Poll

Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?

YES
9 (29%)
NO
22 (71%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Author Topic: Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?  (Read 2667 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nonchal

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?
« on: February 26, 2007, 11:48:26 PM »
I think its obvious that he was. But I am asking to see what the EO thinks. Please no RCers vote on this.

The EO is upset over this phrase because the RC has understood it to mean one head with Jesus Christ. But it need not be so. Rather, the first bishop in an area (whether local, regional, or universal) was called chief and head, because his task was to preside over councils ectetera. This is all the phrase "head" means.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2007, 06:22:56 PM »
Wow. This is a popular thread.  ;D
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline AMM

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,076
Re: Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2007, 06:49:48 PM »
Wow. This is a popular thread.  ;D

I would imagine people have surmised it was not intended to foster a reasoned discussion.

Offline username!

  • Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,081
Re: Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2007, 05:06:29 AM »
I would also assume that since this question is rampant on all similiar forums people are getting worn out debating this.  Why ask the public when there are many books out there that answer this question.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2007, 10:50:34 AM »
Well, this thread looks like it is intended to get a rise out of people.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline AMM

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,076
Re: Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2007, 12:22:23 PM »
Well, this thread looks like it is intended to get a rise out of people.

and it's a silly question since we all know the head of the church before the schism was the Emperor.  :P

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2007, 12:24:55 PM »
and it's a silly question since we all know the head of the church before the schism was the Emperor.  :P
:D
BTW, anyone know what Church nonchal belongs to?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 12:38:27 PM by Papist »
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline JoeS

  • (aka StMarkEofE)
  • Site Supporter
  • OC.net guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,122
  • Global Warming Enthusiast.
Re: Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2009, 11:08:46 PM »
I would also assume that since this question is rampant on all similiar forums people are getting worn out debating this.  Why ask the public when there are many books out there that answer this question.

As an Orthodox Christian we believe that Jesus Christ is the only head of the Catholic church.  End of discussion.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2009, 04:06:29 PM »
I think its obvious that he was. But I am asking to see what the EO thinks. Please no RCers vote on this.

The EO is upset over this phrase because the RC has understood it to mean one head with Jesus Christ. But it need not be so. Rather, the first bishop in an area (whether local, regional, or universal) was called chief and head, because his task was to preside over councils ectetera. This is all the phrase "head" means.
I'm pretty sure Jesus is the head of the Church (and before anyone has a seizure, I am using the term "Church" in a generic sense). I don't eve now think of the Pope as the of my Church, but rather a vicar, steward, vizier. etc.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 04:06:54 PM by Papist »
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,468
Re: Was the pope called the "head" of the Church before the Schism?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2009, 09:02:49 PM »
I think its obvious that he was. But I am asking to see what the EO thinks. Please no RCers vote on this.

The EO is upset over this phrase because the RC has understood it to mean one head with Jesus Christ. But it need not be so. Rather, the first bishop in an area (whether local, regional, or universal) was called chief and head, because his task was to preside over councils ectetera. This is all the phrase "head" means.
I'm pretty sure Jesus is the head of the Church (and before anyone has a seizure, I am using the term "Church" in a generic sense). I don't eve now think of the Pope as the of my Church, but rather a vicar, steward, vizier. etc.

Your head thinks otherwise. Lumen Gentium 22 (Vatican II):

But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27*) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.(159)(28*) This college, insofar as it is composed of many, expresses the variety and universality of the People of God, but insofar as it is assembled under one head, it expresses the unity of the flock of Christ. In it, the bishops, faithfully recognizing the primacy and pre-eminence of their head, exercise their own authority for the good of their own faithful, and indeed of the whole Church, the Holy Spirit supporting its organic structure and harmony with moderation. The supreme power in the universal Church, which this college enjoys, is exercised in a solemn way in an ecumenical council. A council is never ecumenical unless it is confirmed or at least accepted as such by the successor of Peter; and it is prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke these councils, to preside over them and to confirm them.(29*) This same collegiate power can be exercised together with the pope by the bishops living in all parts of the world, provided that the head of the college calls them to collegiate action, or at least approves of or freely accepts the united action of the scattered bishops, so that it is thereby made a collegiate act.

23. This collegial union is apparent also m the mutual relations of the individual bishops with particular churches and with the universal Church. The Roman Pontiff, as the successor of Peter, is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity of both the bishops and of the faithful.(30*) The individual bishops, however, are the visible principle and foundation of unity in their particular churches, (31*) fashioned after the model of the universal Church, in and from which churches comes into being the one and only Catholic Church.(32*) For this reason the individual bishops represent each his own church, but all of them together and with the Pope represent the entire Church in the bond of peace, love and unity.


Paster Aeternus (Vatican I):
Chapter 3: On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff

1. And so, supported by the clear witness of Holy Scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman Pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical Council of Florence [49], which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the "holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church and father and teacher of all Christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal Church. All this is to be found in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons."

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth