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Author Topic: Belloc's book "The Jews"  (Read 8151 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2007, 01:24:50 AM »

Yup, at that moment, we all received one-way express tickets to damnation. No, that was not the best of lunches, was it? Cheesy

A lunch to end all lunches. 

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It's interesting. The Orthodox New Skete monastery in New York State sells these icons:


St. Francis


meeting of St. Francis and St. Clare


St. Clare

http://www.newskete.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=3&cat=Icons+Color+Print+Cards

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They used to be part of the Franciscan order, eventually coming under the OCA. It's nice to see that they still appreciate St. Clare and St. Francis.

Clearly they are heretics and "out to lunch".  Wink
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« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2007, 01:34:15 AM »

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Clearly they are heretics and "out to lunch". 

Actually, some people do say that about them!  Wink
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« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2007, 01:37:04 AM »

Actually, some people do say that about them!  Wink

Now, why did I know that would be the case?  Shocked
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« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2007, 01:40:53 AM »

Speaking of St. Francis, watch Roberto Rossellini's The Flowers of St. Francis. The entire cast save one was comprised of actual Franciscan monks. Great movie. Inspiring. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042477/

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Sorry to hijack the thread, but I figured talking about a legendary man of peace and love beats the angry exchange seen above.

Francesco, with Mickey Rourke, was a film that had me looking into the life of St Francis a little more. Not the greatest of movies, and I felt that Rourke was well and truly miss-cast, but it did peak my interest. 
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« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2007, 02:13:57 AM »

Yeah, I heard it was lousy, so I've never seen it. The Rossellini is supposed to be much better.
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« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2007, 09:35:34 AM »

Lumping "the Jews" together as in a symbiotic whole versus a handful of either Jewish Bankers and/or lawyers who dominate the economic and political system of the West pretty much shows it explains it clearly.
I asked you to show me where anyone had voiced hatred.  My opinion that a particular group can act maliciously does not at all imply hatred on my part.  If I were wrong it would be an unjust generalistion.  Nowhere have I voiced hatred.

If I am upset because I see something which is either hatred or a debate about hatred, which regardless of any merit, IT IS, of course I get offended.
You havent seen any hatred, you've just seen opinions that are unpalatable to you so you would like to be able to dismiss them easily by crying 'hate'.  Never mind the fact that there has been no hatred.  Much less a call to exterminate Jews which you allude to, and which really brings the level of intellectual debate down even further.

Then do it. I will see the same arguments that Hitler used to exterminate them, only with modern undertones and newer innovations to modern issues.
I will do it, give me one week as I have an assignment in for friday.  And thankyou for pre-empting my material and comparing it to Nazi ideology before you've even seen it.  It shows how open you are to being an honest seeker of the truth.

Do you think there is some Jewish cult where every member of a synagogue goes into a secret room in the back and plots out world domination? Get real. Only Canadian Lutherans do that. Wink
Great, you set up a straw man then attack him.

But I do know, and agree that there is a huge Evangelical push for Zionism and the Israeli State. That is without a doubt real, and our tax dollars tell this truth everyday.
Im glad you acknowledge the obvious, so if this is all I was trying to say why cry hate, and why invoke the Mother of God?


But I will not target a people versus a political sentiment.
Ethnic and religious groups have agendas.  Their political leaders or financial backers do not exist in a vacuum.  If the agenda of one group is harmful to another I reserve the right to point it out.  That does not make me hateful.

It has alot to do wuith where the heart is at when we point fingers. Is it at the Jew as a whole people, or is it a handful of Jews? Thats my concern.
Well then why not voice your concern in reasonable terms from the outset instead of invoking melodramatic images of you crying over internet forums for the sins of others, and chastising them and threatening them with the judgement of God.
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« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2007, 09:49:59 AM »

Why is it that we who claim to follow Christ, simply don't? Nevermind how Jews or Muslims or anyone else believe or act. How are we, as Christians, supposed to believe and act? The onus is the Christian to show the love of Christ toward all enemies, in all circumstances; in every word and in every deed. What others do is irrelevant.
It is the duty of the Christian to protect his neighbour, this is how you show love.  Assuming that someone is exerting a negative influence on your neighbour, ignoring this on the basis that you are showing love is perverse.  Who are you showing love to?  Certainly not the person being oppressed.  God is just, what kind of justice is this?  What others do is not irrelevant.  Explain how innumerable Saints have pointed out the malicious intentions or actions of a ruler for the good of their flock.  Was this wrong, was it irrelevant?


