OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 01, 2014, 10:04:43 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Purges in the Antiochian Archdiocese  (Read 17371 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
BasilCan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 204


« on: December 24, 2006, 12:03:55 AM »

It appears that there are purges again against conservative and traditional clergy in the Antiochian archdiocese. Can anyone give me a reason why, Fr. Issac Henke was ex-communicated and Fr. Basil Hartung laicized? I knew of both priests and found them to be very good - traditional without being fanactical.

I had thought the Antiochians were "lightening up a bit" but I guess this is confirmation of why I now attend an OCA parish.

The upset

Basil
Logged
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2006, 12:05:46 AM »

The deposition and excommunication of Fr. Isaac appeared in the latest edition of the Word.
Logged
BasilCan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 204


« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2006, 12:22:29 AM »

Yes, I saw that on-line, but the question is why. What did these priests do that was so terrible to be ex-communicated (a very serious offence) and laicized?

Basil
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,394



« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2006, 01:13:25 AM »

According to various sites both official and other, an Isaac Henke has joined ROAC and is a priest in that group.  Is leaving a jurisdiction without permission/a blessing an excomminicatable offense?

If a cleric decides to leave one might think that his pervious Church is not having a "purge" but dealing with someone who is, ummm A.W.O.L? 

Ebor
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 01:15:02 AM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2006, 01:27:17 AM »

Fr Basil was laicized?!
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,411


« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2006, 02:01:22 AM »

Fr Basil was laicized?!

Final decision pending in about a week.
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,411


« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2006, 02:03:35 AM »

Yes, I saw that on-line, but the question is why. What did these priests do that was so terrible to be ex-communicated (a very serious offence) and laicized?

Basil

Btw, I have no idea.  I actually just heard exactly what you stated...from someone very close to him.  We're all waiting for the decision and curious as to 'why'.  Prayers please.
Logged
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,789



« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2006, 07:42:11 AM »

What is ROAC?

Thomas
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,394



« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2006, 11:40:54 AM »

What is ROAC?

Thomas

"Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church".  It has a small presence in the US and a somewhat, umm, contentious history with some break-off groups. One former part of it was the group under "Gregory of Colorado", Dormition Skete. (This group is now calling itself the "Genuine Orthodox Church in America). \

The leader of ROAC is "Metropolitan Valentine of Suzdal and Vladimir" in Russia.

Ebor
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 11:47:43 AM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2006, 01:13:16 PM »

What is ROAC?

Thomas

that's the Church Deacon Nikolai, a former admin of this site, is a member of.
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2006, 01:35:45 PM »

According to various sites both official and other, an Isaac Henke has joined ROAC and is a priest in that group.  Is leaving a jurisdiction without permission/a blessing an excomminicatable offense?

If a cleric decides to leave one might think that his pervious Church is not having a "purge" but dealing with someone who is, ummm A.W.O.L? 

Theoretically he could be anathematized for doing so, but technically should not be excommunicated. Canonically you can only be disciplined once for an action, deposition and excommunication are two actions. If, indeed, he was deposed AND excommunicated him, as was suggested, there is a problem and the excommunication is contrary to canon law (the customary procedure throughout most the history of the Church was to depose before excommunicating, otherwise you have the problem of excommunicated, but valid and legitimate, priests...not an issue one usually wants to deal with, though it has happens at times).

Technically, if they don't anathematize him, which I seriously doubt would happen, I don't think one has been issued since the mid 19th Century, they can only depose him. He can then, as a layman, be told to return to the Church, if he fails, and hence commits a second offence, this time as a layman, he can be excommunicated. (Or, alternatively, he could be excommunicated and forbidden from serving as a priest, and if he does so, he could be deposed for that offence)

These procedural issues are Extremely important in canon and ecclesiastical law, I would be quite surprise if the Antiochian synod made such a mistake.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,394



« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2006, 01:48:49 PM »

Thank you for the information.

These procedural issues are Extremely important in canon and ecclesiastical law, I would be quite surprise if the Antiochian synod made such a mistake.

