LMAO...if you didn't even read it, how can you object to it...Rabia has much wisdom in many of her writings, I would recommend them to you.

Quote
I have heard people quote the rancid writtings of bigomists and racists to my face; sometimes not knowing where the quote or thought actually came from. Some people (you may have seen on TV news) have spoken weird quotes and phrases in public not knowing or understanding the real intent of and source of the phraseology or quote and ended up fired or having to resign public office for this kind of senseless error. These errors created public outrage in many cases. This is becoming more prevelent world wide but is common in America which is built on a racist system so it is ripe for this kind of error in judgement.

So you support ad hominem based attacks? Focus on the content rather than the source, wisdom can come from the most unexpected of places. Roll Eyes

Quote
Who we quote clearly creates a binding relationship with you and that person and that persons conditions and beleifs by association. As an Orthodox Christian I do not want to find myself in this situation. SO I CHOOSE not to follow the thoughts of pagans. I may read modern writters from time to time pagan or otherwise. But I will never quote them within a religious scenario or condition. FOR ME it is irresponsible and foolish.

Or rather it is an acknowledgement that wisdom can be found throughout all of creation and not merely in the context of one religious sect.

Quote
There is a time and place for everything. (Who made that quote?...I do not know.)

It's a paraphrasing of Ecclesiastes.

Quote
For those of you who are happy relating to people outside the faith for your religious guidance that is your choice. Protestants have been doing this from their heretical, recent beginnings. So why not. Suit yourself. Do your thing ( Who made those quotes?)

Actually the protestants tend to advocate sola scriptura...they were amongst the least likely to cite ancient sources in their defence.

Quote
What are you doing quoting pagans now on this thread?  Remember this thread is challenging the "orthoodxy" of this site.

So we quote pagan philosophers as did the fathers of the Church, and our methodology remains the same as that of the Fathers.

Quote
Are the you the type that feels that you are a new age saint or Bishop of the Holy Church?

No reason to stop doing theology in the Church...a failure to evolve and develop theology will simply relegate the church to irrelevance. I see no reason why the faithful should not read the ancient sources, Christian, pagan, and otherwise, as well as later sources in order that they may learn and develop the theology of the Church.
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« Reply #149 on: January 19, 2007, 04:11:25 PM »

greekischristian;

Excellent post. (And the wise and moving quote by Rabia al-Adawiyya brought a lump to my throat.)

I would also like to add that the Church Fathers were not always Church Fathers. They are only such because of the Church's recognition of their wisdom. They didn't wake up one day and say to themselves, "Now that I am a Church Father, I am justified in quoting whomever I like."

If we (the Church) are intelligent enough to recognise the Church Fathers as a source of wisdom, then we too are justified in quoting from whomever we consider is speaking in wisdom. The source of all wisdom, all truth is the same source; for Christian, Muslim, pagan and whomever.
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« Reply #150 on: January 19, 2007, 09:51:20 PM »

Amdetsion,

I have observed that you are basically trying to get people to "behave better" and be more serious in their faith and respect for God. 

There were people who were "Fools for Christ" as already mentioned.  This is an established "type" of saint in the church...so are you saying that their actions are no longer holy because they wern't "serious"?? 

You never did responde to many people's posts about the Wedding at Canaan and the miracle there.  How does this impress upon your opinion? 

Most of the quotes quoted about drinking being bad were from the OT, and Christ said that he came to fulfill the Law, so maybe his fulfillment was to bring us into a new era of enjoying wine?  How can you say for sure what was His will at Canaan?

Also, God is Love, if we decide to love him by enjoying ourselves who's to say we are being sacriligious?  You and ascetics?  Tons of desert fathers drank wine, are we more holy than them?  There are TONS of stories of saints being shown "ordinary" people who are sinners like the rest of us, but are shown to be holier than the monks, who spend their whole lives in asceticism.  So who is to say that one way is better than the other? 

I think that we can adore God and respect him in the way that you are saying, and still enjoy life and the promise of Resurrection, without being tea-toters (I think that's the right phrase). 

Pastorally speaking, if you were put in a situation where you had to minister to construction workers who smoke, drink, curse, make lude jokes about everything including God, what would you do?  Cry out that they are being rediculous?  How pastoral is that?  Rather, I think we are called to come to their level.  That doesn't mean that we have to do what they do, but we have to approach them in love. 

Anyway, i've kind of gone off topic, let me know what you think about any of these things.  I hope i've been clear...maybe not though...
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« Reply #151 on: January 19, 2007, 10:31:59 PM »

.....without being tea-toters (I think that's the right phrase). 

Teetotal "pledged to total abstinence from intoxicating drink," 1834, possibly formed from total with a reduplication of the initial T- for emphasis (T-totally "totally," not in an abstinence sense, is recorded in Kentucky dialect from 1832 and is possibly older in Irish-Eng.)."

Teetotaler "Webster (1847) calls teetotaler "a cant word formed in England."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=teetotal

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« Reply #152 on: January 20, 2007, 12:38:05 AM »

serb1389

I was more than certain that I had made my last post on this thread. But your post has compelled me to respond.

