OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 18, 2014, 04:13:49 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Belloc's book "The Jews"  (Read 8082 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Bl. Leonid Feodorov
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


« on: January 13, 2007, 07:25:32 PM »

Quote
As GIC says their guilt trip tactic is wearing off, and the more it does the more they have to use open intimidation and bullying.  The more they do the more they expose themselves.

I would recommend for all reading Hilaire Belloc's book, The Jews.  It was published in 1922 I believe, and is strikingly prophetic given the European anti-Semitic reaction that followed not long after.  Belloc traces historic patterns wherein the Jews have gained a high hand in society, insinuating themselves in positions of cultural, financial & political power, and from such positions attempted to fashion public opinion to the end that opposition to their race becomes a horrible offense, or at least socially awkward to maintain.  This leads to bitter talk behind oblivious backs, & eventually to persecution as the tension of gentile jealousy escalates.  Something of this pattern can even be seen in the Old Testament, & is certainly apparent in pagan Rome.  Its medieval & modern reappearances are too disturbing and well-known to merit extensive remembrance here, but suffice it to say that we are again at the point where the Jews wield an incredible degree of opinion-shaping power via their strongholds in the media.  This is known by a good deal of men, and resented by just as many.  The question as it relates to Jewish political influence and the Iraq war is even more provocative.  For charity's sake our culture, and we as Christians, must with open honesty face the question of the Jews within our midst.  We must openly avow our differences and examine the possibilities for tension mong us, and within that context, not one wherein overmuch sympathy for the Jews on account of happenings like the Holocaust dominate, which we must hammer out this very important socio-political question. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 07:29:07 PM by Bl. Leonid Feodorov » Logged

"Since the moment I gave myself to the Catholic Church my sole thought has been to bring back my country to that Church, which I believe is the only true Church."

- Bl. Leonid Feodorov
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2007, 08:39:34 PM »

I would recommend for all reading Hilaire Belloc's book, The Jews.  It was published in 1922 I believe, and is strikingly prophetic given the European anti-Semitic reaction that followed not long after.  Belloc traces historic patterns wherein the Jews have gained a high hand in society, insinuating themselves in positions of cultural, financial & political power, and from such positions attempted to fashion public opinion to the end that opposition to their race becomes a horrible offense, or at least socially awkward to maintain.  This leads to bitter talk behind oblivious backs, & eventually to persecution as the tension of gentile jealousy escalates.  Something of this pattern can even be seen in the Old Testament, & is certainly apparent in pagan Rome.  Its medieval & modern reappearances are too disturbing and well-known to merit extensive remembrance here, but suffice it to say that we are again at the point where the Jews wield an incredible degree of opinion-shaping power via their strongholds in the media.  This is known by a good deal of men, and resented by just as many.  The question as it relates to Jewish political influence and the Iraq war is even more provocative.  For charity's sake our culture, and we as Christians, must with open honesty face the question of the Jews within our midst.  We must openly avow our differences and examine the possibilities for tension mong us, and within that context, not one wherein overmuch sympathy for the Jews on account of happenings like the Holocaust dominate, which we must hammer out this very important socio-political question. 
Let me guess- you're a "traditionalist Catholic" right?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,609



WWW
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2007, 09:05:49 PM »

Cached links to Orthodoxinfo essays on Marian Apparitions:
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:saJx-1dsTJgJ:www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx+other+than+walsingham+in+my+distant+anglican+days&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:C0aRgCSr7fMJ:www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/medjugorje.aspx+Journey+to+Medjugorje&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2007, 09:18:29 PM »

Where's the link to the Orthodoxinfo.com page arguing that St. Francis of Assisi was inspired by the demonic? I remember reading that some time ago.
Logged
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2007, 09:50:55 PM »

Belloc traces historic patterns wherein the Jews have gained a high hand in society, insinuating themselves in positions of cultural, financial & political power, and from such positions attempted to fashion public opinion to the end that opposition to their race becomes a horrible offense, or at least socially awkward to maintain. 

Hatred of the Jews is quite like hatred of the Roma, so what high positions in society did the Roma get? Oh no, it couldn't be simple dislike of anyone who's different.
Logged
Bl. Leonid Feodorov
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2007, 10:50:36 AM »

Quote
Oh no, it couldn't be simple dislike of anyone who's different.

Oh no, you're very right, that is a great catalyst for the tension bound up in the Jewish Question, & Belloc picks up on this, noting that the Jews usually retain their identity as such (which is often prioritized over that of whatever nation they at that moment indwell) in the face of great cultural diversity, & fail thoroughly to 'assimilate' in the same manner as other immigrants.
Logged

"Since the moment I gave myself to the Catholic Church my sole thought has been to bring back my country to that Church, which I believe is the only true Church."

