Author Topic: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces  (Read 32523 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,522
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #90 on: March 18, 2012, 04:35:51 PM »
Is there anyone here who can give an Orthodox view of the armed forces? ???

Experience is knowledge. Perhaps one could pray to and ask any of our saints known for their military service, many martyrs of which served more than honorably under the rule of a non-Christian government while maintaining their faith in Christ and converting those around them, even converting at their martyrdom those who were present to see their martyrdom.

I think you know the answer to your own question though, but maybe it needed to be said. A man can have no greater love than to lay down his life.

Semper Fi.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #91 on: March 18, 2012, 04:39:54 PM »
"The Orthodox Church therefore is not pacifistic, although it in practices encourages governments always to pursue the “preferential option for peace.” Nonetheless, the Church recognizes that this world is fallen and is not yet equivalent to the kingdom of God. For this reason, governments in general cannot be held to the strict requirements of the gospel. Although under God’s authority, they belong to the fallen world. At times statesmanship fails, and Christians are called by their governments to defend their commonwealth by means of war, for to fail to do so would result in an increase in the measure of evil in the world."

Whoever wrote this does not know the LORD.
I'm finished here. Goodbye - I've gotten my point across but no matter what I and Gebre Menfes Kidus say your hearts are so hardened - you will find anything to excuse the Love that God calls us to have.





rather judgmental and arrogant to say that this person who wrote this doesn't know the Lord, (thereby implying that you do), isn't it?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 04:45:00 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #92 on: March 18, 2012, 04:45:56 PM »
Whoever wrote this does not know the LORD.
I'm finished here. Goodbye - I've gotten my point across but no matter what I and Gebre Menfes Kidus say your hearts are so hardened - you will find anything to excuse the Love that God calls us to have.

While you're spiritually discerning the condition of people's souls, could you give me a reading as well? Thanks!


Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #93 on: March 18, 2012, 05:42:52 PM »
"The Orthodox Church therefore is not pacifistic, although it in practices encourages governments always to pursue the “preferential option for peace.” Nonetheless, the Church recognizes that this world is fallen and is not yet equivalent to the kingdom of God. For this reason, governments in general cannot be held to the strict requirements of the gospel. Although under God’s authority, they belong to the fallen world. At times statesmanship fails, and Christians are called by their governments to defend their commonwealth by means of war, for to fail to do so would result in an increase in the measure of evil in the world."

Whoever wrote this does not know the LORD.
I'm finished here. Goodbye - I've gotten my point across but no matter what I and Gebre Menfes Kidus say your hearts are so hardened - you will find anything to excuse the Love that God calls us to have.


Which brings me back to what I said before:

You do realize that the OP asked for an Orthodox view of the armed forces?
What I'm saying is that I see no evidence to believe you're spouting anything more than your personal interpretation of the Gospel.
And, isaelie, your response to this was not to do anything to suggest that your view may be something more than just your own opinion--for instance, citing support for your position from the Fathers, councils, and liturgical witness of the Church. Instead, you chose to launch emotion-based attacks on those points of view that disagree with yours and on the persons who hold them.

Can you cite those patristic, conciliar, and liturgical authorities that support your pacifist interpretation of the Gospel, or would you rather just assume that you have a line of direct, private revelation from God and that those who disagree with you must not know the LORD and have hardened their hearts against Him?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline isaelie

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #94 on: March 18, 2012, 05:45:25 PM »
Peter, what would you like me to cite? I've cited the words of our Lord Himself, look at my previous posts

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,119
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #95 on: March 18, 2012, 05:49:23 PM »
I've cited the words of our Lord Himself,

And conveniently ignored the other parts of the Gospels mentioned which contradict what you think  ;)

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,119
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #96 on: March 18, 2012, 05:50:22 PM »
Whoever wrote this does not know the LORD.
I'm finished here. Goodbye - I've gotten my point across but no matter what I and Gebre Menfes Kidus say your hearts are so hardened - you will find anything to excuse the Love that God calls us to have.

While you're spiritually discerning the condition of people's souls, could you give me a reading as well? Thanks!



You have no idea how close you are hitting to how my spiritual life goes most days. Or maybe you do.  ;D

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #97 on: March 18, 2012, 05:55:08 PM »
Peter, what would you like me to cite? I've cited the words of our Lord Himself, look at my previous posts
Yes, anyone can cite the words of our Lord to support any teaching they want--the heretics do that all the time to support their false doctrines. What you need to do is cite those authorities--e.g., the Fathers, councils, liturgical traditions, ascetics, etc.--that represent the way we Orthodox have traditionally understood the words of our Lord.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 05:57:10 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline isaelie

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #98 on: March 18, 2012, 05:55:51 PM »
Asteriktos, it seems you don't really care about what we are discussing here, and are just in it for the jokes or somewhat
Or perhaps it is your interpretation that i've added my own interpretation. Can Christ contradict Himself? Which other part of the Gospel does it mention Christ telling others to grab their swords and start chopping each other's heads off?
Or did i miss a bit?
Or am i reading the wrong Gospel?
Or is your only excuse that my interpretation is wrong?

Offline isaelie

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #99 on: March 18, 2012, 05:57:44 PM »
Yes Peter,
but it's like discussing that God isn't Love
And when Jesus said, It has been said 'Eye for Eye'... But i tell you do not resist an evil person. What more can be said?? Isn't it clear enough

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #100 on: March 18, 2012, 06:00:05 PM »
Asteriktos, it seems you don't really care about what we are discussing here, and are just in it for the jokes or somewhat
... and stop casting aspersions on the character and motives of those who disagree with you...

Or perhaps it is your interpretation that i've added my own interpretation. Can Christ contradict Himself? Which other part of the Gospel does it mention Christ telling others to grab their swords and start chopping each other's heads off?
... and stop resorting to absurd representations of those opinions that disagree with yours...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 06:13:43 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Aindriú

  • Faster! Funnier!
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,918
    • Blog
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #101 on: March 18, 2012, 06:00:13 PM »
Are you single?

I'm going to need this.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #102 on: March 18, 2012, 06:10:07 PM »
Yes Peter,
but it's like discussing that God isn't Love
And when Jesus said, It has been said 'Eye for Eye'... But i tell you do not resist an evil person. What more can be said?? Isn't it clear enough
The OP asked for an Orthodox understanding of military service. All you've done is give us your interpretation of what the Gospel says about the subject. That isn't what the OP requested, so I offered some advice on how you can show that your understanding is Orthodox. Rather than follow my advice, you chose to argue with my suggestion that what you've presented thus far is insufficient.

I've seen and heard many Orthodox voice the pacifist opinions you voice. I'm even aware of an Orthodox Peace Fellowship that advocates pacifism based on what they see as the mandate of the Gospel. I'm quite aware that many draw support for their pacifism from the doctrine and practice of the Orthodox Christian faith, just as you do. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is you coming to our discussion forum to preach your particularly pacifist interpretation of the Gospel, resist any attempts to elicit from you support for your position from the Fathers, councils and liturgical witness of the Church, and condemn those who disagree with you.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 06:11:45 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #103 on: March 18, 2012, 06:10:55 PM »
Are you single?
Of whom are you asking this question?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline bishoy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #104 on: March 18, 2012, 07:04:15 PM »
I'm not personally advocating for the pacifistic point of view, but I am aware that there are several sayings from the Early Church Fathers which CAN be used to support such a viewpoint. Since y'all are asking for evidence, here is some:

Saint Justin Martyr:
 
“The devil is the author of all war.”  “We, who used to kill one another, do not make war on our enemies. We refuse to tell lies or deceive our inquisitors; we prefer to die acknowledging Christ.”

Tertullian:

“But now inquiry is being made concerning these issues. First, can any believer enlist in the military? Second, can any soldier, even those of the rank and file or lesser grades who neither engage in pagan sacrifices nor capital punishment, be admitted into the church? No on both counts—for there is no agreement between the divine sacrament and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil, the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot serve two masters—God and Caesar…But how will a Christian engage in war—indeed, how will a Christian even engage in military service during peacetime—without the sword, which the Lord has taken away? For although soldiers had approached John to receive instructions and a centurion believed, this does not change the fact that afterward, the Lord, by disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier.”  

“Under no circumstances should a true Christian draw the sword.”

