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Author Topic: Ecclesiastical Models of the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church  (Read 2793 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 30, 2007, 02:41:57 AM »

Europaica 131 24 November 2007

Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: The Ecclesiastical Models of the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church are Essentially Different

The 10th meeting of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches recently ended its plenary assembly held in Ravenna, Italy. The delegation of the Moscow Patriarchate withdrew from the meeting in protest against the participation in the event of members of the so-called Estonian Apostolic Church, a Church set up by the Constantinople Patriarchate in 1996 in Estonia, which the Moscow church considers part of its territory. This drew strong criticism from Constantinople.

One critical issue of the meeting was a discussion of primacy in the Universal Church and final study of the document entitled The Ecclesiological and Canonical Consequences of the Sacramental Nature of the Church which was addressed by the participants of the dialogue at the meeting held in Belgrade in September 2006. The meeting raised a controversy over the wording contained in one paragraph of the document relative to the authority of Ecumenical Councils, in particular, parallelism of "communion with Rome" for the Local Churches in the West and "communion with Constantinople" for the
Orthodox Churches. This parallelism was strongly opposed by the delegation of the Moscow Patriarchate.

In his interview with the Interfax, the Russian Orthodox Church representative to the European international organizations Bishop Hilarion of Vienna and Austria discussed the issues of who was responsible for the derailed meeting in Ravenna and why Constantinople was interested to address the primacy in the Orthodox world.

Your Eminence, Metropolitan John of Pergamon [of the Patriarchate of
Constantinople] accused the Russian Orthodox Church of authoritarianism after its decision to walk out of the meeting in Ravenna. What was your reaction to his words?


Metropolitan John of Pergamon as co-president of the joint commission for Orthodox-Catholic dialogue is responsible for derailing the dialogue. His comments and the final text of the document work on which has finished in Ravenna without the participation of the Moscow Patriarchate may produce the impression that Patriarchate of Constantinople deliberately pushed the Moscow Patriarchate to withdraw from the dialogue so that decisions should be passed that would have been impossible with the participation of the Moscow Patriarchate.

What do you mean in particular?

As an example I may give Paragraph 39 of the document which states that convening Ecumenical Council in the strict sense of this word became impossible after the schism between the East and the West in the 11th century, however, "both Churches continued to hold councils whenever serious crises arose. These councils gathered together the bishops of local Churches in communion with the See of Rome or, although understood in a different way, with the See of Constantinople, respectively". Back at the Belgrade meeting of the Joint International Commission in 2006, I raised several critical objections to this issue. According to the Orthodox tradition, communion with the See of Constantinople is not considered a prerequisite of unity to the same extend as "communion with the See of Rome" is considered a prerequisite for Western Churches.

The ecclesiastical models of the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church are essentially different, and the Patriarch of Constantinople has never played the same role as the bishop of Rome plays in the Catholic Church. One criterion of collegiality in the Orthodox Church has always been Eucharistic and canonical communion between Local Churches, and not just communion with the See of Constantinople. Besides, in certain historic periods one or another Local Church had no communion with the See of Constantinople, and that did not affect its full collegiality. In particular, the Russian Church suspended de facto its communion with Constantinople after the Council of Florence in the 15th century when the Patriarch of Constantinople signed the union with Rome. However, it continued to be in communion with other Local Churches.

In Belgrade, the update of the document was entrusted to the editorial committee of the Joint International Commission. In February 2007, the Committee proposed the wording which could satisfy the Moscow Patriarchate. However, the Patriarchate of Constantinople objected to this wording, since it did not mention "communion with the See of Constantinople". In the absence of the Moscow Patriarchate representatives the version of the editorial committee was rejected, and the text objected by the Russian Church was included back into the final document.

Why is Constantinople so interested in discussing the primacy in the Church which actually turns into imposing the Patriarchate of Constantinople as the "Eastern Pope"?

