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Author Topic: This really disturbs me, what do i say?  (Read 4439 times) Average Rating: 0
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aurelia
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« on: January 09, 2007, 01:17:49 PM »

Warning the link may be disturbing for some of you...I would shoo the children out if I were you.

http://www.ourbodytheuniversewithin.com/future_exhibits.htm

I have seen tv shows about this exhibit before, but this bothers me SO much! And there are ads on TV in the morning (we saw one this morning in fact, my kids saw way more than I would have liked) and so i had to explain it.  All i could come up with was that while we do keep specimens and medical research..parts etc, this went way beyond that.  I said it isn't a religious thing (not as far as dogma goes) but one just does not desecrate the dead, and not in the name of art.  I dont think this is art, it is like something out of Hellbound Hellraiser II or something.  Of course I am one of those that try not to walk on a grave and tipping tombstones or robbing graves is just not cool.  Hypocritical I suppose considering I am a big fan of archaeology! But I digress.

I was reading the website (no I am not just going off uninformed) but personally I do not see the purpose of such a thing. In a way it is fascinating, I suppose, from a medical standpoint but why are they " artfully arranged"? 
Obviously I dont think it's going to be tops on my list of fun family activities to catch this winter. Just my opinion.

Which brings me to a question, does the Church have an opinion on medical specimens and things like this or is it one of those things that is sort of...not addressed?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 01:19:21 PM by aurelia » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 02:32:21 PM »

Fwiw, while not directly dealing with this, I was recently reading something that might be a similar issue to think about. The book pointed out that Christians used to have major reservations about using cadavers for research and teaching, but many have come around because of the advantages of it. Personally, I don't see what is so wrong with the practice, considering that the alternative is for the body to become worm food. Even if you believe in the bodily resurrection, your God would still have to rematerialize humans from the dust (again).
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 03:31:05 PM »

I agree with you, Aurelia.  I find this whole thing extremely disturbing.  It's  very disrespectful of the human body.  I suppose that this is one of the things that we should not be surprised about in today's world, since so many people simply see the body as a "receptacle" for their person.  People think:a body is something that I have, it is not something that I am.

Nevertheless, the guy responsible for inventing "plastination", Dr. Gunther von Hagens, is an extremely controversial figure.  He has organised all kinds of exhibits like this one across the world that show corpses playing basketball or exercising or sitting down or whatever.  It seems that he was cleared of accusations that claimed that he received corpses from Chinese concentration camps that were people who were executed.  I'm not sure how clear his vindication was on this front.  At one point, many of the bodies he used did come from China (and maybe still do, I don't know).  He claims that people donate their bodies to him, and that some of the ones in his exhibits were even friends of his in life.  IMO, it just goes to show what happens when we have no respect for people or any belief in the importance of the body, or if we have a disincarnate theology.  Really macabre and grisly stuff, IMO.

Christianity should not be afraid to learn from science, but this learning should be done without desecrating bodies or other holy things.  This whole thing just has the appearance of a freak show.
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 04:10:58 PM »

It's either a testament to the death denial which pervades our societies than to photograph cadavers doing "living things" or a powerfull symbol of the fact that we are walking, talking corpses. Either way, it's not science, it's art.
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 04:12:15 PM »

Our Anatomy class went to see this exhibit in Boston. It was quite fascinating, really. They don't even discourage people from touching the bodies.

I see nothing wrong with it. They are arranged in certain every-day ways to show us what our body does in those situations, how the muscles contract, etc. Having a body standing up completely straight wouldn't give us a very good understanding of how the body works.

As freakish as this looks, the exhibits are not at art shows, but only at science museums. When I was there, diagrams explained what body parts support the body weight, how the muscles are attached to the bone, etc. Not to mention, there's no solid proof these were executed victims whose bodies were not signed over. In fact, at the end of the exhibit, they had a paper to donate your body to Plastination.

In all, it's a very amazing and not gruesome if you look at it with a medical standpoint. It's the same idea with dissecting a cadaver for medical students. How would we ever train our medical professionals without 'destroying' a human body for greater understanding? This just grants a greater understanding to laymen who aren't in medical school.
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 04:14:12 PM »

It's funny, someone I was talking to today mentioned this and how great it was.  I do have problems with dead people not being buried though.