Hippolytus of Rome:

"“A soldier, being inferior in rank to God, must not kill anyone. If ordered to, he must not carry out the order, nor may he take an oath (sacramentum) to do so. If he does not accept this, let him be dismissed from the church. Anyone bearing the power of the sword, or any city magistrate, who wears purple, let him cease from wearing it at once or be dismissed from the church. Any catechumen or believer who wishes to become a soldier must be dismissed from the church because they have despised God.”


Saint Irenaeus:

"“Christians have changed their swords and their lances into instruments of peace, and they know not now how to fight.”

Saint Cyprian:

[Christians] are not allowed to kill, but they must be ready to be put to death themselves… it is not permitted the guiltless to put even the guilty to death.” “God wished iron to be used for the cultivation of the earth, and therefore it should not be used to take human life.


The source from which I draw these is, regrettably, this blog:

http://rogueminister.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/quotes-the-early-church-on-war-and-violence/

All it took was a simple Google search to find this. There are many more quotes from that blog which supports some kind of view of pacifism.

Ignoring the source and just taking the quotes for what they are, we at least now have evidence for a pacifistic argument.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 07:11:32 PM by bishoy »

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,119
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #105 on: March 18, 2012, 07:11:07 PM »
Asteriktos, it seems you don't really care about what we are discussing here, and are just in it for the jokes or somewhat
Or perhaps it is your interpretation that i've added my own interpretation. Can Christ contradict Himself? Which other part of the Gospel does it mention Christ telling others to grab their swords and start chopping each other's heads off?
Or did i miss a bit?
Or am i reading the wrong Gospel?
Or is your only excuse that my interpretation is wrong?


I take this stuff very seriously. It's the people I don't take seriously--myself included--because 99% of the time people have no clue what they're talking about  :police:

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #106 on: March 18, 2012, 07:13:58 PM »
I'm not personally advocating for the pacifistic point of view, but I am aware that there are several sayings from the Early Church Fathers which CAN be used to support such a viewpoint. Since y'all are asking for evidence, here is some:

Saint Justin Martyr:
 
“The devil is the author of all war.”  “We, who used to kill one another, do not make war on our enemies. We refuse to tell lies or deceive our inquisitors; we prefer to die acknowledging Christ.”

Tertullian:

“But now inquiry is being made concerning these issues. First, can any believer enlist in the military? Second, can any soldier, even those of the rank and file or lesser grades who neither engage in pagan sacrifices nor capital punishment, be admitted into the church? No on both counts—for there is no agreement between the divine sacrament and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil, the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot serve two masters—God and Caesar…But how will a Christian engage in war—indeed, how will a Christian even engage in military service during peacetime—without the sword, which the Lord has taken away? For although soldiers had approached John to receive instructions and a centurion believed, this does not change the fact that afterward, the Lord, by disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier.”  

“Under no circumstances should a true Christian draw the sword.”

Hippolytus of Rome:

"“A soldier, being inferior in rank to God, must not kill anyone. If ordered to, he must not carry out the order, nor may he take an oath (sacramentum) to do so. If he does not accept this, let him be dismissed from the church. Anyone bearing the power of the sword, or any city magistrate, who wears purple, let him cease from wearing it at once or be dismissed from the church. Any catechumen or believer who wishes to become a soldier must be dismissed from the church because they have despised God.”


Saint Irenaeus:

"“Christians have changed their swords and their lances into instruments of peace, and they know not now how to fight.”

Saint Cyprian:

[Christians] are not allowed to kill, but they must be ready to be put to death themselves… it is not permitted the guiltless to put even the guilty to death.” “God wished iron to be used for the cultivation of the earth, and therefore it should not be used to take human life.


The source from which I draw these is, regrettably, this blog:

http://rogueminister.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/quotes-the-early-church-on-war-and-violence/

All it took was a simple Google search to find this. There are many more quotes from that blog which supports some kind of view of pacifism.

Ignoring the source and just taking the quotes for what they are, we at least now have evidence for a pacifistic argument.


Would you please post bibliographical references to the works you're citing so we can cross-reference them for ourselves? Thank you.

Okay, I see that you've at least posted a link to the site where you got these. I think that will be sufficient.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 07:15:05 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Aindriú

  • Faster! Funnier!
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,918
    • Blog
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #107 on: March 18, 2012, 08:04:59 PM »
Are you single?
Of whom are you asking this question?

Isaelie.

