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Author Topic: Announcement by the Sacred Community of the Holy Mountain Athos  (Read 29215 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: February 11, 2009, 02:40:37 AM »


Speaking of misunderstandings: "epidemic" not "epidemia;" "understanding" not "understadning."



Keep up the godo work.

BTW, Shearlock, epidemia is a Greek word.
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« Reply #136 on: February 11, 2009, 02:44:42 AM »

...
You're going to have to prove that "the letter of Monasteries weights to an official document in Orthodoxy" - it is an assertion I've never seen before, and have never seen supported before.
...


Sure, sure. I'll have to. Immediately after I prove that the water is wet.

Perhaps you should request the money back from your school?
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« Reply #137 on: February 11, 2009, 02:46:05 AM »

To be fair to His Divine All-Holiness

 Shocked
I guess there's a first time for everything! Cheesy

 I have used that correct appellation for the Ecumenical Patriarch several times in the past.

It was actually you who took me to task over it, saying that the "Divine" is ommited in English because of possible misunderstanding.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #138 on: February 11, 2009, 02:46:13 AM »


Speaking of misunderstandings: "epidemic" not "epidemia;" "understanding" not "understadning."



Keep up the godo work.

BTW, Shearlock, epidemia is a Greek word.

It's "good" not "godo" and it's "Sherlock" not "Shearlock"
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« Reply #139 on: February 11, 2009, 02:47:28 AM »

To be fair to His Divine All-Holiness

 Shocked
I guess there's a first time for everything! Cheesy

 I have used that correct appellation for the Ecumenical Patriarch several times in the past.

It was actually you who took me to task over it, saying that the "Divine" is ommited in English because of possible misunderstanding.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #140 on: February 11, 2009, 02:47:35 AM »

To be fair to His Divine All-Holiness

 Shocked
I guess there's a first time for everything! Cheesy

 I have used that correct appellation for the Ecumenical Patriarch several times in the past.

It was actually you who took me to task over it, saying that the "Divine" is ommited in English because of possible misunderstanding.

 Roll Eyes

You misunderstood me. What I'm talking about is my surprise at your decision to be fair to him. Smiley
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« Reply #141 on: February 11, 2009, 02:50:42 AM »

Alright everyone, let us keep on topic and keep it civil here.

Or else, I have to break out the iron fist.





-- Nebelpfade
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« Reply #142 on: February 11, 2009, 02:52:53 AM »

To be fair to His Divine All-Holiness

 Shocked
I guess there's a first time for everything! Cheesy

 I have used that correct appellation for the Ecumenical Patriarch several times in the past.

It was actually you who took me to task over it, saying that the "Divine" is ommited in English because of possible misunderstanding.

 Roll Eyes

You misunderstood me. What I'm talking about is my surprise at your decision to be fair to him. Smiley

How little you know of me!  Not knowing enough causes people to make superficial judgements of their brethren.

Visit Orthodox-tradition and see the numerous times I have defended His Divine Al-Holiness against the misinterpretations of his actions propounded by Greek Old Calendarists.etc.
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« Reply #143 on: February 11, 2009, 02:57:03 AM »

Alright everyone, let us keep on topic and keep it civil here.

Or else, I have to break out the iron fist.





-- Nebelpfade


If I am allowed to suggest, a tangent thread keeping the evidence of my misspelling would do fine, since all interested will be able to keep the record on the progress in unveiling the secret if English is my second, third, or whatever language.
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« Reply #144 on: February 11, 2009, 02:59:50 AM »

Alright everyone, let us keep on topic and keep it civil here.

Or else, I have to break out the iron fist.





-- Nebelpfade


If I am allowed to suggest, a tangent thread keeping the evidence of my misspelling would do fine, since all interested will be able to keep the record on the progress in unveiling the secret if English is my second, third, or whatever language.