- Bl. Leonid Feodorov
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,817



« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2007, 11:11:15 AM »

Couldn't the same thing be said of African Americans, Mexicans, and lots of other groups? Heck, my brother is the 4th generation in this country and he's still learning some slovak words. And the Orthodox might especially be sensitive to a charge of failure to assimilate. Where does pride in one's past end and unacceptable nonassimilation begin? And is that nonassimilation unacceptable if it doesn't cause someone else harm?
Logged

Yes, yes, youth is wasted on the young. And so is accumulated experience wasted on the old, the positives of modernism wasted on moderns, the beauty of Christianity wasted on Christians, the utility of scholarship wasted on scholars, and on and on.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2007, 07:44:17 PM »

Quote
the Jewish Question

Stop saying this as if it is some universally agreed upon truth that there even is a "Jewish question."  The only real question is why has the idiot ideology of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Mein Kampf lived on to the present day.
Logged
Serbian Patriot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 200


« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2007, 06:31:31 AM »

Stop saying this as if it is some universally agreed upon truth that there even is a "Jewish question."  The only real question is why has the idiot ideology of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Mein Kampf lived on to the present day.
Maybe because Jewish lobbies have disproportionate power and influence which has been used to serve their own selfish interests at the expense of others.
Logged

ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2007, 09:40:09 AM »

Stop saying this as if it is some universally agreed upon truth that there even is a "Jewish question."  The only real question is why has the idiot ideology of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Mein Kampf lived on to the present day.
Maybe because Jewish lobbies have disproportionate power and influence which has been used to serve their own selfish interests at the expense of others.
Even if that were true, Serbian Patriot, does that justify the idiot ideology of the Protocols which is a fraud and Mein Kampf which is the manifesto of a madman who decimated Europe? Only a drunken, uneducated peasant would accept the ideas of a fraudulant document and the ravings of a lunatic.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
observer
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 546

Vivre die Raznitsa!


« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2007, 12:58:15 PM »

I don't like the implications of the Protocols. If they are true and tally with anti-Christian verses of the Talmud, the Jew's real Bible and not that of the Protestant Zionists - wheeeh a long sentence! - then watch out ye liberal lemmings out there.  If they are false - and it remains unproven, except by Jews - then its is indeed horrible propaganda.  Yet the Jews unlike ethnic Orthodox have control of the press in the US, the senate  and in Britian many areas of control etc.  If their intentions are good - well that's good.  That it is becoming impossible to criticize them is of more concern to  me personally.    By current standards in UK, this posting is anti-semitic.
Logged

Thou shalt not prefer one thing to another (Law of Liberalism)
Serbian Patriot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 200


« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2007, 04:08:03 PM »

Even if that were true, Serbian Patriot, does that justify the idiot ideology of the Protocols which is a fraud and Mein Kampf which is the manifesto of a madman who decimated Europe? Only a drunken, uneducated peasant would accept the ideas of a fraudulant document and the ravings of a lunatic.
Nektarios asked 'why has the idiot ideology of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Mein Kampf lived on to the present day'.  Im not suggesting that these ideologies are justified by the disproportionate influence of the Jews, but they are perpetuated for that very reason. 
Secondly a large amount of people who believe that the Jews wield a disproportionate and negative influence do not accept the Protocols, niether are they Nazis who look at Mein Kampf as a bible.  To paint them as such is inaccurate and lazy.
Logged

Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2007, 04:31:27 PM »

Stop saying this as if it is some universally agreed upon truth that there even is a "Jewish question."  The only real question is why has the idiot ideology of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Mein Kampf lived on to the present day.

Maybe because these writings are based on ideology that is not so idiotic.  I was reading just last week a letter from St. Ambrose to the Emperor where he stated that the Emperor was in danger of forfieting his salvation if he rebuilt a Synagogue that was burned down by Christians.  In fact, he refused to commune him until he agreed not to rebuild the Synagogue.  The writings of the Fathers are full of verbiage that would be considered "anti-semitic" in today's world.  I would venture to say that the "Jewish question" is very well agreed upon today and throughout history except by the Jews themselves and their Evangelical Protestant lap dogs.  The decrees of the Councils reference over and over how inappropriate that it is for a Christian to have any contact with the Jew.  We are, by Canon, not even to visit Jewish doctors.  About the only place that I can see an inconsistency in the "idiot ideology" of Protocols or Mein Kampf and Orthodox Patristic teaching is in the "final solution" to the Jewish question.  While the lunatic who wrote Mein Kampf would propose a liquidation of the Jews by violence, the Church would have us pray for the Jews as we would all of the heathen and heretics, so that they may find the Truth and enter salvation with us as part of the Body of Christ, the New Jerusalem.  In Christ there is no longer an ethnic destinction between Jew or Greek.  The true Jew is he who recieved Moses and the Prophets and through them found Christ, the fulfillment of all of which they spoke.  Those who call themselves "Jews" today are the same as those whom Christ spoke in Revelation - those who call themselves Jews but are not, but are a Synagogue of Satan.  So while the Protocols and Mein Kampf are by no means Christian writings, the anti-Semitic ideas expressed in them are not that far removed from the ideology of the majority of historic Christianity (Othodox, Latin, Lutheran) which does not exhalt the Jew to near the extent that they exhalt themselves.  I would say that the Protocols and Mein Kampf are not so much an idiotic innovation, but rather a perversion of the truth that is easy to fall into when "facts" are not measured against an Orthodox mindset which has as its basis the "Truth" of Christ's Love.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Bl. Leonid Feodorov
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2007, 09:57:03 PM »

Quote
Stop saying this as if it is some universally agreed upon truth that there even is a "Jewish question."  The only real question is why has the idiot ideology of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Mein Kampf lived on to the present day.