The Patriarchate of Constantinople is extremely interested in discussing the issue of primacy in the Universal Church, because within the framework of the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue it hopes to force Local Churches to interpret the primacy in a way that could extend its historical rights. Until now, Orthodox Churches have acknowledged only the primacy of honour of the Patriarch of
Constantinople. However, Metropolitan John Zizioulas expresses in his interviews the point of view according to which the notion of "primacy of honour" is inconsistent with the Orthodox canon law.

Constantinople wants to force on us a model of church organization that has never existed in Orthodox tradition and that is closer to the centralized model existing in the Roman Catholic Church. In that model, the patriarch of Constantinople would have the role of the "Eastern pope".

But will other Local Churches agree to that?

The next round of talks, to start in 2009, would show whether other Orthodox Churches would accept the alleged model. However, it is already clear that the absence of the Moscow Patriarchate will make the work to develop such a model much easier.


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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 06:48:49 AM »

An op-ed hit piece on the EP...no surprises here.
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2007, 01:00:29 AM »

An op-ed hit piece on the EP...no surprises here.

In your opinion, is there any validity in the statements made by the MP?
I am under the omophorion of the EP, however some of these moves seem a bit disturbing to me.

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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2007, 02:11:02 AM »

In your opinion, is there any validity in the statements made by the MP?
I am under the omophorion of the EP, however some of these moves seem a bit disturbing to me.
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Just to state my position clearly.  I am not an ecumenist.  Ecumenism for me means the opportunity for others to learn about the Orthodox faith and conversely for us to learn about theirs.  I rarely attend non-Orthodox services except such things as the funerals of old friends.

That said, I want to present a few "official" examples which show the consistency and conservatism of the Orthodox viewpoint throughout the years of ecumenism...

1. 1957. The Statement of the Representatives of the Greek Orthodox Church in the USA at the North American Faith and Order Study Conference, Oberlin, Ohio, September 1957.  This is quite unequivocal about the uniqueness of Orthodoxy as the Church.

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ecumenical/gocamerica_faith_order_sept_1957.htm


2. 1980s. The contretemps in the 1980s at the International Roman Catholic-Orthodox Theological Dialogue which saw a walk-out of the Catholic participants when the Orthodox delegates declared that they were unable to accept Catholic baptism per se.  These were not fringy palaeohiemerologhites but the most ecumenically minded bishops and theologians of the canonical Orthodox Churches.  This question has never been revisted in the international dialogue but one day it will need to be faced head on.


3.  1997.  Even the most ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople His Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different. Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."

Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

The Jesuits declared morosely that Patr. Bartholomew had set the dialogue back 10 years.


4. 2000.   The important Statement on Orthodoxy and its ecumenical relationships with non-Orthodox Churches issued by the 2000 Millennial Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.  It basically repeats what the Greeks said at Oberlin Ohio in 1957 and even more emphatically - the boundaries of the Church are those of the Orthodox Church.

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ecumenical/roc_other_christian_confessions.htm
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2009, 08:58:39 AM »


Giving this topic a bump because I want to ask if it is still true that the 11th Meeting of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches is planned to take place this year.

Does anybody know the dates and the location?
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2009, 09:18:59 AM »


Giving this topic a bump because I want to ask if it is still true that the 11th Meeting of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches is planned to take place this year.

Given what others have said on Byzcath about the recent changes in the Antiochian Archdioces, if still being held, it ought to be interesting.
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2009, 09:34:15 AM »


Giving this topic a bump because I want to ask if it is still true that the 11th Meeting of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches is planned to take place this year.

Given what others have said on Byzcath about the recent changes in the Antiochian Archdioces, if still being held, it ought to be interesting.

Crossed my mind too. 

Wonder how many Antiochians priests will find it impossible to obey the directive and not commemorate their bishop today?  It can't be easy, especially if a priest has a high regard for his bishop, for both the priest and the faithful to simply stop praying for him at the Liturgy.
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