Author Topic: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces  (Read 38023 times)

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Offline Shiny

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #135 on: March 18, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »
We should be using the weapons of the Holy Spirt and not the weapons of man.

I don't know I've struggled with this pacifism thing alot myself. I'm not sure if I agree with Tolstoy on the matter.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #136 on: March 18, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »
I think those quotes kind of reinforce my personal belief that Christianity disavows killing, under any circumstance. That said, don't we go to war because we love what is behind us and not hate was in front of us?

There was something Isa said awhile ago that we can clothe our neighbors but we will not allow them to ravage through or homes. Something like that, I wish he would chime in here.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #137 on: March 18, 2012, 10:40:06 PM »
I think those quotes kind of reinforce my personal belief that Christianity disavows killing, under any circumstance. That said, don't we go to war because we love what is behind us and not hate was in front of us?

There was something Isa said awhile ago that we can clothe our neighbors but we will not allow them to ravage through or homes. Something like that, I wish he would chime in here.

If someone asks you for something, you give them more and all that.

If you are going to go all red-letter here.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #138 on: March 18, 2012, 10:40:46 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you spank your children in violence; I do not.


Selam

And I shoot random passersby on occasion, not out of violence, but boredom.
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Offline Sauron

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #139 on: March 18, 2012, 11:03:09 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you spank your children in violence; I do not.

Selam

Oh, do you just wave your hands over them? You don't allow your hand to hit them so that it is detected by their nervous system?

Just what do you think "violence" is? (and don't say something cute like "it's not spanking")

Offline Sauron

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #140 on: March 18, 2012, 11:04:56 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you should stop trying to bully others out of discussions in this way.

Gebre doesn't know what "violence" means and you can't figure out what "bully" means. Let's get one more person who doesn't understand a simple word for the trifecta.


Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #141 on: March 18, 2012, 11:29:20 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you should stop trying to bully others out of discussions in this way.

Gebre doesn't know what "violence" means and you can't figure out what "bully" means. Let's get one more person who doesn't understand a simple word for the trifecta.


I rarely, if ever, defend Gebre, but.

From what i gathered from readings on many topics here and elsewhere, if done correctly, spanking is an act of love, and not violence. If the lesson is to be learned, then the spanking is to occur, but then love is shown and explaained why it happens.

While it involves violence, it is love, and not violnce, that the act is if done correctly.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #142 on: March 18, 2012, 11:45:59 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you should stop trying to bully others out of discussions in this way.

Gebre doesn't know what "violence" means and you can't figure out what "bully" means. Let's get one more person who doesn't understand a simple word for the trifecta.


I rarely, if ever, defend Gebre, but.

From what i gathered from readings on many topics here and elsewhere, if done correctly, spanking is an act of love, and not violence. If the lesson is to be learned, then the spanking is to occur, but then love is shown and explaained why it happens.

While it involves violence, it is love, and not violnce, that the act is if done correctly.

But evidently then, in Gebre's opinion, it is in no way an act of love to shoot gangsters who are trying to rape a little girl.  That is only an act of violence, no matter how you go about it.  What we should really do is pray, so that - if God pleases - the Lord can send down a regiment of angels to strike dead the gangsters.  We should not take it into our own hands, as God may wish to teach the little girl a lesson, by allowing her to be raped.

Or, at least, this is what Gebre's logic amounts to, even if it isn't his actual opinion.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #143 on: March 18, 2012, 11:47:16 PM »
But you and I know that the Defense of the Faith comes not from killing, but from this:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

Anyways I have Church in about an hour and still got to do some study.

God bless

Is it love to allow others to slaughter your children?

This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed. Nonviolence does not mean nonresistance. There is a way to fight evil and defend one's children without killing. If our nonviolence results in our own death or the death of others, then we can be assured that God will recompense the evildoers and reward the innocent victims. God does not ask or command us to violently establish the justice belongs to Him alone.


Selam

What if the person has a gun?  What if that gun is pointed at your daughter, are you going to rush him and try to tackle him before he can fire it?  Suppose you have a gun, would you try and rush him, or would you put a bullet in his head?  And God sometimes does command people to establish justice, I recommend you read the Old Testament, where He commanded the Israelites to slaughter countless pagans.

