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Author Topic: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces  (Read 12988 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2012, 12:39:52 AM »

Hey Opus118,

It's a tragedy that the others don't think so. I wish they did, not because 'It is my personal interpretation' but simply because it is the Truth.

Some of us have witnessed firsthand some horrid things in this world (mass killings etc) that could have been prevented if one person would have brought "a sword" with them. I'm not for attacking, but I'm all about protecting life. Kill one violent criminal to save 50 innocent lives? You bet.
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« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2012, 01:09:32 AM »

Some of us have witnessed firsthand some horrid things in this world (mass killings etc) that could have been prevented if one person would have brought "a sword" with them. I'm not for attacking, but I'm all about protecting life. Kill one violent criminal to save 50 innocent lives? You bet.

What is the connection to Orthodox teaching?  You've simply made up a calculation.

I find this to be a very meaningful question, and I hope we can muster a bit better debate than:
"The Orthodox position is simple: if you're wearing a uniform, you can kill people. Jesus mentioned buying a sword."

What of jus in bello?  Haven't heard a peep of that.
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« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2012, 01:13:17 AM »

Also, there are many soldiers who have served and never fired a gun, outside of target practice.  Are they not allowed to work in order to support themselves and their families?
In all fairness to both sides, I suppose the same question could be asked of a stripper.
  can it?
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« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2012, 01:15:44 AM »

Also, there are many soldiers who have served and never fired a gun, outside of target practice.  Are they not allowed to work in order to support themselves and their families?
In all fairness to both sides, I suppose the same question could be asked of a stripper.
Can it?
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« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2012, 01:21:16 AM »

Gamliel, if you're trying to justify war because it provides jobs - I will pray for you
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« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2012, 01:25:50 AM »

Also, there are many soldiers who have served and never fired a gun, outside of target practice.  Are they not allowed to work in order to support themselves and their families?
In all fairness to both sides, I suppose the same question could be asked of a stripper.

No, the better question to compare it to is this: Are management of strip clubs no allowed to work in order to support themselves and their families?
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« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2012, 01:25:50 AM »

You do realize that the OP asked for an Orthodox view of the armed forces?

You must have missed about 20% of the Orthodox Calendar...

What are you guys saying... I don't understand
Essentially, they're saying that what you say doesn't represent an Orthodox view and noting that the Church has many feasts celebrating military victory. Orthodox pacifism is a thing, but it's a minority position.

Not to mention those countless Orthodox Saints who were military heroes...
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« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2012, 01:25:50 AM »

The God of the OT certainly isn't a pacifist...

How dare you!  God is love!  Know you nothing at all!  All those stories of slaughtering massive numbers of Caananites at the orders of God are really just fables designed to express how God hates paganism.
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« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2012, 01:25:50 AM »

The God of the New Testament is

I am glad to meet you Marcion.  I've always wondered what it would be like to meet such a famous man from ancient times.
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« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2012, 01:25:50 AM »

Is the translation wrong?

No, the interpretation is.
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« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2012, 01:25:50 AM »

Hey Opus118,

It's a tragedy that the others don't think so. I wish they did, not because 'It is my personal interpretation' but simply because it is the Truth.

I wonder if Sts. King Alfred the Great, Demetrius of Thessaloniki, George, Sergius and Bacchus, Titus the Soldier of the Kiev Caves, Alexander Nevsky, and Theodore the Righteous Admiral of the Russian Naval Fleet, would have to say about that "Truth"?
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« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2012, 01:32:19 AM »

I'm glad that we agree that God is love.

And LOL you call me Marcion - you took what i said out of context - you knew what i was trying to say (i hope).

So please answer my question JamesRottnek, what are you saying?? What is the true interpretation.. (I'm honest.. I just want to know what you think - or what you claim the Orthodox Church thinks)
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« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2012, 01:34:12 AM »

Military heroes <------------- LOLOLOLOLOL

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« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2012, 01:34:34 AM »

I wonder if Sts. King Alfred the Great, Demetrius of Thessaloniki, George, Sergius and Bacchus, Titus the Soldier of the Kiev Caves, Alexander Nevsky, and Theodore the Righteous Admiral of the Russian Naval Fleet, would have to say about that "Truth"?

To be fair, some of the above, St. George most obviously, are not glorified as saints because of their body counts and tactical prowess. St. George was martyred because he refused to carry out military orders.