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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 05:35:57 PM »

Th Orthodox Christian Association of Medicine, Psychology, and Religion (OCAMPR) may be a source of information for those interested:

http://www.ocampr.org/index.asp

While they do sell books and materials through Holy Cross, it is also possible that you could contact some of the authors of these items (some of the individuals who are medical practitioners are also priests---my first year at seminary we had four people who were doctors who also started the same year I did) and ask them questions.

Additionally, OCAMPR does meet regularly to discuss medicine and ethics, so the knowledge of this organization's existence is needed for every Orthodox Christian.
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2007, 06:47:55 PM »

Not everyone shares the Orthodox understanding of the body and resurrection, so why force them to abide by our burial rituals. If they wish to donate their bodies to these scientific endeavours, great, and hopefully we can all learn from them.
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2007, 06:52:09 PM »

Our class also wants to go take a look.  It's science mixed in with professional dissection and motion (art I guess if you want to think of it in that manner) to show exactly how muscles work along with the body when we do certain actions.

Medical schools all over have plastinated sections preserved for presentations (and preserved cross sections as well in those "glass" boxes--I don't know the material).  The cadavers we use are literally butchered the end we use them and cut into pieces sicne we are not perfect dissectors, but the anatomists who dissect the bodies you see in the exhibits (which I have yet to go) are professionals, and they do this for scientific purposes even if others seem to look at it as art.

I haven't really thought about the children part; I'm sure it's better to not show them these bodies at such a young age.

But I'm not disturbed by this at all, unless the sources he got it from were illegal.

God bless.

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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2007, 12:57:53 AM »

  Hasn't dissection and the study of cadavers gone on long enough for realistic exhibits to be manufactured without resorting to the voyeuristic aspect of displaying "actual human bodies"?
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2007, 01:11:21 AM »

Well said, DavidH.
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2007, 01:25:24 AM »

The Church Council in Seattle, a very lib group has recommended a boycott of this exhibition.  The chief issue was that the bodies are those of executed prisoners.  I personally would not be happy to see my Mother's body on show or that of an Orthodox Saint in a daily pose.  For me this is simply a freak show.
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2007, 02:57:50 AM »

  Hasn't dissection and the study of cadavers gone on long enough for realistic exhibits to be manufactured without resorting to the voyeuristic aspect of displaying "actual human bodies"?

I don't think that was a fair question, unless I'm wrong.  Dissection only shows us a realistic view of structure without study of motion.  The exhibition shows us more than structure, i.e. what happens to the structure on a certain motion.

So, in my case for example, it was hard for me to visualize how and why which muscles did what.  Perhaps, this exhibit can help, and makes it more interesting by incorporating it with everyday lives.

God bless.

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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2007, 04:21:26 AM »

Not everyone shares the Orthodox understanding of the body and resurrection, so why force them to abide by our burial rituals. If they wish to donate their bodies to these scientific endeavours, great, and hopefully we can all learn from them.
Absolutely. I have no problem with that. Having studied anatomy and physiology myself, I have dissected human cadavers. What I have a problem with is treating them like figures in a wax works museum for the amusement/entertainment of slack jawed yokels and charging two bits a gander.
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2007, 04:33:14 AM »

Absolutely. I have no problem with that. Having studied anatomy and physiology myself, I have dissected human cadavers. What I have a problem with is treating them like figures in a wax works museum for the amusement/entertainment of slack jawed yokels and charging two bits a gander.

Right on.  Cool
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2007, 05:25:18 PM »

What I have a problem with is treating them like figures in a wax works museum for the amusement/entertainment of slack jawed yokels and charging two bits a gander.

As has been stated, they are positioned that way for science. Nobody walks into this exhibit with a Beret on their head and a paintbrush in their mouth going off on how "artsy-fartsy" it is. It doesn't just show humans, either. It makes a comparison between the bodies of horses and camels to that of humans. There would be no medical nor educational purpose by leaving bodies in a coffin with their skin on to "preserve the dignity of God's creation."

