Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Copyright  (Read 25435 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GiC

  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,487
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2007, 07:15:11 PM »
Well, these groups are not preventing certain CD's from getting out. If Garage Band X wants to put out a CD, they are perfectly free to do so. These groups are fine with the ordinary flow of information, they aren't even against the "free flow" of information, if free means unfettered (though there may be censored material going into Kmart and Walmart, the uncensored material is always available somewhere). But if free means totally no money paid, then that's where they have a problem. So it seems like you are not lobbying for the "free flow of information" but "the free flow of information that doesn't cost me a penny"?  :)

I think you misunderstand me, for the most part I dont even want any of that crap music, the only music I ever download is so obscure you couldn't find it elsewhere anyway. But it should be free, and by free I mean unfettered by either political or economic means. To charge someone for information that they are unable to afford is no less censorship than prohibiting it by purely political means. Because the censorship takes a different form does not make it any less dangerous or threatening to society. It would seem that you would create a society in which only the econonmic elite have access to information, in such a context the flow of information is certainly not free. This is the great advance of the internet, it provides to all people information regardless of social class, yet you would have us destroy this great advancement inorder that we may again return to the old order in which only the wealthy had access to information...well, no thanks, I am not willing to submit to such an oppressive system, as I quoted before, 'Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute.'

Offline Keble

  • All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,621
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2007, 09:08:07 PM »
It is dishonest to refer to having to pay for the music you play as "censorship".

Offline GiC

  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,487
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2007, 09:09:47 PM »
It is dishonest to refer to having to pay for the music you play as "censorship".

No, it's dishonest to say otherwise. Using economic means to restrict the free flow of information is no less censorship that doing the same thing using political means.

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2007, 09:28:44 AM »
But I don't think it is a good or moral thing to fileshare so that Matthew777 can listen to Jay-Z without having to pay for it. 

I've paid for every Jay-Z album I own. I downloaded the song "Hard Knock Life," but not the album. In fact, I own more CDs than I could possibly count, most of which I purchased used on Amazon, transactions which provided no money to the original artist. At this time, now that I have less disposable income, I'd prefer to download music online. If I grow to be completely passionate about a particular artist or album, I will eventually purchase the CD, especially for the higher sound quality.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 09:30:01 AM by Matthew777 »
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2007, 11:27:35 AM »
Quote
Study: File-Sharing No Threat to Music Sales
By David McGuire washingtonpost.com Staff Writer
Monday, March 29, 2004; 8:06 PM

Internet music piracy has no negative effect on legitimate music sales, according to a study released today by two university researchers that contradicts the music industry's assertion that the illegal downloading of music online is taking a big bite out of its bottom line.

Songs that were heavily downloaded showed no measurable drop in sales, the researchers found after tracking sales of 680 albums over the course of 17 weeks in the second half of 2002. Matching that data with activity on the OpenNap file-sharing network, they concluded that file sharing actually increases CD sales for hot albums that sell more than 600,000 copies. For every 150 downloads of a song from those albums, sales increase by a copy, the researchers found.

"Consumption of music increases dramatically with the introduction of file sharing, but not everybody who likes to listen to music was a music customer before, so it's very important to separate the two," said Felix Oberholzer-Gee, an associate professor at Harvard Business School and one of the authors of the study.

Oberholzer-Gee and his colleague, University of North Carolina's Koleman Strumpf, also said that their "most pessimistic" statistical model showed that illegal file sharing would have accounted for only 2 million fewer compact discs sales in 2002, whereas CD sales declined by 139 million units between 2000 and 2002.

"From a statistical point of view, what this means is that there is no effect between downloading and sales," said Oberholzer-Gee.

...The RIAA has fought illegal music swapping by filing a raft of lawsuits against hundreds of individuals suspected of engaging in music piracy, as well as suits targeting companies like Kazaa and Grokster that make software or run Internet downloading services.