Or, we can just allow the whole thing to die here, and move on.  Which I would greatly perfer.
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« Reply #145 on: February 11, 2009, 03:06:57 AM »


 (dressed in his omorphion as the Athonites correctly pointed out):

and New Zealand, by taking under its omorphion

The Patriarch has under his Omorphion all the Stavropegial Institutions


Hey George, it's "omophorion" - ὀμοφόριον-  not "omorphion"   Smiley

OOps, just seen the subsquent messages.  But it is probably a good thing for George, being a Greek, to know the spelling of omophorion.  That's not the same as somebody making a typo and writing "godo" for "good."

I am always grateful if people correct my mispellings myself.

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« Reply #146 on: February 11, 2009, 03:48:16 AM »

b) An Orthodox priest should not wear liturgical vestments at such services.
The rasson and pectoral cross (if so entitled), or academic dress are appropriate.

Father, if others haven't reminded you by now, the Ecumenical Patriarch is not part of SCOBA; Hence, His All Holiness is not subject to the restriction you cited.

His Exarch, Archbishop Demetrios, can wear the rasson and the pectoral cross at Interfaith services.
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« Reply #147 on: February 11, 2009, 03:53:58 AM »


Father, if others haven't reminded you by now, the Ecumenical Patriarch is not part of SCOBA; Hence, His All Holiness is not subject to the restriction you cited.

Goodness gracious!  Was I so cretineous as to say that His Divine All-Holiness is a part of SCOBA ?!    I must be having an early onset of senility.

But, context, context, context.

Here is the context of my reference to the SCOBA Guidelines on ecumenical vesture - please see message 119 in this thread

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« Reply #148 on: February 11, 2009, 04:01:30 AM »


Father, if others haven't reminded you by now, the Ecumenical Patriarch is not part of SCOBA; Hence, His All Holiness is not subject to the restriction you cited.

His Exarch, Archbishop Demetrios, can wear the rasson and the pectoral cross at Interfaith services.

He can wear a bit more than that.  He can wear his mandias - which is the colourful outer garment you see the Patriarch wearing in the photo from Saint Peter's.

Although it looks so colourful that people may mistake it for a liturgical vestment, it is simply the outer garment of all fully professed monks (the difference being that theirs is plain black and without the "Tables").  It can be worn on the street and it is worn in church whenever a hieromonk or bishop is NOT celebrating.
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« Reply #149 on: February 11, 2009, 04:13:40 AM »

He can wear a bit more than that.  He can wear his mandias - which is the colourful outer garment you see the Patriarch wearing in the photo from Saint Peter's.

Father, I've never seen any GOA Archbishop (and I only know of 3 in my short tenure on Earth) wear a colorful outer garment in a non-liturgical capacity.  All I've seen is black anywhere.

Although it looks so colourful that people may mistake it for a liturgical vestment, it is simply the outer garment of all fully professed monks (the difference being that theirs is plain black and without the "Tables").  It can be worn on the street and it is worn in church whenever a hieromonk or bishop is NOT celebrating.

Thank you for the info; However, I do not recall any GOA Bishop or Metropolitan wearing anything colorful in a non-Liturgical capacity.

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« Reply #150 on: February 11, 2009, 04:32:35 AM »

He can wear a bit more than that.  He can wear his mandias - which is the colourful outer garment you see the Patriarch wearing in the photo from Saint Peter's.

Father, I've never seen any GOA Archbishop (and I only know of 3 in my short tenure on Earth) wear a colorful outer garment in a non-liturgical capacity.  All I've seen is black anywhere.

Although it looks so colourful that people may mistake it for a liturgical vestment, it is simply the outer garment of all fully professed monks (the difference being that theirs is plain black and without the "Tables").  It can be worn on the street and it is worn in church whenever a hieromonk or bishop is NOT celebrating.

Thank you for the info; However, I do not recall any GOA Bishop or Metropolitan wearing anything colorful in a non-Liturgical capacity.



Must be a difference between the Churches.  But are you sure you have not seen a greek bishop in his mandias?  What about when he walks from his residence and enters the church building?  Or when he is in the church but not celebrating?