Frankly, this is a non-issue to me. They were not Orthodox, and nobody has any solid proof they came from concentration camps.

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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2007, 06:09:07 PM »

As has been stated, they are positioned that way for science.

Science is done among professionals in a lab. Putting these on display to the public and charging them money to let them fulfill their curiosity in freakishness is not science.
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2007, 06:22:48 PM »

We no longer live in a world where science is a secret art that only little bald men in lab-coats can comprehend. We live in an age where the public wish to know about the ways a human body works. I suppose this is what you call "fufilling their curiosity", but then again, the same can be said for fufilling your curiosity by joining a church yet needing to pay a large sum every year as stewardship.

And as I said, when I was there, nobody was saying "Harhar, they's a' gone an' make 'em plastic-lookin' *Snort*"

I feel that all of society needs to have the basic knowledge of how the body works, because understanding that is seeing how truly great God is.
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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2007, 06:46:18 PM »

People get too worked up over nothing. There's an Orthodox monastery in Ohio that has a peculiar painting in it's little library. The painting is one of the grim reaper, depressed or dejected, hunched over in a chair, with a library in the background. It's a mesmerizing sight, one of the most intriguing works of art I've ever seen. Someone could get all nit picky and start chastising the monks, "Say there old man! Why do you have such a morbid painting in a house of light? Do you not know that Christ has trampled death with death? Why would you personify death in such a fashion? Blah blah blah". I mean, come on, what's the big deal? This isn't about entertainment. When I want to be entertained I'll get a horror DVD. Or just watch one of the ones I already have.
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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2007, 07:19:24 PM »

Exactly. Well put.
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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2007, 09:13:52 PM »

"Figures of wax" used to study how the body works are no different to me than cadavers in lab you dissect.  Both can be "amusing" and "entertaining" depending on your personal interests (I'd rather look at an already dissected cadaver than dissect on my own).  Some "yokels" are not even allowed in medical schools to look at cadavers, and it costs 2000 more than 2 bits a year to work with them.  And what in the world is "jack slawed"?

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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2007, 09:53:41 PM »

As has been stated, they are positioned that way for science. Nobody walks into this exhibit with a Beret on their head and a paintbrush in their mouth going off on how "artsy-fartsy" it is. It doesn't just show humans, either. It makes a comparison between the bodies of horses and camels to that of humans. There would be no medical nor educational purpose by leaving bodies in a coffin with their skin on to "preserve the dignity of God's creation."

The "in the name of science" argument is invalid for the bodies in the exhibit serve as VISUAL AIDS only.  You can do that with plastics and the public wouldn't know the difference.  I don't see the point of using actual bodies for presentation purposes.  More than anything else, the exhibit wants to publicize man's new-found ability to preserve the flesh and toy around with it.

Who knows, if you don't condemn this malpractice, the Ronald McDonald statue of the future would be the real thing.

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Frankly, this is a non-issue to me. They were not Orthodox, and nobody has any solid proof they came from concentration camps.

But YOU are--if I'm not mistaken--Orthodox.  Do you have no respect for the dead?
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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2007, 09:58:31 PM »

People get too worked up over nothing. There's an Orthodox monastery in Ohio that has a peculiar painting in it's little library. The painting is one of the grim reaper, depressed or dejected, hunched over in a chair, with a library in the background. It's a mesmerizing sight, one of the most intriguing works of art I've ever seen. Someone could get all nit picky and start chastising the monks, "Say there old man! Why do you have such a morbid painting in a house of light? Do you not know that Christ has trampled death with death? Why would you personify death in such a fashion? Blah blah blah". I mean, come on, what's the big deal? This isn't about entertainment. When I want to be entertained I'll get a horror DVD. Or just watch one of the ones I already have.

Paintings and movies are irrelevant to the discussion.  It's not about morbidity, either.
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« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2007, 10:01:17 PM »

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Paintings and movies are irrelevant to the discussion.