Wayne Rosso, president of the Madrid-based file-sharing company Optisoft, said he hoped the study would spur the RIAA to abandon litigation and look for ways to commercialize file sharing. "There's no question that there is a market there that could easily be commercialized and we have been trying for years to talk sense to these people and make them see that," he said. Rosso formerly ran the Grokster file-sharing service.

Eric Garland, chief executive of Big Champagne, an Atlanta company that tracks file-sharing activity, said the findings match what his company has observed about the effect of file sharing on music sales. Although the practice cannibalizes some sales, it may promote others by serving as a marketing tool, Garland said.

The Harvard-UNC study is not the first to take aim at the assertion that online music piracy is the leading factor hurting music sales. In two studies conducted in 1999 and 2002, Jupiter Research analyst Aram Sinnreich found that persons who downloaded music illegally from the Internet were also active purchasers of music from legitimate sources.

"While some people seemed to buy less after file sharing, more people seemed to buy more," Sinnreich said. "It was more likely to increase somebody's purchasing habits."

The 2002 Jupiter study showed that people who traded files for more than six months were 75 percent more likely than average online music fans to spend more money on music.

Sinnreich, no longer with Jupiter, has appeared in court as an expert witness on behalf of Grokster, a popular music downloading site that was sued by the recording industry for facilitating music piracy. In that case, a judge ruled that Grokster and several other services that distribute peer-to-peer software could not be shut down just because the software was used to violate intellectual property rights.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A34300-2004Mar29?language=printer

Quote
Latin Music Sales Surge
April 21, 2005
Thomas Mennecke
 
Over the course of 2004, several interesting things happened. One, it was perhaps the most active file-trading year to date. Two, the RIAA reported that mainstream music shipments increased 5.3% in 2004. Three, the RIAA is now reporting that Latin music shipments have increased substantially from 2003.

To break things down, first let us take a look at the growth of some of the major files sharing networks. eDonkey2000, the second largest P2P network behind BitTorrent, has almost doubled in size since this time last year. In April of 2004, eDonkey2000 averaged 1,740,659 users. As of April of 2005, it now sustains an average of 3,309,662 users. This represents an increase of approximately 49%.

In addition, the Gnutella network has also grown remarkably. Currently, Gnutella contains just over 1.3 million users, while this time last year had little more than 250,000 - a impressive near 80% growth.

...Today, there are a combined 10+ million individuals trading files online at any given time - approximately 6 times the amount during Napster's reign. According to the music industry's logic, the RIAA's corporate headquarters in Washington should be nothing more than a smoldering heap of rubble at this point, right?

Hardly. In fact, things couldn't be better for the music industry. As reported in March, mainstream music shipments have increased by 5.3% in 2004 (which equates to 2.7% value.) iTunes sales have passed 350 million and are expected to reach 1 billion by years end. Just when you thought things couldn't look any rosier, it gets even better.
http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=756

Ah, the beauty of filesharing.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 11:33:53 AM by Matthew777 »
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2007, 07:51:10 PM »
Quote
At this time, now that I have less disposable income, I'd prefer to download music online.

I'm not sure if you are familar with capitalism, but if you don't have the money for a product/service you must either finance it via debt or not buy it/consume it.  Did you ever consider that alternative - not listening to jay-z because you can't afford to/ don't want to waste the money? 

And to keep this going... GiC do you think it would be ethical to pirate cable?  It is not a physical product and is much closer to real information that M777's Jay-Z songs.   

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2007, 08:13:05 PM »
If I am to pay for MP3s, why have it be a dollar per song? That adds up to costing the same, if not more, than a CD. Legal or not, I'd even sign up on AllOfMP3.com to buy the same music for a cheaper price.
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2007, 08:38:33 PM »
Quote
If I am to pay for MP3s, why have it be a dollar per song? That adds up to costing the same, if not more, than a CD. Legal or not, I'd even sign up on AllOfMP3.com to buy the same music for a cheaper price.