As would I be. The original post gives the impression that any actions taken by the Antiochians are, umm, suspect or tainted or evil.  Whereas, I would wonder whether the persons in question did things that were against their Synod. It's not *always*the case that the higher ups are the wrong-doers.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2006, 01:56:35 PM »

Thank you for the information.

As would I be. The original post gives the impression that any actions taken by the Antiochians are, umm, suspect or tainted or evil.  Whereas, I would wonder whether the persons in question did things that were against their Synod. It's not *always*the case that the higher ups are the wrong-doers.

Ebor

Oh, I'm just more concerned with procedure than the technicalities of 'right' and 'wrong' Grin

But seriously, I'm sure details will become available in time and I'm sure the synod has good reason...I just hope they get the procedural issues right.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2006, 02:07:38 PM »



These procedural issues are Extremely important in canon and ecclesiastical law, I would be quite surprise if the Antiochian synod made such a mistake.

You should be surprised then--Metropolitan Phillip has had some quite strange disciplinary practices over the years--such as "deposing someone until he repents" in the case of Ben Lomond, etc. This is far from the first example of such. However, it would probably be good if we don't start naming names and analyzing individual cases.
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2006, 02:18:24 PM »

However, it would probably be good if we don't start naming names and analyzing individual cases.

Canon/Ecclesiastical law without case studies? Yeah, it's technically possible since it's a civil law system...but not nearly as much fun.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2006, 02:32:44 PM »

Canon/Ecclesiastical law without case studies? Yeah, it's technically possible since it's a civil law system...but not nearly as much fun.

Oh I would love to sit around and do it, but on an internet forum it probably is not a good idea Smiley
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
observer
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 546

Vivre die Raznitsa!


« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2006, 12:57:06 AM »

If a clergyman asks for a release to another jurisdiction and he is not immoral, corrupt, a mason or country western fan, then he can leave.  If releasing bishop refuses , then by default the receiving bishop can sign him up for duties.
Logged

Thou shalt not prefer one thing to another (Law of Liberalism)
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2006, 02:04:44 AM »

If a clergyman asks for a release to another jurisdiction and he is not immoral, corrupt, a mason or country western fan, then he can leave.  If releasing bishop refuses , then by default the receiving bishop can sign him up for duties.

Ummm...I don't think that's how it works, which canon are you referencing if you don't mind me asking?
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,579



« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2006, 03:00:34 AM »

Quote
If releasing bishop refuses , then by default the receiving bishop can sign him up for duties.

If only Gregory of Colorado had known this sooner! Grin
Logged

Problem: John finds a spider under his bed. John eats the spider. John gets sick to his stomach.

Question: Why did John get sick?
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,789



« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2006, 03:39:34 PM »

Isaac Henke's situation was one that has devloped over a period of time.  I note he was suspended as a priest July 12, 2005 over a year before he was deposed.

It is interesting to note that Issac Henke and his wife Jo were both excommunicated in December. 

He is now listed as a priest of The Church of Christ the Savior (ROAC on their website)in the same city he was serving at the time of his suspension. Without further evidence presented either by  Mr. Henke or the Antiochian  Synod,I would have to assume that there was a presumed or real threat posed by him to those he formerly pastored  perhaps that he might lead them to follow him into schism. If so , this would have been deemed enough for the Synod to take the action.  In view that the Antiochian Orthodox Church views ROAC as a schismatic church, the synod may have felt the excommunication was necessary to remedy the situation and protect the laity he formerly served.

Thomas
« Last Edit: December 26, 2006, 06:02:01 PM by Thomas » Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2006, 05:52:43 PM »

FYI: of the the ten priests that left during the Ben Lomond debacle...one left Orthodoxy and became an RC and one past away. And recently two returned to the Antiochian Archdiocese. One of those who returned ran the school of St. Lawrence Church (Jerusalem Pat.) and the other handled the finances for the parish. They returned to Bishop JOSEPH and repented. They are no longer priests but they felt their salvation would be found by returning to the Antiochian Archdiocese. A deacon also returned at the same time. I do not know why they left St. Lawrence parish but perhaps the grass isn't always greener on the other side. My sense is something is not going well for this parish if two of the main priests were willing to give up community and career to humbly return back as laymen in our archdiocese.