I am familiar with the Old Testament. Do we still sacrifice bulls and goats to atone for sins? Do we still stone disobedient children? Why do the advocates of violence selectively appeal to the Old Testament in this one regard while adhering to the New Testament in all others?


Selam

Who exactly advocates violence?  This is why people don't take you seriously.


And Pro-choicers aren't pro-abortion either, or so they claim. But the effective result of their "pro-choice" position is that the unborn are slaughtered. It's a bit too convenient to claim not to advocate violence while arguing vehemently for justifications for violence. I tend not to let people off the hook in this regard.


Selam
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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #144 on: March 18, 2012, 11:48:31 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you should stop trying to bully others out of discussions in this way.

Gebre doesn't know what "violence" means and you can't figure out what "bully" means. Let's get one more person who doesn't understand a simple word for the trifecta.


I rarely, if ever, defend Gebre, but.

From what i gathered from readings on many topics here and elsewhere, if done correctly, spanking is an act of love, and not violence. If the lesson is to be learned, then the spanking is to occur, but then love is shown and explaained why it happens.

While it involves violence, it is love, and not violnce, that the act is if done correctly.

But evidently then, in Gebre's opinion, it is in no way an act of love to shoot gangsters who are trying to rape a little girl.  That is only an act of violence, no matter how you go about it.  What we should really do is pray, so that - if God pleases - the Lord can send down a regiment of angels to strike dead the gangsters.  We should not take it into our own hands, as God may wish to teach the little girl a lesson, by allowing her to be raped.

Or, at least, this is what Gebre's logic amounts to, even if it isn't his actual opinion.

Dear brother, please do not make straw man caricatures of my position. It is dishonest, inaccurate, and unproductive to the discussion.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #145 on: March 18, 2012, 11:58:27 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you should stop trying to bully others out of discussions in this way.

Gebre doesn't know what "violence" means and you can't figure out what "bully" means. Let's get one more person who doesn't understand a simple word for the trifecta.


I rarely, if ever, defend Gebre, but.

From what i gathered from readings on many topics here and elsewhere, if done correctly, spanking is an act of love, and not violence. If the lesson is to be learned, then the spanking is to occur, but then love is shown and explaained why it happens.

While it involves violence, it is love, and not violnce, that the act is if done correctly.

But evidently then, in Gebre's opinion, it is in no way an act of love to shoot gangsters who are trying to rape a little girl.  That is only an act of violence, no matter how you go about it.  What we should really do is pray, so that - if God pleases - the Lord can send down a regiment of angels to strike dead the gangsters.  We should not take it into our own hands, as God may wish to teach the little girl a lesson, by allowing her to be raped.

Or, at least, this is what Gebre's logic amounts to, even if it isn't his actual opinion.
I've had these debates with Gebre much longer than you have, so I'm qualified to tell you this: You're grossly misrepresenting his position.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #146 on: March 19, 2012, 02:51:50 AM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you should stop trying to bully others out of discussions in this way.

Gebre doesn't know what "violence" means and you can't figure out what "bully" means. Let's get one more person who doesn't understand a simple word for the trifecta.


I rarely, if ever, defend Gebre, but.

From what i gathered from readings on many topics here and elsewhere, if done correctly, spanking is an act of love, and not violence. If the lesson is to be learned, then the spanking is to occur, but then love is shown and explaained why it happens.

While it involves violence, it is love, and not violnce, that the act is if done correctly.

But evidently then, in Gebre's opinion, it is in no way an act of love to shoot gangsters who are trying to rape a little girl.  That is only an act of violence, no matter how you go about it.  What we should really do is pray, so that - if God pleases - the Lord can send down a regiment of angels to strike dead the gangsters.  We should not take it into our own hands, as God may wish to teach the little girl a lesson, by allowing her to be raped.

Or, at least, this is what Gebre's logic amounts to, even if it isn't his actual opinion.
I've had these debates with Gebre much longer than you have, so I'm qualified to tell you this: You're grossly misrepresenting his position.

I am not misrepresenting his position because I am not attempting to represent his position.  I am representing where the logic of all his statements in this thread leads.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #147 on: March 19, 2012, 03:06:47 AM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you should stop trying to bully others out of discussions in this way.