The last two thousand years have shown Christians to be every bit as inept as the Jews were at revealing the unconditional and self-sacrificing Love of God to our fellow man.
If you truly believe the Church of Christ has been every bit as inept as Jews at revealing the unconditional and self-sacrificing Love of God to our fellow man, then you are slandering the Church.  What is the point in a Saviour whose sum effect is zero?  What about all the monks and martyrs that have revealed incomparably more to humanity since the resurrection of our Lord?



Do Jews act and think in error? Do they have a political agenda? If they do, so what?
If they do it is worth examining.  Living in ignorance is not a virtue.


Panagiotis is right. We will have to answer to God for our actions and reasoning. And because of this, we need to stop and think before we speak; before we form any idealolgy that could lead us into the grave sin of condemning our neighbour because he is in error;
So would you regard that which St. John Chrysostom said as a grave sin?  If you have a set of values, a moral code, then pointing out when someone transgresses it is not a sin.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 09:55:20 AM by Serbian Patriot » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2007, 10:00:04 AM »

Just like to throw in the fact that, as Orthodox Christians, WE are the Jews now.
Actually that is not a fact at all, thats you're own opinion.  The Church is the new Israel. 

 This truth cuts both ways, as now all the warnings against the Jews in our hymnography can be and should be leveled at our own selves now.
What about all the warnings against Jews since Christ?  Do the warnings of the likes of St.John Chrysostom now apply to us, even though he was Christian just as we are?  That would mean that what he said applied to himself as well.  Therefore he was condemning himself.  You make no sense.
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« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2007, 07:07:33 PM »

Belloc is your source?  Get real...Real historians don't even take these ideas seriously.

That some of you advocate that "the Protocols and Mein Kampf are not so much an idiotic innovation, but rather a perversion of the truth"  is insane and insulting.  Doesn't the one whose username bears a Slavic nation and another whose name is that of a famous Ukrainian realize that Slavs are just a half step above Jews in these idealogies? 


Your post does not make sense.  How can degrading Mein Kampf (which, btw, I have read) from an innovation (which simply means something new and different) to a perversion (which is a gross deviation from what is correct and true) be insane or insulting unless you are yourself a Nazi.  Anti-Semitism is nothing new or innovative.  People have not liked Jews since there have been Jews.  To say the Protocols or Mein Kampf are innovations is in itself idiotic and implys that anti-Semitism is a relatively new idea.  It is not.  My countrymen (who are NOT slavs) have exhibited gross anti-Semitism for nearly 1000 years, blaming them for everything from the murder of Christ to the Plague.  Mein Kampf was nothing new.  On the other hand, it IS a gross perversion.  The Christian Fathers had much to say that was negative about the Jewish religion.  However, the progression of calling a spade a spade when it comes to the anti-Christian and demonic rejection of Christ of the Jewish religion is a far different matter than the perverse idea that somehow the Hebrew race is forever tarnished and defective due to the religion held by some of those people.  In addition, the idea that either the Hebrew race, or Hebrew and other racial believers in Judaism should be subjected to percecution and death is, at least in my opinion, a gross perversion of the message of Love and personal salvation that comprises the core of Christian belief.  My mission as a Christian is to work out my own salvation, not to percecute Jews for any real or immagined offenses.  Does Christ not tell us to pull the beam of knowing his commands and failing to do them from our own eye before we attempt a "final solution" to the mote of unbelief in the Jewish eye?  This is the danger that comes with judgement of others.  As Orthodox Christians, we should recognise the falsehood of the Jewish religion, and heed the warnings handed down to us by the Fathers.  But this should never be done in a spirit of hate or of condemnation.  We are not the judge of the Jews, that is the realm of God.  However, when ungodly men and demoniacs such as Hitler get involved in the matters, even the truth is perverted to a point not recognizable.  There is a giant leap in logic from "Jews are involved in all kinds of evil and perverse activities" to "all Jews are evil and perverse".  This was the logic of Mein Kampf.  The Christian answer to the statement "Jews are involved in all kinds of evil" would be "Yes, so are Christians.  Please pray for us; Jews that they may see the truth and find their Christ, and Christians that Christ may forgive us for the tarnish of His name that we are guilty of.  May we both find Salvation together in the ark of the Church."  If you find this insane or insulting, I pity you.  I hope that you misunderstood me since it is not logical that you would consider me calling something a perversion to be wrong unless you yourself held the ideas of the Protocols and Mein Kampf to be true.  I don't believe that you do, and that is what confuses me.
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« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2007, 07:38:25 PM »

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It is the duty of the Christian to protect his neighbour, this is how you show love. Assuming that someone is exerting a negative influence on your neighbour, ignoring this on the basis that you are showing love is perverse.  Who are you showing love to?  Certainly not the person being oppressed.  God is just, what kind of justice is this?  What others do is not irrelevant.  Explain how innumerable Saints have pointed out the malicious intentions or actions of a ruler for the good of their flock.  Was this wrong, was it irrelevant?