Another former Antiochian priest, who was a so called "traditionalist," has now made the rounds in all of the jurisdictions (GOA, OCA, and now the ROCOR). While in  our archdiocese this charismatic clergyman embezzeled money from the parishioners he brought to Orthodoxy. He also caused alot of spiritual pain to many of these parishioners with his harsh spiritual penances. He was thrown out for his refusal to obey the authority of the bishop. I think some former Protestants have a hard time with submitting to the authority of the bishop. Bishop JOSEPH is a tonsured monk so I trust he knows what he is doing with some of these so-called "traditionalists" who refuse to obey his authority. He will not allow these men to harm the sheep he loves dearly.
Logged
BasilCan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 204


« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2006, 12:22:08 AM »

All bishops are supposed to be monks, but in the Antiochian Archdiocese, only Bishop BASIL is a little schema monk (or for that matter tries to live as a monk). Having said that, regardless of whether one is a focused monk or not, it doesn't necessarily mean they know about traditionalists or not.

As one person privately emailed me, the problem with the Antiochians has been that while Met PHILIP has been very generous in ordaining convert clergy (and non-convert as well) he often is very "passive aggressive" with them. That is, they are often left on their own to fend for themselves. If anything, proper Orthodox liturgics and praxis has never been seen as important for Met. PHILIP (it is interesting to note, that until Bishop BASIL printed the Liturgikon the extent of Antiochian liturgical services where found in the abridged Service Book and the Evening Divine Liturgy books, proper weekday vespers, for instance, where never done. Until a few years ago, students at the St. Stephen's course, most of them convert, were often scandalized that meat was served as a primary dish everday, including Wednesdays and Fridays and even on the beheading of John the Baptist )

So called "traditionalist" Antiochian clergy often find they live a schizophrenic liturgical life. They follow "traditionalist practices" and wear a cassock when the Bishop or Metropolitan isn't around and then revert to the abridged services and clerical collar when they are. Several have said, that if they were allowed to serve and live as clergy do in Syrian and Lebanon (which as one ex-Antiochian priest, now with the Greeks says, is basically the services one finds in the Liturgikon or the Arabic Service books) and dresses like they do there (cassock) with the option to serve as a more "modern" Antiochian (like Met. Philip), they would be happy. Instead, some of them become Athonite monastics and go off the deep end. (They don't even have an Antiochian monastery to go to to learn Antiochian monasticism, because Met. PHILIP won't allow one to be built!)

Back to my "passive aggressive statement"... so, if a priest keeps a low profile, sends kids to camp, gets a few people to sign up for the Order of St. Ignatios. and "wears his collar" he is left on his own. If on the other hand, he is caught being "traditionalist" in public or encouraging his people to live a proper Orthodox life, he can be in big trouble.  There is no sense of discussion with Met. PHILP - it is his way or the highway.

The Antiochians may be the group most open to converts, but it is still run by a country club of Arab Americans who are religiously "Byzantine Anglicans" (note Met. PHILIP'S suits and red buttons are the same that Anglican Bishops wear). They are lost in the 1950's and 1960's when America was considered "Christian" and to make it was to become Episcopalian.  One just has to look at the list of senior bishops (Antoun) and priests, as well as the board of directors to see what I mean. So, when this club is threatened, by what they see as out of date religiousocity, they just get rid of people, with no thought or discussion.

Anyways, back to my question, Fr. Basil has been laiczed as noted on the LA diocese website. Any publically known reason why this occured?

Basil
Logged
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2006, 04:06:22 AM »

I never said our archdiocese or our bishops were perfect...are any of them perfect? I believe one bishop died of AIDS in one of the big three archdioceses in the last few years (the practicing homosexual network that can become a real threat to the entire ethical structure at the hierarchial level). So every archdiocese has its own problems they have to deal with...I don't understand why so much animosity is being directed at the Antiochians. I do know our archdiocese is growing so I take that growth as a sign God is blessing us.