I'm curious, if someone violently anti-violence has anyone that she'd be willing to sacrifice in her quest for non-involvement.

I'm going to need this.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,127
  • Trolling Babylon 24/7, without apology!
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
  • Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #108 on: March 18, 2012, 08:49:28 PM »
But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam

What if the person has a gun?  What if that gun is pointed at your daughter, are you going to rush him and try to tackle him before he can fire it?  Suppose you have a gun, would you try and rush him, or would you put a bullet in his head?  And God sometimes does command people to establish justice, I recommend you read the Old Testament, where He commanded the Israelites to slaughter countless pagans.

I am familiar with the Old Testament. Do we still sacrifice bulls and goats to atone for sins? Do we still stone disobedient children? Why do the advocates of violence selectively appeal to the Old Testament in this one regard while adhering to the New Testament in all others?


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline Cognomen

  • Ungrateful Biped
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,155
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Wanderer, but Antioch and All the East
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #109 on: March 18, 2012, 08:52:38 PM »
Thank you, Bishoy, for actually providing Orthodox views from the Holy Fathers.  

I think this should sufficiently challenge the notion that this is a simple, 'we're for it!' situation.

If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline orthonorm

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,715
  • Ad Aluminum!
  • Faith: DSM 5
  • Jurisdiction: Apostle to the Church of ASD
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #110 on: March 18, 2012, 08:53:23 PM »
But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam

What if the person has a gun?  What if that gun is pointed at your daughter, are you going to rush him and try to tackle him before he can fire it?  Suppose you have a gun, would you try and rush him, or would you put a bullet in his head?  And God sometimes does command people to establish justice, I recommend you read the Old Testament, where He commanded the Israelites to slaughter countless pagans.

I am familiar with the Old Testament. Do we still sacrifice bulls and goats to atone for sins? Do we still stone disobedient children? Why do the advocates of violence selectively appeal to the Old Testament in this one regard while adhering to the New Testament in all others?


Selam

Cause they would have to die if they didn't. Or at least go to prison.

Offline Aindriú

  • Faster! Funnier!
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,918
    • Blog
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #111 on: March 18, 2012, 08:53:36 PM »
But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam

What if the person has a gun?  What if that gun is pointed at your daughter, are you going to rush him and try to tackle him before he can fire it?  Suppose you have a gun, would you try and rush him, or would you put a bullet in his head?  And God sometimes does command people to establish justice, I recommend you read the Old Testament, where He commanded the Israelites to slaughter countless pagans.

I am familiar with the Old Testament. Do we still sacrifice bulls and goats to atone for sins? Do we still stone disobedient children? Why do the advocates of violence selectively appeal to the Old Testament in this one regard while adhering to the New Testament in all others?


Selam

For balance. Because pure pacifism requires one to disengage from society entirely. A logical conclusion would allow an Anarchy where bad men are allowed to roam free.

I'm going to need this.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #112 on: March 18, 2012, 08:55:54 PM »
I'm not personally advocating for the pacifistic point of view, but I am aware that there are several sayings from the Early Church Fathers which CAN be used to support such a viewpoint. Since y'all are asking for evidence, here is some:

Saint Justin Martyr:
 
“The devil is the author of all war.”  “We, who used to kill one another, do not make war on our enemies. We refuse to tell lies or deceive our inquisitors; we prefer to die acknowledging Christ.”

Tertullian:

“But now inquiry is being made concerning these issues. First, can any believer enlist in the military? Second, can any soldier, even those of the rank and file or lesser grades who neither engage in pagan sacrifices nor capital punishment, be admitted into the church? No on both counts—for there is no agreement between the divine sacrament and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil, the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot serve two masters—God and Caesar…But how will a Christian engage in war—indeed, how will a Christian even engage in military service during peacetime—without the sword, which the Lord has taken away? For although soldiers had approached John to receive instructions and a centurion believed, this does not change the fact that afterward, the Lord, by disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier.”  

“Under no circumstances should a true Christian draw the sword.”

Hippolytus of Rome:

"“A soldier, being inferior in rank to God, must not kill anyone. If ordered to, he must not carry out the order, nor may he take an oath (sacramentum) to do so. If he does not accept this, let him be dismissed from the church. Anyone bearing the power of the sword, or any city magistrate, who wears purple, let him cease from wearing it at once or be dismissed from the church. Any catechumen or believer who wishes to become a soldier must be dismissed from the church because they have despised God.”