I would add (though there is little left to after Punch's very reasonable post) that reading such a book as Belloc's would go a long way first towards evidencing the very existence & gravity of the Jewish question, and second in showing how the Christian answer thereto need not be something so irrational & daemonic as Mein Kampf, nor, given the demonstration of the first point, based upon any obvious forgeries as the Protocols.  Belloc actually has a chapter in the book in which he deals specifically with anti-Semitism.  Indeed his book is written to defuse anti-Semitism, which he saw as a mindset inevitably produced by any culture that would ignore or minimize the Jewish question.
Logged

"Since the moment I gave myself to the Catholic Church my sole thought has been to bring back my country to that Church, which I believe is the only true Church."

- Bl. Leonid Feodorov
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2007, 01:40:07 AM »

Belloc is your source?  Get real...Real historians don't even take these ideas seriously.

That some of you advocate that "the Protocols and Mein Kampf are not so much an idiotic innovation, but rather a perversion of the truth"  is insane and insulting.  Doesn't the one whose username bears a Slavic nation and another whose name is that of a famous Ukrainian realize that Slavs are just a half step above Jews in these idealogies? 
Logged
Bl. Leonid Feodorov
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2007, 02:14:20 AM »

Quote
Belloc is your source?  Get real...Real historians don't even take these ideas seriously.

Allow me to suggest that the use of such ad hominem invective is argumentatively counterproductive. 

Who out of curiosity would qualify for you as a "real historian"?

Quote
That some of you advocate that "the Protocols and Mein Kampf are not so much an idiotic innovation, but rather a perversion of the truth"  is insane and insulting.  Doesn't the one whose username bears a Slavic nation and another whose name is that of a famous Ukrainian realize that Slavs are just a half step above Jews in these idealogies? 

The statement you quote (I cannot now remember who said it, or in what exact context) could be taken a number of ways, & I could conceive of seeing it in a way that would not be as 'insane & insulting' as you make it out to be.  For instance, the poster might merely have meant that the Protocols are not so novel in that it is not actually unknown for Jews to conspire together for the furtherance of their nation & race.  The same thing I might guess could be said of accusations made in Mein Kampf, though I have never read it.  (I don't think I could put myself through it.) 

I think you might be assuming to much.  That the slavs are 'in these ideologies' 'just a half step above the Jews' is enough to show how removed our 'ideologies' are from such 'ideologies' as you justly deplore, which are racist in nature.  I for one, along with many others who actually hold that there is a Jewish question, do not look down upon the Jews as ethinically inferior.  Our objection to much Jewish activity is not due to that race's alleged biological inferiority (as it was for Hitler), but to that race's rejection of God, opposition to Christendom, and, especially within the past century, replacement of a supernatural Messianic ideal with a secular one.

By the way, Bl. Leonid Feodorov (or, Fyodorov) was Russian, not Ukrainian.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 02:15:30 AM by Bl. Leonid Feodorov » Logged

"Since the moment I gave myself to the Catholic Church my sole thought has been to bring back my country to that Church, which I believe is the only true Church."

- Bl. Leonid Feodorov
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2007, 02:16:29 AM »

Allow me to suggest that the use of such ad hominem invective is argumentatively counterproductive.

It's not ad hominem to suggest that historians who did not prepare their work according to established norms of intellectual debate are not appropriate for citation in intellectual debate.

Quote
Who out of curiosity would qualify for you as a "real historian"?

Someone who submits his work to peer review, for one.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2007, 06:16:19 AM »

I for one, along with many others who actually hold that there is a Jewish question, do not look down upon the Jews as ethinically inferior.  Our objection to much Jewish activity is not due to that race's alleged biological inferiority (as it was for Hitler), but to that race's rejection of God, opposition to Christendom, and, especially within the past century, replacement of a supernatural Messianic ideal with a secular one.

Raymond,
You are a racist.
This is self-evident from the fact that despite your objections to "Jews rejecting God" (which is a matter of faith), you are not talking about the Jewish Faith, but repeatedly use the word "race". Well guess what? Christ and all of the Twelve Apostles were of the Jewish race.
George
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 06:25:48 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2007, 09:13:44 AM »

Doesn't the one whose username bears a Slavic nation and another whose name is that of a famous Ukrainian realize that Slavs are just a half step above Jews in these idealogies?
Very true, but sadly forgotten by most.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2007, 09:15:50 AM »

I started this thread because I thought it was in interesting tidbit of info.  It has gone WAY off topic and should be closed. 

If someone wants to resurrect the "Jews are the bain of the world" ( Roll Eyes)debate, it should be done so in the appropriate forum.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Bl. Leonid Feodorov
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2007, 09:37:05 AM »

Raymond,
You are a racist.
This is self-evident from the fact that despite your objections to "Jews rejecting God" (which is a matter of faith), you are not talking about the Jewish Faith, but repeatedly use the word "race". Well guess what? Christ and all of the Twelve Apostles were of the Jewish race.
George

The fact is that as a whole ethnic Jews have rejected Christ.  Thus 'Jewish race' is virtually equivalent to a race that opposes God'.  But let me reiterate what I have already said; My objection is not to the Jewish race per se, but to the almost universal Jewish rejection of God. 

