OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 04:56:46 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: How do I fileshare behind a firewall?  (Read 12333 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,424



« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2007, 07:16:28 PM »

I'll ask again.  How is a copyrighted work "information" along the lines of grammar or mathematics?

This is not a binary situation between the Evil Government/RIAA/Corporations and the Freedom-loving Liberators of Art.   There is a large "grey" area that is occupied by such people as Schultz and the many small independent artists and writers and musicians who don't want their creations taken without permission let alone recompense.  They don't want their work frozen for perpetuity, but in the here and now they need to eat or pay the recording studio or get the children shoes.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2007, 07:23:30 PM »

Just because some persons (in the US) have taken it and are using it for other forms of plant material doesn't make it chiefly for the consumption of that.

That is true, which is why my example was limited to hookahs purchased at head shops.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2007, 07:39:53 PM »

I'll ask again.  How is a copyrighted work "information" along the lines of grammar or mathematics?

How is it not information, it is encoded in bits just as computers record grammar of mathematics; yet you can claim rights over one order of bits though not another? Where is the consistency? It just like those who tried to claim copyrights over segments of the human genome, how can you own rights to a dna sequence? Be it the ordering of bits or the ordering of dna, to claim ownership is utterly absurd. They are the same bits, regardless of ordering, bits that everyone has a right to, and to claim that I, and only I, can order my bits in this manner, and no body else can is nonsense. Then take this a step further, no copy is perfect, a few bits will always be changed in the copying process do to a small amount of randomness in computational and data storage devices...thus the copied set of bits is a DIFFERENT ordering than the previous ordering...yet some still claim rights? Even though it is a DIFFERENT ordering than the one they invented? Where is the reason to that? Where does the nonsense stop? I'll tell you, it only stops when people stop claiming exclusive rights to organize 1's and 0's and recognize that we all have the right to do as we wish with our bits.

On the more abstract level of information in general, rather than bits and their ordering in particular, information that enters the public arena automatically becomes informatoin from an academic perspective (which I believe is the distinction you're trying to make), surely modern music and movies could be relevant to a student or researcher of behavioural science, sociology, psychology, or anthropology...should their research and these fields be inhibited and restricted because of those who wish to deny the free flow of information in order that they may profit off of it? And this is to say nothing of the artistic disciplines which are only protected in part.

Quote
This is not a binary situation between the Evil Government/RIAA/Corporations and the Freedom-loving Liberators of Art.

Easy for you to say, you haven't made a religion out of it Wink All Hail The Great Penguin God Tux!!! Grin
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2007, 08:39:43 PM »

...we all have the right to do as we wish with our bits.

I wouldn't go that far. It should definitely be illegal to create and distribute child pornography.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2007, 08:50:28 PM »

I wouldn't go that far. It should definitely be illegal to create and distribute child pornography.

Why stop at child pornography? Why not continue on to pornography in general? How about inflammatory speech? What about revolutionary speech? What about political speech in general? What about speech against the state? What about art that is contrary to the morals of society? What about art that is contrary to the benifit of the state? Where do you draw the line?

As disgusting and disgraceful as I find child pornography, I respectfully disagree with your assertion. Information should be free of any governmental or legal restriction or restraint.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2007, 08:55:24 PM »

Information should be free of any governmental or legal restriction or restraint.

Just like how heroine and AK-47s should be free of any government legal restriction or restraint?
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #96 on: January 11, 2007, 09:00:56 PM »

Just like how heroine and AK-47s should be free of any government legal restriction or restraint?

Well, these are different issues, completely unrelated to the free flow of information, but to answer your question...yes. As for the former, if you want to screw yourself up, that's your business, as for any social ills that may arise, tax it to make up for them, but eliminate victimless crimes. As for the latter, the right to keep and bear arms is an unalienable right...if anything the law should require you to own a weapon capable of military service.

Didn't I mention something about libertarianism in a previous post?
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #97 on: January 11, 2007, 09:38:15 PM »

Those who claim that filesharing is against Orthodox morality because of an innovation in Western legal systems are just as out there as a Singapore resident who would claim chewing gum ungodly:

"You see, chewing gum is detrimental to public order because of the possibility of littering. Therefore any who chew gum must hate their fellow man, and that's against the prohibition to love one's neighbour as oneself."

