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Author Topic: How do I fileshare behind a firewall?  (Read 12125 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 09, 2007, 03:53:29 PM »

In my dorm room, the college firewall prevents me from connecting to Limewire. Is there any way to bypass this firewall, or is there a P2P program that would do that for me?

Peace.
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 04:11:57 PM »

Yeah

1) Call your college tech support line
2) Fix the problem
3) Find the nearest beer pong game
4) Hook up with an easy girl
5) "Wrap that rascal"
6) Sleep off your drunken stupor
7) Take a shower
Cool Go to class
9) Do your homework/studying
10) Go to step 3
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 04:18:58 PM »

Stealing is breaking a commandment.
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 04:45:20 PM »

1) Call your college tech support line

I wonder if they'd be sympathetic to someone wanting to download songs off a P2P network.

3) Find the nearest beer pong game

I chose to live in alcohol and drug free housing, for good reason.

4) Hook up with an easy girl
5) "Wrap that rascal"

I have more respect for the fairer sex than that.

Peace.
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 05:06:58 PM »

3) Find the nearest beer pong game
4) Hook up with an easy girl
5) "Wrap that rascal"

"TomS, alway bringing the level of discourse to a new high".  Grin
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 06:28:07 PM »

In my dorm room, the college firewall prevents me from connecting to Limewire. Is there any way to bypass this firewall, or is there a P2P program that would do that for me?

Peace.

The only easy and sure way is to use Tor, but it will slow things down so much it will be like trying to download on dialup. Another possibility, with bit torrent anyway, haven't used limewire, is to change the port you're sharing through, often they'll just block certain ports used for filesharing, try rerouting the traffic through 80 (http), 20 (ftp data), 21 (ftp control), 22 (ssh), 23 (telnet), or 25 (smtp)...There may be other ports that may work as well, depending on the firewall, but those are the ones I generally used, of course this all depends on the exact nature of your firewall. There are several other ways to hack the firewall as well, but you should have a better grasp of that than I, seeing how you're the one behind the firewall and capable of playing with it to find the vulnerabilities (or, at least, hook up with some computer science friends, learn to exploit vulnerabilities together...but use common sense, dont get caught).

Alternatively, you could pay $30 a month to get your own internet connection.

Oh, and working on breaking through a firewall is MUCH more fun if copious amounts of alcohol is involved...Take SmoT's advice.
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 06:30:18 PM »

Stealing is breaking a commandment.

It's not stealing, the original owner still has their original copy, you just have a copy, which is why it's called copying. Copyright violation is not theft...rather it is a great and humanitarian virtue. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2007, 11:27:35 PM »

modify your ACL.

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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2007, 11:29:05 PM »

what kind of firewall we talking about??
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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2007, 06:12:13 AM »

Stealing is breaking a commandment.

Copyright is a recent notion promulgated only about 300 years ago. For the majority of the Christian era, if you told people that copying a work of art was "stealing", they'd think you a madman.
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2007, 06:14:08 AM »

In my dorm room, the college firewall prevents me from connecting to Limewire. Is there any way to bypass this firewall, or is there a P2P program that would do that for me?

Download Soulseek, ideally with the Linux client (Nicotine+). Doesn't require open ports, though if you have them it will work faster. If you want films, the best place is Bittorrent, which also works behind a firewall, though it benefits from open ports.
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2007, 11:52:29 AM »

The only easy and sure way is to use Tor, but it will slow things down so much it will be like trying to download on dialup. Another possibility, with bit torrent anyway, haven't used limewire, is to change the port you're sharing through, often they'll just block certain ports used for filesharing, try rerouting the traffic through 80 (http), 20 (ftp data), 21 (ftp control), 22 (ssh), 23 (telnet), or 25 (smtp

If I were to take those steps, how likely is it that the admin would notice?

Oh, and working on breaking through a firewall is MUCH more fun if copious amounts of alcohol is involved...Take SmoT's advice.

No can do. I will not risk anything that would get me removed from my dorm.

It's not stealing, the original owner still has their original copy, you just have a copy, which is why it's called copying. Copyright violation is not theft...rather it is a great and humanitarian virtue. Roll Eyes

I am of the persuasion that filesharing should be considered under "fair use" rather than theft.

what kind of firewall we talking about??

The college LAN service has a firewall.

Peace.
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2007, 12:10:51 PM »

Quote
Copyright is a recent notion

Thank goodness culture evolves.
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2007, 12:27:55 PM »

Thank goodness culture evolves.

Did Matthew and Luke commit theft in basing their Gospels on that of Mark?

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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2007, 12:29:13 PM »

Copyright is a recent notion promulgated only about 300 years ago. For the majority of the Christian era, if you told people that copying a work of art was "stealing", they'd think you a madman.

I think that there should be a look at the historical context and processes in this.  When everything was done by hand like copying a book, it wasn't done to make thousands of copies for personal gain. Otoh, there were cases of books being chained to shelves so that they couldn't be stolen because someone might very well want to take it to sell to another, and that *is* stealing.   In "copying" a piece of art, the individual had an effect on the talent and ability; it was still a personal work.  Also, artists or scribes were paided for their work in some way or another (patronage for example).  And in general there weren't authors and songwriters and such doing that to make a living as has been done for the last 3 centuries or so.  

So this is not the same kind of situation as it was 1000 years ago. The person who wrote down "Beowulf" in manuscript wasn't doing to for a living.  But Charles Dickens or Edgar Allen Poe or Rudyard Kipling or Mary Wollstonecraft or Mrs. Gaskell or thousands of others have and do today have this as their work to support themselves and their families in  whole or in part.   Same thing with someone who makes a recording or a movie.  They have done work and "a working man is worthy of his hire".  

Just because another person wants something doesn't make it a good reason to take/copy/etc.

Just to show that I am not entirely unbiased in this, I have friends who make part of their living as authors and I myself have made a couple of songs that were popular in some Medievalist recreation groups and when people made recordings of them or printed them in a song book they were kind enough to ask my permission and send me a copy.  A person creates something that other people like and that's good. But consideration of a living author/composer/performer is also good

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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2007, 12:32:55 PM »

Did Matthew and Luke commit theft in basing their Gospels on that of Mark?

Peace.

They did not take the Gospel of Mark, and sell it for personal gain nor claim that Mark was their work.  They were drawing on the material and adding things that they knew.  One wonders of a scene of Mark saying something like "Here guys.  These are what I remember. What can you add?"  or something like that.

A writer drawing on older material is not the same as plagerizing and claiming it for your own.  This is not a simple area.

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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2007, 12:57:58 PM »

I think that there should be a look at the historical context and processes in this.  When everything was done by hand like copying a book, it wasn't done to make thousands of copies for personal gain.

Of course it was. Haven't you read Martial? With the help of slaves, literature was widely copied and distributed in the Roman Empire, and the authors didn't object at all, as long as their name stayed on the title page.
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2007, 01:07:57 PM »

Of course it was. Haven't you read Martial? With the help of slaves, literature was widely copied and distributed in the Roman Empire, and the authors didn't object at all, as long as their name stayed on the title page.

Could you please provide a citation to the relevent passage from Martial?  thank you. 