Again, I don't think it's as simple of an issue as either side is trying to make it.  To the OP question, yes, Orthodoxy is generally supportive of armed forces and prays for its members.  We pray for lots of people and things though.  
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« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2012, 01:36:47 AM »

"To be fair, some of the above, St. George most obviously, are not glorified as saints because of their body counts and tactical prowess. St. George was martyred because he refused to carry out military orders."

AMEN

I'm going to go buy myself some explosives and become a 'military hero' because
by doing this, i win God's favour      <<<---------- LOLOLOL
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« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2012, 01:38:28 AM »

It's like exalting St Mary of Egypt for being a good harlot
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« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2012, 01:42:18 AM »

"To be fair, some of the above, St. George most obviously, are not glorified as saints because of their body counts and tactical prowess. St. George was martyred because he refused to carry out military orders."

AMEN

I'm going to go buy myself some explosives and become a 'military hero' because
by doing this, i win God's favour      <<<---------- LOLOLOL

But at the same time, it's clear that saints have been glorified, in part, for their participation and/or success in the violent "defense of the faith."  Personally, I find some cases more compelling than others, and it's probably wrong that I question the validity of certain saints, but it happens.
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« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2012, 01:45:45 AM »

But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless
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« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2012, 01:53:26 AM »

Military heroes <------------- LOLOLOLOLOL



I fail to find the humor here.
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« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2012, 02:04:45 AM »

Gamliel, if you're trying to justify war because it provides jobs - I will pray for you
And how is this not an ad hominem?
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« Reply #65 on: March 18, 2012, 02:11:08 AM »

You do realize that the OP asked for an Orthodox view of the armed forces?
What I'm saying is that I see no evidence to believe you're spouting anything more than your personal interpretation of the Gospel.
And, isaelie, your response to this was not to do anything to suggest that your view may be something more than just your own opinion--for instance, citing support for your position from the Fathers, councils, and liturgical witness of the Church. Instead, you chose to launch emotion-based attacks on those points of view that disagree with yours and on the persons who hold them.
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« Reply #66 on: March 18, 2012, 02:30:45 AM »

Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

You make me laugh Aindriu because you think I was saying that by not killing other people we are looking the other way. I love the 'sigh' as well as if your reply is one which speak the truth. You know when Jesus was there to rebuke St Peter, you should of been there to spit in his face and say 'You're wrong, we should slay all these soldiers.'

Or perhaps you should of been there to rebuke the LORD when he was telling Jonah:
“You have had pity on the plant for which you have not labored, nor made it grow, which came up in a night and perished in a night. And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?”

Or perhaps Jesus was fooling around when He said 'Love your enemy'. How can you kill the people Christ has died for? Are the people you are fighting not made in the image of God?

Which one is it sir?


Good points. I'm glad to see someone else making the same arguments for nonviolence that I often make. To err on the side of Life is never wrong. To presume that killing is justified for the Christian is a dangerous presumption that has horrific consequences. There is a way to preserve life and souls without violence and killing. But it means following Christ and not presuming to have better solutions than the ones Our Lord ordained for us.


Selam
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« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2012, 03:04:55 AM »

Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

You make me laugh Aindriu because you think I was saying that by not killing other people we are looking the other way. I love the 'sigh' as well as if your reply is one which speak the truth. You know when Jesus was there to rebuke St Peter, you should of been there to spit in his face and say 'You're wrong, we should slay all these soldiers.'

Or perhaps you should of been there to rebuke the LORD when he was telling Jonah:
“You have had pity on the plant for which you have not labored, nor made it grow, which came up in a night and perished in a night. And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?”

Or perhaps Jesus was fooling around when He said 'Love your enemy'. How can you kill the people Christ has died for? Are the people you are fighting not made in the image of God?

Which one is it sir?


Good points. I'm glad to see someone else making the same arguments for nonviolence that I often make. To err on the side of Life is never wrong. To presume that killing is justified for the Christian is a dangerous presumption that has horrific consequences. There is a way to preserve life and souls without violence and killing. But it means following Christ and not presuming to have better solutions than the ones Our Lord ordained for us.


Selam
So you praise her because she agrees with you? What evidence can you provide to suggest that you're not just spouting your own personal opinion?
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« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2012, 03:59:44 AM »

I'm glad that we agree that God is love.