Saint Irenaeus:

"“Christians have changed their swords and their lances into instruments of peace, and they know not now how to fight.”

Saint Cyprian:

[Christians] are not allowed to kill, but they must be ready to be put to death themselves… it is not permitted the guiltless to put even the guilty to death.” “God wished iron to be used for the cultivation of the earth, and therefore it should not be used to take human life.


The source from which I draw these is, regrettably, this blog:

http://rogueminister.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/quotes-the-early-church-on-war-and-violence/

All it took was a simple Google search to find this. There are many more quotes from that blog which supports some kind of view of pacifism.

Ignoring the source and just taking the quotes for what they are, we at least now have evidence for a pacifistic argument.


BTW, thanks for posting this, for this is what I was looking for.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline orthonorm

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,715
  • Ad Aluminum!
  • Faith: DSM 5
  • Jurisdiction: Apostle to the Church of ASD
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #113 on: March 18, 2012, 09:01:55 PM »
But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam

What if the person has a gun?  What if that gun is pointed at your daughter, are you going to rush him and try to tackle him before he can fire it?  Suppose you have a gun, would you try and rush him, or would you put a bullet in his head?  And God sometimes does command people to establish justice, I recommend you read the Old Testament, where He commanded the Israelites to slaughter countless pagans.

I am familiar with the Old Testament. Do we still sacrifice bulls and goats to atone for sins? Do we still stone disobedient children? Why do the advocates of violence selectively appeal to the Old Testament in this one regard while adhering to the New Testament in all others?


Selam

For balance. Because pure pacifism requires one to disengage from society entirely. A logical conclusion would allow an Anarchy where bad men are allowed to roam free.

Quote from: Revelations 21 - KJV
10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Offline Cognomen

  • Ungrateful Biped
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,155
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Wanderer, but Antioch and All the East
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #114 on: March 18, 2012, 09:06:23 PM »
You also assume that a soldier's job is to kill. No, a soldier(and police) will use all means necessary to include killing. It just so happens those a soldier goes against intend to use weapons, otherwise they are captured.

You shouldn't want to kill. Killing is horrible. It's a taking of another life. I understand this. However, I also understand that life is so precious that it is worth defending, even to my own detriment.

Have you spent a lot of time with infantry/SOCOM/Intl SF folks?  Let's not pretend that actual combat isn't killing and blowing stuff up.

Part of the distinction arises from modern, bureaucratic armed forces, which are filled with non-combat roles, disparagingly referred to as pogs (pogues) by US combat units.

I think the quotes from bishoy speak to your point though.  The opinions of the Fathers cited indicate that serving is not necessarily a problem, but killing is an issue.  This also indicates that Christ's words were not some metaphor to be discounted.  I'm pretty sure he wants us to help poor, sick, and imprisoned folks too.  Or do we Orthodox have a tradition that indicates otherwise?
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,127
  • Trolling Babylon 24/7, without apology!
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
  • Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #115 on: March 18, 2012, 09:19:23 PM »
But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam


Sometimes it takes more than a non-violent response. Let's think of scenarios where non-violence isn't enough. 'What if' it's not just you, a rapist, and a strange girl. What if it's a gang, you, and a strange girl? What if it's your family that will be on the receiving end of an aggressive person/group/army, and the only thing stopping it is you (maybe some friends, as well?). What if it's your friend beside you who's about to be shot as you're patrolling some rabid islamic desert trying to keep some semblance of law.

To allow something, is to accept it.


I appreciate the sincere and important question. Any serious advocate of nonviolence must honestly wrestle with these issues and consider the consequences and ramifications of such a philosophy. One thing is an indisputable fact: neither pacifism, militarism, or any "just war" theory will eradicate evil and establish a pacific utopia on earth. Therefore, our duty as Christians is to wed ourselves to the most Christ-like means of addressing injustices and dealing with the sins and complexities of a fallen world. And I myself dare not presume to reinterpret the message and example of Our Lord in order to justify my own subjective rationale for violence.

One other thing I must also point out, and I do so respectfully but forthrightly. If anyone condemns pacifism as "allowing and accepting evil" then they condemn Christ Our Lord Himself. Surely Christ knew that His disciples would face violent and unjust deaths at the hands of evil men. Surely He had the omnipotent capacity to stop such evil and injustice. But He didn't. So, if you condemn pacifists for allowing the innocent to be killed, then you condemn Our Lord as well. You can try to rationalize it by talking about the Cross being a specific mission to atone for the sins of the world - which indeed it was - but the nonviolent actions of Christ still resulted in the deaths of His disciples. However, we know the rest of the story. We know that their deaths were not in vain. In fact, as Tertullian said, "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church." Therefore, by faith, we too must trust that God is ultimately in control and that whatever results from our nonviolent actions is not in vain.

What are we to make of the millions upon millions of innocent unborn babies who are slaughtered because nobody takes up the sword to save them? Are their short lives and tragic deaths in vain? Are they forsaken by God? Should we take up arms and begin shooting abortionists and bombing abortion clinics? Well, I say unequivocally "NO!" But I also say that if anyone thinks that violence is ever justified and necessary, then most certainly it would be justifiable to use it in defense of the unborn, "the least of these." But I have noticed that those who believe in justifiable violence seem more concerned with preserving violence for themselves and their own families while eschewing it as a means of defending those with whom they have nothing to do. I have more respect for a Paul Hill who used violence to rescue the innocent victims of his own country than for those who scorn the unborn yet travel half way across the world to kill their fellow man in the name of a nation that allows the slaughter of its own innocents.


"In peace let us pray to the Lord."


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #116 on: March 18, 2012, 09:28:19 PM »
Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Note that He did not say "don't serve in the military". Note also that in His several conversations with Roman soldiers, He never tells them to quit the army. In fact, overall, Roman soldiers get far better treatment in the Gospels than, say, the Pharisees.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,127
  • Trolling Babylon 24/7, without apology!
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
  • Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #117 on: March 18, 2012, 09:29:17 PM »
But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam

What if the person has a gun?  What if that gun is pointed at your daughter, are you going to rush him and try to tackle him before he can fire it?  Suppose you have a gun, would you try and rush him, or would you put a bullet in his head?  And God sometimes does command people to establish justice, I recommend you read the Old Testament, where He commanded the Israelites to slaughter countless pagans.

I am familiar with the Old Testament. Do we still sacrifice bulls and goats to atone for sins? Do we still stone disobedient children? Why do the advocates of violence selectively appeal to the Old Testament in this one regard while adhering to the New Testament in all others?


Selam

For balance. Because pure pacifism requires one to disengage from society entirely. A logical conclusion would allow an Anarchy where bad men are allowed to roam free.


I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,127
  • Trolling Babylon 24/7, without apology!
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
  • Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #118 on: March 18, 2012, 09:31:38 PM »
Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Note that He did not say "don't serve in the military". Note also that in His several conversations with Roman soldiers, He never tells them to quit the army. In fact, overall, Roman soldiers get far better treatment in the Gospels than, say, the Pharisees.



As I mentioned earlier, drunkards and prostitutes also received much better treatment in the Gospels than the Pharisees. Are we to extrapolate from this that prostitution and drunkeness are quite compatible with the Christian life?


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline Aindriú

  • Faster! Funnier!
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,918
    • Blog
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #119 on: March 18, 2012, 09:33:15 PM »
Have you spent a lot of time with infantry/SOCOM/Intl SF folks?  Let's not pretend that actual combat isn't killing and blowing stuff up.

Did I say that? No, I said that it's purpose isn't all Modern Warfare 3.

Part of the distinction arises from modern, bureaucratic armed forces, which are filled with non-combat roles, disparagingly referred to as pogs (pogues) by US combat units.

A pogue is for someone who isn't infantry. They could still be combat related. And it's an Army term, not "US combat units", whatever that is.

I think the quotes from bishoy speak to your point though.

If quote mining was the source of faith, we could all be papists.

The opinions of the Fathers cited indicate that serving is not necessarily a problem, but killing is an issue. 

I never said killing wasn't an issue. I said it is sometimes* morally obligatory.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 09:56:51 PM by Aindriú »

I'm going to need this.

Offline Aindriú

  • Faster! Funnier!
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,918
    • Blog
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #120 on: March 18, 2012, 09:35:33 PM »
As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.


Selam

I can agree with you here, Gebre. I also know however, that there are times, despite our best efforts, that require more.