Also, I was aware that Christ and His Apostles were Jews.  You would only be making a point in saying this if your first and false assumption were correct.  S. Paul for one had no problem making the kind of characterizations I have.  For instance:

Quote
For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own coutrymen, even as they have from the Jews, Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men; Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.  II Thessalonians ii. 14-16
One might say that is a very sweeping generalization, but it is not I that make it.

It's not ad hominem to suggest that historians who did not prepare their work according to established norms of intellectual debate are not appropriate for citation in intellectual debate.

Fair enough.  Now it is your turn to show me how Mr. Belloc failed to "work according to established norms of intellectual debate". 

I started this thread because I thought it was in interesting tidbit of info.  It has gone WAY off topic and should be closed. 

If someone wants to resurrect the "Jews are the bain of the world" ( Roll Eyes)debate, it should be done so in the appropriate forum.

I agree, this thread is becoming fruitless.  It is not much to my interest to debate the Jewish Question, it is not the purpose of this thread, and this dialogue has degenerated into consisting in large part of baseless accusations of anti-semitism.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 09:38:32 AM by Bl. Leonid Feodorov » Logged

"Since the moment I gave myself to the Catholic Church my sole thought has been to bring back my country to that Church, which I believe is the only true Church."

- Bl. Leonid Feodorov
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,406



« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2007, 10:32:06 AM »


Our objection to much Jewish activity is not due to that race's alleged biological inferiority (as it was for Hitler), but to that race's rejection of God, opposition to Christendom....

The accusation of "rejection of God" has already been addressed.  As to "opposition to Christendom" why would it be unreasonable for some people to oppose a group/system that has had a record of abuse, violence and oppression directed towards them?  Why would burning down their houses of worship (to cite an example from another poster) make believing Jews want to have anything to do with Christianity? 

Ebor  Sad
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2007, 10:40:27 AM »

Why would burning down their houses of worship (to cite an example from another poster) make believing Jews want to have anything to do with Christianity?

For what it's worth, even in countries of pogroms, there have still been many sincere converts to Orthodox Christianity. And there have also been even more people who feigned conversion, but since they may have then brought their children up in Orthodoxy, who went on to lead holy lifes, such a situation is certainly better than them staying Jewish.
Logged
Bl. Leonid Feodorov
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2007, 10:47:31 AM »

The accusation of "rejection of God" has already been addressed. 
Where has the accusation of 'rejection of God' already been addressed?

Quote
As to "opposition to Christendom" why would it be unreasonable for some people to oppose a group/system that has had a record of abuse, violence and oppression directed towards them? 
Because that 'system' (if by that you mean Christendom) is the application of the Incarnation to the political world, & the social expression of the bond of Christ's baptized.  That atrocities have been committed against the Jews is most unfortunate, and no one denies that they have been committed, but the obligation of every man (including the Jew) to join himself to Christ's Church remains, and any one refusing to fulfill that obligation is culpable.
Logged

"Since the moment I gave myself to the Catholic Church my sole thought has been to bring back my country to that Church, which I believe is the only true Church."

- Bl. Leonid Feodorov
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,406



« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2007, 11:06:59 AM »

For what it's worth, even in countries of pogroms, there have still been many sincere converts to Orthodox Christianity. And there have also been even more people who feigned conversion, but since they may have then brought their children up in Orthodoxy, who went on to lead holy lifes, such a situation is certainly better than them staying Jewish.

And for some to convert would be to deny God and their own faith. There have been Christian martyrs and there are people of other faiths who hold to theirs with as much seriousness and sincerity and belief.

And the question of "Why would some people feign conversion?"  Gives possible answers of trying to stay alive, to stop violence or terror or abuse.  Coercion under threat?  Huh Sad

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Pravoslavbob
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2007, 11:14:11 AM »

I agree with Ozgeorge, CRCulver and Nektarios.  I cannot believe the racist sentiments and anti-semitism expressed by some in this discussion.  Really shocking. 
Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,406



« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2007, 11:20:25 AM »

Where has the accusation of 'rejection of God' already been addressed?

OzGeorge above.  

Quote
Because that 'system' (if by that you mean Christendom) is the application of the Incarnation to the political world, & the social expression of the bond of Christ's baptized.  That atrocities have been committed against the Jews is most unfortunate, and no one denies that they have been committed

There are some who do deny that evil deeds and atrocities have been committed against Jewish people.

Quote
but the obligation of every man (including the Jew) to join himself to Christ's Church remains, and any one refusing to fulfill that obligation is culpable.

Well, a faithful Jewish person who believes in God and keeps the commandments would not seen any obligation to become Christian.  Why should he/she?  Why would the history of violence against their co-believers be any kind of reason to join with what would be percieved as an oppressor, a group that wants their religion and culture erased?
How do you make someone see an "obligation"?  Why should they just take your word or anyone's that they *ought* to do this?  That they *must* deny their ancestors and their faith and join yours?   How do you convince someone?  "Because I/my Church says so" isn't good enough.