There are services that are far cheaper than itunes (which is insanely priced) that are a monthly fee with unlimited downloads.  My point remains, if you are living on a student's budget don't expect to be able to live the high life (or more to the point, Miller High Life is the best beer that you can afford).  I've actually enjoyed some aspects of being a low budget and having too much tuition to pay - I've learned to make more use of the area libraries for entertainment (DVDs and such), to use the city parks that have some great hiking trails, to spend more time just "doing nothing" with friends than doing something that costs money etc.  The fact that you are on a low budget makes stealing a luxury good (which recorded music is) no less immoral. 

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2007, 08:40:58 PM »
The fact that you are on a low budget makes stealing a luxury good (which recorded music is) no less immoral. 

How is buying MP3s from Russian music sites stealing?

Quote
Is it absolutely legal for me to purchase music at your prices?
All the materials on MusicMp3.Ru are available for distribution through Internet according to license LS-3М-05-84 (ЛС-ЗМ-05-84) of the Russian Multimedia and Internet Society. Under the license terms, MusicMp3.Ru pays license fees for all the materials subject to the Law of the Russian Federation «About Copyright and Related Rights». All the materials are available solely for personal use and must not be used for further distribution, resale or broadcasting.
http://musicmp3.ru/support.html#20
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 08:42:13 PM by Matthew777 »
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline CRCulver

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,167
  • St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi
    • ChristopherCulver.com
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Romanian Orthodox Church
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2007, 09:25:06 PM »
And to keep this going... GiC do you think it would be ethical to pirate cable?  It is not a physical product and is much closer to real information that M777's Jay-Z songs.   

FWIW, pirating cable is also very popular in the Orthodox world.

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2007, 09:56:13 PM »
Quote
FWIW, pirating cable is also very popular in the Orthodox world.

So is communism, nationalism and even for a time facism made some inroads. 

Offline GiC

  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,487
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2007, 11:28:50 PM »
If I am to pay for MP3s, why have it be a dollar per song? That adds up to costing the same, if not more, than a CD. Legal or not, I'd even sign up on AllOfMP3.com to buy the same music for a cheaper price.

Matthew, just download it and shut up...you obviously dont care about the cause, you just want free music...it's available, go get it, and stop trying to argue for a cause you neither know or care anything about. ::)

And to keep this going...

LOL

Quote
GiC do you think it would be ethical to pirate cable?  It is not a physical product and is much closer to real information that M777's Jay-Z songs.  

I would have no ethical problems with pirating cable...or satellite for that matter, I was briefly involved in the satellite piracy scene during the 90's, before the modern encryption was implemented...one one fake card you could give your whole town direct tv...(the worst part of it was that we were sold out by a fellow pirates, who contracted with the the company to create the encryption used today, which can theoretically still be cracked, but the days of one pirate providing free satellite for the entire town are unfortunately gone...until someone comes up with a better piracy method, though most people involved in that scene have moved on to the internet...I hope those who betrayed us died a slow and painful death. >:( )

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2007, 01:37:39 AM »
Somehow your response didn't surprise me, GiC!  Suppose such can be justified by the fact that programming can be paid for by advertisments... does your position change for something like satalite radio where there is no advertising because the costs of producing the programming comes from subscription fees?

I'm interested how far you go with the concept (if I understand  you correctly) that as long as one isn't stealing "ink and paper" so to speak, information ought to be freely exchanged.  Would it be morally justifiable to hack into an author's computer and disperse in digital form files of the author's works? 

Offline Eleos

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 262
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2007, 03:13:12 AM »
Reducing songs to post-modern concepts such as "information" and "mp3" is a denial of the subjection of nature to the human soul.  Songs do not write themselves, they depend on and derive from human energy.  The internet encourages a mode of existance that denies the body as essential to human nature.  However, no song exists as 'bits' independent of the body of origin.
"The Unity of the Church, as Your Holinesses well know it, is the will of God and ought to be an inspiring example to all men. It should always be a help and not a hindrance to the unity of men of different religions."-Emperor Haile Selassie To the Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches 1965

Offline GiC

  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,487
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2007, 08:41:04 AM »
Somehow your response didn't surprise me, GiC!  Suppose such can be justified by the fact that programming can be paid for by advertisments... does your position change for something like satalite radio where there is no advertising because the costs of producing the programming comes from subscription fees?

Haven't really followed up on the satellite radio scene so I dont know where we're at with encryption and cryptanalysis though I wish the best of luck to anyone working on it. I'm personally happy with local radio, but I could see why it might be important to some who live where local radio coverage is minimal to crack the satellite 'radio'; again, it's information, and I advocate it's free flow, I would prefer that the company find a way of supporting itself without restricting access to the information and so long as they fail to do that I will support any attempts to circumvent their system.

Quote
I'm interested how far you go with the concept (if I understand  you correctly) that as long as one isn't stealing "ink and paper" so to speak, information ought to be freely exchanged.  Would it be morally justifiable to hack into an author's computer and disperse in digital form files of the author's works? 

If you have poor enough security to allow that, you might as well just place a welcome mat outside your computer. The ultimate goal is the free flow of information, in all its forms. Even if one were to buy the book, scan it, and then distribute it, I would have no objections as the end result is that you facilitated the free flow of information. Of course, you haven't exactly destroyed the market for the book, there are several books that I have downloaded in an electronic format and also purchased a paper copy; the latter is much better for purposes of searching a book and the former is, at least personally, preferred when actually reading large segments.

Offline GiC

  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,487
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2007, 08:50:58 AM »
Reducing songs to post-modern concepts such as "information" and "mp3" is a denial of the subjection of nature to the human soul.  Songs do not write themselves, they depend on and derive from human energy.  The internet encourages a mode of existance that denies the body as essential to human nature.  However, no song exists as 'bits' independent of the body of origin.

Actually some songs do write themselves, I've heard some wonderful and beautiful music which were little more than the translation of fractals or other mathematical formulae to sound frequencies. But the bottom line is that regardless of source all digitalized information amounts to bits and nothing more; or, more accurately, it's an ordering of magnetic switches on your hard drive...or stored slightly differently if in solid state memory. Your poetic description of information is quite nice and amusing, but welcome to the digital age, what you see infront of you IS reality. Information is bits, bits are information, and they are owned by everyone.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,379
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2007, 09:11:58 AM »
Actually some songs do write themselves, I've heard some wonderful and beautiful music which were little more than the translation of fractals or other mathematical formulae to sound frequencies. But the bottom line is that regardless of source all digitalized information amounts to bits and nothing more; or, more accurately, it's an ordering of magnetic switches on your hard drive...or stored slightly differently if in solid state memory. Your poetic description of information is quite nice and amusing, but welcome to the digital age, what you see infront of you IS reality. Information is bits, bits are information, and they are owned by everyone.
Ah, GiC...such a romantic!
What woman could resist this Silver tongue, this honey dripping? :D

I'm reminded of the prophecy of St. Kosmos Aitolos:
"Θα 'ρθει καιρός που θα διευθύνουν τον κόσμο τα άλαλα και τα μπάλαλα"
"The time will come when the world will be directed by speechless and lifeless things."
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 09:28:10 AM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2007, 11:59:13 AM »
The only good argument I've heard against filesharing was from an artist himself. By making songs disposable, filesharing depreciates their value as art. I understand wholeheartedly why a musician would feel that way. But I don't see how filesharing devalues their art any more so than commercialism.
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,830
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2007, 12:19:51 PM »
Let me try to make this as simple as possible.

I am a musician who has put out material.
I say explicitly that I don't want people downloading my music for free.

You have a choice, Matthew, you can either follow my wishes or violate them. As has been pointed out, filesharing is a red herring, it is an attempt to remove the human element so that the discussion can become about information and freedom and such--intangible, impersonal things. But there is a person behind that music, and I don't see how any Christian anywhere can condone violating that person's will, especially when it comes to something that that person has created. This is not about filesharing, this is about Matthew not respecting the desires and beliefs of other human beings.