Gebre doesn't know what "violence" means and you can't figure out what "bully" means. Let's get one more person who doesn't understand a simple word for the trifecta.


I rarely, if ever, defend Gebre, but.

From what i gathered from readings on many topics here and elsewhere, if done correctly, spanking is an act of love, and not violence. If the lesson is to be learned, then the spanking is to occur, but then love is shown and explaained why it happens.

While it involves violence, it is love, and not violnce, that the act is if done correctly.

But evidently then, in Gebre's opinion, it is in no way an act of love to shoot gangsters who are trying to rape a little girl.  That is only an act of violence, no matter how you go about it.  What we should really do is pray, so that - if God pleases - the Lord can send down a regiment of angels to strike dead the gangsters.  We should not take it into our own hands, as God may wish to teach the little girl a lesson, by allowing her to be raped.

Or, at least, this is what Gebre's logic amounts to, even if it isn't his actual opinion.
I've had these debates with Gebre much longer than you have, so I'm qualified to tell you this: You're grossly misrepresenting his position.

I am not misrepresenting his position because I am not attempting to represent his position.  I am representing where the logic of all his statements in this thread leads.
But then it's your logic to carry his logic as far as you carry it, for he refuses to take his logic as absurdly far as you do.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 03:07:44 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #148 on: March 19, 2012, 09:00:26 AM »
A selection from a book that you may find interesting:
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/48/48-3/JETS_48-3_589-608.pdf
Thanks for posting that, Andrieu.  As my previous jus in bello comment indicated, I think Just War Theory should play a large role in this discussion (although maybe that's a separate thread entirely).

Just War is a position I think that is worth talking about. When viewed correctly, it's actually closer to pacifism than some would like to admit.

I'm going to need this.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #149 on: March 19, 2012, 09:19:15 AM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.


Selam

This is perfect. I 100% agree with all of this.

Some of you grossly miss his points above just so it can fit to your own political biases.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline Sauron

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #150 on: March 19, 2012, 10:14:52 AM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you should stop trying to bully others out of discussions in this way.

Gebre doesn't know what "violence" means and you can't figure out what "bully" means. Let's get one more person who doesn't understand a simple word for the trifecta.


I rarely, if ever, defend Gebre, but.

From what i gathered from readings on many topics here and elsewhere, if done correctly, spanking is an act of love, and not violence. If the lesson is to be learned, then the spanking is to occur, but then love is shown and explaained why it happens.

While it involves violence, it is love, and not violnce, that the act is if done correctly.

Who says that violence cannot be loving? Whether or not an act is violent has absolutely nothing to do with the emotional state of the actor.


Offline Aindriú

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #151 on: March 19, 2012, 11:37:06 AM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.


Selam

This is perfect. I 100% agree with all of this.

Some of you grossly miss his points above just so it can fit to your own political biases.

Don't project.

I'm going to need this.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #152 on: March 19, 2012, 12:12:36 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.


Selam

This is perfect. I 100% agree with all of this.

Some of you grossly miss his points above just so it can fit to your own political biases.

You both need to stop paying your taxes and never call the police. It is just out-sourced violence.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #153 on: March 19, 2012, 01:30:43 PM »
i've heard some say that pacifism is dependant upon the freedoms that we already enjoy, which were bought with a price.

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #154 on: March 19, 2012, 01:38:30 PM »
i've heard some say that pacifism is dependant upon the freedoms that we already enjoy, which were bought with a price.

Even more so, pacifism is a fiction. If one relies upon the law, guess what? At the end of the day, the state will use violence and enforce to enforce the law. That is why it is called "enFORCE".

The only true pacifism would be complete submission to any aggressor. If a woman is raped, she must lie there. If a child is snatched away, let the abductor escape unfettered. If a bank is robbed, let the robbers walk right out.

I have never heard of a "pacifist" advocating any such thing, of course.


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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #155 on: March 19, 2012, 02:04:48 PM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.

Selam

Of course spanking your children is an act of violence. If you can't understand that, you should not participate in the discussion.


Perhaps you should stop trying to bully others out of discussions in this way.