As far as the liturgical services, things are improving...and if Bishop JOSEPH or Bishop BASIL end up one day becoming metropolitan I am very sure we will have Antiochian monasteries. My personal belief is one of these two men will be the next metropolitan. My godfather (one of those so-called country-club Arab-Americans you seem to have contempt for) was at one time a member of the board of trustees for the AOC. He confirmed my opinion about our next metropolitan. From what he has heard he felt those two were the favored choices among the leaders of the archdiocese. Just remember...if wasn't for men like my godfather there would be no Antiochian Archdiocese. They may not have understood what the correct typicon is or the difference between western and Byzantine icons but they do have a deep love for the Church. They supported Metropolitan PHILIP when he was the ONLY bishop willing to take in the EOC. And even in their old age men like my godfather are still supporting the archdiocese with their money, time and love.

I don't know about the traditionalist priests you speak of who live a schizophrenic liturgical life but I do know we have had some convert priests who have had some severe control issues over their flock because I have heard it from the people. As one convert said,"We didn't know. We thought we were following correct Orthodox teaching when we submitted our will to the priest." I have heard a lot of painful stories from converts.

In regard to Fr. Basil...I do not know him and I do not know why he was laicized.
Logged
observer
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 546

Vivre die Raznitsa!


« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2006, 02:20:14 PM »

<.....which canon are you referencing if you don't mind me asking?>
I don't know which canons since I am not a bishop and don't have the cheek, I mean authority to quote them.  The release or not release issue was stated by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna and Fort Jones.
Logged

Thou shalt not prefer one thing to another (Law of Liberalism)
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2006, 03:29:55 PM »

Quote
I don't know which canons since I am not a bishop and don't have the cheek, I mean authority to quote them.  The release or not release issue was stated by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna and Fort Jones.

Think about this logically.  Why would an Antiochian bishop have to release a priest to a jurisdiction that thinks the Antiochians are graceless heretics?  Releasing a priest to ROAC by an Orthodox jurisdiction would be no more logical than giving a priest a canonical release to join the Roman Catholics or Anglicans.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,579



« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2006, 05:11:53 PM »

Quote
I don't know which canons since I am not a bishop and don't have the cheek, I mean authority to quote them.

Then perhaps you do not have the cheek, I mean authority to give summaries of non-existent canons?  Wink
Logged

Problem: John finds a spider under his bed. John eats the spider. John gets sick to his stomach.

Question: Why did John get sick?
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2006, 05:33:18 PM »

I find some of what  I read disturbing. I no longer attend an AOC parish, but it explains to some extent why the priest acted the way he did. I always got the impression that he viewed the parish (his church) like a business enterprise. Pressure from above maybe?
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,789



« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2006, 07:49:58 PM »

Many churches in America use "sound business principles" in assuring that the parish budget is balanced, the priest is paid, the electricity is on, and the church building is built/well maintained.  Sadly when a church is in the midst of growth as the Antiochian Church is, often the business of assuring the bills are paid seems to take the lead point in much of the activity and even the sermons of the church.  Many parish councils are led by good and successful business people who try to parry their knowledge or "talent" into growth an stability for the Church. Isn't that what many of us want?

That being said, we are hearing of some embezzellments, misuse of funds by parishes and leaders.  Do we want Check and balances or does that make the Church too much like a business? it is interesting to note that the system for checks and balances that the OCA is only now trying to initiate have been in place for years under Metropolitan Philip's administration in his own efforts to assure credible management of church funds. Isn't that what we want?

 I know as my own parish is striving to build a Temple from the house church we are currently in, I have noticed pressure being placed on the priest to assure the business end of the church is met. Luckily our pastor has turned it into a lesson in stewardship and evangelism and not a call for constant handouts. He has made it a call for growth in the church and its expansion of its evangelical witness of the Holy Orthodox Faith. I guess how it is handled depends a lot on the priest and his ability to pastor rather than just be a CEO. I know that is what I want.