How is this to be compared, hand written copies to in a time when many people were not literate, to now when people pirate first run movies and dupe them thousands and thousands of times over to sell for personal gain? 

Then there's such things as someone who had slaves to copy probably was well off enough that writing wasn't done to survive. Or was that duplication done with the knowledge of the authors while modern reproduction is not and therefor lacks any permission or agreement?

Copyright has gotten complicated with the extending of the time (thanks due to corporations, I'm told, not individual writers and artists and performers) that a work is covered.   

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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2007, 01:28:13 PM »

Could you please provide a citation to the relevent passage from Martial?  thank you.

I will when I reach Helsinki. I've still got another 14 hours to wait here in Vienna airport. Still, if you have access to the Loeb, you can probably find the verses in question fairly easily, as Martial's oeuvre isn't that big.

Quote
How is this to be compared, hand written copies to in a time when many people were not literate, to now when people pirate first run movies and dupe them thousands and thousands of times over to sell for personal gain?

Copies made in the Roman Empire were sold for personal gain, with no royalties going to the author.

Quote
Then there's such things as someone who had slaves to copy probably was well off enough that writing wasn't done to survive.

Of course, patronage was a factor. The matter at hand is whether it is appropriate for someone to suddenly claim a right to make money off of something, art, that was freely redistributable throughout most of the Christian era.

Quote
Or was that duplication done with the knowledge of the authors while modern reproduction is not and therefor lacks any permission or agreement?

Copying in the Roman Empire was done without the knowledge of the authors. In Martial's case, it was people transcribing his poetry at readings, and then going off to have said transcription mass-produced. The authors simply didn't see the need to grant permission, for it was obvious that they could claim no rights over the work once uttered. The only thing that irked Martial was when someone copied his work with someone else's name on it.

One should also consider that copyright is a purely Western invention, while Orthodox countries still consider it ridiculous. Just look at the attitude towards media in Russia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. And though one might want to attribute this to Communism, it's clear that it is merely a continuation of traditional thinking on the matter, for copying of works went on before 1917 just as now.
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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2007, 02:07:19 PM »

Did Matthew and Luke commit theft in basing their Gospels on that of Mark?

No. They did much worse; they invented the "Rerun" and "Spin-off" Cheesy
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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2007, 05:01:36 PM »

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the authors didn't object at all, as long as their name stayed on the title page

Ah, so you are now admitting that people weren't too happy about theft of intellectual property in ancient times, either. Most excellent. Now if only we could get certain Christians to stop rationalizing such theft. Grin
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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2007, 05:08:06 PM »

Ah, so you are now admitting that people weren't too happy about theft of intellectual property in ancient times, either. Most excellent. Now if only we could get certain Christians to stop rationalizing such theft. Grin

I said no such thing. Living in academia I frequently hear admonitions against plagiarism, but never with terminology like "theft". It's an entirely separate issue.
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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2007, 05:34:40 PM »

Copies made in the Roman Empire were sold for personal gain, with no royalties going to the author.

Well, since the concept of royalties didn't exist then, that I know of, that is not surprising.  Smiley

Quote
Of course, patronage was a factor. The matter at hand is whether it is appropriate for someone to suddenly claim a right to make money off of something, art, that was freely redistributable throughout most of the Christian era.

Well, I can think of several things on that. 1) the idea of people actually *making a living* through art but not as an employee (tomb painters in Ancient Egypt for example) or with a patron (lots of places) is not that old, I don't think.  The rise of entertainment reading came as more people became literate.  It was when education was made law in England so that more people could read AND the industrial revolution that made cheap paper available that there came to be more people who were professional writers, people who all or most of what they did for a living was writing (Dickens, Trollope, etc).  There's also the advent of more leisure time, with some people not having to do as much to have the basics of life but I'll chase Thorstein Veblen back into the woodwork.  Wink

Also, the slaves you mentioned doing the copying still had to be fed and housed and given ink and parchment and taught how to write, so "free" is not quite accurate, I don't think, meaning no disrespect. The seller was making back some investment, may be.

2) the idea of people having "rights" was also a more recent developement from such people as John Locke and others. 

3) A performer in ancient times expected *some* kind of return for entertaining: food, lodging, a coin or gift. They were providing something, intangible though it might be, and given something as payment.  But there were no methods of recording then, each performance was unique.  Now with recordings and net music we can have a private performance of music any time we may wish it and as many times as we want.  By someone buying a record, a tape, a CD or songfile, they are in some way paying the performer and (if they listen to it alot, it's cheap on a cost per playing rate.)

4) Someone has created something that would not exist except by their efforts.  They have done work to make something tangible or intangible.  Again, I will quote "A working man is worthy of his hire."  How is it wrong for someone to say "I'd like recompense for what I have done." ?  How is that different from a skilled artisan who made something and was paid to do it?

Quote
Copying in the Roman Empire was done without the knowledge of the authors. In Martial's case, it was people transcribing his poetry at readings, and then going off to have said transcription mass-produced. The authors simply didn't see the need to grant permission, for it was obvious that they could claim no rights over the work once uttered. The only thing that irked Martial was when someone copied his work with someone else's name on it.

I can understand that.  A song that a friend and I wrote was attributed to another lyricist (I do the tunes).  I wrote and gave the correct information and all was well.  Smiley  I wonder though at "obvious".  If there was no structure to claim intellectual property rights, there would be no way to make any such claim.

Quote
One should also consider that copyright is a purely Western invention, while Orthodox countries still consider it ridiculous. Just look at the attitude towards media in Russia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. And though one might want to attribute this to Communism, it's clear that it is merely a continuation of traditional thinking on the matter, for copying of works went on before 1917 just as now.

Well *why* is it "ridiculous"?  It is a case of "thoughts are free" or "We want this so we can take it and make money off of others?" or some other idea?

There is also a wide field of what sharing/copying is.  It could be one person's "This is great, I need to share it with others who don't know about it."  Or "I want this music, but I don't want to pay for it." or "I want money, so I'll take something that someone else worked and slaved over and make many many copies with technology (which is new too, compared to, say, Martial) and sell them for my own gain."  And I could probably think of others, but I have to go write something else.  Smiley


with respect,

Ebor

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« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2007, 06:41:31 PM »

Ah, so you are now admitting that people weren't too happy about theft of intellectual property in ancient times, either. Most excellent. Now if only we could get certain Christians to stop rationalizing such theft. Grin

As a writer, I'd be more than happy if people made copies of my articles for redistributation, provided that they credit me for my work. I don't see why musicians who believe in their music wouldn't feel the same way. Art is meant to be shared and enjoyed, not profited from. If Jay-Z is already a multimillionaire, I think he could afford to let me download "Hard Knock Life" off Limewire. I burn a copy of every good CD that I check out at the library, and I feel no shame in it.