As we see in the photo, the Ec. Patriarch wears his mandias.
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« Reply #151 on: February 11, 2009, 04:41:38 AM »

Must be a difference between the Churches.  But are you sure you have not seen a greek bishop in his mandias?  What about when he walks from his residence and enters the church building?  Or when he is in the church but not celebrating?

As we see in the photo, the Ec. Patriarch wears his mandias.

Father, I have never been to a Greek Bishop's residence.  I have seen them exit Cadillacs.   Grin

I have never seen any Bishop in his mandias.  Either the Hierarch wears black or the Hierarch is dressed in Liturgical Garb - no middle ground.

In 2004, when I attended the Patriarchal Liturgy in NJ, all Hierarchs wore Liturgical Garb.  At the testimonial dinner (where I was thrown out by Security for not having a ticket, different story), all Hierarchs wore Black, although I do remember one or two Hierarchs wearing colorful mandias but they weren't from GOA.
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« Reply #152 on: February 11, 2009, 04:48:59 AM »

Bibs and bobs of information about the mandias

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandyas
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« Reply #153 on: February 11, 2009, 08:27:19 AM »

BTW, Shearlock, epidemia is a Greek word.

Oh, I'm quite aware of the etymology of the word; however, your post is in English, so my correction isn't out of line there, Sherlock.

Sure, sure. I'll have to. Immediately after I prove that the water is wet.

You've not taken elementary chemistry, have you.  Water isn't always wet, especially when it's frozen or in a gaseous state.

Perhaps you should request the money back from your school?

Oh, I'd never get it back... Bunch of Greeks, hoarding their money... (lol)
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« Reply #154 on: February 11, 2009, 08:32:03 AM »

He can wear a bit more than that.  He can wear his mandias - which is the colourful outer garment you see the Patriarch wearing in the photo from Saint Peter's.

Father, I've never seen any GOA Archbishop (and I only know of 3 in my short tenure on Earth) wear a colorful outer garment in a non-liturgical capacity.  All I've seen is black anywhere.

Although it looks so colourful that people may mistake it for a liturgical vestment, it is simply the outer garment of all fully professed monks (the difference being that theirs is plain black and without the "Tables").  It can be worn on the street and it is worn in church whenever a hieromonk or bishop is NOT celebrating.

Thank you for the info; However, I do not recall any GOA Bishop or Metropolitan wearing anything colorful in a non-Liturgical capacity.

Must be a difference between the Churches.  But are you sure you have not seen a greek bishop in his mandias?  What about when he walks from his residence and enters the church building?  Or when he is in the church but not celebrating?

As we see in the photo, the Ec. Patriarch wears his mandias.

Father, some context: many of the hierarchs in the US don't use the mandya/mandia.  The Archbishop does when he goes to the theological school; but I've been with him at a parish and he didn't use it.  It just depends on whether the hierarch is inclined to wear it, especially in a place where they may not be used to seeing it.

When they do use the mandya/mandia here, they are vested with it in the Narthex or in the sanctuary, not outside the Church.
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« Reply #155 on: February 11, 2009, 08:38:41 AM »


You've not taken elementary chemistry, have you.  Water isn't always wet, especially when it's frozen or in a gaseous state.


I see your confusion about the subject matter of chemistry. It teaches the formulae and inter-action between elements.

Formula of water is always H2O, except with the "heavy" water, used in nuclear experiments, where after the process it reaches H30, regardless its aggregate state.

Frozen and gaseuous states are subject matter of what are called physics, while you probably call it "science".

That much I could do for you, since you can't have your money back.
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« Reply #156 on: February 11, 2009, 08:47:34 AM »

Father, some context: many of the hierarchs in the US don't use the mandya/mandia.  The Archbishop does when he goes to the theological school; but I've been with him at a parish and he didn't use it.  It just depends on whether the hierarch is inclined to wear it, especially in a place where they may not be used to seeing it.