Copyright was forced on the Orthodox world by nations who came up with the notion in a time of rising secularism, and was foreign to the Church and Orthodox rulers for the vast majority of its existence. Any attempt to argue for its applicability requires resort to non-Orthodox legal thinking. And as for the exhortation above to obey all laws, this is an interesting case where nations have had to enact laws because of pressure from stronger nations, but within said country, these laws are not enforced (unless it were a violation so big it proved embarassing to the country in front of stronger nations, like the case of AllMP3.com). If e.g. Romania has signed copyright laws, but looks the other way as millions of young people fileshare--and ISPs openly facilitate filesharing by creating their own local city sharing hubs without penalty--claims that it is a law that must be followed are even harder to defend.
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #98 on: January 12, 2007, 08:07:09 AM »

Right now, I am listening to The Police: Greatest Hits on my CD player. I did not pay for the music, but downloaded it online. As I listen to De Do Do Do, De Da Da Da, I'm not necessarily thinking of logical arguments in favor of filesharing, but how happy I feel at the time. If no demonstrable harm is done, the feds should let me be.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #99 on: January 12, 2007, 08:18:31 AM »

Quote
... I'm not necessarily thinking of logical arguments in favor of filesharing, but how happy I feel at the time. If no demonstrable harm is done, the feds should let me be.

Now if that doesn't open up a can of worms, I don't know what would!  Grin
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2007, 08:22:28 AM »

Now if that doesn't open up a can of worms, I don't know what would!  Grin
Worms make excellent bait for fishing.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #101 on: January 12, 2007, 08:26:14 AM »

Now if that doesn't open up a can of worms, I don't know what would!  Grin

It isn't much different from the admission that while we cannot logically prove the existence of God, we cannot disprove His existence either. If you could demonstrate that my downloading of David Bowie and Police tracks causes harm, then perhaps you'd have a reasonable case against me. 
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #102 on: January 12, 2007, 08:31:53 AM »

I am saying that, using that rather subjective and vague criterion, quite a bit could be justified. But hey, far be it from me to speak against hedonism! I fully support you in your new found sense of freedom. Grin
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #103 on: January 12, 2007, 08:36:09 AM »

I am saying that, using that rather subjective and vague criterion, quite a bit could be justified. But hey, far be it from me to speak against hedonism! I fully support you in your new found sense of freedom. Grin

I am not a hedonist. As Saint Paul wrote, anything that is not condemned by Scripture is permissible under God. I don't need a logical argument for filesharing any more so than I need one for using Crest tooth paste.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #104 on: January 12, 2007, 08:42:22 AM »

Quote
I am not a hedonist.

Oh. Oh no. Of course not. You just pick and choose.  Grin
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #105 on: January 12, 2007, 08:47:51 AM »

Oh. Oh no. Of course not. You just pick and choose.  Grin

Again, I direct you to St. Paul:

1 Corinthians 6
12 ¶ All things are lawful for me, but all things are not advisable; indeed all things are lawful for me but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #106 on: January 12, 2007, 08:57:25 AM »

Exactly.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #107 on: January 12, 2007, 09:41:21 AM »

You know, the only thing here more irritating than arguing against matthew is trying to argue a position he thinks he kinda supports.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #108 on: January 12, 2007, 09:59:09 AM »

You know, the only thing here more irritating than arguing against matthew is trying to argue a position he thinks he kinda supports.

You took the most extreme position, something I would not have done.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2007, 10:06:02 AM »

Come on Matthew, one look at your myspace page and it's obvious that you cannot tolerate anything approaching a mainstream position. You will embrace everything Catholic, Hebrew (which seems to be your latest theme), esoterically Eastern, or otherwise non-Orthodox, just so long as it isn't mainstream. Why don't you hook up with one of those young women you have as a friend on myspace, like that (NAME REMOVED) girl. She's a little older than you, maybe a little more experienced, and seems pretty outgoing (offensive material removed) just hook up!

Edited to remove offensive material.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 12:33:38 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #110 on: January 12, 2007, 10:16:11 AM »

OK. Stop right there.
I'm locking this thread until I talk to the other mods about it.
In the meantime
1) Do not post things which are demeaning to women.
2) Do not bring women into disrepute by naming them and directing people to their myspace.

For those wishing to continue the discussion on the morality of copyright laws, a new thread has been started in Faith Issues here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10808.0.html
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 11:29:15 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Tags: sin Justifying sin Thou shalt not steal thief theft stealing music copyright 
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.084 seconds with 47 queries.