Peace.
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« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2007, 06:55:49 PM »

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Art is meant to be shared and enjoyed, not profited from. If Jay-Z is already a multimillionaire, I think he could afford to let me download "Hard Knock Life" off Limewire. I burn a copy of every good CD that I check out at the library, and I feel no shame in it.
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« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2007, 07:18:32 PM »

For some reason, quoting that made it even more funny.
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« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2007, 07:29:18 PM »

It's good if you find humor in the truth.
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« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2007, 07:54:04 PM »

I downloaded Ares and it's actually working! YAY! iTunes can eat my shorts!
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« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2007, 08:32:18 PM »

Ebor has said "When everything was done by hand like copying a book, it wasn't done to make thousands of copies for personal gain."  However, this does not translate to the modern issue of filesharing.  In that, no personal gain is made, rather the file is traded for free. 

Ebor also said "They did not take the Gospel of Mark, and sell it for personal gain nor claim that Mark was their work."  This also does not seem a relevant complaint.  As mentioned filesharing does not equate to personal gain for the person distributing the file, and in all instances I am familiar with the works available via P2P are not claimed by others as their work.  That would seem more to do with plagiarism, which is not an issue in filesharing really, or artist sampling, which is done by the "artists" themselves.  If you do a torrent search you will find many copyrighted works copied and available for download, but they are listed as the works by the people who were originally credited.  Britney Spears songs are in fact labelled as Britney Spears songs, and are still unlistenable trash.

Now, as I see it, most music is so lousy I wouldn't bother to download it, or certainly buy it.  I don't even listen to the radio, which is still free in some places.  I own, completely legally and at massive expense I might add, something like 1000 Frank Sinatra songs and that gets me through just fine.  And movies are worse than music.  But, I have to say that this whole filesharing is stealing thing bugs me a bit.  It just goes too far.  How much should be protected in this way?  Right now you cannot even legally copy your own DVDs to watch on other devices in other formats.  That is silly.  That would be like saying that if you buy a pice of art to hang on your wall you have to pay if you take family pictures in front of it for your Christmas cards.

Another aspect of this is to consider what isn't protected.  Who isn't "worthy of their hire?"  If you use pandora.com, one of the best online sites available, you cannot skip but so many songs, or rewind at all, as that is "listen on demand" and requires much more money to the "artists."  However, anyone can go to the library, a publically funded institution, and borrow any book you want and read it, all to avoid buying a copy.  Is Stephen King somehow less deserving of his pay than Britney Spears or Lindsey Lohan?  If we really believe that being able to listen to a song or see a movie is "stealing" then so is borrowing from the library.  In both cases only one copy is purchased and then is made available to all others in an unlimited way.  The only real difference is that one is the written word, and therefore of some actual value, and is made available by the very government that threatens to imprison people for downloading from the internet. 

Patrick
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« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2007, 08:57:56 PM »

May the forum members who created tags such as "sinful," "Justifying sin," "thief," etc. please at least try to substantiate your claim if you have not done so already?

Peace.
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« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2007, 08:59:38 PM »

Even until the mid 90's American copyright law was quite reasonable, copyright violation was only illegal if one made a profit off it. Today it is simply out of control, to the point where it is infringing on the free flow of information, or at least would if enforced: fortunately technology is outpacing law so quickly that the feds are unable to effectively enforce their oppressive legislation.

Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2007, 09:00:40 PM »

May the forum members who created tags such as "sinful," "Justifying sin," "thief," etc. please at least try to substantiate your claim if you have not done so already?

Peace.

Ignore them, they're cowards unwilling to openly defend their opinions, and, accordingly, their opinions are of no value.
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« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2007, 09:08:27 PM »

I haven't added any tags on this thread, but fwiw I wouldn't even try to defend my position (other than in a jocular manner) on a thread like this.
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« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2007, 09:10:02 PM »

Without the "illegal" copying of music, CD burners wouldn't commonly exist.
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« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2007, 09:13:16 PM »

And without hookers, there would be no Cops Vice specials; ergo, it's good to have prostitutes so I can watch those cool police stings on cops.
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« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2007, 09:15:03 PM »

Retail stores shouldn't sell CD burners, considering that they know full well what they will be used for.
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« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2007, 09:19:47 PM »

Retail stores shouldn't sell CD burners, considering that they know full well what they will be used for.

And by that logic, the government shouldn't issue currency, because it knows criminals will use it in transactions.
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« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2007, 09:23:27 PM »

And by that logic, the government shouldn't issue currency, because it knows criminals will use it in transactions.

And by the same logic, the government was right to punish Napster given that it was used to share copyrighted material.
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« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2007, 09:26:27 PM »

I haven't added any tags on this thread, but fwiw I wouldn't even try to defend my position (other than in a jocular manner) on a thread like this.

Well, ultimately these debates won't go anywhere...heck, it's already illegal but many of us, as a matter of principle, will take the risks and spend our money to keep information free, MPAA and RIAA be damned (mind you, I fight them even though I rarely download anything these organizations seek to protect, the music and movies they put out are crap, but if one wants to, they should still be free to access the information).
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« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2007, 09:27:02 PM »

Thrasymachus,

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Retail stores shouldn't sell CD burners, considering that they know full well what they will be used for.

One more thing to blame on Wal-Mart! Cool
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« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2007, 09:40:35 PM »

Well, ultimately these debates won't go anywhere...heck, it's already illegal but many of us, as a matter of principle, will take the risks and spend our money to keep information free, MPAA and RIAA be damned (mind you, I fight them even though I rarely download anything these organizations seek to protect, the music and movies they put out are crap, but if one wants to, they should still be free to access the information).

Absolutely!  I couldn't agree more.

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« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2007, 09:46:33 PM »

There are anonymous P2P programs that prevent the government from interfering with your filesharing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_P2P
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« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2007, 10:00:53 PM »

My college has no official policy against fileshsaring, so it's odd that our firewall would prevent downloading from P2P networks. This seems like an attempt to save bandwidth. But with Ares Galaxy, I've made all things right again! Let's hear some David Bowie!
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« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2007, 10:03:03 PM »

My college has no official policy against fileshsaring, so it's odd that its firewall would prevent downloading from P2P networks. This seems like an attempt to save bandwidth. But with Ares Galaxy, I've made all things right again! Let's hear some David Bowie!

That's the only reason anyone cares, same with porn, it's all about bandwidth. The internet is above moral qualms, but the pragmatic economics of bandwidth has yet to be overcome.
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« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2007, 10:06:37 PM »

As a writer, I'd be more than happy if people made copies of my articles for redistributation, provided that they credit me for my work.

And that is fine for *you*.  However, do you make your living on your writing at this time?  What of a future possibility where you support yourself and maybe a family with your writing.  

Quote
I don't see why musicians who believe in their music wouldn't feel the same way. Art is meant to be shared and enjoyed, not profited from.

And musicians still need to eat and have shelter and get replacement guitar strings or music paper or whatever.  You cannot seem to comprehend nor have empathy with others who think differently then you do. Do you have any knowledge of just how little performers or writers make when they're not "Big names"? I know some and how they live.  They write or make music both for the love of it and to live to make more.

 If the traveling minstrels, or stone carvers or actors didn't get fed and clothed eventually there would be no more minstrels, or songs or art.  

If you enjoy a song or a performance or a book, which another human has created for others to enjoy or learn from or experience, why should they not have some kind of recompense? If they should say "please don't just copy and take what I've made."  will your desires trump their possible needs?  Why so?

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If Jay-Z is already a multimillionaire, I think he could afford to let me download "Hard Knock Life" off Limewire.