You seem to have missed the point of my post.  Grin

Of course, innumerable Saints have pointed out the malicious intentions or actions of a ruler for the good of their flock. At no point did I advocate silence nor indifference. I advocate an attitude of charity and care not to provoke incidents of hatred. Isn’t part of the present problem in England due to certain Mullahs stirring up young Muslims with inappropriate rhetoric? You consider this is honourable? Should it be the Christian way, too? If we are to behave no differently, it begs the question. If early Christians went willingly to martydom, what exactly is the current impact of the Holy Spirit if He doesn't make a difference in the lives of modern Christians?

I repeat. The onus is on the Christian to show the love of Christ toward all enemies, in all circumstances; in every word and in every deed. What others do is irrelevant.

Quote
If you truly believe the Church of Christ has been every bit as inept as Jews at revealing the unconditional and self-sacrificing Love of God to our fellow man, then you are slandering the Church.  What is the point in a Saviour whose sum effect is zero?  What about all the monks and martyrs that have revealed incomparably more to humanity since the resurrection of our Lord?

Firstly, being inept doesn't indicate an effect that is zero. Secondly, as we Christians seem to have no qualms in stating that O.T. Jews failed in their God-given mission, I see no problem in pointing to the failures of the Church in hers.

Of course, slander it would be, if you could point to the Christian Church as a great success story; without resorting to Saints who have died for Christ, rather than do the very things I am objecting to. If you could say “Hey, you are wrong. We are wholly loving and compassionate to our enemies. We didn’t go off on Crusades and slaughter helpless women and children, we didn’t burn homosexuals and witches because they didn’t fall in line with our beliefs, we didn’t…." You get the picture, I’m sure.

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If they do it is worth examining.  Living in ignorance is not a virtue.

At no point did I advocate anything to the contrary.

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So would you regard that which St. John Chrysostom said as a grave sin?  If you have a set of values, a moral code, then pointing out when someone transgresses it is not a sin.

Another false conclusion. I said nothing about not pointing out transgressions, but stopping to think before we speak, so that the manner of our speech is consistent with love; to avoid the danger of creating an idealogy that could result in inciting future programs.   
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 08:00:18 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2007, 08:51:13 PM »

It is true that various Jews have been problematic in the past, early on they attacked and persecuted Christianity, they continued trying to undermine the Church even well after the Empire was Christianized. They were usurers throughout much of the middle ages, earning them a well deserved bad reputation. They would fail to assimilate into society being the source of civil unrest. And they were in large part responsible for the rise and spread of communism.

But this is no longer the reality, Jewish influence on the continent has in large part been neutralized (except for their efforts to outlaw freedom of speech and thought in France, Germany, and Austria...which is a grave mistake on their part, as one can already see the anit-semitism rising out of this well-justified resentment). Yes, there are some influential Jewish personalities in the media, but the advent of the internet has in a large way diminished their influence (which keeps falling).

Today, we have a far greater enemy, a mutual enemy...thus we should look to the Jews as an ally in the solution of the Islamic Problem. Regardless of how many Jewish bankers there are, the Jews are not engaging in terrorist attacks against western countries and attempting to enforce a 12th century political/religious philosophy on the rest of the world. They are not proselytizing and are content to keep their religion within their own community. Today, if we are to use extreme measures to neutralize a threat to society, the Jew should hardly be our concern, it is the Islamic Problem on which we must focus.
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« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2007, 09:07:15 PM »

Serbian Patriot,
Only from what I pointed out, which is using the term "the Jews" can be taken offensively. In most tones, especially on the net when saying something negatively, it can me misconstrued as an insult.

Now if you want me to dig up three year old records of a certain individual posting on an anti-semitic board professing the extermination of the Jewish race, then I will do my best to bring this up. If you took my original post offensive, then point out what my offenses were, otherwise you are arguing because I hit a certain tone with you, sir. Reread my original posting:
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I want to inform some people here about some issues regarding why it took a while for me to post here.

