Author Topic: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje  (Read 5991 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SouthSerb99

  • Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,800
  • Now Internet Forum Friendly
    • Save Kosovo
Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« on: January 12, 2007, 11:38:38 AM »
Gibson is allegedly going to make a feature-documentary trilogy about Medjugorje and the messages of Theotokos.

http://www.medugorjetribune.com/01/01_07gibson.htm

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here

Offline Bl. Leonid Feodorov

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2007, 11:43:54 AM »
Unfortunate that Mr. Gibson must spend his time & money on covering a pseudo-apparition, especially in light of the speculation some time ago that he planned to do a remake of The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, thereby spreading the message of a true appearance of Our Lady.
"Since the moment I gave myself to the Catholic Church my sole thought has been to bring back my country to that Church, which I believe is the only true Church."

- Bl. Leonid Feodorov

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2007, 11:44:49 AM »
Exactly how many times do his actors and assistant producers have to be struck by lightning before he gets the message?
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Movies/10/24/gibson.passion/
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2007, 11:46:27 AM »
a true appearance of Our Lady.
Matter of opinion. I disagree.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline The young fogey

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,884
  • I'm an alpaca, actually
    • A conservative blog for peace
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2007, 11:49:39 AM »
Hmm. Consider the bias of the source, a pro-Medjugorje site. As the Medjugorje phenomenon has been denied approval from the local Roman Catholic bishop, who calls the shots in these cases; that this phenom, I think on the wane since the war in Bosnia in the 1990s, has a following among charismatics, not traditionalists like Gibson; and that Gibson AFAIK does not film documentaries I find it highly unlikely he would make a film promoting it.
"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

High-church libertarian
Blog

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2007, 11:58:07 AM »
traditionalists like Gibson;
You mean who get drunk and cause international incidents by going on rampages and giving anti-semetic tirades to arresting officers....that kind of traditionalist? :D
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline The young fogey

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,884
  • I'm an alpaca, actually
    • A conservative blog for peace
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2007, 12:18:54 PM »
You mean who get drunk and cause international incidents by going on rampages and giving anti-semetic tirades to arresting officers....that kind of traditionalist? :D

That's outside the scope of the discussion.

It's like saying 'breast-groping drunks in casinos or chancery embezzlers... that kind of Orthodox bishop?' (Like the Gibson incident those are news stories and public record, not gossip.) And need I remind you of Eastern Europe's history of anti-Semitism? Not just unkind drunken remarks but exterminating people with a gusto that sickened the Nazis, as happened in Byelorussia in World War II. Tarring all Orthodox with that would be unfair and offensive of course even if one types a smiley after it.

I'm sure you get the point.
"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

High-church libertarian
Blog

Offline Bl. Leonid Feodorov

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2007, 05:27:52 PM »
Quote
Matter of opinion. I disagree.

Are you contending that Fatima is a false apparition or that Medjugorje is a true?
"Since the moment I gave myself to the Catholic Church my sole thought has been to bring back my country to that Church, which I believe is the only true Church."

- Bl. Leonid Feodorov

Offline crocodilina

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2007, 06:36:50 PM »
 I have been in Medjugorje and I believe that the apparition is true,,, I have not any proofs but the place inspired an inner peace and holiness to my soul.. That is my opinion, of course
though and I am not a Catholic    ;)

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2007, 09:19:19 PM »
Quote
Are you contending that Fatima is a false apparition or that Medjugorje is a true?

Let's try thinking this through -

This is an Orthodox Christian message board and OzGeorge is himself an Orthodox Christian.  So more likely than not, he is saying that he believes neither Medjugorje nor Fatima are true appararitions.  I'm not sure why such an opinion (which I'd wager is the majority opinion here) causes such shock. 

Offline Bl. Leonid Feodorov

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2007, 10:08:34 PM »
Quote
Let's try thinking this through -

This is an Orthodox Christian message board and OzGeorge is himself an Orthodox Christian.  So more likely than not, he is saying that he believes neither Medjugorje nor Fatima are true appararitions.  I'm not sure why such an opinion (which I'd wager is the majority opinion here) causes such shock. 


Forgive me, I did not assume OzGeorge was Orthodox.  I should think this uncertainty understandable given the number of Catholics commenting on this forum, and this thread specifically.

His opinion by no means shocks me.  My question was one seeking clarification, not expressing indignance.
"Since the moment I gave myself to the Catholic Church my sole thought has been to bring back my country to that Church, which I believe is the only true Church."