And who are *you* to decide what another human could or should do?  How do you know what someone else can afford or what he/she may do with what they gain from their labours?  Will you allow someone to tell you that just because they want something of yours that it's ok to take it?  

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I burn a copy of every good CD that I check out at the library, and I feel no shame in it.

Are they out of print?  unavailable for home use?  Would you pay for a live performance or think it acceptable to sneak in because you like the music but don't want to pay the ticket price?


For the record, I have not added any tags to this thread either.

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« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2007, 10:08:44 PM »

All this, for you to end up going off into the sunset to listen to David Bowie?  Shocked

I mean, I'll give him some respect if only for his connection with SRV, but come on... didn't you find his role in the movie Labyrinth just a little disturbing (especially considering that he was more than three times the age of Connelly)?
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« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2007, 10:09:39 PM »

Well, ultimately these debates won't go anywhere...heck, it's already illegal but many of us, as a matter of principle, will take the risks and spend our money to keep information free, MPAA and RIAA be damned (mind you, I fight them even though I rarely download anything these organizations seek to protect, the music and movies they put out are crap, but if one wants to, they should still be free to access the information).

Well, here's a question:  Is it all "information"?  Why would a book or song that some one has written be the same as, say, the Periodic Table of the Elements or principles of arithmatic or the names of the Kings and Queens of England?  

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« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2007, 10:14:16 PM »

Even until the mid 90's American copyright law was quite reasonable, copyright violation was only illegal if one made a profit off it. Today it is simply out of control, to the point where it is infringing on the free flow of information, or at least would if enforced: fortunately technology is outpacing law so quickly that the feds are unable to effectively enforce their oppressive legislation.

Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.

In this I and some authors I know agree with you.  The extending of copyright beyond a reasonable time past the author's life is a matter of concern with them. As one said, any money the books bring in are for the writer and their family now, if any.  Not for some grandchild's second spouse's new stepchild to make a claim on.

There is also, I think more kinds of profit then just monetary.  Taking another's work and claiming it is your own, even if you do not get any money for it, may give a "profit" in other's admiration or  esteem, feeding the ego, as it were.

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« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2007, 10:20:06 PM »

Ebor has said "When everything was done by hand like copying a book, it wasn't done to make thousands of copies for personal gain."  However, this does not translate to the modern issue of filesharing.  In that, no personal gain is made, rather the file is traded for free. 

Ebor also said "They did not take the Gospel of Mark, and sell it for personal gain nor claim that Mark was their work."  This also does not seem a relevant complaint.  As mentioned filesharing does not equate to personal gain for the person distributing the file, and in all instances I am familiar with the works available via P2P are not claimed by others as their work.  That would seem more to do with plagiarism, which is not an issue in filesharing really, or artist sampling, which is done by the "artists" themselves.  If you do a torrent search you will find many copyrighted works copied and available for download, but they are listed as the works by the people who were originally credited.  Britney Spears songs are in fact labelled as Britney Spears songs, and are still unlistenable trash.

There is the "gain" of not paying 15 clams or more for the CD. 


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« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2007, 10:25:55 PM »

There is also, I think more kinds of profit then just monetary.  Taking another's work and claiming it is your own, even if you do not get any money for it, may give a "profit" in other's admiration or  esteem, feeding the ego, as it were.

But while copyright violations may be illegal, plagiarism is not. Yet, without legislation against it, the Academic community has seemed to overcome the problems of plagiarism, far better than the RIAA or MPAA has be able to address copyright violation.
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« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2007, 10:30:27 PM »

But while copyright violations may be illegal, plagiarism is not. Yet, without legislation against it, the Academic community has seemed to overcome the problems of plagiarism, far better than the RIAA or MPAA has be able to address copyright violation.

http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/lobachev.htm

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In one word he told me secret of success in mathematics: Plagiarize!...."

"Lobachevsky" by Tom Lehrer

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« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2007, 10:40:24 PM »

And that is fine for *you*.  However, do you make your living on your writing at this time?  What of a future possibility where you support yourself and maybe a family with your writing.  

If I were a professional writer, my only desire for compensation would be to cover the necessities of life. Once my article is published, and I've been paid for writing it, I wouldn't mind if others choose to copy and redistribute it, provided that they give me credit.

Music artists should feel lucky about how wide of recognition they can receive from the general public if their music is made available on P2P networks. P2P is a much more honest way than MTV and radio in generating artists' popularity, because it reflects what the people really want, rather than what record executives want you to hear. If the people really like what they hear, many will show their appreciation by actually purchasing your CDs and concert tickets in the future.
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« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2007, 11:07:54 PM »

If I were a professional writer, my only desire for compensation would be to cover the necessities of life. Once my article is published, and I've been paid for writing it, I wouldn't mind if others choose to copy and redistribute it, provided that they give me credit.

Fine. That's for you to say about your own work.

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Music artists should feel lucky about how wide of recognition they can receive from the general public if their music is made available on P2P networks.

Again, you are saying how other people should feel or act.  Why should they?  Why are your views the right ones for the rest of humanity?

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If the people really like what they hear, many will show their appreciation by actually purchasing your CDs and concert tickets in the future.

Will they, indeed?  Are you planning to eventually buy copies of the CDs that you've copied from the ones at the library?

"Why buy the cow, when the milk is free?"

Old saying

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« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2007, 11:41:41 PM »

If it weren't for the entertainment industry's influence over the federal government, filesharing would be a non-issue.
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« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2007, 12:26:37 AM »

If it weren't for the entertainment industry's influence over the federal government, filesharing would be a non-issue.

I agree, it comes down to exactly that.  We are a society of watchers and the sports and entertainment industries own the nation's laws.  And I find it amusing at how it all plays itself out in our lives.  Some years ago we all had tape decks and turntables.  I would buy an album and immediately I dubbed a tape off of it and put the LP away.  I would only take it back out when my tape was no longer any good.  That extended the life of my LPs and I could still enjoy the music.  This action is now technically illegal, as now we do not buy music recordings, but merely the permission to listen to that disc in certain ways.

Also, some years ago, we all would take our LPs and mix a tape of our favorite music off of it.  This way we could enjoy more good songs and not have to skip the filler.  Of course, this led to sharing those tapes with our friends.  This did more to spread interest in an artist than did radio, that I can say for sure.  It was by this method that I found many bands of interest to me later.  This is filesharing, just not digital, and of course is now illegal.

Additionally, you could also tape a TV show and watch it over and over again.  Now of very questionable legality.

Why is all this?  Because of a fear of digital information.  But, none of the attacks and complaints can address that fundamentally this has been going on forever.  And just as shared tapes spread interest, today all of the people I know who download and share music have larger purchased CD collections than those I know who do not engage in filesharing.  They are music lovers, and use many means to build their collections.  I have yet to see anything that can really show that P2P has actually cost anyone any income.  The entire recording, sports, and movie industry seems to be growing, in general terms, and certainly there is no indication that I have ever seen that filesharing has done anything to them.