Offline CRCulver

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,167
  • St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi
    • ChristopherCulver.com
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Romanian Orthodox Church
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2007, 12:28:48 PM »
You have a choice, Matthew, you can either follow my wishes or violate them. As has been pointed out, filesharing is a red herring, it is an attempt to remove the human element so that the discussion can become about information and freedom and such--intangible, impersonal things. But there is a person behind that music, and I don't see how any Christian anywhere can condone violating that person's will, especially when it comes to something that that person has created. This is not about filesharing, this is about Matthew not respecting the desires and beliefs of other human beings.

Based on the long tradition that stood before a handful of Western European countries went mad, it is absurd and repugnant for a person to claim art as uniquely theirs in the sense that copies cannot be made--all that is acceptable is requiring that one be credited for the work. Why should someone claiming a power over others that he cannot have be respected?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 12:29:50 PM by CRCulver »

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,830
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2007, 12:34:44 PM »
Since slavery and arranged marriages have similarly been the norm almost everywhere, for almost all of recorded history, we should bring those back as well. What right do we have to disagree with so many people from so many places? It is quite arrogant of us to think that we have morally evolved  ::)

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2007, 12:36:21 PM »
I believe that CRCulver is correct in stressing that we shouldn't look toward the contemporary strandards of Western democracies, but how Orthodox Christian countries have traditionally dealt with the unauthorized copying of art. That's probably the only certain way, as Orthodox Christians, that we can reach some sort of consensus. If Justin Martyr were alive today, would he consider filesharing to be the theft of intellectual property?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 12:37:13 PM by Matthew777 »
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline Keble

  • All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,621
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2007, 02:31:31 PM »
Based on the long tradition that stood before a handful of Western European countries went mad, it is absurd and repugnant for a person to claim art as uniquely theirs in the sense that copies cannot be made--all that is acceptable is requiring that one be credited for the work. Why should someone claiming a power over others that he cannot have be respected?

That is of course true of ownership in gerenal, which means that you've now authorized all forms of theft.

We've been around this part of the argument before, and since the arguments I made weren't addressed, I'm not going to waste my time further. But as far as the "long tradition" is concerned, the immoralities of the ancients are there for all to see and avoid. THis is just one of them, perhaps.

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2007, 02:37:19 PM »
But as far as the "long tradition" is concerned, the immoralities of the ancients are there for all to see and avoid. THis is just one of them, perhaps.

I am of the persuasion that the morality of the early Christians should set the standard for our morality today. If one could build a patristic case against filesharing, I'd be more open to the contention that it is theft.
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline Veniamin

  • Fire for Effect!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,372
  • St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2007, 02:46:34 PM »
I am of the persuasion that the morality of the early Christians should set the standard for our morality today.

Therefore, Matthew supports slavery, since the early Christians owned slaves.
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Offline GiC

  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,487
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2007, 03:35:34 PM »
Ah, GiC...such a romantic!
What woman could resist this Silver tongue, this honey dripping? :D

Ah George, what greater elegance, beauty, and romance is there than that which is bestowed upon us by mathematics. To reduce the entire world to mathematical formulae is to magnify it in a way it never before dreamed. Behold the beauty of the bit, 1 and 0...on and off...everything and nother...being and non-being...and in these two concepts may be contained the entirety of the world's information, in essence the entirety of the world. How is that not elegant? How is that not beautiful? How is that not romantic?

(yes, yes, I know that I am a sick and twisted individual...but I like it that way ;))
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 03:36:33 PM by greekischristian »

Offline GiC

  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,487
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2007, 03:50:29 PM »
You have a choice, Matthew, you can either follow my wishes or violate them. As has been pointed out, filesharing is a red herring, it is an attempt to remove the human element so that the discussion can become about information and freedom and such--intangible, impersonal things.