- Bl. Leonid Feodorov

Offline cothrige

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
  • OC.net
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2007, 11:24:20 PM »


Forgive me, I did not assume OzGeorge was Orthodox.  I should think this uncertainty understandable given the number of Catholics commenting on this forum, and this thread specifically.

His opinion by no means shocks me.  My question was one seeking clarification, not expressing indignance.

I must say that I, as a Catholic, do not have any particular devotion to Fatima, and certainly have doubts about it.  I am more than a bit skeptical about all of these apparitions.  While I don't actually disbelieve Fatima, if that is a term, I don't believe it either.

Patrick

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2007, 11:49:24 PM »
It's like saying 'breast-groping drunks in casinos or chancery embezzlers... that kind of Orthodox bishop?' (Like the Gibson incident those are news stories and public record, not gossip.)
And what's wrong with questioning the credibility of an Orthodox Bishop who displays the morality of a pagan savage?

And need I remind you of Eastern Europe's history of anti-Semitism? Not just unkind drunken remarks but exterminating people with a gusto that sickened the Nazis, as happened in Byelorussia in World War II. Tarring all Orthodox with that would be unfair and offensive of course even if one types a smiley after it.
And the point is?

I'm sure you get the point.
No. Unless your point is that we should believe everything an Orthodox Bishop says no matter how publically scandalous their life is. The fact that the Mysteries he performs are valid until he is deposed is immaterial. He still has no credibility. So, what is your point?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SouthSerb99

  • Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,800
  • Now Internet Forum Friendly
    • Save Kosovo
"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2007, 12:41:40 AM »
Quote
So, what is your point?

My point (to jump into the discussion) is that you have no way of know whether Mel Gibson repented of his actions and confessed them, seeking absolution.  The fact that he made some very public mistakes doesn't mean he isn't in fact a traditional Catholic.  I know that I've made some very large mistakes... I don't believe that makes me somehow less of a Christian, only it would make me a sinner - ο αναμάρτητος υμων πρώτος βαλέτω λίθον.  

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2007, 12:46:20 AM »
The fact that he made some very public mistakes doesn't mean he isn't in fact a traditional Catholic. 
I didn't say he wasn't a traditional Catholic. I just said he was the kind of traditional Catholic who causes international incidents.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2007, 01:02:40 AM »
Quote
I didn't say he wasn't a traditional Catholic. I just said he was the kind of traditional Catholic who causes international incidents.

Which is a cheap shot.  You are usually the one voice of reason on this board urging others not to do that. 

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2007, 01:10:58 AM »
Which is a cheap shot. 
Why? Isn't it a fact that his outburst caused an international incident? And any credibility to his claim that his Passion of Christ and traditional Catholicism are not anti-semetic went out the window that night. In vino veritas.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1703154.htm
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 01:22:39 AM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline lubeltri

  • Latin Catholic layman
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,795
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2007, 01:53:11 AM »
Why? Isn't it a fact that his outburst caused an international incident? And any credibility to his claim that his Passion of Christ and traditional Catholicism are not anti-semetic went out the window that night. In vino veritas.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1703154.htm

I see nothing in that article that shows The Passion of the Christ is anti-semitic or that traditional Catholics are anti-semitic in general.

As for Mr. Gibson himself, he may have anti-semitic feelings deep down, but wouldn't you have these buried prejudices if you grew up with a father like his? It's these prejudices you always have to fight against, and I believe Mel sincerely thinks they are wrong. He was drunk and he was angry, and they came up and out. I believe he was truly ashamed of them.

There but for the grace of God go we. We all have prejudices we need to fight within ourselves. My father has a lot of racist views, and I grew up exposed to them. I had to fight these racial prejudices passed down to me, and I still must actively dismiss them when they pop up in my mind once in a while.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 01:53:46 AM by lubeltri »

Offline cothrige

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
  • OC.net
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2007, 03:32:58 AM »
Why? Isn't it a fact that his outburst caused an international incident? And any credibility to his claim that his Passion of Christ and traditional Catholicism are not anti-semetic went out the window that night. In vino veritas.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1703154.htm

I honestly don't think we can draw the conclusion which seems to be made here.  We know that Mel Gibson was rather seriously labelled by many, and most especially by Jewish groups, as an anti-semite during the production and promotion of the Passion movie.  We also know that recently, in a rather inebriated state, that he spoke in a very negative, and at least borderline paranoid, way about Jews.  The second does not automatically make him an anti-semite, though it does not clear him by any means.  However, we cannot even begin to suggest that it demonstrates his opinions at the time of the movie's production.  I certainly wonder how I might feel about my perceived attackers if I were subjected to the statements I heard the likes of Mr. Foxman make on TV about Mel Gibson.  I doubt I would have much nice to say about the Jews afterwards.  As far as we know Mel Gibson was still angry about his treatment during that period, and loosened up with liquor there is no telling what a person may say in that situation.  Do I think this likely?  I have no idea.  But, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable implying that there was any evidence in this that he is or was anti-semitic, either at that time or certainly previous to it.