However, I still think people are ignoring the obvious fact that if you don't think it is immoral and should be illegal to borrow a book from a library then there can be little said about filesharing.  The government takes the people's money and buys books so that everybody else can read them without having to give any money to the author.  How much money is lost to authors via libraries?  I know I rarely buy books, and read them from the library instead.  As was said above, why buy the cow when the milk is free?  The only difference is that the government themselves are stealing from these authors, rather than supposed college students and so on.  It is just like the laws preventing you or I from engaging in a game of poker, but we can all go out and buy lotto tickets.

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« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2007, 11:34:11 AM »

The very idea that filesharing equals theft of intellectual property is foreign to Biblical morality. If it weren't for unauthorized copying, the Bible as we have it today would not exist.
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« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2007, 11:44:06 AM »

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the federal government, as supreme; Or unto state governments, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the government." - 1 Pet. 2:13-17
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« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2007, 12:03:18 PM »

Acts 5
28 Did we not strictly command you not to teach any man in this name? And behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and you intend to bring the blood of this man upon us.
29 Then Simon Peter with the rest of the apostles answered, saying to them, We must obey God rather than men.

1 Corinthians 6
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not advisable; indeed all things are lawful for me but I will not be brought under the power of any.
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« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2007, 12:25:07 PM »

Thrasymachus,

So how do you decide which laws you follow and which ones you don't? I am frankly amazed that a moral, upstanding young man like yourself, so bold about keeping himself pure (e.g., in sexual matters), would pollute yourself with such tomfoolerious and skullduggarious activity. From whence comes these immoral rationalizations, not to mention unlawful activities?
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« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2007, 12:39:00 PM »

^Thanks.  Make me feel dumber than I normally do.  You know, it takes me a while to get clued in to what you are talking about!!! Grin

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Thrasymachus of Chalcedon is one of several "older sophists" (including Antiphon, Critias, Hippias, Gorgias, and Protagoras) who became famous in Athens during the fifth century BCE. We know that Thrasymachus was born in Chalcedon, a colony of Megara in Bithynia, and that he had distinguished himself as a teacher of rhetoric and speechwriter in Athens by the year 427. Beyond this, relatively little is known about his life and works. Thrasymachus' lasting importance is due to his memorable place in the first book of Plato's Republic. Although it is not quite clear whether the views Plato attributes to Thrasymachus are indeed the views the historical person held, Thrasymachus' critique of justice has been of considerable importance, and seems to represent moral and political views that are representative of the Sophistic Enlightenment in late fifth century Athens.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/t/thrasymachus.htm
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« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2007, 12:43:03 PM »

Somehow I am not surprised that all of this originates from a kid who is hooked up to the campus internet teat, full of airy-fairy notions about how he would give away his work for nothing. What it is really about, of course, is getting something for nothing.

I've actually made studio recordings with singing groups; so has my son. It's tedious work, never mind all the practice that went before it. And you, Matthew, have the nerve to tell me that we should just give this stuff away for free?
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« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2007, 12:48:27 PM »

I own many CDs, most of which I have purchased used on Amazon. When such a transaction is made, no money is given to either the recording artist or the record label. If we are not allowed to download low quality MP3 files for free, how long will it be before we are no longer allowed to purchase used CDs?
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« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2007, 12:49:03 PM »

Quote
Make me feel dumber than I normally do.

Lol, well that certainly wasn't the intent! I certainly don't know much about Greek literature. It's just a name that I happen to remember, and I'm almost certain that Matthew wouldn't have known it, so I figure maybe if I call him that he would go off and look up who Thrasymachus was, and maybe think about why I was calling him that. I thought that'd probably have more of an effect than just giving my views outright. I still don't know if my Trojan horse worked though...  Grin
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« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2007, 01:06:35 PM »

Worked on me!!!  Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2007, 01:06:59 PM »

I've actually made studio recordings with singing groups; so has my son.

In high school, my band made an EP, which I'd be more than happy if people chose to copy and redistribute.
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« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2007, 01:23:25 PM »

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the federal government, as supreme; Or unto state governments, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the government." - 1 Pet. 2:13-17

If pro-life advocates were to take this passage literally, they would not protest Roe. One must consider the historical context of this letter, in which Saint Peter intended to protect the early Christians from avoidable persecution.
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« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2007, 01:28:11 PM »

Maybe. But it's your holy writ, not mine, so that little difficulty doesn't really bother me. So, again, can you explain how you decide which laws to follow? Or do you not have any guidelines that you follow, but just go through life picking and choosing as you go? Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2007, 01:31:22 PM »

So, again, can you explain how you decide which laws to follow?

The standard for secular law is the Law of God. That which is not condemned by Scripture should be allowed by the state.
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« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2007, 02:22:40 PM »

Thrasymachus

Ok, let's just sum up your arguments here.

Quote
I am of the persuasion that filesharing should be considered under "fair use" rather than theft.

Argument 1: I personally think it should be legal. Therefore, I'll act as though it is legal, and take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
Did Matthew and Luke commit theft in basing their Gospels on that of Mark?

Argument 2: People writing books of a historical nature sometimes take information from earlier works. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

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As a writer, I'd be more than happy if people made copies of my articles for redistributation, provided that they credit me for my work.

Argument 3: I would be happy if people circulated my work, though it's important that they include my name so that I could get the respect and compliments I deserve. Therefore, I can take any artwork that I want for myself without paying, as long as I don't tell anyone that I created it.

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I don't see why musicians who believe in their music wouldn't feel the same way.

Argument 4: As I sit here in my college, fed and on the road to a college education, I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't live up to my ideals. It's all about the music, man! I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying, and anyone who disagrees are not musicians, but greedy sell outs.

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is meant to be shared and enjoyed, not profited from.

Argument 5: I make art to be shared and enjoyed, not to be profited from. It naturally follows that everyone makes art to be shared and enjoyed, not to be profited from. It's simple logic. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

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If Jay-Z is already a multimillionaire, I think he could afford to let me download "Hard Knock Life" off Limewire.

Argument 6: It's ok to take something from someone without their permission if they are rich. They shouldn't care, and if they do they should refer to the above arguments. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
I burn a copy of every good CD that I check out at the library, and I feel no shame in it.

Argument 7: I get free music from the library and feel no shame. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
Without the "illegal" copying of music, CD burners wouldn't commonly exist.

Argument 8: CD burners wouldn't be commonly available if not for copying illegal music. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
Retail stores shouldn't sell CD burners, considering that they know full well what they will be used for.

Argument 9: People shouldn't sell things which might be used illegally. Retail stores sell CD burners, therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
There are anonymous P2P programs that prevent the government from interfering with your filesharing:

Argument 10: There are illegal ways to exchange works of art. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
If I were a professional writer, my only desire for compensation would be to cover the necessities of life. Once my article is published, and I've been paid for writing it, I wouldn't mind if others choose to copy and redistribute it, provided that they give me credit.

Argument 11: I agree that a writer should be paid for their work, but it is my view that this should only be 1) pay to cover the necessities of life and 2) pay for the original publication of the work. People who do not get paid at the time of publication, and are expecting payment through royalties, or people who get an advance that is to recouped, are screwed. Since these are my opinions, they should be applicable to all. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying. (cf Argument 3)

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Music artists should feel lucky about how wide of recognition they can receive from the general public if their music is made available on P2P networks.