I acknowledge the human element, but I value these 'intangible, impersonal things' above the human individual, above life itself. And thank God (or goodness, if you prefer ;)) that my ancestors also valued these things more than life itself...because of this our forefathers fought their freedom and liberty and for that of their Posterity. Yet you would now deny that basic human freedom with this new form of copyright enforcement that is a clear violation of the freedom of speech and of the press. The laws prohibiting the free distribution of information are barely a decade old (1994, if I'm not mistaken; previously, only distribution for profit was illegal) and are a direct affront against the freedoms we hold dear. I would even go so far as to say that if one is to claim to be an American it is their patriotic duty to resist this tyrannical imposition of economic censorship.

Quote
But there is a person behind that music, and I don't see how any Christian anywhere can condone violating that person's will, especially when it comes to something that that person has created. This is not about filesharing, this is about Matthew not respecting the desires and beliefs of other human beings.

If the artist wants to keep it to himself, then let him do so, but once he publishes it, it becomes public information. At this point an enforcement of his will becomes a violation of the rights of the individual his will is enforced upon.

Offline GiC

  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,487
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2007, 03:51:56 PM »
Therefore, Matthew supports slavery, since the early Christians owned slaves.

If you really, really want I can argue the virtues and acceptability of slavery in an historic context...just ask Keble ;)

Offline cothrige

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
  • OC.net
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2007, 04:36:21 PM »
Let me try to make this as simple as possible.

I am a musician who has put out material.
I say explicitly that I don't want people downloading my music for free.


I think this is a clear and understandable statement, but must all the implications of this automatically be accepted as so?  For instance, if I write a book, and say explicitly that I don't want people borrowing it from libraries for free, will that make libraries immoral?  Or, if am an architect and build a house, and say that I don't want people taking pictures of it for free can I really make it immoral for people walking down a public street to take that picture?  There is a large sculpture, admittedly an ugly one, in a park near here and anyone can see it.  If the artist did not want people taking pictures of it can that stop them from being able to do so or even make it wrong?  Or doesn't he still have the same connection and ownership of this work as do a performer?

I just think this issue is being looked at as freedom of the flow of information, which I don't really think applies, or about copies of songs.  But, there is more to look at here.  If an artist performs his art publically he has, in some way, given that work to the public.  The original recordings are certainly his, but if I can see or hear it publically then I can use whatever means are available to me to capture it for future use.  For instance, who here honestly believes that a VCR used to record Desperate Housewives is immoral copying?  (I will leave aside the possible immorality of even watching that show.  :))  But, did the "artists" or creators approve that copy being made?  I just don't think this has been addressed.

If I go onlilne and download a free copy of a song by a particular artist then I can see how that may very well be morally unacceptable.  But, what about tv broadcasts?  Radio signals recorded?  How far do we and should we go with this before what we are effectively saying is that a creator controls the work, any signal the work is in, and any space the signal travels through.  I can't help but think there are broader implications than merely whether a college kid is stealing songs or whether an artist likes his work being swapped.  Why can't this also be addressed?

Patrick

Offline Panagiotis

  • Libertarian/Orthodox/Lush
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 406
  • Advocating Liberty Since 1973
    • The Two-Cent Philosopher
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2007, 10:16:32 PM »
Property is property, intellectual or not. Taking my intellectual property is the same as taking my land away from me, or stealing my land. Stealing my intellectual property is thievery, and is a punishable crime in this land of America and almost every other nation as well. If you want an "Orthodox" approach, take a look at Jesus Christ who told us to accept the laws of the land as long as they do not interfere with loving and worshipping Him.

Thievery is a sin, plain and simple. So where is your argument now?

Panagiotis

"The first condition for the establishment of perpetual peace is the general adoption of the principles of laissez-faire capitalism"
-Ludwig Von Mises

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2007, 10:58:53 PM »
Thievery is a sin, plain and simple. So where is your argument now?