I have been told by an Antiochian bishop that they don't use it because its origin lies in monastic vesture and since  their bishops have not been tonsured as monks it would not be appropriate to wear a monastic garment.  Is this the same for Greek bishops in the States?   Have they lived as monks or are they, like the Antiochians, celibate or widowed parish priests who have been advanced to the episcopate?
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« Reply #157 on: February 11, 2009, 09:02:27 AM »

Father, some context: many of the hierarchs in the US don't use the mandya/mandia.  The Archbishop does when he goes to the theological school; but I've been with him at a parish and he didn't use it.  It just depends on whether the hierarch is inclined to wear it, especially in a place where they may not be used to seeing it.

I have been told by an Antiochian bishop that they don't use it because its origin lies in monastic vesture and since  their bishops have not been tonsured as monks it would not be appropriate to wear a monastic garment.  Is this the same for Greek bishops in the States?   Have they lived as monks or are they, like the Antiochians, celibate or widowed parish priests who have been advanced to the episcopate?

Some of both.  A few of our bishops have actually been monks in a monastery (in fact, Metropolitan +ALEXIOS was an Abbot, IIRC); a few others were tonsured but served parishes.  We've had 2 or 3 hierarchs in the last 20 or so years who were widowers.  I personally think they don't wear them because (a) people aren't used to seeing them, (b) there may not be enough people who know how to help vest the bishop in it, and then how to fold it once done (which is a pain and a half), (c) they didn't want to buy one with the Metropolis' money, only to use it infrequently.  I don't know any reason for sure.
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« Reply #158 on: February 11, 2009, 09:05:58 AM »

I see your confusion about the subject matter of chemistry. It teaches the formulae and inter-action between elements.

Formula of water is always H2O, except with the "heavy" water, used in nuclear experiments, where after the process it reaches H30, regardless its aggregate state.

Frozen and gaseuous states are subject matter of what are called physics, while you probably call it "science".

In the last physics class I took, we spent more time discussing chaos theory than state-changes; you'll have to pardon me if I believe that properties of compounds in various states should be covered in chemistry, not defiling the great books and lectures of mighty physics.

That much I could do for you, since you can't have your money back.

Once again, you don't live up to the hype.
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« Reply #159 on: February 11, 2009, 09:07:42 AM »

His Divine All-Holiness

Father, I'm a bit confused... I don't think I've ever seen this written out in Greek or English except here on OC.net; not even when I went to the Patriarchate did I hear anyone use this title.
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« Reply #160 on: February 11, 2009, 09:32:43 AM »

His Divine All-Holiness

Father, I'm a bit confused... I don't think I've ever seen this written out in Greek or English except here on OC.net; not even when I went to the Patriarchate did I hear anyone use this title.

Cleveland, I apologise.

His correct title is "His Most Divine All-Holiness.    I always forget the "Most."  Forgive me.

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« Reply #161 on: February 11, 2009, 09:37:53 AM »

Father, I'm a bit confused... I don't think I've ever seen this written out in Greek or English except here on OC.net; not even when I went to the Patriarchate did I hear anyone use this title.

Cleveland, I apologise.

His correct title is "His Most Divine All-Holiness.    I always forget the "Most."  Forgive me.

Father, I'm not attempting to be argumentative, "snarky," sarcastic, etc.  I'm being quite serious - I've never heard the title before, nor seen it in writing, either here in the US, or at the Patriarchate itself.  I am indeed a bit confused, and I'm asking you, only because you seem to know about it.
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« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2009, 09:55:09 AM »

Father, I'm a bit confused... I don't think I've ever seen this written out in Greek or English except here on OC.net; not even when I went to the Patriarchate did I hear anyone use this title.

Cleveland, I apologise.

His correct title is "His Most Divine All-Holiness.    I always forget the "Most."  Forgive me.

Father, I'm not attempting to be argumentative, "snarky," sarcastic, etc.  I'm being quite serious - I've never heard the title before, nor seen it in writing, either here in the US, or at the Patriarchate itself.  I am indeed a bit confused, and I'm asking you, only because you seem to know about it.

I'm wondering if he heard an accolade in church slavonice, because there are some that are regularly used for metropolitans and patriarchs that translate to "most divine"....just a thought. 
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« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2009, 10:19:21 AM »

Cleveland, I apologise.

His correct title is "His Most Divine All-Holiness.    I always forget the "Most."  Forgive me.

Father, I'm not attempting to be argumentative, "snarky," sarcastic, etc.  I'm being quite serious - I've never heard the title before, nor seen it in writing, either here in the US, or at the Patriarchate itself.  I am indeed a bit confused, and I'm asking you, only because you seem to know about it.

No, I realise that you are not.

Maybe go to the site of the Ecumenical Patriarchate on the Net?  Or have a look at the way he is addressed in letters written in Greek.

My Greek is horrendous....  but I think/guess that it is something like 

"Αὐτοῦ Θειοτάτη Παναγιότης"

Phew, took me several minutes to type that on my keyboard - it is fluent in English and Cyrillic..but it has trouble with Greek and I probably have the case endings wrong too.  Sorry.

Maybe George could help?  When I used the title before he said it was correct but it is avoided in English.... 
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« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2009, 10:24:02 AM »

[I'm wondering if he heard an accolade in church slavonice, because there are some that are regularly used for metropolitans and patriarchs that translate to "most divine"....just a thought. 


Never heard anything like that in Slavonic, I must admit.

It would probably be something like "Preobozhestvenniy" or "Bozhestvenneyshiy"  but both terms are awful !!!
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« Reply #165 on: February 11, 2009, 10:53:12 AM »

you'll have to pardon me if I believe that properties of compounds in various states should be covered in chemistry, not defiling the great books and lectures of mighty physics.


I pardon your ignorance; but that solves only part of the problem.

What is worse is that you teach your ignorance to others, in the belief that it is actually the truth. Self-confident pose you take during that makes you look laughable.

But the willingness to ask and learn, that you started to feature on this thread recently, reminds me that there is always hope, no matter if I forget that somethimes.
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« Reply #166 on: February 11, 2009, 12:10:02 PM »

[I'm wondering if he heard an accolade in church slavonice, because there are some that are regularly used for metropolitans and patriarchs that translate to "most divine"....just a thought. 


Never heard anything like that in Slavonic, I must admit.

It would probably be something like "Preobozhestvenniy" or "Bozhestvenneyshiy"  but both terms are awful !!!

I have to ask my father, but there is a metropolitan whose deacon goes through literally 12 different accolades to the bishop.  I have heard them for the patriarch too, but it was a while ago.  If I remember or get around to it i'll make sure to write them all down. 

I was thinking more of the term "preosveceni" or "visekopreosveceni". 
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« Reply #167 on: February 11, 2009, 01:35:16 PM »

I pardon your ignorance; but that solves only part of the problem.

Getting lectured by someone who does not even have a mastery of the language is humorous.

What is worse is that you teach your ignorance to others, in the belief that it is actually the truth.

And I mistook you for someone who wanted intelligent conversation.  Instead, you have resorted to an ad hominem.  How unfortunate.

Self-confident pose you take during that makes you look laughable.

It's easy to seem self-confident against such weak arguments and side-steps as you have provided.

But the willingness to ask and learn, that you started to feature on this thread recently, reminds me that there is always hope, no matter if I forget that somethimes.

I'm glad that you have condescended to decree that I have hope; now I may depart in peace.
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« Reply #168 on: February 11, 2009, 01:53:11 PM »

I pardon your ignorance

By the way, since you've pardoned my "ignorance," maybe we can have a discussion on fluid and solid mechanics, since you seem so interested; yes, GreekisChristian would probably think that our discussion of mere Newtonian Physics is a waste of time, but you obviously are so interested in it that you've determined that it also encompasses something so trivial as the "wetness" of water.