Argument 12: People should be happy that people are stealing their artwork. Art doesn't count as property anyway. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

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P2P is a much more honest way than MTV and radio in generating artists' popularity, because it reflects what the people really want, rather than what record executives want you to hear.

Argument 13: Nothing can stop democracy from trampling the rights of individuals. Not even the mighty record company executives. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

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If the people really like what they hear, many will show their appreciation by actually purchasing your CDs and concert tickets in the future.

Argument 14: This argument is, of course, more about theory than practice. It's not like I actually buy the CD's. Rather, I steal the music off the internet, borrow from the library, copy the library CD, or if I really have to buy a used version. Nonetheless, I retain the right to defend myself by saying that people who really like the art will buy it. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

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If it weren't for the entertainment industry's influence over the federal government, filesharing would be a non-issue.

Argument 15: When musicians and other artists say that they want you to buy their album rather than ripping them off, it is just evidence that the entertainment industry has brainwashed them. If only people would stop protecting their property, I could take all I want without so many hurdles to jump over. After all, I should be able to take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

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The very idea that filesharing equals theft of intellectual property is foreign to Biblical morality.

Argument 16: Hezekiah clearly speaks about this matter. Anyone who didn't know that is biblically illiterate. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.


Quote
If it weren't for unauthorized copying, the Bible as we have it today would not exist.

Argument 17: It worked before, in my opinion, therefore it should be permissable today regardless of how different the context. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
Acts 5 28 Did we not strictly command you not to teach any man in this name? And behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and you intend to bring the blood of this man upon us.
29 Then Simon Peter with the rest of the apostles answered, saying to them, We must obey God rather than men.

Argument 18: Peter says that we must obey God rather than men. Men want me to obey their silly laws. God really wants me to have the new single that came out last week. I'm siding with God. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
1 Corinthians 6 12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not advisable; indeed all things are lawful for me but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Argument 19: I realise that stealing is not advisable, but it's still lawful morally since Christians don't have to follow all the civil laws. I pick and choose which ones to abide by, and which ones to ignore. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

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I own many CDs, most of which I have purchased used on Amazon. When such a transaction is made, no money is given to either the recording artist or the record label. If we are not allowed to download low quality MP3 files for free, how long will it be before we are no longer allowed to purchase used CDs?

Argument 20: As anyone who has taken a logic course can tell you, the slippery slope is an ironclad, fully logical and valid argument to make. I'm getting there music one way or the other. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
In high school, my band made an EP, which I'd be more than happy if people chose to copy and redistribute.

Argument 21: Mom and Dad fed me really well. If these greedy musicians want to make music, let them ask their own mom and dad's to support them. I'm not going to support such sell outs with the money my mom and dad gave to me for my own use. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
If pro-life advocates were to take this passage literally, they would not protest Roe. One must consider the historical context of this letter, in which Saint Peter intended to protect the early Christians from avoidable persecution.

Argument 22: I do what I think I should do, and don't do what I think I shouldn't do. I'm pro life, so a pro-life stance is self-evidently the correct position for all to take. Likewise with artwork, my position is self-evidently the right one. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
The standard for secular law is the Law of God. That which is not condemned by Scripture should be allowed by the state.

Argument 23: Biblical morality is the source and limit of what is and is not moral. Therefore, having your 13 year old daughter marry the next door neighbor--a common practice in biblical times--is perfectly acceptable. it was never outlawed after all, and continued to be practiced by Christians into the modern era. There are many other moral things that Christians should work on implementing. One of them is the ability to take artwork you want. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.
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« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2007, 02:23:03 PM »

In high school, my band made an EP, which I'd be more than happy if people chose to copy and redistribute.

LOL Your high school band. You mean while you were living off Mommy and Daddy?
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« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2007, 02:26:14 PM »

Thrasymachus

Ok, let's just sum up your arguments here.

LOL! Dude! THAT was righteous!  Cheesy

Poor M777's logic is lying on the floor, cut to pieces!
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« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2007, 02:31:21 PM »

LOL Your high school band. You mean while you were living off Mommy and Daddy?

I have a friend who owns a recording studio, so we were able to do it for free.
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« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2007, 02:32:57 PM »

Thrasymachus

Ok, let's just sum up your arguments here.

From my cold, dead hands!
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« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2007, 02:46:04 PM »

In high school, my band made an EP, which I'd be more than happy if people chose to copy and redistribute.

Well, the Slavic Male Chorus of Washington and the maryland State Boychoir do want payment for their recordings, if only because it costs money to run even an all volunteer group. YOu are awfully free with other people's money.
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« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2007, 03:42:45 PM »

Quote
CD burners wouldn't be commonly available if not for copying illegal music. Therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying.

Quote
People shouldn't sell things which might be used illegally. Retail stores sell CD burners, therefore, I can take any artwork I want for myself without paying

That's the liberal mentality in the United States - no one is ever personally responsible, blame can always be put on big coporations or somebody else. 

With the CD burner built into my computer, I have never burned a CD with illegally obtained music on it.  It is not that hard to avoid doing so, even though I get plenty of use out of it.  Buck up and take some responsibility for your own actions. 
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« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2007, 04:25:10 PM »

As to CD burners, I was discussing this thread with a friend who makes music and does sound work.  They have a CD burner to record *their own work*.  (So there *are* legitimate and ethical uses for them.)

Ebor
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« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2007, 04:30:04 PM »

I guess I'm naive, but I just assumed that most people used them as backups, now that floppys have become extinct.
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« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2007, 04:40:55 PM »

In high school, my band made an EP, which I'd be more than happy if people chose to copy and redistribute.

that's nice, Matthew.  that's great that you were able to write some music with a band and get it recorded.  i did that, too, putting out an split-ep, three albums, a live album and touring these great here United States for about six years.  We sold our records for travel money while touring so we could save whatever pittance we got paid at each gig for more recording.  We recorded 2/3s of our stuff at one of the best studios in the country (CUE Recording Studio in Falls Church, VA) and it wasn't cheap.  We kept the records cheap ($3 for the 7" ep and $8-10 for the cds) because we were just trying to break even, not make any real money.

Nowadays, I give it away.  High quality mp3s of most of the stuff is available online for free.  That's how I feel about my music (and my bandmates agree).  However, I would never begrudge anyone else who wanted me to pay for music they invested in creating and recording.  It's their music and their product.  

In the spirit of full disclosure, I do download music occasionally w/o paying for it via soulseek.  However, in my defense, it's always a copy of some old punk rock 7" or NWOBHM ep that is available nowhere else and will never be available again; the bands don't even exist anymore. These records live in the after-market collector's world and are prohibitively expensive to obtain and enjoy.  I have most of them on a cassette tape of some kind already, or even own the actual 7" itself but am, at present, unable to make a digital copy for my archives.

Does this make me a hypocrite?  Perhaps.  But for you to decide that current artists' materials should be free when you have no say at all in the production and dissemination of that product is outright ridiculous.

And yes, I broke my silent lurking for THIS.

Back to the shadows with me...
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« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2007, 04:41:10 PM »

Oh, and for information's sake, people or businesses that buy writing often want *all* the publishing rights at least for a period of time, not just one printing, and they aren't keen on having something that is being spread for free (since it cuts into their sales.)  It can be vital for a writer of any sort to have at least some knowledge of their rights.