My argument is that you have no argument. You have yet to demonstrate, on a patristic basis, that filesharing is thievery.
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline CRCulver

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,167
  • St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi
    • ChristopherCulver.com
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Romanian Orthodox Church
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2007, 11:11:29 PM »
Property is property, intellectual or not. Taking my intellectual property is the same as taking my land away from me, or stealing my land. Stealing my intellectual property is thievery, and is a punishable crime in this land of America and almost every other nation as well.

Where was this concept of "intellectual property" for most of the Christian era?


Quote
If you want an "Orthodox" approach, take a look at Jesus Christ who told us to accept the laws of the land as long as they do not interfere with loving and worshipping Him.

What about those of us who live in countries where such a law is technically on the books, but the government either looks the other way or openly aids copying?

Offline Sloga

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 830
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2007, 11:26:16 PM »
Am I the only person who sees the beauty in filesharing?

I'm afraid the beauty is somehow degenerated when you think of all the child porngrophy, malichious software and other horrible things are being shared.

Personally, yes I do partake in filesharing but I believe it to be a sin, it is stealing after all. Whether you steal a car or if you steal a pencil, it is still stealing. I dont see how it is not a sin, but I think many of us commit greater sins than that on a daily basis. That being said, all sins are equal.
Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2007, 11:30:53 PM »
Personally, yes I do partake in filesharing but I believe it to be a sin, it is stealing after all. Whether you steal a car or if you steal a pencil, it is still stealing.

What is the patristic basis that downloading MP3s is stealing and therefore a sin?
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline Sloga

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 830
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2007, 12:12:28 AM »
You cant honestly expect me to answer that do you? Like I said, I download mp3s, but it's stealing in a small way. This excludes mp3s of course that were given to the population by the artist for free to sample.
Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic

Offline dantxny

  • OC.net Mineshaft gap
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 769
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #80 on: January 16, 2007, 12:30:50 AM »
Quote
What is the patristic basis that downloading MP3s is stealing and therefore a sin?
I believe it was right after the Sixth Ecumenical Synod.  I know that during the fifth, they were only switching from cassettes to compact discs.
"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2007, 01:51:36 AM »
I believe it was right after the Sixth Ecumenical Synod.  I know that during the fifth, they were only switching from cassettes to compact discs.

You need not be coy with me. What position did the fathers take on the unauthorized copying of art?
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,379
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2007, 04:48:54 AM »
What position did the fathers take on the unauthorized copying of art?
Well, not our Fathers, but the Fathers of the Roman Catholic Church certainly took a position on it. Allegri's Miserere (composed under Pope Urban VIII) could only be performed in the Sistine Chapel at Matins on Wednesday and Friday of Holy Week. Transcribing or performing the piece outside the Sistine Chapel was punishable by excommunication. It was the fourteen year old Mozart who transcribed the piece one Holy Week and gave it to Dr. Charles Burney who published it in London in 1771. So, the concept of copyright is not entirely without precedent (at least in the Roman Catholic Church).
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline GiC

  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,487
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2007, 09:43:53 AM »
And just as that act by the young Mozart was an honourable defence of freedom against popish tyranny so also is the facilitating of the free flow of information in this day and age an honourable defence against the despotic forces of censorship.

Offline Ebor

  • Vanyar
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,492
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #84 on: January 16, 2007, 11:37:17 AM »
You need not be coy with me. What position did the fathers take on the unauthorized copying of art?

What if they didn't take a position either for or against? Perhaps it didn't occur to them to do so.  The concerns of many centuries ago are necessarily the same as those of this time and place.  What if they had said "It's covered under "Thou shalt not steal" and "Thou Shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbors"? 

You seem to see this as having only 2 "sides" the big greedy corporations and you/the ones who want free music/content.  What about the large middle ground, the groups like Schultz used to be in that he wrote about, the people I know who are small indie artists who have no contract with Sony or such like.  They are there.