The point was 1) that people nitpick too much, and using a similarly narrow-minded view, much in life would be condemned; and 2) that people complaining about this as though it were some type of "entertainment" were off base.

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It's not about morbidity, either.

I think it is, for some, though they may or may not admit it (even to themselves).

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« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2007, 10:28:06 PM »

Quote
Do you have no respect for the dead?

Speaking for myself here (I know it wasn't directed to me), but I have high respect for people who donate their bodies for science.  Perhaps, this is utmost respect to the dead than disrespect, dare I say a veneration of those who possessed those bodies to be put in display or in dissection.  I don't see it any different than butchering a dead cadaver or cutting relics into pieces and spreading them to different churches for venerations.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2007, 10:34:26 PM »

They were not Orthodox,...

umm, maybe I don't understand this.  EO are not permitted to donate their bodies to science or only EO cadavers are due respect or??

I apologize for not getting what you mean here.

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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2007, 05:57:44 AM »

As has been stated, they are positioned that way for science. Nobody walks into this exhibit with a Beret on their head and a paintbrush in their mouth going off on how "artsy-fartsy" it is.
What has that got to do with anything? How does opening an exhibit to the public make it "science"? Science is research and the search for facts- are you telling me that everyone who goes to this exhibit is there for research purposes? At best you could say it is an attempt to "educate", but there is no way it is "science".
Since when does "science" advertise like the website of this exhibit?
Quote
An eye-opening and educational exhibition comprised of authentic human bodies and organs will make its Midwest debut at The New Detroit Science Center Jan. 13, 2007 – Sept. 3, 2007. Our Body: The Universe Within will include approximately 20 bodies and 135 other anatomical displays. Advance tickets will go on sale on-line Dec. 1, 2006 at www.detroitsciencecenter.org. Source: http://www.ourbodytheuniversewithin.com/future_exhibits.htm
Since when does scientific medical research require the advance purchase of online tickets for the "debut" and also offers "advance previews" of the show?

It doesn't just show humans, either. It makes a comparison between the bodies of horses and camels to that of humans.
Gee, that makes me feel so much better about it.....knowing that the organisers of the exhibit are treating the remains of human beings like dead animal meat....Should we start eating them too?

There would be no medical nor educational purpose by leaving bodies in a coffin with their skin on to "preserve the dignity of God's creation."
You're preaching to the choir. I've already stated that I myself have dissected and studied human corpses in the name of Science. What I'm saying is that this exhibit is pseudo-science.

Frankly, this is a non-issue to me. They were not Orthodox,and nobody has any solid proof they came from concentration camps.
And what difference would that make?
They were somebody's child, sombody's parent, somebody's aunt, somebody's uncle. They were loved human beings of infinite value. A mother nursed them at her breast. They loved, lived, struggled, said stupid things....and most important for us, Christ loved them so much that he descended to earth, suffered, died and rose for them.
Do you realise that as an Orthodox Christian you cannot cremate anyone, no matter what their faith? Do you know that we have a special funeral service in the Orthodox Church for those of other Faiths when there is no one else to bury them? And if there is no one to pay for the burial plot, the Church must pay for it? We are not simply instructed to respect the bodies of our own dead, but all human bodies. Even the secular University where I studied anatomy would drape the body parts of the cadavers we were not working on.

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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2007, 07:45:09 AM »

I think it's strange how some people will deny someone else burial because they weren't of the same religion, but will then turn around and get all in a huff if you don't respect the dead as human beings. "We sure wouldn't let someone like you lay next to our dead! You never converted to [insert religion here]! But you can be sure we'll defend your posthumous right to be worm food in some cemetary, rather than being used as a teaching tool." Worse case scenario, pseudo-science is better than bad religion.
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2007, 07:55:10 AM »

Worse case scenario, pseudo-science is better than bad religion.
How? Since they both promote untruths?
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2007, 08:03:16 AM »