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« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2007, 04:42:31 PM »

I guess I'm naive, but I just assumed that most people used them as backups, now that floppys have become extinct.

Well, that's why *we* have one.  It's always good to have a back-up with children in the house, just so you know. Sticky fingers and "Oooh. a little frisbee!!!" and all that.  Wink

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« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2007, 04:54:19 PM »

Schultz, Thanks for delurking and posting your thoughts.

Just for the record, my position isn't that people who download a song here or there are completely immoral. Ha, who am I to say that anyway?  Grin Actually I thought the recent Weird Al parody of those type of people was pretty funny.
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« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2007, 05:13:59 PM »

Captain of the immorality brigade checking in for duty! 
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« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2007, 05:29:43 PM »

A thought on Filesharing is the same as borrowing a book from the library:  books are printing with a certain number in a printing, that is there is a set number of copies.  One is bought by a library and people read it. A pressing of CDs is the same way, there are so many tangible copies made for sale or giving.

Filesharing by it's nature isn't "let me lend you this copy of a song." It is making more copies.  I can't really see someone borrowing a Stephen King novel from a library and making a copy to have (handwritten? photocopy? scanning?  It might happen, but doesn't seem likely.)

Ebor

Schultz, good to see you here again, and thanks for the input from someone else who's really been there.
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« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2007, 06:13:12 PM »

A thought on Filesharing is the same as borrowing a book from the library:  books are printing with a certain number in a printing, that is there is a set number of copies.  One is bought by a library and people read it. A pressing of CDs is the same way, there are so many tangible copies made for sale or giving.

Filesharing by it's nature isn't "let me lend you this copy of a song." It is making more copies.  I can't really see someone borrowing a Stephen King novel from a library and making a copy to have (handwritten? photocopy? scanning?  It might happen, but doesn't seem likely.)

I don't quite agree here, as I don't think the real issue presented on this thread was copies, but the alleged theft on the part of the downloader.  The fact is that borrowing from the library, from which a book is available for unlimited reading use, does in fact deny the possibility of a sale to the author of the work.  It does so in exactly the manner of a downloaded song.  If I want to hear Song A I can either buy it or download it.  If I want to read Book A I can either buy it or borrow it from a government run library.  Stephen King has the same right to a sale as Britney Spears, and I simply say that if we really believe that this is theft then we can see the library in no other way, not because of copies which are not of real issue, but because every use is a loss of a sale to an author.

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« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2007, 06:23:12 PM »

Well, one view is that making the copies of other people's material without their permission *is* stealing.  So it ties in that way.

Thank you for explaining your view.

Ebor
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« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2007, 06:49:26 PM »

With the CD burner built into my computer, I have never burned a CD with illegally obtained music on it.  It is not that hard to avoid doing so, even though I get plenty of use out of it.  Buck up and take some responsibility for your own actions. 

CD burners can be used for a legal purpose but, more often than not, they are for making illegal copies of media. Much like how a hookah can be utilized as a "tobacco accessory," but most purchased at head shops will invariably be used for “smoky toky.”
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« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2007, 06:53:43 PM »

CD burners can be used for a legal purpose but, more often than not, they are for making illegal copies of media. Much like how a hookah can be utilized as a "tobacco accessory," but most purchased at head shops will invariably be used for “smoky toky.”

And I presume you know this from personal experience?
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« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2007, 06:57:48 PM »

It has long been clear that the two sides will never agree on this issue, we've been fighting it since the advent of modern media. Those of us who advocate the free flow of information have never been wealthy enough nor organized enough (an inherent problem in any libertarian movement: lack of organization) to effectively twist and coerce the state to support our goals. But where we lack in matters of power and influence, we have fortunately made up for with intelligence and determination. The RIAA and MPAA and other opponents to the free flow of information have the might of the United States Government, Police Agencies, and Courts lined up behind them, and yet they are losing. They try again and again to destroy freedom, and they are defeated again and again. Yes, our cause has had martyrs, those who have suffered at the hands of despotism for the ideals of freedom, but each one only strengthens our base and support as the RIAA and MPAA are finding out. And with the help of such great and noble organizations as the Electronic Frontier Foundation we are winning the hearts and minds of previously apathetic Americans.

I guess it's part social concern, part political philosophy, and part religious fervour but I doubt the open source and freedom of information movements will stop until we have overcome those who seek to deny us access to information...Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils.
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« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2007, 07:01:19 PM »

CD burners can be used for a legal purpose but, more often than not, they are for making illegal copies of media.

No they can't because any law against the free flow of information is inherently invalid...and the 'enforcement' of such 'laws' is nothing more than a despotic imposition on the unalienable rights of men Wink

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Much like how a hookah can be utilized as a "tobacco accessory," but most purchased at head shops will invariably be used for “smoky toky.”

Hey, I quite like hookahs with nothing more than tobacco.
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« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2007, 07:10:47 PM »

CD burners can be used for a legal purpose but, more often than not, they are for making illegal copies of media. Much like how a hookah can be utilized as a "tobacco accessory," but most purchased at head shops will invariably be used for “smoky toky.”

"Most"?  It would look like you are making a sweeping generality based on your personal experiences and this is not a good example to back up your idea.  The Hookah/shesha/nargile as used in India, Turkey and the Middle East in general is used for smoking sweetened and flavoured tobacco.  I have also read of hookah establishments in the US that provide a menu of tobaccos to smoke.  Just because some persons (in the US) have taken it and are using it for other forms of plant material doesn't make it chiefly for the consumption of that.

Ebor
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« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2007, 07:16:28 PM »

I'll ask again.  How is a copyrighted work "information" along the lines of grammar or mathematics?

This is not a binary situation between the Evil Government/RIAA/Corporations and the Freedom-loving Liberators of Art.   There is a large "grey" area that is occupied by such people as Schultz and the many small independent artists and writers and musicians who don't want their creations taken without permission let alone recompense.  They don't want their work frozen for perpetuity, but in the here and now they need to eat or pay the recording studio or get the children shoes.

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« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2007, 07:23:30 PM »

Just because some persons (in the US) have taken it and are using it for other forms of plant material doesn't make it chiefly for the consumption of that.

That is true, which is why my example was limited to hookahs purchased at head shops.
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« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2007, 07:39:53 PM »

I'll ask again.  How is a copyrighted work "information" along the lines of grammar or mathematics?

How is it not information, it is encoded in bits just as computers record grammar of mathematics; yet you can claim rights over one order of bits though not another? Where is the consistency? It just like those who tried to claim copyrights over segments of the human genome, how can you own rights to a dna sequence? Be it the ordering of bits or the ordering of dna, to claim ownership is utterly absurd. They are the same bits, regardless of ordering, bits that everyone has a right to, and to claim that I, and only I, can order my bits in this manner, and no body else can is nonsense. Then take this a step further, no copy is perfect, a few bits will always be changed in the copying process do to a small amount of randomness in computational and data storage devices...thus the copied set of bits is a DIFFERENT ordering than the previous ordering...yet some still claim rights? Even though it is a DIFFERENT ordering than the one they invented? Where is the reason to that? Where does the nonsense stop? I'll tell you, it only stops when people stop claiming exclusive rights to organize 1's and 0's and recognize that we all have the right to do as we wish with our bits.