If one of them came up to you or wrote to and said "Please do not fileshare my art."  What would you say or do? 

As to filesharing making music at it's purest:  "Pure" music is when you make it yourself, or someone else does and you're there listening right there.

Ebor
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 11:39:04 AM by Ebor »
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.

Offline Ebor

  • Vanyar
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,492
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2007, 11:45:27 AM »
Based on the long tradition that stood before a handful of Western European countries went mad, it is absurd and repugnant for a person to claim art as uniquely theirs in the sense that copies cannot be made--all that is acceptable is requiring that one be credited for the work. Why should someone claiming a power over others that he cannot have be respected?

Would you please provide some material to back up this idea that no one minded having their work copied?  Thank you. 

Also, I still maintain that the scope of copying that is doable now is vastly larger and the technology much more available and more people are able to read/listen then was possible before and some people make their living taking other's works without permission which is stealing.

Ebor
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.

Offline Ebor

  • Vanyar
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,492
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2007, 12:01:33 PM »
If i see some art I like I will take a picture of it.

Do you mean a picture on-line?  Or a photo of something that exists in a museum? 

Many years ago, I was running the art show for a Science Fiction Convention.  Both professional and amateur artists exhibiting their works, some for auction, some not, some were painted for the covers of books, others for a commission or a gift or because the artist imagined something and made it.  One of the rules for art shows has always been "No Photographs in the art show", because of copying someone's unique work. The rules were by the door and could not be missed.  Suddenly there was a flash a couple of rows over.  Someone had taken a picture of another person's hall costume in front of one of the paintings of the Artist Guest of Honor.  They said that they hadn't thought about it, they just wanted the costume shot (which the wearer *had* given permission for them to take).  But the "no pictures" rule was right there.  So, in the most innocent light, they were just thoughtless and wellmeaning and not intending to photograph the picture.  But they had broken the rule and the artists didn't want their work copied.

I weighed the factors, I talked with them to see if I could read that they were telling the truth and in the end (NOT feeling good about it) I broke the film cartridge and exposed the film.   :( 

Copyright is a vast area and has been more complicated in the last 10 years or so (some have said that one to blame is the Disney Corporation).  But the wishes of the individual artist/musician/writer should be respected as those of another human being.

Ebor
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.

Offline Matthew777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,497
  • Seek and ye shall find
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2007, 12:05:44 PM »
What if they didn't take a position either for or against?

Then it should be left an open question until the Church makes a decision on the matter. But from what I know at this time, it would be absurd to confess to a priest that you downloaded an MP3 off the internet.

You seem to see this as having only 2 "sides" the big greedy corporations and you/the ones who want free music/content.

I have rarely, if ever, downloaded music from an artist who wasn't already a millionaire.
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline Keble

  • All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,621
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2007, 12:12:47 PM »
And just as that act by the young Mozart was an honourable defence of freedom against popish tyranny so also is the facilitating of the free flow of information in this day and age an honourable defence against the despotic forces of censorship.

Baloney. The act of the young Mozart was a stunt. The whole affair is clothed in so much romance that it is forgotten that there were already three copies of the piece outside the Vatican by that time; nor, apparently, did Mozart write down the ornaments that were characteristic of the Vatican performance. At least, as far as we can tell; his manuscript is lost, and the printed edition apparently made from it lacks them. (And for extra bonus points, the version that one commonly hears was created in 1930!)


Offline Veniamin

  • Fire for Effect!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,372
  • St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery
Re: Orthodoxy and Copyright
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2007, 12:27:33 PM »
Then it should be left an open question until the Church makes a decision on the matter. But from what I know at this time, it would be absurd to confess to a priest that you downloaded an MP3 off the internet.

No, in that case, it should be treated consistently with what the Church has decided until it makes a decision on this specific issue.

Quote
I have rarely, if ever, downloaded music from an artist who wasn't already a millionaire.

In other words, stealing's okay if you're robbing a rich person.
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great