Gebre doesn't know what "violence" means and you can't figure out what "bully" means. Let's get one more person who doesn't understand a simple word for the trifecta.


I rarely, if ever, defend Gebre, but.

From what i gathered from readings on many topics here and elsewhere, if done correctly, spanking is an act of love, and not violence. If the lesson is to be learned, then the spanking is to occur, but then love is shown and explaained why it happens.

While it involves violence, it is love, and not violnce, that the act is if done correctly.

But evidently then, in Gebre's opinion, it is in no way an act of love to shoot gangsters who are trying to rape a little girl.  That is only an act of violence, no matter how you go about it.  What we should really do is pray, so that - if God pleases - the Lord can send down a regiment of angels to strike dead the gangsters.  We should not take it into our own hands, as God may wish to teach the little girl a lesson, by allowing her to be raped.

Or, at least, this is what Gebre's logic amounts to, even if it isn't his actual opinion.

I would be interested to know how a pacifist would respond to this situation?
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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #156 on: March 21, 2012, 01:56:57 AM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.


Selam

This is perfect. I 100% agree with all of this.

Some of you grossly miss his points above just so it can fit to your own political biases.

You both need to stop paying your taxes and never call the police. It is just out-sourced violence.

See if you actually read what Gebre wrote I wouldn't have to say people miss his points.
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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #157 on: March 21, 2012, 02:08:51 AM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.


Selam

This is perfect. I 100% agree with all of this.

Some of you grossly miss his points above just so it can fit to your own political biases.

You both need to stop paying your taxes and never call the police. It is just out-sourced violence.

See if you actually read what Gebre wrote I wouldn't have to say people miss his points.

I think you missed the part where he says people shouldn't acquire guns and weapons, as they are designed to kill.  Police most certainly do this; they also train to shoot people with those guns, when the need arises.

I would still like to see what Gebre recommends when a gang of several men is trying to rape a little girl; does he or does he not think shooting them is acceptable.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #158 on: March 21, 2012, 07:15:55 PM »
i've heard some say that pacifism is dependant upon the freedoms that we already enjoy, which were bought with a price.

Even more so, pacifism is a fiction. If one relies upon the law, guess what? At the end of the day, the state will use violence and enforce to enforce the law. That is why it is called "enFORCE".

The only true pacifism would be complete submission to any aggressor. If a woman is raped, she must lie there. If a child is snatched away, let the abductor escape unfettered. If a bank is robbed, let the robbers walk right out.

I have never heard of a "pacifist" advocating any such thing, of course.



Yes, this seems to me to be the inescapable result of pacifist logic.

This logic sometimes even leads me to question whether a Christian can be a lawyer -- but it seems everyone relies on the sword which the state wields.
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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #159 on: March 21, 2012, 07:28:28 PM »
i've heard some say that pacifism is dependant upon the freedoms that we already enjoy, which were bought with a price.

Even more so, pacifism is a fiction. If one relies upon the law, guess what? At the end of the day, the state will use violence and enforce to enforce the law. That is why it is called "enFORCE".

The only true pacifism would be complete submission to any aggressor. If a woman is raped, she must lie there. If a child is snatched away, let the abductor escape unfettered. If a bank is robbed, let the robbers walk right out.

I have never heard of a "pacifist" advocating any such thing, of course.



Yes, this seems to me to be the inescapable result of pacifist logic.

This logic sometimes even leads me to question whether a Christian can be a lawyer -- but it seems everyone relies on the sword which the state wields.

I can assure the answer is no. Unless you are helping the poor and marginalized while not on the State's dime. And if you make sure to every jury you come across in the US that jury nullification is permitted, no matter how many times some ************* judge tosses you in the klink for it.

Offline Sauron

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #160 on: March 22, 2012, 12:08:01 AM »
i've heard some say that pacifism is dependant upon the freedoms that we already enjoy, which were bought with a price.

Even more so, pacifism is a fiction. If one relies upon the law, guess what? At the end of the day, the state will use violence and enforce to enforce the law. That is why it is called "enFORCE".

The only true pacifism would be complete submission to any aggressor. If a woman is raped, she must lie there. If a child is snatched away, let the abductor escape unfettered. If a bank is robbed, let the robbers walk right out.