Try to imagine someone telling you that you are obligated to convert to their religion. Imagine that it is one that has a history of people saying that they follow it killing and stealing and abusing your own family/ethnic group/co-religionists. Why would you do as they tell you when you deeply believe and follow Christianity?

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,406



« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2007, 11:23:19 AM »

I agree with Ozgeorge, CRCulver and Nektarios.  I cannot believe the racist sentiments and anti-semitism expressed by some in this discussion.  Really shocking. 

And I'll join you in that, Pavoslavbob.  When someone entertains the idea that the loathsome Protocols might be true, I just want to bang my head on the keyboard.  Sad

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2007, 11:50:40 AM »

^Exactly!
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Serbian Patriot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 200


« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2007, 01:15:57 PM »

That some of you advocate that "the Protocols and Mein Kampf are not so much an idiotic innovation, but rather a perversion of the truth"  is insane and insulting.  Doesn't the one whose username bears a Slavic nation and another whose name is that of a famous Ukrainian realize that Slavs are just a half step above Jews in these idealogies? 
Im assuming that you are referring to me when you say 'the one whose username bears a Slavic nation'.  Not sure why there is a need to speak in code Tongue.  Ive already pointed out to you that not everyone that believes that Jewish lobbies have a disproportionate influence accept the protocols, niether do you have to be a Nazi.  So why do you now ask me whether I realize that the Slavs are just a half step above Jews in these ideologies?  I am not a Nazi, nor do I venerate Adolf Hitler so why do I have to examine his ideology to find out how he regards my Slavic roots?  If I want to point out the disproportionate Jewish influence today, why does that require me to accept Hitlers ideology?  Clearly you are unable to objectively examine the present day situation and have inextricably linked any criticism of the Jewish lobby with Nazism and Hitler.  The idea that because Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews, they are capable of no wrong and are beyond criticism till judgement day is ridiculous.  If I want to point out a present day ill, I dont have to justify another evil from the past.  This is exactly what you are implying.
Logged

Panagiotis
Libertarian/Orthodox/Lush
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Phanar
Posts: 406


Advocating Liberty Since 1973


WWW
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2007, 03:08:01 PM »

I want to inform some people here about some issues regarding why it took a while for me to post here.

Three years ago I came across this site, interested in Orthodoxy. I read some things, had some fun and was ready to make a handle and jump in.

What I came across when I saw references to Jews, not only the religious Jew but the cultural Jew, I was disgusted. I followed links with names, sadly mostly Serbian and I saw someone who shall remain nameless on an anti-Semitic board using the same handle and promoting the extermination of Jews in their nation. I was appalled, disgusted, cried honestly and questioned if Blessed Orthodoxy is truly the loving compassionate church Jesus Christ founded. It took not only the Roman Catholics, but two loving Orthodox Priests to help me come to my conclusion of entering the Church. Their information on Jewish converts to Orthodoxy helped alot, and I have to say that those who hate the Jew are in sin. Those who hate their faith walk a shady ground and those who have compassion to heal and show the truth to the Jew in love is healthy. SO to those who have an issue, please realize you will have to answer God for some of your actions and reasoning.

And remember, we all have a Jewish Mother who intercedes for us, so how can you hate her?

Panagiotis
Logged


"The first condition for the establishment of perpetual peace is the general adoption of the principles of laissez-faire capitalism"
-Ludwig Von Mises
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2007, 03:50:58 PM »

Where's the link to the Orthodoxinfo.com page arguing that St. Francis of Assisi was inspired by the demonic? I remember reading that some time ago.

You aren't serious??!!  Shocked Huh
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2007, 04:15:21 PM »

Maybe because Jewish lobbies have disproportionate power and influence which has been used to serve their own selfish interests at the expense of others.
Even if that were true, Serbian Patriot, does that justify the idiot ideology of the Protocols which is a fraud and Mein Kampf which is the manifesto of a madman who decimated Europe? Only a drunken, uneducated peasant would accept the ideas of a fraudulant document and the ravings of a lunatic.

Well said.

The problem is always balance. Whilst it might be reasonable to criticise the agenda of any race - and I do believe all races, especially once a race becomes nationalistic, have their own agendas - the great danger is careless generalisation that leads to outright slander.  Once a slander such as the "Protocols" becomes accepted as a truth it's very hard to remove prejudicial attittudes that are then handed down from generation to generation.

As Christians, I believe that we must be very careful in what we say about our fellow human-beings; especially to our children. I remember a rash of Irish jokes that gave the impression that all the Irish were bog-thick. When an Irish chappy won "Mastermind" people were actually surprised! Shocked This is just a mild example of how thoughtless talk instills prejudices.

We need to guard ourselves against mindless demonisation of those who are - or aren't as the case may be - our enemies. The fact that someone is vehemently opposed to all that we hold dear doesn't justify our running off at the mouth.



Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Serbian Patriot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 200


« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2007, 04:44:53 PM »

I have to say that those who hate the Jew are in sin. Those who hate their faith walk a shady ground and those who have compassion to heal and show the truth to the Jew in love is healthy. SO to those who have an issue, please realize you will have to answer God for some of your actions and reasoning.
And remember, we all have a Jewish Mother who intercedes for us, so how can you hate her?
Panagiotis
Please point out where anyone has shown hatred to Jews...
Pointing out the actions which Jews themselves commited does not equate to hating them.  You are trying to imply that voicing concern equates to hate.  It really does not help your argument at all when you try and bring things down to such an emotional level.  It shows you are not willing or able to debate the facts on their own merit.  If you want me to provide irrefutable evidence of the diproportionate and negative influence of the Jewish lobby and of the complete hypocrisy of Zionists and the state of Israel I can and will do so.  But dont try and make out that providing the evidence is somehow hateful and more wrong than the very actions which are being pointed out.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 04:45:55 PM by Serbian Patriot » Logged

SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2007, 04:45:40 PM »

What I came across when I saw references to Jews, not only the religious Jew but the cultural Jew, I was disgusted. I followed links with names, sadly mostly Serbian and I saw someone who shall remain nameless on an anti-Semitic board using the same handle and promoting the extermination of Jews in their nation.

Panagiotis,

    Truly I am sorry you came across such rubbish.  Unfortunately you'll find a wide variety of opinions within every ethnic group and I do not believe what you encountered from some Serbs is indicative of a general Serbian view of Jews.  I know that I was NEVER taught such things, neither growing up in the SOC or at home.  

     In fact, *most* Serbs are very proud of their fight against the Nazi's, and fascism in general (during WWII) and while we disagree with Judaism's opposition to the Trinity, we are NOT anti-semetic people.  Families like mine took in a young Jewish boy to hide him from fascist elements in the Polog Valley during WWII.  I think this is easily the majority opinion.

     I have also been exposed to some websites where you'll find Serbian "white supremacists" (I won't advertise them here, because frankly I find them disgusting), but I don't think you should let a few bad apples color your opinion of an entire nation.  Effectively, that would put you in the same boat as them.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Panagiotis
Libertarian/Orthodox/Lush
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Phanar
Posts: 406


Advocating Liberty Since 1973


WWW
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2007, 05:20:06 PM »

Quote
Please point out where anyone has shown hatred to Jews...
Pointing out the actions which Jews themselves commited does not equate to hating them.
Lumping "the Jews" together as in a symbiotic whole versus a handful of either Jewish Bankers and/or lawyers who dominate the economic and political system of the West pretty much shows it explains it clearly. It is similar to lumping all United States citizens as either pro-Iraq War Evangelical Conservatives or Serbians as Jewish racists, which I know is not the truth.

Quote
It really does not help your argument at all when you try and bring things down to such an emotional level.  It shows you are not willing or able to debate the facts on their own merit.
If I am upset because I see something which is either hatred or a debate about hatred, which regardless of any merit, IT IS, of course I get offended. Would you? I seem to be the only  one here with Jewish blood with a minute Jewish religious background. Of course I am going to be offended especially when my family has heard words like this used before to undergo changes in society, freedom and civil rights.

Quote
If you want me to provide irrefutable evidence of the diproportionate and negative influence  of the Jewish lobby and of the complete hypocrisy of Zionists and the state of Israel I can and will do so.
Then do it. I will see the same arguments that Hitler used to exterminate them, only with modern undertones and newer innovations to modern issues. Do you think there is some Jewish cult where every member of a synagogue goes into a secret room in the back and plots out world domination? Get real. Only Canadian Lutherans do that. Wink
I have seen enough "proof" of what you claim and, magically, it targets out Jews and creates secret ties and mysterious meetings in high rises in CHicago and NYC where they gather around a big round table to plot out their world plans, these plots are not grounded on fact and cause hatred and anger. Instead of reliable sources, they are monotonous repetitions of Bavarian Illuminati tripe.

But I do know, and agree that there is a huge Evangelical push for Zionism and the Israeli State. That is without a doubt real, and our tax dollars tell this truth everyday. But I will not target a people versus a political sentiment. Its their politicians and not the whole nation. In fact, I have to say I hear comments from associates, friends and family who are frustrated for the Evangelical focus they get while living in Israel. They do not like it.

Quote
But dont try and make out that providing the evidence is somehow hateful and more wrong than the very actions which are being pointed out.
It has alot to do wuith where the heart is at when we point fingers. Is it at the Jew as a whole people, or is it a handful of Jews? Thats my concern.

Panagiotis
Logged


"The first condition for the establishment of perpetual peace is the general adoption of the principles of laissez-faire capitalism"
-Ludwig Von Mises
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,817



« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2007, 05:35:34 PM »

At this risk of sounding like I am defending anti-semitism--which I certainly am not (hopefully my past postings here and especially at the Euphrosynos Cafe demonstrate this fairly well) --I'd like to say something. First, there is a pretty prominent American bishop who has publically said that he believes things like the Jews controlling the media. Be careful in making judgments too quickly or sweeping too widely, you might unwittingly condemn your own pastors. I am not saying that people should not speak against anti-semitism, but only that some care should be exercized. I think things like The Protocols of Zion are silly (to put it mildly), and I can understand how it would be scandalizing when people find out that some people take it seriously, and that even Orthodox monks have recommended this book. But if you just attack or condemn people or their sources outright, without a good deal of evidence, you aren't going to change their minds, you're just going to make them become more defensive. Perhaps it would be better to make a systematic post about what the Bible or Fathers said about the Jews, taking on not only the parts that speak of an egalitarian ideal, but also the parts which are difficult, such as when John Chrysostom says that God hated the Jews, that he did, and so should other Christians (Eight Homilies Against the Jews, Sermon 1, 5; Sermon 4, 3; Sermon 6, 1; Sermon 6, 6).
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 05:38:22 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Yes, yes, youth is wasted on the young. And so is accumulated experience wasted on the old, the positives of modernism wasted on moderns, the beauty of Christianity wasted on Christians, the utility of scholarship wasted on scholars, and on and on.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2007, 05:46:57 PM »

I want to inform some people here about some issues regarding why it took a while for me to post here.