I mean, it's not like your assertion that the "wetness" of water in its various forms is Physics is supported by anyone else; heck, your assertion flies in the face of even the most elementary definitions of Chemistry; to wit:

chem⋅is⋅try
   /ˈkɛməstri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kem-uh-stree] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -tries.
1.    the science that deals with the composition and properties of substances and various elementary forms of matter. Compare element (def. 2).
2.    chemical properties, reactions, phenomena, etc.: the chemistry of carbon.
3.    the interaction of one personality with another: The chemistry between him and his boss was all wrong.
4.    sympathetic understanding; rapport: the astonishing chemistry between the actors.
5.    any or all of the elements that make up something: the chemistry of love.
Origin:
1590–1600; chemist + -ry; r. chymistry, chimistry
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Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
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Language Translation for : chemistry
Spanish:    química,    German:    die Chemie,
Japanese:    化学
View 30 other languages »


chem·is·try     (kěm'ĭ-strē)  Pronunciation Key
n.   pl. chem·is·tries

   1. The science of the composition, structure, properties, and reactions of matter, especially of atomic and molecular systems.
   2. The composition, structure, properties, and reactions of a substance.
   3. The elements of a complex entity and their dynamic interrelation: "Now that they had a leader, a restless chemistry possessed the group" (John Updike).
   4. Mutual attraction or sympathy; rapport: The chemistry was good between the partners.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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Chemistry
Chem"is*try\ (k[e^]m"[i^]s*tr[y^]; 277), n. [From Chemist. See Alchemy.]

1. That branch of science which treats of the composition of substances, and of the changes which they undergo in consequence of alterations in the constitution of the molecules, which depend upon variations of the number, kind, or mode of arrangement, of the constituent atoms. These atoms are not assumed to be indivisible, but merely the finest grade of subdivision hitherto attained. Chemistry deals with the changes in the composition and constitution of molecules. See Atom, Molecule.

Note: Historically, chemistry is an outgrowth of alchemy (or alchemistry), with which it was anciently identified.

2. An application of chemical theory and method to the consideration of some particular subject; as, the chemistry of iron; the chemistry of indigo.

3. A treatise on chemistry.

Note: This word and its derivatives were formerly written with y, and sometimes with i, instead of e, in the first syllable, chymistry, chymist, chymical, etc., or chimistry, chimist, chimical, etc.; and the pronunciation was conformed to the orthography.

Inorganic chemistry, that which treats of inorganic or mineral substances.

Organic chemistry, that which treats of the substances which form the structure of organized beings and their products, whether animal or vegetable; -- called also chemistry of the carbon compounds. There is no fundamental difference between organic and inorganic chemistry.

Physiological chemistry, the chemistry of the organs and tissues of the body, and of the various physiological processes incident to life.

Practical chemistry, or Applied chemistry, that which treats of the modes of manufacturing the products of chemistry that are useful in the arts, of their applications to economical purposes, and of the conditions essential to their best use.

Pure chemistry, the consideration of the facts and theories of chemistry in their purely scientific relations, without necessary reference to their practical applications or mere utility.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
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chemistry

noun
1.    the science of matter; the branch of the natural sciences dealing with the composition of substances and their properties and reactions
2.    the chemical composition and properties of a substance or object; "the chemistry of soil"
3.    the way two individuals relate to each other; "their chemistry was wrong from the beginning -- they hated each other"; "a mysterious alchemy brought them together"
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
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chemistry

The study of the composition, properties, and reactions of matter, particularly at the level of atoms and molecules.
The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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chemistry
1605 (see chemical), originally "alchemy;" the meaning "natural physical process" is 1646, and the scientific study not so called until 1788. The figurative sense of "instinctual attraction or affinity" is older, c.1600, from the alchemical sense.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
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Main Entry: chem·is·try
Pronunciation: 'kem-&-strE
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural -tries
1 : a sciencethat deals with the composition, structure, and properties of substances and of the transformations that they undergo
2 a : the composition and chemical properties of a substancechemistry of hemoglobin> b : chemical processes and phenomena (as of an organism) chemistry>
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
Cite This Source

chemistry chem·is·try (kěm'ĭ-strē)
n.
Abbr. chem.