I have never heard of a "pacifist" advocating any such thing, of course.



Yes, this seems to me to be the inescapable result of pacifist logic.

This logic sometimes even leads me to question whether a Christian can be a lawyer -- but it seems everyone relies on the sword which the state wields.

Correct. If you rely on the law, that is not non-violent because the state will use force to enforce the law. That is why it is called enFORCE.


Offline Sauron

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #161 on: March 22, 2012, 12:10:22 AM »
I can assure the answer is no. Unless you are helping the poor and marginalized while not on the State's dime. And if you make sure to every jury you come across in the US that jury nullification is permitted, no matter how many times some ************* judge tosses you in the klink for it.

Yeah, that still doesn't work. Even if your clients are the poor and meek, if you win in court for them, the state will still use force to enFORCE their victory.

I guess all the pacifists just want us to live by ourselves in a teepee and eat berries to avoid violence. (and remember, spanking a child is force, not violence!)


Offline Sauron

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #162 on: March 22, 2012, 12:11:38 AM »
I actully pretty much agree with you here. The term "pacifism" has many negative connotations, and the philosophy itself is fraught with varying degrees. The pacifism of Tolstoy, for example, advocates the type of "Christian anarchy" that you mention above. Personally I reject the concept of "Christian anarachy" as a very unorthodox idea. I also believe in certain forms of physical force. I spank my children occasionally, which is a discipline of force but not of violence. I also believe that there may be times in life where one instinctively reacts to defend oneself or one's loved ones. However, this is quite different from acquiring guns and weapons which are designed to kill. As Christians we must prepare not to kill, and also be prepared to engage in proactive nonviolent efforts to redress injustices and quell evils. The rest is in God's hands.


Selam

This is perfect. I 100% agree with all of this.

Some of you grossly miss his points above just so it can fit to your own political biases.

You both need to stop paying your taxes and never call the police. It is just out-sourced violence.

See if you actually read what Gebre wrote I wouldn't have to say people miss his points.

If Gebre would not make up distinctions that do not exist, you wouldn't have to post, either.

Care to explain the difference between force and violence?


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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #163 on: March 22, 2012, 12:16:51 AM »
I can assure the answer is no. Unless you are helping the poor and marginalized while not on the State's dime. And if you make sure to every jury you come across in the US that jury nullification is permitted, no matter how many times some ************* judge tosses you in the klink for it.

Yeah, that still doesn't work. Even if your clients are the poor and meek, if you win in court for them, the state will still use force to enFORCE their victory.

I guess all the pacifists just want us to live by ourselves in a teepee and eat berries to avoid violence. (and remember, spanking a child is force, not violence!)



I wasn't arguing for a pacifist benchmark, but a Christian one.

Even then, surely I jest.

We know all lawyers are going to hell.

Offline Sauron

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #164 on: March 22, 2012, 12:22:50 AM »
I can assure the answer is no. Unless you are helping the poor and marginalized while not on the State's dime. And if you make sure to every jury you come across in the US that jury nullification is permitted, no matter how many times some ************* judge tosses you in the klink for it.

Yeah, that still doesn't work. Even if your clients are the poor and meek, if you win in court for them, the state will still use force to enFORCE their victory.

I guess all the pacifists just want us to live by ourselves in a teepee and eat berries to avoid violence. (and remember, spanking a child is force, not violence!)



I wasn't arguing for a pacifist benchmark, but a Christian one.

Even then, surely I jest.

We know all lawyers are going to hell.

Yes, I know you were being humorous. However, it seems to me that the most vocal advocates in this thread are arguing that the Christian benchmark is pacifist. (except for spanking children)

I am going to Hades. :-(


Offline vamrat

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #165 on: March 22, 2012, 12:28:54 AM »
I can assure the answer is no. Unless you are helping the poor and marginalized while not on the State's dime. And if you make sure to every jury you come across in the US that jury nullification is permitted, no matter how many times some ************* judge tosses you in the klink for it.

Yeah, that still doesn't work. Even if your clients are the poor and meek, if you win in court for them, the state will still use force to enFORCE their victory.

I guess all the pacifists just want us to live by ourselves in a teepee and eat berries to avoid violence. (and remember, spanking a child is force, not violence!)