Three years ago I came across this site, interested in Orthodoxy. I read some things, had some fun and was ready to make a handle and jump in.

What I came across when I saw references to Jews, not only the religious Jew but the cultural Jew, I was disgusted. I followed links with names, sadly mostly Serbian and I saw someone who shall remain nameless on an anti-Semitic board using the same handle and promoting the extermination of Jews in their nation. I was appalled, disgusted, cried honestly and questioned if Blessed Orthodoxy is truly the loving compassionate church Jesus Christ founded. It took not only the Roman Catholics, but two loving Orthodox Priests to help me come to my conclusion of entering the Church. Their information on Jewish converts to Orthodoxy helped alot, and I have to say that those who hate the Jew are in sin. Those who hate their faith walk a shady ground and those who have compassion to heal and show the truth to the Jew in love is healthy. SO to those who have an issue, please realize you will have to answer God for some of your actions and reasoning.

And remember, we all have a Jewish Mother who intercedes for us, so how can you hate her?

My biggest issue I had was I saw no love for another race of people, period. It also upset me that I found a certain individual posting here professing Jesus Christ in one breath, then jumping over to another board, an anti-semitic racist board, using the tone "F&$% the Jews" in another. If that is not hatred, what is? And sadly it happen to be one of "the Serbs" here, who shall remain nameless. Would this turn you off, if you were of Jewish descent, looking into the loving arms of Mother Orthodoxy?

Yes, I will admit I argued with you on not the same level grounds in my second post. I bantered a bit and was not at my best debate. I am sorry for this and wish to put it past us if possible.

But I have to note, after reading your responses to not only me, that your view towards "the Jews" is not quite as strong in love as it should be. People are human, with souls, and should our desire to be conversion, in love, towards all of God's Children, even those who come from a line of those who rejected His First Coming?

And Mary, the Mother of God, is Jewish by blood. Why is this insulting to some? I really do not get it. Why? Is it so bad to have Jewish blood, people?

Kyrie Eleison,
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« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2007, 12:20:55 AM »

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And they were in large part responsible for the rise and spread of communism.

This is a two way street.  Had the tsarist authorities treated Jews better, would so many have been pushed to radical idealogies?  In Eastern Europe during WWII there were two realistic political platforms that one could hold in most places: fascism or communism.  For obvious reasons they didn't choose the former.   
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« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2007, 12:58:47 AM »

This is a two way street.  Had the tsarist authorities treated Jews better, would so many have been pushed to radical idealogies?  In Eastern Europe during WWII there were two realistic political platforms that one could hold in most places: fascism or communism.  For obvious reasons they didn't choose the former.   

No excuse to be a commie...better dead than red.

But seriously (not that I was entirely joking above), the reason that communism was the only viable alternative (fascism came on the scene a bit later) was because the revolutionaries (both jewish and non-jewish) did not seek other alternatives. Many jews were influential in the formation of the communist movement, they could have opted to fight for Republican government, but they didn't, they fought for communism. As such, the people involved in these movements, a large number of whom happened to be jews, justly earned disdain by decent people...you can't really blame someone for wanting to destroy communism and its supporters.
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« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2007, 02:10:32 AM »

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But seriously (not that I was entirely joking above), the reason that communism was the only viable alternative (fascism came on the scene a bit later) was because the revolutionaries (both jewish and non-jewish) did not seek other alternatives. Many jews were influential in the formation of the communist movement, they could have opted to fight for Republican government, but they didn't, they fought for communism. As such, the people involved in these movements, a large number of whom happened to be jews, justly earned disdain by decent people...you can't really blame someone for wanting to destroy communism and its supporters.

It depends on where and when.  If you are speaking of Russia in the decades leading up to the revolution, Jews were hardly the only socialists (even a quick study of 19th century Russian literature will show just how many Russians had adopted revolutionary stances).  In the end it would be more logical to fear Russians and particularly Georgians.  The February revolution in 1917 was a Russian affair.  The October revolution and subsequent Bolshevik victory in the Russian Civil War could not have been carried out without a wide base of support among the Russian populace.  In other communist uprisings there have been almost no Jews involved in high leadership roles: Mao, Tito, Castro, Ho Chi Min or the current revolutionaries fighting in Nepal. 