On the more abstract level of information in general, rather than bits and their ordering in particular, information that enters the public arena automatically becomes informatoin from an academic perspective (which I believe is the distinction you're trying to make), surely modern music and movies could be relevant to a student or researcher of behavioural science, sociology, psychology, or anthropology...should their research and these fields be inhibited and restricted because of those who wish to deny the free flow of information in order that they may profit off of it? And this is to say nothing of the artistic disciplines which are only protected in part.

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This is not a binary situation between the Evil Government/RIAA/Corporations and the Freedom-loving Liberators of Art.

Easy for you to say, you haven't made a religion out of it Wink All Hail The Great Penguin God Tux!!! Grin
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« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2007, 08:39:43 PM »

...we all have the right to do as we wish with our bits.

I wouldn't go that far. It should definitely be illegal to create and distribute child pornography.
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« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2007, 08:50:28 PM »

I wouldn't go that far. It should definitely be illegal to create and distribute child pornography.

Why stop at child pornography? Why not continue on to pornography in general? How about inflammatory speech? What about revolutionary speech? What about political speech in general? What about speech against the state? What about art that is contrary to the morals of society? What about art that is contrary to the benifit of the state? Where do you draw the line?

As disgusting and disgraceful as I find child pornography, I respectfully disagree with your assertion. Information should be free of any governmental or legal restriction or restraint.
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« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2007, 08:55:24 PM »

Information should be free of any governmental or legal restriction or restraint.

Just like how heroine and AK-47s should be free of any government legal restriction or restraint?
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« Reply #96 on: January 11, 2007, 09:00:56 PM »

Just like how heroine and AK-47s should be free of any government legal restriction or restraint?

Well, these are different issues, completely unrelated to the free flow of information, but to answer your question...yes. As for the former, if you want to screw yourself up, that's your business, as for any social ills that may arise, tax it to make up for them, but eliminate victimless crimes. As for the latter, the right to keep and bear arms is an unalienable right...if anything the law should require you to own a weapon capable of military service.

Didn't I mention something about libertarianism in a previous post?
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« Reply #97 on: January 11, 2007, 09:38:15 PM »

Those who claim that filesharing is against Orthodox morality because of an innovation in Western legal systems are just as out there as a Singapore resident who would claim chewing gum ungodly:

"You see, chewing gum is detrimental to public order because of the possibility of littering. Therefore any who chew gum must hate their fellow man, and that's against the prohibition to love one's neighbour as oneself."

Copyright was forced on the Orthodox world by nations who came up with the notion in a time of rising secularism, and was foreign to the Church and Orthodox rulers for the vast majority of its existence. Any attempt to argue for its applicability requires resort to non-Orthodox legal thinking. And as for the exhortation above to obey all laws, this is an interesting case where nations have had to enact laws because of pressure from stronger nations, but within said country, these laws are not enforced (unless it were a violation so big it proved embarassing to the country in front of stronger nations, like the case of AllMP3.com). If e.g. Romania has signed copyright laws, but looks the other way as millions of young people fileshare--and ISPs openly facilitate filesharing by creating their own local city sharing hubs without penalty--claims that it is a law that must be followed are even harder to defend.
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« Reply #98 on: January 12, 2007, 08:07:09 AM »

Right now, I am listening to The Police: Greatest Hits on my CD player. I did not pay for the music, but downloaded it online. As I listen to De Do Do Do, De Da Da Da, I'm not necessarily thinking of logical arguments in favor of filesharing, but how happy I feel at the time. If no demonstrable harm is done, the feds should let me be.

Peace.
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« Reply #99 on: January 12, 2007, 08:18:31 AM »

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... I'm not necessarily thinking of logical arguments in favor of filesharing, but how happy I feel at the time. If no demonstrable harm is done, the feds should let me be.

Now if that doesn't open up a can of worms, I don't know what would!  Grin
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« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2007, 08:22:28 AM »

Now if that doesn't open up a can of worms, I don't know what would!  Grin
Worms make excellent bait for fishing.
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« Reply #101 on: January 12, 2007, 08:26:14 AM »

Now if that doesn't open up a can of worms, I don't know what would!  Grin

It isn't much different from the admission that while we cannot logically prove the existence of God, we cannot disprove His existence either. If you could demonstrate that my downloading of David Bowie and Police tracks causes harm, then perhaps you'd have a reasonable case against me. 
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« Reply #102 on: January 12, 2007, 08:31:53 AM »

I am saying that, using that rather subjective and vague criterion, quite a bit could be justified. But hey, far be it from me to speak against hedonism! I fully support you in your new found sense of freedom. Grin
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« Reply #103 on: January 12, 2007, 08:36:09 AM »

I am saying that, using that rather subjective and vague criterion, quite a bit could be justified. But hey, far be it from me to speak against hedonism! I fully support you in your new found sense of freedom. Grin

I am not a hedonist. As Saint Paul wrote, anything that is not condemned by Scripture is permissible under God. I don't need a logical argument for filesharing any more so than I need one for using Crest tooth paste.
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« Reply #104 on: January 12, 2007, 08:42:22 AM »

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I am not a hedonist.

Oh. Oh no. Of course not. You just pick and choose.  Grin
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« Reply #105 on: January 12, 2007, 08:47:51 AM »

Oh. Oh no. Of course not. You just pick and choose.  Grin

Again, I direct you to St. Paul:

1 Corinthians 6
12 ¶ All things are lawful for me, but all things are not advisable; indeed all things are lawful for me but I will not be brought under the power of any.
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« Reply #106 on: January 12, 2007, 08:57:25 AM »

Exactly.
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« Reply #107 on: January 12, 2007, 09:41:21 AM »

You know, the only thing here more irritating than arguing against matthew is trying to argue a position he thinks he kinda supports.
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« Reply #108 on: January 12, 2007, 09:59:09 AM »

You know, the only thing here more irritating than arguing against matthew is trying to argue a position he thinks he kinda supports.

You took the most extreme position, something I would not have done.
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« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2007, 10:06:02 AM »

Come on Matthew, one look at your myspace page and it's obvious that you cannot tolerate anything approaching a mainstream position. You will embrace everything Catholic, Hebrew (which seems to be your latest theme), esoterically Eastern, or otherwise non-Orthodox, just so long as it isn't mainstream. Why don't you hook up with one of those young women you have as a friend on myspace, like that (NAME REMOVED) girl. She's a little older than you, maybe a little more experienced, and seems pretty outgoing (offensive material removed) just hook up!

Edited to remove offensive material.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 12:33:38 AM by ozgeorge » Logged
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« Reply #110 on: January 12, 2007, 10:16:11 AM »

OK. Stop right there.
I'm locking this thread until I talk to the other mods about it.
In the meantime
1) Do not post things which are demeaning to women.
2) Do not bring women into disrepute by naming them and directing people to their myspace.

For those wishing to continue the discussion on the morality of copyright laws, a new thread has been started in Faith Issues here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10808.0.html
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 11:29:15 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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