I'm going to need this.

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #121 on: March 18, 2012, 09:39:18 PM »
Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Note that He did not say "don't serve in the military". Note also that in His several conversations with Roman soldiers, He never tells them to quit the army. In fact, overall, Roman soldiers get far better treatment in the Gospels than, say, the Pharisees.



As I mentioned earlier, drunkards and prostitutes also received much better treatment in the Gospels than the Pharisees. Are we to extrapolate from this that prostitution and drunkeness are quite compatible with the Christian life?


Selam

And He told them, "Go forth and sin no more". He did not say to Roman soldiers, "Go forth and be AWOL"


Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #122 on: March 18, 2012, 09:41:42 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,522
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #123 on: March 18, 2012, 09:50:10 PM »
How did Christ deal with the centurion, John the Baptist with the soldiers that came to him, or Peter with Cornelius?
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Cognomen

  • Ungrateful Biped
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,155
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Wanderer, but Antioch and All the East
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #124 on: March 18, 2012, 09:50:26 PM »
Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Note that He did not say "don't serve in the military". Note also that in His several conversations with Roman soldiers, He never tells them to quit the army. In fact, overall, Roman soldiers get far better treatment in the Gospels than, say, the Pharisees.



As I mentioned earlier, drunkards and prostitutes also received much better treatment in the Gospels than the Pharisees. Are we to extrapolate from this that prostitution and drunkeness are quite compatible with the Christian life?


Selam

And He told them, "Go forth and sin no more". He did not say to Roman soldiers, "Go forth and be AWOL"

Right, but if sinning includes killing (which is pretty universally accepted as a sin in the Orthodox Church), then that could be implied.  Further, the quotes of the Fathers (I wish the website better cited where these quotes were from) seemed to indicate that he should go AWOL if ordered to war or kill.

Christ also didn't make the Centurion free his slave.  Can I get my slave on?
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline Cognomen

  • Ungrateful Biped
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,155
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Wanderer, but Antioch and All the East
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #125 on: March 18, 2012, 09:57:47 PM »
How did Christ deal with the centurion, John the Baptist with the soldiers that came to him, or Peter with Cornelius?

True, but aren't you inferring a more expansive meaning than what may actually be there?  Are there Orthodox sources that confirm your implied view?  If not, it seems similar to what Isaelie was criticized for.
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,127
  • Trolling Babylon 24/7, without apology!
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
  • Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #126 on: March 18, 2012, 09:59:16 PM »
Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Note that He did not say "don't serve in the military". Note also that in His several conversations with Roman soldiers, He never tells them to quit the army. In fact, overall, Roman soldiers get far better treatment in the Gospels than, say, the Pharisees.



As I mentioned earlier, drunkards and prostitutes also received much better treatment in the Gospels than the Pharisees. Are we to extrapolate from this that prostitution and drunkeness are quite compatible with the Christian life?


Selam

And He told them, "Go forth and sin no more". He did not say to Roman soldiers, "Go forth and be AWOL"

Right, but if sinning includes killing (which is pretty universally accepted as a sin in the Orthodox Church), then that could be implied.  Further, the quotes of the Fathers (I wish the website better cited where these quotes were from) seemed to indicate that he should go AWOL if ordered to war or kill.

Christ also didn't make the Centurion free his slave.  Can I get my slave on?

Good point. In fact, such a gross interpretation of Scripture was often used to justify slavery in the Confederacy.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,127
  • Trolling Babylon 24/7, without apology!
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
  • Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #127 on: March 18, 2012, 10:00:24 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you spank your children in violence; I do not.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline Aindriú

  • Faster! Funnier!
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,918
    • Blog
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #128 on: March 18, 2012, 10:08:54 PM »
A selection from a book that you may find interesting:

Quote
Among early Christians there is a certain ambiguity toward war that
emerges from one's reading of patristic sources. The conventional portrait of
the early Church that comes to us is that the early Christians were uniformly
pacifistic, followed by the Church's fourth-century "compromise" with the
Roman Empire. Beginning with Constantine's rule, it is typically argued,
Christians "prostituted" themselves to secular authority. This portrait, however,
does not bear up under close scrutiny. It errs both in its oversimplifying
early Christians' relation to the state and in its attributing to fourthcentury
Christians an overly uncritical attitude toward governing authorities.
As Augustine painstakingly argues in his magisterial City of God, there are
civic duties that are required of the Christian believer, even in a culture
that is (quite literally) crumbling. That duty may encompass preserving the
social order (soldiering), bearing arms, and defending innocent third parties
against gross injustice.