   1. The science of the composition, structure, properties, and reactions of matter, especially of atomic and molecular systems.
   2. The composition, structure, properties, and reactions of a substance.

The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
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chemistry   (kěm'ĭ-strē)  Pronunciation Key

   1. The scientific study of the structure, properties, and reactions of the chemical elements and the compounds they form.
   2. The composition, structure, properties, and reactions of a substance.

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary
Copyright © 2002. Published by Houghton Mifflin. All rights reserved.
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I pardon your ignorance; but that solves only part of the problem.

What is worse is that you teach your ignorance to others, in the belief that it is actually the truth. Self-confident pose you take during that makes you look laughable.

Your words seem ironic, now don't they?
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« Reply #169 on: February 11, 2009, 02:22:46 PM »

Formula of water is always H2O, except with the "heavy" water, used in nuclear experiments, where after the process it reaches H30, regardless its aggregate state.
Are you sure of this?  To my knowledge, heavy water and even tritiated water still have the same molecular formula: H2O, though you'll often see heavy water shown as D2O and tritiated water as T2O.  However, I don't think you'll ever see it as H3O, as you claim.

In essence, the number of atoms in the molecule of water never change--you'll always have two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  What is different is the isotope(s) of the hydrogen atom(s) contained in the water molecule.  ALMOST all hydrogen atoms contain only the one proton with no neutrons, but nature provides us that one rogue hydrogen atom out of so many thousand that also possesses a neutron.  We call this form of hydrogen deuterium, the hydrogen isotope seen in heavy water (D2O) or semi-heavy water (HDO).  Add another neutron to the nucleus of the deuterium atom and you get a radioactive hydrogen isotope known as tritium, which is most often one of the byproducts of nuclear experiments (or nuclear energy production), but can be found in nature in trace amounts.

Again, however, a water molecule will always have the molecular formula of H2O, otherwise it wouldn't be water at all.  This is true regardless of the hydrogen isotopes contained in the water molecule.
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« Reply #170 on: February 11, 2009, 02:25:40 PM »


I mean, it's not like your assertion that the "wetness" of water in its various forms is Physics is supported by anyone else; heck, your assertion flies in the face of even the most elementary definitions of Chemistry; to wit:


Your words seem ironic, now don't they?

Poor kid.

You could have checked the subject matter at least at wikipedia, and not in dictionaries. If they lectured chemistry to you from dictionaries, you might try to base your claim on fraud.

You know, for chemistry, ice and water are the same. They have the same formula = H20. They have the same chemical properties. It's written even in the dictionaries you quoted, but one needs to know to read it.


By the way, since you've pardoned my "ignorance," maybe we can have a discussion on fluid and solid mechanics, since you seem so interested; yes, GreekisChristian would probably think that our discussion of mere Newtonian Physics is a waste of time, but you obviously are so interested in it that you've determined that it also encompasses something so trivial as the "wetness" of water.

Has GiC already became a new "Old Calendarist whose jurisdiction is more conservative even than ROCOR?"

Your pose of self-confidence shows the tendency of crumbling when you are so alone, while the opponent seems growing huge, so you become so welcome for an outside support that you suddenly proclaim authoritative?
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« Reply #171 on: February 11, 2009, 02:40:14 PM »


Poor kid.

You could have checked the subject matter at least at wikipedia, and not in dictionaries. If they lectured chemistry to you from dictionaries, you might try to base your claim on fraud.
Now that you want to talk about irony, you know what's really ironic?  The fact that I got most of the information I used to refute your misunderstanding of heavy water from wikipedia. Grin
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« Reply #172 on: February 11, 2009, 02:48:21 PM »


Poor kid.