Patrick

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2007, 03:54:56 AM »
I see nothing in that article that shows The Passion of the Christ is anti-semitic or that traditional Catholics are anti-semitic in general.
You're not listening. I realise this is an emotional issue for some, but please take note of what I say. I'm talking about Mel's credibility.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 03:55:23 AM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline lubeltri

  • Latin Catholic layman
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,795
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2007, 04:12:44 AM »
And any credibility to his claim that his Passion of Christ and traditional Catholicism are not anti-semetic went out the window that night.

As you wrote here, you were not questioning the credibility of Mel himself but of his claim---in other words, you were questioning his claim. At least, that's what the words say. Did you mean differently, perhaps, that you agree that neither his movie nor traditional Catholics in general are anti-semitic, but that Mel himself is not the most credible person to assert this?

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2007, 05:25:45 AM »
Did you mean differently, perhaps, that you agree that neither his movie nor traditional Catholics in general are anti-semitic, but that Mel himself is not the most credible person to assert this?

You mean, like when I said:
I didn't say he wasn't a traditional Catholic. I just said he was the kind of traditional Catholic who causes international incidents.
and when I said:
traditionalists like Gibson;
You mean who get drunk and cause international incidents by going on rampages and giving anti-semetic tirades to arresting officers....that kind of traditionalist? :D

It's not my fault emotions run away with people and they don't read what's posted. I'm not sure I could have been clearer.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline GiC

  • Resident Atheist
  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,490
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2007, 11:53:08 AM »
The Jew has squandered most the sympathy he gained by attempting to monopolize on suffering from WWII...the charge of anti-semitism is taken as either a joke or an annoying whining my most today, with the exception of an ever shrinking segment of the media elite. I fail to see its relevance to this conversation.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 12:11:40 PM by greekischristian »
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Panagiotis

  • Libertarian/Orthodox/Lush
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 406
  • Advocating Liberty Since 1973
    • The Two-Cent Philosopher
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2007, 03:21:07 PM »
The Jew has squandered most the sympathy he gained by attempting to monopolize on suffering from WWII...the charge of anti-semitism is taken as either a joke or an annoying whining my most today, with the exception of an ever shrinking segment of the media elite. I fail to see its relevance to this conversation.
I don't know if I agree, though I understand the frustration in hearing "oh great, another victim of the Holocaust plea". But I must tell you in past experiences that I did not get hired, was jumped and wounded, all because I have Jewish blood in my veins. The discrimination today is very valid and I have the scars to prove it, even in Los Angeles where most of the Jewish people actually have some investment and cashflow. I on the other hand am one of the poor peoples:)

Blessings,
Panagiotis

"The first condition for the establishment of perpetual peace is the general adoption of the principles of laissez-faire capitalism"
-Ludwig Von Mises

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2007, 05:30:26 PM »
Simply because some have exploited the sufferings of Jews during the Holocaust (in the style described in The Holocaust Industry) doesn't mean that Jews didn't suffer nor does it mean that an irrational hatred of Jews doesn't still exist in the world.  If you think otherwise there was just a confrence in Tehran that would have been for you...

To George's claim of in vino veritas - I'd disagree.  After a certain point of intoxication one starts spouting complete non-sense.  In vino veritas is only really true when someone is just a bit tipsy not for being completely wasted.  To say that the Passion was anti-semetic one must bear the burden of proof - Can any violent hate crimes against Jews be attributed to the film?  On the other hand I know of many people who were inspired to a more Christian life because of the film.  By their fruits you shall know them. 

Offline Serbian Patriot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 200
Re: Gibson’s film about Medjugorje
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2007, 06:06:33 PM »
Which is a cheap shot.  You are usually the one voice of reason on this board urging others not to do that. 
I think the way Mel Gibson was treated was scandalous.  If you cant attack the message attack the man.  The Jewish lobby always uses character assassination as its main weapon.  Remember they were opposed to certain lines in the film that were biblical verses.  In other words they find the Christian faith intolerable and anti-semitic.  Their phony cries of intolerance were a sad joke given that they wanted biblical excerpts amended to appease their own theological viewpoint.  As GIC says their guilt trip tactic is wearing off, and the more it does the more they have to use open intimidation and bullying.  The more they do the more they expose themselves.