On balance, the limited evidence we have of early Christian attitudes
toward war is inconclusive. Both strands—pacifist and non-pacifist—can be
detected. Clearly, many Christians did oppose military service, but this was
not universal. Nor was opposition due to explicit prohibitions in the NT, evidenced
by the fact that soldiers in the NT are never called to abandon their
profession.13 Even Christian historian Roland Bainton, who himself has
contributed substantially to a pacifist reading of the early Church, concedes
from the existing evidence that while "ecclesiastical authors before Constantine
condemned participation in warfare," this is not the case regarding
military service "in time of peace" and soldiering in general.14 James Turner
Johnson has also closely examined the writings of the early Church fathers
that mirror attitudes toward war and soldiering. His conclusion, following a
careful and even more judicious reading of these sources than Bainton's, is
that evidence is mixed.15 Thus, it is fair to contend that the early Church
was not absolutist on either pacifism or military service.

III. DEVELOPMENT OF JUST-WAR THINKING IN
HISTORIC CHRISTIAN THOUGHT1 6

For St. Ambrose and St. Augustine, from whose writings Christian justwar
thinking is thought initially to derive, two common elements in their
reflections on war are striking. One is the hortatory tenor with which both
admonish fellow Christians not to remain aloof from affairs of the state as
they wait for the eschaton. The "earthly city" is never wholly free from the
dangers of human depravity, bloodshed, and war. This will mean that in order
to preserve the basis upon which peace and order reside, a justly ordered
application of force is necessary. Short of the eschaton, that heavenly city,
justice must preserve a penultimate form of peace. Christians are by no means
absolved from society's duty to preserve justice.
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/48/48-3/JETS_48-3_589-608.pdf
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 10:09:04 PM by Aindriú »

I'm going to need this.

Offline Cognomen

  • Ungrateful Biped
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,155
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Wanderer, but Antioch and All the East
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #129 on: March 18, 2012, 10:12:42 PM »
Good point. In fact, such a gross interpretation of Scripture was often used to justify slavery in the Confederacy.

Understanding the sensitivity of the subject, perhaps neither are condemned (military service or slavery), because neither, in and of themselves, is sinful.  It's the frequently associated conditions, e.g. killing, human degradation, etc that is the actual sin.

Then again, the NT isn't an exhaustive listing of do's and don'ts.  Seems we frequently weasel our way out of the few specific commandments the Lord gave anyway.
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #130 on: March 18, 2012, 10:16:13 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you should stop trying to bully others out of discussions in this way.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 10:24:28 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Cognomen

  • Ungrateful Biped
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,155
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Wanderer, but Antioch and All the East
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #131 on: March 18, 2012, 10:22:31 PM »
Thanks for posting that, Andrieu.  As my previous jus in bello comment indicated, I think Just War Theory should play a large role in this discussion (although maybe that's a separate thread entirely).
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,256
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #132 on: March 18, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »
Whoever wrote this does not know the LORD.
I'm finished here. Goodbye - I've gotten my point across but no matter what I and Gebre Menfes Kidus say your hearts are so hardened - you will find anything to excuse the Love that God calls us to have.

Have you heard of this thing called 'Lent'?  It's really great, I encourage you to check it out.
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,256
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #133 on: March 18, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »
Or am i reading the wrong Gospel?

No, you are reading the Gospel wrong.
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,256
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #134 on: March 18, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »
But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam

What if the person has a gun?  What if that gun is pointed at your daughter, are you going to rush him and try to tackle him before he can fire it?  Suppose you have a gun, would you try and rush him, or would you put a bullet in his head?  And God sometimes does command people to establish justice, I recommend you read the Old Testament, where He commanded the Israelites to slaughter countless pagans.

I am familiar with the Old Testament. Do we still sacrifice bulls and goats to atone for sins? Do we still stone disobedient children? Why do the advocates of violence selectively appeal to the Old Testament in this one regard while adhering to the New Testament in all others?


Selam

Who exactly advocates violence?  This is why people don't take you seriously.
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011