You could have checked the subject matter at least at wikipedia, and not in dictionaries. If they lectured chemistry to you from dictionaries, you might try to base your claim on fraud.
Now that you want to talk about irony, you know what's really ironic?  The fact that I got most of the information I used to refute your misunderstanding of heavy water from wikipedia. Grin
BTW, H3O is really hydronium, the result of bombarding water with free protons.  Hydronium is also known to be the most acidic compound soluble in water; a stronger acid would simply turn water into hydronium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydronium
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« Reply #173 on: February 11, 2009, 02:48:23 PM »

Quote
Formula of water is always H2O, except with the "heavy" water, used in nuclear experiments, where after the process it reaches H30, regardless its aggregate state.
Are you sure of this?  To my knowledge, heavy water and even tritiated water still have the same molecular formula: H2O, though you'll often see heavy water shown as D2O and tritiated water as T2O.  However, I don't think you'll ever see it as H3O, as you claim.

In essence, the number of atoms in the molecule of water never change--you'll always have two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  What is different is the isotope(s) of the hydrogen atom(s) contained in the water molecule.  ALMOST all hydrogen atoms contain only the one proton with no neutrons, but nature provides us that one rogue hydrogen atom out of so many thousand that also possesses a neutron.  We call this form of hydrogen deuterium, the hydrogen isotope seen in heavy water (D2O) or semi-heavy water (HDO).  Add another neutron to the nucleus of the deuterium atom and you get a radioactive hydrogen isotope known as tritium, which is most often one of the byproducts of nuclear experiments (or nuclear energy production), but can be found in nature in trace amounts.

Again, however, a water molecule will always have the molecular formula of H2O, otherwise it wouldn't be water at all.  This is true regardless of the hydrogen isotopes contained in the water molecule.

For the record, the complain quoted above is pretty accurate, apart from different symbols to mark "enriched" hydrogen sometimes used in various part of the World. Since Hydrogen is always one-valence (sp?), while Oxygen is two-valence H20 marks water.

Yet, an unstable form of Oxygen known as Ozone is referred O3 and unstable short-living H3(O3)2 are possible with "common" Hydrogen. The same goes for "enriched" Hydrogen.

However, as I said, "broken" "teared" atoms of Hydrogen in nuclear experiments can take various short-living forms, including mentioned H30, but that's not the subject matter for chemistry, since there is actually no molecule of it, than something that is theoretically marked as a temporary product.

Though, I'm puzzled why is that addressed to me, when in fact proves my point that Cleveland has second-thoughts to accept.
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« Reply #174 on: February 11, 2009, 02:49:59 PM »

Hm.

When I go to Google and type "states of matter" in the search box, nearly all of the hits on the first page point to CHEMISTRY pages, university departments, and the like.

And I certainly remember learning more about states of matter in my AP Chemistry class in high school, but, to be fair, we also discussed heavy water and Bose-Einstein in AP Physics.

I think ultimately the study of states of matter straddles both chemistry and physics.
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« Reply #175 on: February 11, 2009, 02:50:31 PM »

Though, I'm puzzled why is that addressed to me, when in fact proves my point that Cleveland has second-thoughts to accept.
To refute your identification of H3O (hydronium) with heavy water (D2O).
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« Reply #176 on: February 11, 2009, 03:01:04 PM »

Quote
Though, I'm puzzled why is that addressed to me, when in fact proves my point that Cleveland has second-thoughts to accept.
To refute your identification of H3O (hydronium) with heavy water (D2O).

I am embarrassed for the stupidity of this guy.
 Unfortunately, I'm going to have to warn you for making an ad hominem attack on another user.  Your warning will stand for 40 days.  If you feel this warning is in error, please PM FrChris or Fr. Anastasios to appeal it.

With this, I will cease my participation in this thread to avoid conflict of interest.

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« Reply #177 on: February 11, 2009, 03:03:38 PM »



What else is on?
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« Reply #178 on: February 11, 2009, 03:19:48 PM »

What does any of this silliness have to do with Mt Athos?
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« Reply #179 on: February 11, 2009, 03:23:45 PM »

What does any of this silliness have to do with Mt Athos?

The connection is the injury of Cleveland's haughtiness.
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