Thomas
« Last Edit: December 26, 2006, 07:52:33 PM by Thomas » Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2006, 04:44:52 AM »

Thomas

Well balanced and fair reply. I just wish that the Priest could be freed to be more of a Pastor, but then that brings in a whole host of other necessary abilities which a priest may or may not have.
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2006, 01:12:08 PM »

Dan,

You bring up a very good point. It is very important for the priest to have time to pastor (catechize catechumens properly, prepare for the services, have time to visit the ill and elderly, etc.). If he is bogged down with budgets and administration duties he will not have time to minister to the people. This is why I have come to realize how important lay leaders are in a parish. And by lay leaders I mean those who are committed to Christ and to serving the church. It also helps if the lay leaders are well versed in Orthodox theology and are practicing the faith.

It also is important to remember every priest has his gifts...some are excellent administrators, others are very good at ministering to the parish, some are visionaries, etc. We have to be willing to work with the priest as lay leaders and fill in the gaps. Also, we should never forget the importance of our deacons. The deacons in our parish can help minister to the bedridden or those who are in hospitals too. Every parish community is different but we are all a part of the royal priesthood. We should be willing to serve our community using the talents we have been given. If we do this we will experience the synergy between the priesthood and the laity. Then of course, the bishop is a part of this synergy. When he visits he comes to make sure his flock is being well cared for and that his priests are treated properly. And as the head priest he can also exhort us to do things differently or to give us specific tasks. If we ignore his fatherly advice or fail to do what he has asked then we are in rebellion to his authority and behaving as protestants.
Logged
BasilCan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 204


« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2006, 08:24:08 PM »

Tamara,

You have brought up some very good points.
Thank you. If the "arabs" weren't so welcoming, I probably wouldn't have eventually ended up Orthodox. Which begs the questions, is it generally felt the the acceptance of the Evangelical Orthodox Church (EOC) in 1987 basically opened up the movement of converts to the Orthodox Church? While there had been an increasing trickle of converts before then, do people fell it would have taken off as it has, if the EOC had never been received?

Basil
Logged
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2006, 09:08:26 PM »

When the AOC opened up the gates to the EOC in 1987 it was front page news on Christianity Today magazine. I remember feeling a twinge of jealousy for at the time I was not a practicing Orthodox and also felt that this was not right. Conversely, I can point to that time as an awakening for me because I then began my long trek back to Orthodoxy which culminated in 2002.  (I know, I'm slow)

But now that I'm inside the ark of Orthodoxy I have mixed feelings again. My main concern is proper catechesis of Orthodox so as to avoid any mis-applications of Orthodoxy, if you will.
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2006, 09:23:28 PM »

Hi Basil,

You are correct when you stated that we had a trickle of converts before the EOC was received but I honestly do not think we would have had the number of converts we have now without the EOC entry into our archdiocese. We cradles have forgotten how to evangelize and were never taught how to bring others in. My own personal feeling is the EOC was a blessing given to us by the Holy Spirit. And yes, we may not have been prepared for them and we may not have understood our faith to the fullest either when they entered. But if you could see all the changes that have occurred from my vantage point you would be very happy...even with the problems that have cropped up here and there. In fact, I would even say the piety of those who entered our archdiocese has spurred a renewal of interest  and a hunger to want to learn more about our faith among us Arab cradles. You all are a blessing to us...and I mean that from the bottom of my heart  :'(.
The problems you mentioned are real and hopefully in time we can solve them. I guess we just were not prepared but the Holy Spirit brought you all in anyway...having more bishops should help but there will be problems because with the bishops comes a certain amount of discipline and maybe many isolated communities had too much freedom in the beginning.

in Christ, Tamara
Logged
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2006, 10:49:42 AM »

Well look on the bright side. Better converts to Orthodoxy than cradle converts to Protestantism or any other 'ism for that matter
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,411


« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2007, 06:36:15 PM »

***bump***

Anyone know anything more as to the "why"?  My friends haven't gotten back to me and they may end up being hush hush. 
Logged
BasilCan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 204


« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2007, 07:11:40 PM »

Yes, it would be good to know. Someone has told me that it may involve Fr. Basil's failure to move. When a priest becomes "troublesome" for the Antiochians (which can be a variety of issues) one form of discipline is to relocate the priest to another parish, often not as "good" as the one he was in (this happened to Fr. Isaac Henke). If the priest says quite clearly he "will not go" he is often given the option to "move or be laicized."   Basically, it is like being fired by your company for failure to move to the head office. The difference is, you can still get a job with a competitor. Being laicized means you cannot be a priest in another jurisdiction which seems awfully vengeful.