Three years ago I came across this site, interested in Orthodoxy. I read some things, had some fun and was ready to make a handle and jump in.

What I came across when I saw references to Jews, not only the religious Jew but the cultural Jew, I was disgusted. I followed links with names, sadly mostly Serbian and I saw someone who shall remain nameless on an anti-Semitic board using the same handle and promoting the extermination of Jews in their nation. I was appalled, disgusted, cried honestly and questioned if Blessed Orthodoxy is truly the loving compassionate church Jesus Christ founded. It took not only the Roman Catholics, but two loving Orthodox Priests to help me come to my conclusion of entering the Church. Their information on Jewish converts to Orthodoxy helped alot, and I have to say that those who hate the Jew are in sin. Those who hate their faith walk a shady ground and those who have compassion to heal and show the truth to the Jew in love is healthy. SO to those who have an issue, please realize you will have to answer God for some of your actions and reasoning.

And remember, we all have a Jewish Mother who intercedes for us, so how can you hate her?

Panagiotis

Panagiotis raises some valid points. I'm sure that many of us have wrestled with aspects of Orthodox history and wept at past mistakes. Of course, Orthodox history is merely a mirror of all human history. And it seems that mankind never really learns.

Apparently, the "racism" in the thread isn't truely racisim, but ideologism. (I might have just invented that word.)

From what I can ascertain from reading this thread, clearly any Jew who comes over to our side and accepts Christianity is acceptable. What doesn't appear to be acceptable is the continued denial of Christ.

I have a recollection of being quite surprised to discover that Martin Luther believed that his own change of ideology would somehow ease the path for the Jews of his time to accept Christianity. He figured that by throwing off Catholicism (and thereby the bad blood between Jew and Christian) the Jews would flock to his brand of Christianity. When they didn't, he became petulant and began writing in a very different vein than he had earlier. It was time, he decided, to burn their synagogues, with the Jews still in them.

Without wishing to judge Martin Luther in any way, it would seem that his pride was hurt. He had assumed that his ideology was so undeniably brilliant that no one, not even the Jew, could resist it. When they did, his disappointment turned to vengeance; all in the name of Christ, of course. (I hope that this is a reasonably accurate account of the events. It is many years since I read the details.)

I have lived long enough now, that I have ceased to be surprised by the fact that people, myself included, are so dismally flawed.

Why is it that we who claim to follow Christ, simply don't? Nevermind how Jews or Muslims or anyone else believe or act. How are we, as Christians, supposed to believe and act? The onus is the Christian to show the love of Christ toward all enemies, in all circumstances; in every word and in every deed. What others do is irrelevant.

Too often, I see people resort to insult and denegration of people who don't agree with them and then, when challanged on their behaviour, turn to the pages of the Gospel and proudly state; "Well, Christ calls the Pharisees a brood of vipers!" It's true. And He was right, and those He was referrring to were His own people; people who had the Law and the Prophets and who should have known better than to lead those who they instructed into error. 

There have been, and always will be, those within the Church to whom the very same term could be applied. And quite frankly, Christians should know better, but we simply don't seem to be able to transfer head-knowledge into righteous action.

The last two thousand years have shown Christians to be every bit as inept as the Jews were at revealing the unconditional and self-sacrificing Love of God to our fellow man. The battle-cry is always the same. "Come over to our side and we'll forget that you are different; that your predecessors in the dim and distance past crucified our Lord. If you don't, we will consider you not worthy of respect and thoughtlessly repeat all manner of slander against you."

Do Jews act and think in error? Do they have a political agenda? If they do, so what? This might come as a shock, but we all act and think in error, we all have a political agenda; Christians, Jews, Muslims and whatever else. Every human being on the face of this planet is so pitifully flawed that most of the time we simply can't see the forest for the trees. And the sooner we come to grips with that realisation, the sooner we will be able to accept each other as flawed creatures. Only when we consider others on an equal footing are we going to be able to look past their faults, whatever they might be, and truly offer God's love.

Panagiotis is right. We will have to answer to God for our actions and reasoning. And because of this, we need to stop and think before we speak; before we form any idealolgy that could lead us into the grave sin of condemning our neighbour because he is in error; forgetting at the same time that we also are in error. No one is perfect, but everyone will have to answer to God for their actions and reasoning.

Lord have mercy on us all. (We certainly need it!)

Sorry to have ranted. I shall put the soap box away now.  Grin

« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 06:28:41 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2007, 05:52:13 PM »

I want to inform some people here about some issues regarding why it took a while for me to post here.

Glad you're here.