If you are speaking of Eastern Europe during and directly following WWII, there really was no choice for a republican government.  After being liberated the armies of Holy Russia there was no chance of a non-communist government.  So if you are an Eastern European Jew, it isn't even a question as to whom you'd root for when your two choices were the Third Reich and the Soviet Union.... The Soviet Union had its problems to be sure, but at least they didn't have a final solution.   Converserly, I know some older Poles who still remember welcoming the German troops as liberators when Eastern Poland was taken by the Nazis.  To make such moralistic judgements as "better dead than red" or to condemn others for siding with the Nazis, for that matter, is very comfortable in 21st century America.   

As an aside, some historians are even challenging the idea of Jews supporting communism as en masse as previously thought.  Jan Gross makes the claim that when it came to actual cooperation with Soviet forces such as the NKVD/NKGB, Poles were just as likely as Jews to cooperate (interestingly enough he found many cases of Poles who had collaborated with BOTH occupying forces). 

Hence it is somewhat misleading to say Jews "were in large part responsible for the rise and spread of communism." 
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« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2007, 12:44:32 AM »

Anti Semitism is so outdated and primitive. The only people I still hear saying "Jews control the world" are usually uneducated, ignorant, looking for attention, looking to hate, paranoid, or all the above.... Things like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" have been proven to be false, yet are still viewed by many antisemites as viable proof Huh But hey, to be honest, I would hope Jews own the world. Israel has taken a stance against Kosovo independence  Grin Grin
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« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2007, 01:01:03 PM »

The real "Jewish problem", is that they're an unfulfilled, messianic people.  Even when they utterly lose faith in God, they cannot help being messianists.  Just look how many have been key players in various modern revolutionary-utopian movements and ideologies.  Sadly, their alternatives to the actual Moschiach cannot help but beget ill.  The latest flavour is Zionism.  In the past it was simple Talmudism (the child of an errant Phariseeism.)  Until they have a change of heart, more such "messianic movements" will surely follow.

IOW., this is really the same problem the Jews have been reliving again and again since they became a "particular people."  Wherever they've gone wrong, it's because they've fallen far short of their vocation.  Instead of being a "light to the nations", they were more concerned about being "first", and with the power to "lord it over" everyone else at that.  Instead of carrying a burden for the common good, they've often functionally perceived themselves as being specially entitled.

btw. these are not specially Jewish afflictions - you can see them a the root of many Christian failures, including the origins of a certain schism head-quartered in Rome.  It's just that in terms of their calling as a people, the fall was most especially great.

Fortunately, we have the consoling promise that in the end, they'll get it right.

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« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2007, 01:10:50 PM »

re. "the protocols of the learned elders of zion"

This is a weird work.  Many comment upon it without ever having read it.  Besides knowing the popular (and less popular) theories of it's origin, what struck me most after having read it, is that stylistically it doesn't seem quite right.  It's just a little too "just so"...you can almost picture a darkened, smoke filled room of cackling Rabbis hashing out this book.  It's not that I don't believe conspiracies can and have happened (including on a large scale)...it's just that I have my doubts that human evil is ever this organized, let alone so "four coloured."

However, what makes this work equally bizarre is that a great deal of it's content has arguably come to pass  (and the work does present itself as a kind of world-wide agenda.)  So, that to me leaves it as a kind of ugly riddle.

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« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2007, 01:21:41 PM »

Ebor,

Quote
As to "opposition to Christendom" why would it be unreasonable for some people to oppose a group/system that has had a record of abuse, violence and oppression directed towards them?  Why would burning down their houses of worship (to cite an example from another poster) make believing Jews want to have anything to do with Christianity?

I agree that none of the injuries and inconvieniences that Christians have historically imposed upon Jews is going to endear us to them.  But at the same time, in large part this was a bed they made for themselves.  Typically forgotten in accounts of Jewish-Christian relations is the fact that "in the beginning" it was the Rabbis and their zealous followers who were chasing the Nazarenes from the Synagogues and later, taking any opportunity they could to denounce Christians (Jewish and Gentile alike) before the Roman authorities with all manner of slander.  This, on top of their unrepentent deicide (those who did repent, naturally constituted the faithful remnant of Old Israel, and became the foundation of the Church), is what fundamentally explains Christian attitudes toward them.
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« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2007, 01:32:43 PM »

Who was the guilty? Who was it denied thee?
Alas, my treason, Jesus, hath undone thee.
'Twas I, Lord Jesus, I it was denied thee,
I crucified thee.

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