I wasn't arguing for a pacifist benchmark, but a Christian one.

Even then, surely I jest.

We know all lawyers are going to hell.

99% of lawyers give the other 1% a bad name.

The difference between a lawyer and a sperm is that the sperm has a one in a million chance of becoming a human.

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Offline Melodist

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #166 on: March 22, 2012, 08:16:10 AM »
So what is the difference between "violence" and "force"?
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline vamrat

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #167 on: March 22, 2012, 09:23:22 AM »
So what is the difference between "violence" and "force"?

I would usually define them differently.  Violence certainly can be force, though force is not always violent.

Violence is pretty much using actions that are destructive to another person's body or property in order to achieve a desired result. 

Force is using coercion to get what you want from someone.  Sometimes violence will be used.  At others the threat of violence is sufficient.  I can also force you to do something by withholding something that you want.

Often laws are enforced by the State's monopoly on violence - they are the only entity that can kill based on their own criteria and then justify it.  They will not always utilize violence, though.  Garnering wages sidesteps violence in that they also control certain parts of the financial system and can just take money from you without needing to physically remove it from your person.  While they do not need to use violence to coerce, it is always understood that failure to comply can be met with violence.

Much of what I said comes off as entirely negative.  There are forms of positive force and positive violence.  I believe that the three basic rights are life, liberty, and property.  If the State uses violence to force one person to respect the rights of another than this is positive - it is literally giving another person a right. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #168 on: March 22, 2012, 11:38:39 AM »
This thread is veering off topic. I call for a recess until next Monday so that y'all may decide to continue to post off topic (and thus get disciplined) or to continue in other threads (I will even split the topic if y'all PM me and suggest a title/s for the new thread.). Second Chance

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #169 on: March 26, 2012, 08:44:15 AM »
The thread is now unlocked.

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #170 on: March 26, 2012, 04:59:13 PM »
I can assure the answer is no. Unless you are helping the poor and marginalized while not on the State's dime. And if you make sure to every jury you come across in the US that jury nullification is permitted, no matter how many times some ************* judge tosses you in the klink for it.

Yeah, that still doesn't work. Even if your clients are the poor and meek, if you win in court for them, the state will still use force to enFORCE their victory.

I guess all the pacifists just want us to live by ourselves in a teepee and eat berries to avoid violence. (and remember, spanking a child is force, not violence!)



I wasn't arguing for a pacifist benchmark, but a Christian one.

Even then, surely I jest.

We know all lawyers are going to hell.
What if they repent prior to death, like St. Ambrose of Milan?
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Offline William

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #171 on: April 15, 2012, 10:20:01 PM »
Could an executioner or someone in the armed forces who directly kills (special forces, bomber, etc.) be Orthodox?

Also, are wars of conquest (such as many of the Russian and Byzantine empires' wars) okay?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 10:26:37 PM by William »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #172 on: April 16, 2012, 12:26:31 AM »
Could an executioner or someone in the armed forces who directly kills (special forces, bomber, etc.) be Orthodox?

Also, are wars of conquest (such as many of the Russian and Byzantine empires' wars) okay?

For the first question, absolutely.  God directly ordered the Israelites to commit genocide.  The Church is Israel.  Consequently, at least under certain circumstances, killing is permissible, if not necessarily desirable.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #173 on: April 16, 2012, 12:29:30 AM »
Could an executioner or someone in the armed forces who directly kills (special forces, bomber, etc.) be Orthodox?

Also, are wars of conquest (such as many of the Russian and Byzantine empires' wars) okay?

For the first question, absolutely.  God directly ordered the Israelites to commit genocide.  The Church is Israel.  Consequently, at least under certain circumstances, killing is permissible, if not necessarily desirable.
What you gave appears to be merely your private interpretation of the Scriptures. How, though, is this representative of the Orthodox (i.e., the Church's) view of whether it's possible to kill in war and still be Orthodox?
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #174 on: April 16, 2012, 01:29:46 AM »
Could an executioner or someone in the armed forces who directly kills (special forces, bomber, etc.) be Orthodox?

Also, are wars of conquest (such as many of the Russian and Byzantine empires' wars) okay?