And remember, we all have a Jewish Mother who intercedes for us, so how can you hate her?

Beautiful.

Just like to throw in the fact that, as Orthodox Christians, WE are the Jews now.  This truth cuts both ways, as now all the warnings against the Jews in our hymnography can be and should be leveled at our own selves now.

You aren't serious??!!  Shocked Huh

Yup.  Here 'tis, fwiw.  Which isn't much, imo.  For better or for worse, I'm a fan of St. Francis.  Got his icon at home.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2007, 06:10:26 PM »

Yup.  Here 'tis, fwiw.  Which isn't much, imo.  For better or for worse, I'm a fan of St. Francis.  Got his icon at home.


Thank you, DavidBryan. I am also a fan of St Francis.

The damning claim that anything that doesn't sit well with a particular idealogy or theology is demonic is something I find quite disturbing.  Embarrassed
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
observer
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 546

Vivre die Raznitsa!


« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2007, 08:01:55 PM »

I am puzzled by the diatribe on this forum especially when a touch LIb issue gets debated.  Surely genuine criticism is not harmful but thought provoking?  Some believe the Protocols, some sweep them off into the trashbin, others are more open minded (and watchful).  That Orthodox hierarchs and saints accepted them as a warning of what might happen, is for me a reason to wait and see, BUT not to get paranoid about the Jewish influence.  As for calling the Mother of God a Jew is scandalous or poorly thought through. Of course ethnically God is a Jew!  But as Orthodox Christians see the Theotokos as part of the New Israel, of which we are members too.  Who was Christ condeming  or St Paul - surely Judaism?   There is an underlying theme- Lying to be more accurate, that smells of Dr Spock, Hippy parentage and all that other kopros that condones liberal Christianity.  I don't like Dorian Gray - does that make me homophobic?  And what about Disraeli - was he anti-semitic?  I am sorry that some of you bang your heads or weep when others bring up sensitive issues - but this is the market place, n'est pas?  I recommend a good dose of Red Dwarf, especially the episode where Riimmer wants to defeat the enemy by bombing them with leaflets... :'(
Logged

Thou shalt not prefer one thing to another (Law of Liberalism)
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2007, 12:23:41 AM »

Thank you, DavidBryan. I am also a fan of St Francis.

The damning claim that anything that doesn't sit well with a particular idealogy or theology is demonic is something I find quite disturbing.  Embarrassed

I know.

I read that whole long, rambling, boring article, and my reward was this at the end:

As startling as it may appear to some, he bore many characteristics which are prototypical of Antichrist, who will also be seen as chaste, virtuous, highly moral, full of love and compassion, and who will be regarded as holy (even as a deity) by people who have allowed carnal romanticism to replace the Sacred Tradition of the Holy Church.

The sad fact is that the attainment of a true spiritual relationship with Christ was never a possibility for Francis, for being outside the Church of Christ, it was impossible that he could have received Divine Grace, or any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. His gifts were from another spirit.


Sigh . . . I'm glad to say that most Orthodox I've met are quite fond of St. Francis. And I'm a fan of St. Seraphim, so there.

Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2007, 12:46:31 AM »

I know.

I read that whole long, rambling, boring article, and my reward was this at the end:

{quote]As startling as it may appear to some, he bore many characteristics which are prototypical of Antichrist, who will also be seen as chaste, virtuous, highly moral, full of love and compassion, and who will be regarded as holy (even as a deity) by people who have allowed carnal romanticism to replace the Sacred Tradition of the Holy Church.

I am thankful to DavidBryan for passing on the link, but I gave up reading the article in despair. You are stalwart to have perservered to the end - Congratulations!

Quote
The sad fact is that the attainment of a true spiritual relationship with Christ was never a possibility for Francis, for being outside the Church of Christ, it was impossible that he could have received Divine Grace, or any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. His gifts were from another spirit.

Really? No doubt this condemnation is based on some declaration from heaven?  Shocked   

Quote
Sigh . . . I'm glad to say that most Orthodox I've met are quite fond of St. Francis. And I'm a fan of St. Seraphim, so there.

I have always thought of St Francis as one of the most inspirating Saints of the West, but I was forgetting that since 1054, (Tuesday, lunchtime, I believe), the West hasn't actually had any saints; none at all. (We really do need a "tongue in cheek" icon.)  Tongue

 
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2007, 01:14:50 AM »

Yup, at that moment, we all received one-way express tickets to damnation. No, that was not the best of lunches, was it? Cheesy

It's interesting. The Orthodox New Skete monastery in New York State sells these icons:


St. Francis


meeting of St. Francis and St. Clare


St. Clare

http://www.newskete.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=3&cat=Icons+Color+Print+Cards

-

They used to be part of the Franciscan order, eventually coming under the OCA. It's nice to see that they still appreciate St. Clare and St. Francis.

Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2007, 01:18:20 AM »

Speaking of St. Francis, watch Roberto Rossellini's The Flowers of St. Francis. The entire cast save one was comprised of actual Franciscan monks. Great movie. Inspiring. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042477/

-

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I figured talking about a legendary man of peace and love beats the angry exchange seen above.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 01:20:33 AM by lubeltri » Logged
Tags: controversial justifying racism 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.157 seconds with 73 queries.