I think you were clear.

Yes I want people who are orthodox to be an example of holiness in the world. That inlcudes me also.

I here so much silliness from people who claim to be christian. Most of the people I am speaking of do not even believe in the Holy Virgin Mary Mother of God. These same people read all kinds of new age writting and follow allot of ancient pagan thinking (unwittingly). They quote Herodotus and Socraties like they were saints. I always feel sad for these people.

When I hear orthodox christians doing the same thing it shocks me.

Maybe I am nieve; but I thought that we follow the teaching in the church not outside.

I read the various responses to my posts and find that the issue is bigger than anything that I have learned to say.

I have run out of words.

I think people deep down really understand the point I am making.

The Miracle of Cana which Ethiopia celebrates this Sunday a thing of God.

Changing water into wine as the first Miracle of His ministry is for us today not an excuse for drinking. It is an act of mercy provided through the direct intercession of the Holy Virgin Mary Mother of God to the church.

Christ ushered in the era of mercy at Cana that culminated at the Cross of Calvary. Between these two points mercy is revealed to man. Gods mercy not mans mercy.

In Ethiopia after Cana is celebrated we have a fast a few weeks later called 'Nenawi' or Ninevah. Ninevah was a major example of Mercy from God. The whole nation was saved from its sins due to the rightious plea of Jonah. We then begin lent or as we say 'Hudadeh' or 'Abeyeh Tsome'. Ethiopia fasts for 57 days.

The point here is the era of mercy from Cana to Ninevah to Calvery.

The point of the wine at Cana has little to do with "wine" or drinking. It is a powerful and Holy theological matter which must be understood which I have only slighty touched on.

Sadly some people only see the wine drinking.

Happy Epiphany day (Today in Ethiopia)

Peace from God

Fr. Deacon Amde Tsion
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« Reply #153 on: January 20, 2007, 12:45:46 AM »

Quote
They quote Herodotus and Socraties like they were saints.

Unlike the Gospel writers, who quote Jewish oral tradition as though authoritative, or Jude, who quotes an Apocryphal books (perhaps several, actually) as though authoritative.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #154 on: January 20, 2007, 04:12:37 AM »

Quote
or Jude, who quotes an Apocryphal books (perhaps several, actually) as though authoritative.


Well that example wasn't the best to use, considering that the Book of Enoch (which the Epistle of Jude alludes to) is in fact authoritative within the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #155 on: January 20, 2007, 04:33:41 AM »

Very true, though I doubt very much that Amdetsion cares, since those Ethiopians aren't in communion with him, so for him it's a difficulty Wink
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« Reply #156 on: January 21, 2007, 04:55:42 AM »

Well Matthew if thats the way you feel I 'd recommend you never come up north to Seattle for any church service on Pascha or Nativity........


















Or Youth Group.....









Or Feast Days..........










Or Bazaars, we drink alot there too............





Better yet, just stay where your at.............
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« Reply #157 on: January 22, 2007, 01:14:24 AM »

Very true, though I doubt very much that Amdetsion cares, since those Ethiopians aren't in communion with him, so for him it's a difficulty Wink

Asteriktos:

I am an Ethiopian!

I am an arch deacon in the Church of Ethiopia; Abuna Paulos Patriarch.

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« Reply #158 on: January 22, 2007, 01:25:04 AM »



Well that example wasn't the best to use, considering that the Book of Enoch (which the Epistle of Jude alludes to) is in fact authoritative within the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

The Book of Enoch is one of the canonical books of the Holy Church. We refer to this book and other so-called apocryphal books so labeled by the west just as the early fathers did.

Hey!
The auto spell check is great. Thanks.

My spelling is horrible and I am usually to lazy to manually check.
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« Reply #159 on: January 22, 2007, 01:28:52 AM »

Justinian;

Sorry to here about all the drinking.

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« Reply #160 on: January 22, 2007, 02:08:21 AM »

Quote
I am an Ethiopian!

Well I admit that I was wrong for assuming that you were Eastern Orthodox. Enoch would be a bad example. So now we can move on to Jude quoting the Assumption of Moses (which no one accepts), or maybe some of the other references to Jewish tradition or Greek writers. Nah, nevermind, don't worry about it. Cool
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« Reply #161 on: January 22, 2007, 05:01:25 PM »

I would also like to add that the Church Fathers were not always Church Fathers. They are only such because of the Church's recognition of their wisdom. They didn't wake up one day and say to themselves, "Now that I am a Church Father, I am justified in quoting whomever I like."

As opposed to, say, members of Orthodox fora.....  Grin  Wink
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« Reply #162 on: January 22, 2007, 05:03:46 PM »

As opposed to, say, members of Orthodox fora.....  Grin  Wink
LOL! Cheesy
Funny and insightful!
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« Reply #163 on: January 22, 2007, 08:37:02 PM »

As opposed to, say, members of Orthodox fora.....  Grin  Wink

LOL - You said that; not me!  Cheesy
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 08:37:41 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
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