And LOL you call me Marcion - you took what i said out of context - you knew what i was trying to say (i hope).

So please answer my question JamesRottnek, what are you saying?? What is the true interpretation.. (I'm honest.. I just want to know what you think - or what you claim the Orthodox Church thinks)

What you said was not out of context.  You contrasted Christ with the Father.  God's actions in the Old Testament are no less representative of what we should be doing than His actions in the New Testament.  The Church is not disjointed from Israel; it is Israel. 

As to what I think the correct interpretation is, well, when Christ says to turn the other cheek, I believe He is referring to personal insults.  When someone attacks our honor, when someone belittles us, we are not to react to it.  We are to accept it.  We are to humble ourselves, as He did.  However, that is quite a different matter than complete and total pacifism in the face of evil.  Let me ask you this: if you saw a man raping a little girl, would you try and stop him?  Would you use force to do so?  Would you call the police so that they could use force to do so?  If so, then I really don't understand how you can oppose any and all war.
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« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2012, 03:59:44 AM »

"To be fair, some of the above, St. George most obviously, are not glorified as saints because of their body counts and tactical prowess. St. George was martyred because he refused to carry out military orders."

AMEN

I'm going to go buy myself some explosives and become a 'military hero' because
by doing this, i win God's favour      <<<---------- LOLOLOL

But at the same time, it's clear that saints have been glorified, in part, for their participation and/or success in the violent "defense of the faith."  Personally, I find some cases more compelling than others, and it's probably wrong that I question the validity of certain saints, but it happens.

St. Alexander Nevsky, for instance, has had his military conquests supported by the Church.
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« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2012, 03:59:44 AM »

But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?
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« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2012, 06:02:52 AM »

Jesus spoke at least on one occasion with a Roman centurion and did not rebuke him.
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« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2012, 06:14:11 AM »

But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam
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« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2012, 06:16:27 AM »

Jesus spoke at least on one occasion with a Roman centurion and did not rebuke him.

Nor did He bless his military involvement. By your logic, we can also assume that prostitution and drunkeness are compatible with the Christian life since Our Lord spoke to harlots and drunkards without rebuking them.


Selam
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« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2012, 06:20:40 AM »

Gamliel, if you're trying to justify war because it provides jobs - I will pray for you
And how is this not an ad hominem?

You still don't know what those words mean after using them so often?
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« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2012, 06:23:21 AM »

we can also assume that prostitution and drunkeness are compatible with the Christian life since Our Lord spoke to harlots and drunkards without rebuking them.


Selam

And I read this AFTER St. Patrick's Day.
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« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2012, 08:31:48 AM »

But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam

You also assume that a soldier's job is to kill. No, a soldier(and police) will use all means necessary to include killing. It just so happens those a soldier goes against intend to use weapons, otherwise they are captured.

You shouldn't want to kill. Killing is horrible. It's a taking of another life. I understand this. However, I also understand that life is so precious that it is worth defending, even to my own detriment.

Sometimes it takes more than a non-violent response. Let's think of scenarios where non-violence isn't enough. 'What if' it's not just you, a rapist, and a strange girl. What if it's a gang, you, and a strange girl? What if it's your family that will be on the receiving end of an aggressive person/group/army, and the only thing stopping it is you (maybe some friends, as well?). What if it's your friend beside you who's about to be shot as you're patrolling some rabid islamic desert trying to keep some semblance of law.

To allow something, is to accept it.
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« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2012, 08:32:46 AM »

Military heroes <------------- LOLOLOLOLOL
Response.
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« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2012, 08:38:41 AM »

But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam

What if the person has a gun?  What if that gun is pointed at your daughter, are you going to rush him and try to tackle him before he can fire it?  Suppose you have a gun, would you try and rush him, or would you put a bullet in his head?  And God sometimes does command people to establish justice, I recommend you read the Old Testament, where He commanded the Israelites to slaughter countless pagans.
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« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2012, 09:35:24 AM »

It's one thing to turn your own cheek. It's another, to look the other way, when one recognizes evil.

Oh snap!
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« Reply #80 on: March 18, 2012, 10:40:52 AM »

But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam

You also assume that a soldier's job is to kill. No, a soldier(and police) will use all means necessary to include killing. It just so happens those a soldier goes against intend to use weapons, otherwise they are captured.