Because Pseudo-science, in this particular case, can still help people, whether you want to admit it or not. It may not be "real science" according to George, but it could still inspire someone, or teach someone. As far as it being real, it may very well be that some person (or some child) would be much more intrigued by the real deal, rather than a "fake" model. Bad religion is going to promote bad beliefs or practices, which will stand in direct opposition to the science you are trying to defend. If all people had used your logic (and that of others on this thread) about respect for the human body, medicine would be generations behind what it is today. You can do a post hoc rationalization for chopping up cadavers for medical research, but you can't do the same with something like this (though if it's normal practice in 100 years, you will).
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2007, 08:08:01 AM »

You can do a post hoc rationalization for chopping up cadavers for medical research, but you can't do the same with something like this (though if it's normal practice in 100 years, you will).
See post #26, and when you decide to address the issues I raised, and the objection I have to this exhibit precisely because it is NOT science, get back to me.....
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2007, 09:15:37 AM »

What has that got to do with anything? How does opening an exhibit to the public make it "science"? Science is research and the search for facts- are you telling me that everyone who goes to this exhibit is there for research purposes? At best you could say it is an attempt to "educate", but there is no way it is "science".

Then by your definition, use of cadavers in medical school should be unacceptable. Since it is essentially a trade school they are generally not being used for research, but rather for simple education. While I certainly understand the distinction between education and research, I really dont know how you can say tht only the latter is science, for it is dependent on the former.

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Since when does "science" advertise like the website of this exhibit? Since when does scientific medical research require the advance purchase of online tickets for the "debut" and also offers "advance previews" of the show?

In the end, it's still much cheaper than a university course...and you know how universities advertise.

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Gee, that makes me feel so much better about it.....knowing that the organisers of the exhibit are treating the remains of human beings like dead animal meat....Should we start eating them too?

It seems quite reasonable that our bodies would be compared to those of our evolutionary cousins.

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You're preaching to the choir. I've already stated that I myself have dissected and studied human corpses in the name of Science. What I'm saying is that this exhibit is pseudo-science.

And what makes this educational exhibit a pseudo-science? The simple fact that it is marked to the public rather than the academic elite?
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2007, 08:38:07 PM »

They were not Orthodox....

So what.  Oh, they weren't Orthodox.  So it's perfectly okay to desecrate bodies of non-Orthodox people?  Last I checked, it seemed that God loved all people, not just Orthodox people. 

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....and nobody has any solid proof they came from concentration camps.

Right.  Well, since there's no solid proof, let's just continue to enjoy this exhibit.  We'll wait until solid proof emerges to feel some disquiet or uneasiness about the whole thing.

The whole thing's a non-issue to you?  Perhaps you are too close to the whole field of medical science to be able to step back and just look at this issue dispassionately.  Or perhaps you have not seen exhibits like this one that are not as tame as this one?  Or perhaps you aren't aware that the human body is just as much a part of the person as the human spirit and mind, and thus just as holy, and to be treated witht the same level of respect?  This is what our Orthodox faith teaches us.  Why do we keep relics of the saints? Why do we kiss the body of the departed person at a funeral? 

The exhibit in Detroit seems much tamer and more science-oriented than the ones orchestrated through Gunther von Hagens:

http://www.bodyworlds.com/index.html

So the body on this site that's shown posing in a mid-air skateboard trick is not there for people to gawk at?  The ones on the plastinated horse are also not there for the public to ogle?  It's all for science?  People have to pay to get into these well-organised exhibits.  And when they enter it, they will want their money's worth.  I hope the basketball playing, frisbee tossing, skateboard riding corpses give them the experience they wanted.  Funny thing, I wonder if the corpses displayed in such a way ever did any of the activities in life that von Hagens has them posed as "doing" in these shows?   


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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2007, 10:44:37 PM »

I don't think that this is really any different than any museum that has the bodies of Mummified Egyptian Kings on display. Is it wrong for mummified bodies to be on display? Further, humans have an internal propensity to question and want to seek more knowledge. I've gone to the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry and I learn something new all the time. They have a human exhibit on display there too. I found it very educational to find out exactly what gets infected when I get strep Throat or Sinus Infections 4 or 5 times a year. Or how my respiratory system works and how the blood flows through my body.  Further, as far as donating organs for science, what better cause can your organs go for than to save the life of another human being? One of our brothers? It is one of the greatest gifts one can give to their brother. What if you get killed in a car crash and a little child gets your heart and is able to live 80 or 90 years? Isn't that a noble cause? Displaying the human remains does not in my opinion, cause any kind of moral or religious indignation on my part.