For the first question, absolutely.  God directly ordered the Israelites to commit genocide.  The Church is Israel.  Consequently, at least under certain circumstances, killing is permissible, if not necessarily desirable.
What you gave appears to be merely your private interpretation of the Scriptures. How, though, is this representative of the Orthodox (i.e., the Church's) view of whether it's possible to kill in war and still be Orthodox?

I've already pointed out many saints who were warriors.  I do not see any reason to believe the Church would permit those who lead troops to be Orthodox, while excommunicating the troops.  There are several answers, from me, regarding your question, throughout this thread.

But besides, is there any reason to believe the Orthodox DON'T think God ordered Israel to commit genocide?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #175 on: April 16, 2012, 01:42:08 AM »
Could an executioner or someone in the armed forces who directly kills (special forces, bomber, etc.) be Orthodox?

Also, are wars of conquest (such as many of the Russian and Byzantine empires' wars) okay?

For the first question, absolutely.  God directly ordered the Israelites to commit genocide.  The Church is Israel.  Consequently, at least under certain circumstances, killing is permissible, if not necessarily desirable.
What you gave appears to be merely your private interpretation of the Scriptures. How, though, is this representative of the Orthodox (i.e., the Church's) view of whether it's possible to kill in war and still be Orthodox?

I've already pointed out many saints who were warriors.
You don't need to point them out to me, since I am also aware of them. That, however, is not indicative of how the Church views those who kill in battle.

I do not see any reason to believe the Church would permit those who lead troops to be Orthodox, while excommunicating the troops.
YOU do not see. YOU do not see. Do you not see that you're still spouting your personal interpretations (of Scripture, of Church practice, etc.)? That, however, does not prove that your opinions are representative of the Orthodox Tradition.

There are several answers, from me, regarding your question, throughout this thread.
But none to satisfy what I'm looking for from you. For instance, I notice that you have not quoted one Church Father on this matter, nor have you cited any specific Church-based guidance for pastoral responses to those Orthodox who kill in war. This is what I would like to see from you. (BTW, are you not aware that those who kill in battle, regardless of how noble the cause, are still required to go to confession and do penance before receiving Communion again? That, as the Orthodox Church defines the term, IS excommunication. This is the kind of pastoral response I would like to see you cite.)

But besides, is there any reason to believe the Orthodox DON'T think God ordered Israel to commit genocide?
Whether I see a reason or not is immaterial to what you could post that would convince me that you're presenting an Orthodox answer to William's question and not just your own rationalizations.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 01:51:03 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #176 on: April 16, 2012, 08:29:45 AM »
You're right Peter; I should do the Orthodox thing and chuck my reason at the door.  The mind was given by God for the sole purpose of searching the writings of the Saints.
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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #177 on: April 16, 2012, 08:44:56 AM »
You're right Peter; I should do the Orthodox thing and chuck my reason at the door.  The mind was given by God for the sole purpose of searching the writings of the Saints.
lol

I'm going to need this.

Offline Melodist

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #178 on: April 16, 2012, 08:57:11 AM »
You're right Peter; I should do the Orthodox thing and chuck my reason at the door.  The mind was given by God for the sole purpose of searching the writings of the Saints.

God didn't "order genocide", He gave the Israelites instructions on what was necessary to keep themselves from worshipping foreign gods. Also the military campains of the OT, more specifically relating to the Isarelites wondering in the dessert and capturing the promised land, are given as instruction to us in combatting the passions and struggling to completely overcome sin in our lives so that we may inherit our promised land in the age to come. The book of Joshua ends in Israel not completely clearing the promised land of those that worship idols and it becomes a cause of their idolatry over the course of their history as a nation.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline vamrat

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Re: Orthodox view of the Armed Forces
« Reply #179 on: April 16, 2012, 09:30:17 AM »
You're right Peter; I should do the Orthodox thing and chuck my reason at the door.  The mind was given by God for the sole purpose of searching the writings of the Saints.

 :D

That laugh out of the way, you might take a look at the Lives of the Saints rather than the writings.  I think they would support your position pretty well.  I don't have time and I have a heck of a time implanting images in here, but there are plenty of pictures out there of Orthodox priests blessing troops, if someone had the desire to look them up.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.