You shouldn't want to kill. Killing is horrible. It's a taking of another life. I understand this. However, I also understand that life is so precious that it is worth defending, even to my own detriment.

Sometimes it takes more than a non-violent response. Let's think of scenarios where non-violence isn't enough. 'What if' it's not just you, a rapist, and a strange girl. What if it's a gang, you, and a strange girl? What if it's your family that will be on the receiving end of an aggressive person/group/army, and the only thing stopping it is you (maybe some friends, as well?). What if it's your friend beside you who's about to be shot as you're patrolling some rabid islamic desert trying to keep some semblance of law.

To allow something, is to accept it.
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« Reply #81 on: March 18, 2012, 10:55:25 AM »

Is there anyone here who can give an Orthodox view of the armed forces? Huh
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« Reply #82 on: March 18, 2012, 11:13:18 AM »

Is there anyone here who can give an Orthodox view of the armed forces? Huh

From http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/46/
Quote
Question Number 46:

What is the Orthodox view on war and military service?

ANSWER: Orthodoxy takes in account the fullness of Biblical teaching, as well as the teachings of the Early Church Fathers, both pre and post Nicene. Orthodox Christianity views war and killing as sinful. In Orthodox canonical rules, soldiers who had to kill at war - which is recognized as unavoidable in certain cases - are subject to penance. Orthodox Clergy are never allowed to take part in warfare, and the fact that Latin clergy were soldiers at the times of the Crusades was especially intolerable to the Orthodox.

A useful quote from from Moscow Defense Brief: Perhaps the most remarkable and culturally relevant illustration of the Orthodox attitude towards war is contained in the history of the life of St. Sergius of Radonezh, who blessed Prince Dmitry Donskoy to engage the enemy in the famous battle of Kullikovskaya. According to his Life, prior to marching off to fight the Tartar Khan Mamay, Prince Dmitry visited Abbot Sergius at the Troitskaya Monastery, now known as the Trinity St. Sergius Lavra. There the abbot did not immediately bless the prince for the coming battle, but first inquired of the prince if he had tried "to please that obnoxious Mamay with gifts or favor." (Luke 14:31) And only Question Number 46:

What is the Orthodox view on war and military service?

ANSWER: Orthodoxy takes in account the fullness of Biblical teaching, as well as the teachings of the Early Church Fathers, both pre and post Nicene. Orthodox Christianity views war and killing as sinful. In Orthodox canonical rules, soldiers who had to kill at war - which is recognized as unavoidable in certain cases - are subject to penance. Orthodox Clergy are never allowed to take part in warfare, and the fact that Latin clergy were soldiers at the times of the Crusades was especially intolerable to the Orthodox.

A useful quote from from Moscow Defense Brief: Perhaps the most remarkable and culturally relevant illustration of the Orthodox attitude towards war is contained in the history of the life of St. Sergius of Radonezh, who blessed Prince Dmitry Donskoy to engage the enemy in the famous battle of Kullikovskaya. According to his Life, prior to marching off to fight the Tartar Khan Mamay, Prince Dmitry visited Abbot Sergius at the Troitskaya Monastery, now known as the Trinity St. Sergius Lavra. There the abbot did not immediately bless the prince for the coming battle, but first inquired of the prince if he had tried "to please that obnoxious Mamay with gifts or favor." (Luke 14:31) And only when the prince confirmed that he had taken all possible measures so as to conciliate this warlike and yet inexorable Khan did St. Sergius give his blessing. when the prince confirmed that he had taken all possible measures so as to conciliate this warlike and yet inexorable Khan did St. Sergius give his blessing.


Notice it mentions killing, but not serving in the military...
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« Reply #83 on: March 18, 2012, 11:18:20 AM »

Also, from http://www.stgeorgecathedral.net/article_0103.html

Quote
Peace and War in The Eastern Orthodox Church Part 2 of 2 Part 1 From the January 2003 "Messenger"