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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2007, 09:00:39 AM »

It seems quite reasonable that our bodies would be compared to those of our evolutionary cousins.
So should we eat them the way we eat our evolutionary cousins?
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2007, 09:44:49 AM »

So should we eat them the way we eat our evolutionary cousins?

Some peoples have, but my cultural experience would lead me to be uncomfortable with the situation. Fortunately my cultural experience gives no qualms about using the human body for scientific purposes...or at least doesn't any more. So I'm not going to be trying to roast you for dinner in the near future george, but neither can I fully condemn those cultures who once practiced cannibalism; furthermore, if I recall properl cannibalism is a traditional charge against the Christians, perhaps we have more in common with these peoples than we'd like to admit.
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2007, 09:59:30 AM »

Fortunately my cultural experience gives no qualms about using the human body for scientific purposes.
You've yet to prove this exhibit constitutes "scientific purposes". Implying I'm an intellectual snob does not constitute proof. Wink
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2007, 04:28:38 PM »

You've yet to prove this exhibit constitutes "scientific purposes". Implying I'm an intellectual snob does not constitute proof. Wink

You've yet to prove that this doesn't constitute "scientific purposes" of educating.

God bless.

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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2007, 09:39:11 PM »

I agree with Mina.

I still don't see why people are going completely insane over the fact that several Chinese bodies were used  for scientific purposes. And yes, it WAS scientific. "But you have to pay money!!" Well, guess what? You have to pay money to be apart of a church community, too. Nor is it free to take college classes and dissect human cadavers. Big deal, so we pay money to see an exhibit on human anatomy. If you don't like it, DON'T GO.
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« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2007, 02:35:04 AM »

Interesting thread/discussion.

I go to a school where we dissect human cadavers. And in order for there to be a cadavers, the person donating his or her body had to do A LOT of paper work and sign consent forms. There are numerous agencies you must go through, and it is not an easy thing.

I personally have a lot of respect for people who willfully donate their body to medical education. We need to have cadavers in order to fully learn how muscles and bones interact. For example, there have been times when I pulled on a certain muscle and it produces only a slight movement in a place where I would least expect it. Then after pulling several different muscles, I see that there needs to be one muscle pulling and another giving way at the same time in order to move a ceratin joint. You cannot see that in a plastination - though plastinations are useful because you can carry them around with you in class when need be.

You would be right to assume that by the end of the year, the cadavers were mostly dissected and destroyed because almost every single part of the body is examined. Everything was in millions and millions of pieces, as students spend hours upon hours each night going over the body and its parts.

At the end of the day, I don't have the courage to donate my body to medical research/science etc.

This all being said, I think there needs to be upfront showing that the bodies that were aquired for this exhibit have proper documentation. That is; those bodies should each have informed consent documents showing that the people willfully donated their bodies to this project - and were not dug up and stolen from the grave, or thier families were paid off to sell their dead relative's corpse.

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« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2007, 02:49:03 AM »

I still don't see why people are going completely insane over the fact that several Chinese bodies were used  for scientific purposes. And yes, it WAS scientific. "But you have to pay money!!" Well, guess what? You have to pay money to be apart of a church community, too. Nor is it free to take college classes and dissect human cadavers. Big deal, so we pay money to see an exhibit on human anatomy. If you don't like it, DON'T GO.

Did you even READ my post?   Huh  I give up.  That's not the focus of my argument, that you have to pay money.   Angry  You have heard of the incarnation, right?  How Christ became flesh, and thus made the human body holy?  Honestly, this is pointless.  I am not opposed to anatomy students using cadavers to learn about the human body.  I am, and others beside me are, disgusted by the offhand way the body is treated as if it's just a thing, if not at this exhibit in Detroit, then certainly at the ones I provided links to that are presently being held in Vancouver and Dallas. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 02:51:43 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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