How can these seemingly opposite emphases co-exist in the Orthodox Christian tradition? Perhaps it can be best understood by the unique applications of “akrievia” and “economia” in Orthodox ethics and canon law. “Akrievia” represents the strict application of the gospel principles embodied in canon law. “Economia” is a dispensation from this strict requirement in view of human weakness and the compromising circumstances of life in a fallen world. Perhaps divorce provides a good example. According to “akrievia,” the norm is one marriage for life, and divorce and remarriage constitutes adultery. This is a direct word of the Lord. Nonetheless, the Orthodox Church blesses the remarriage of divorced persons in various circumstances as an act of mercy, knowing the frailties of our fallen nature and the difficult situations of life. Simultaneously, the norm is upheld and there is an accommodation to the realities of fallen world - a concept and practice that may seem contradictory to Western Christians. Similarly, peace is the norm and goal of Christian life for all. In its very nature, it embodies the gospel of the kingdom. War by nature is a manifestation of sin, and therefore, can never be “just.” War is to be avoided at all costs, and the peaceful resolution of human conflicts is to be pursued without limitation. However, there are occasions when the peaceful resolution of conflict is in fact impossible. Such is the case when a hostile enemy attacks, and would deprive peace-loving Christian citizens of life and liberty. In such situations, a pacifistic position may indeed attract and beget violence because of its public refusal to defend even the innocent against violence and murder.

Orthodox Christians do indeed undertake warfare in such situations, but purely as a “necessary evil.” It is necessary because the innocent and good must be protected; it is evil because such protection involves the taking of human life, which by all accounts, is among the most terrible of crimes.

The Orthodox Church therefore is not pacifistic, although it in practices encourages governments always to pursue the “preferential option for peace.” Nonetheless, the Church recognizes that this world is fallen and is not yet equivalent to the kingdom of God. For this reason, governments in general cannot be held to the strict requirements of the gospel. Although under God’s authority, they belong to the fallen world. At times statesmanship fails, and Christians are called by their governments to defend their commonwealth by means of war, for to fail to do so would result in an increase in the measure of evil in the world.

This does not mean that war can be “just.” It may serve a just cause, but war itself is unjust by nature. The Orthodox Church therefore has never elaborated a theory of “just war.” For Orthodox Christians, “just war” is a contradiction in terms.

Again, more about war than military service.
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« Reply #84 on: March 18, 2012, 01:27:26 PM »

To Thee, our Captain, Queen of war, the battle trophies
won,
Thy people rescued by thine aid from peril, dedicate as
our offering of thanksgiving, O Theotokos,
As thou hast might which none by war can overcome,
From all forms of danger hast thou delivered me, that
I may cry unto thee:
Hail, O virgin unwedded bride.
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« Reply #85 on: March 18, 2012, 03:12:51 PM »

Do Orthodox priests serve as military chaplains?
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« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2012, 03:22:11 PM »

Do Orthodox priests serve as military chaplains?

Yes they do, in fact one came over from Germany to attend of of his parents funerals and visited my parish while back in the States. He preached a great homily on marrîage.
Also, the St. George Military Association lists a few orthodox chaplains on their website.
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« Reply #87 on: March 18, 2012, 03:56:56 PM »

Do Orthodox priests serve as military chaplains?

My pastor is a retired military chaplain.  We also have another retired military chaplain who concelebrates when he's not needed elsewhere in the area as a "fill-in" priest.  Until recently, we had yet another military chaplain serving on most Sundays when he was stationed at a nearby US Army base, but he has since been reassigned.
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« Reply #88 on: March 18, 2012, 04:23:57 PM »

"The Orthodox Church therefore is not pacifistic, although it in practices encourages governments always to pursue the “preferential option for peace.” Nonetheless, the Church recognizes that this world is fallen and is not yet equivalent to the kingdom of God. For this reason, governments in general cannot be held to the strict requirements of the gospel. Although under God’s authority, they belong to the fallen world. At times statesmanship fails, and Christians are called by their governments to defend their commonwealth by means of war, for to fail to do so would result in an increase in the measure of evil in the world."

Whoever wrote this does not know the LORD.
I'm finished here. Goodbye - I've gotten my point across but no matter what I and Gebre Menfes Kidus say your hearts are so hardened - you will find anything to excuse the Love that God calls us to have.

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« Reply #89 on: March 18, 2012, 04:27:41 PM »

Whoever wrote this does not know the LORD.
I'm finished here. Goodbye - I've gotten my point across but no matter what I and Gebre Menfes Kidus say your hearts are so hardened - you will find anything to excuse the Love that God calls us to have.

While you're spiritually discerning the condition of people's souls, could you give me a reading as well? Thanks!
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