Basil
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,411


« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2007, 10:04:00 PM »

Basil,
On one hand I agree, being "laicized" sounds harsh.  What about a temporary suspension and then final decision?  Of course we don't know all the info.  On the otherhand, priests must be obedient to their bishop, even if said bishop is in the wrong (how to prove or show this though).  He should have seen the handwriting on the wall and tried to get transferred or whatever. 
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2007, 10:41:41 PM »

The idea that a priest has to be obedient no matter what to a bishop is a bit of a stretch, and laicizing someone for refusing to move is probably not canonical (there are very clear ways to deal with disobedient priests).  I am not for or against Fr Isaac as I do not know him or anything about him.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
BasilCan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 204


« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2007, 10:43:40 PM »

The Antiochian solution has been, in the past, to move priests when they get complaints. Unlike a business, it is not like the Bishop can come down and spend a few weeks and sort things out. For lots of reasons, this is inpractical.

Maybe it is an arab thing, but you can't say "NO" to an Antiochian bishop. You have to have a good reason. Since the Orthodox don't seem to like to allow priests "sitting around" (like many protestant groups do - how many of us have met Episcopal or Baptist clergy who are teachers or businessmen, who are still ordained but not attached to any parish!) they laicize them. A better solution would be to suspend them. But, hey I'm just a layman.

Basil
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2007, 11:53:07 PM »

A trusted Antiochian priest source informs me that there is more to the story with Fr Basil.  I will not be repeating it so don't bother asking.  If true, his deposition would be deserved.

Anastasios
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 11:53:23 PM by Anastasios » Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2007, 12:36:34 AM »

The Antiochian solution has been, in the past, to move priests when they get complaints. Unlike a business, it is not like the Bishop can come down and spend a few weeks and sort things out. For lots of reasons, this is inpractical.

Maybe it is an arab thing, but you can't say "NO" to an Antiochian bishop. You have to have a good reason. Since the Orthodox don't seem to like to allow priests "sitting around" (like many protestant groups do - how many of us have met Episcopal or Baptist clergy who are teachers or businessmen, who are still ordained but not attached to any parish!) they laicize them. A better solution would be to suspend them. But, hey I'm just a layman.

Basil

Basil,

You are correct...many Arab bishops are tough. Part of it is cultural...even Arab laymen and women are not shrinking violets. Maybe some of the convert priests do not know how to read the bishops. Bishop J. is very direct. When I offered up some ideas to him about the diocese retreat he had no problem telling me "no" if he didn't like my idea. He is very concerned about who I select as a speaker. I must get his blessing for any choices I offer up and he if wants someone in particular to be our speaker I have to ask his choice first. He even told me,"Tumrah, next year you will select a priest as a speaker and then the following year you will select a monastic. You will alternate each year between the two."
But he is not fooled by laymen who may slander a priest just to be rid of the clergyman. We had two parishes in the bay area in which the laymen wanted to have their priests removed. Most of their complaints were either lies or pettiness. The bishop realized what was going on and told the people they must be obedient to their priest.
If he removes a priest then it must mean something serious happened or the spiritual welfare of his flock was somehow endangered by the priest.
For all of his strictness our bishop loves us very much. But then I know this because I understand the Arab mentality.
Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2007, 12:55:37 AM »

Aserb
were you an evangelical in the 80's?
Logged
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2007, 01:03:10 AM »

BrotherAidan

To answer your question. Yes. I moved though from a charasmatic fellwoship to a non-charismatic fellowship. In essence, it was probably my first move toward Orthodoxy. I took it in small steps. I was seeking at the time a more reformed Protestant tradition. I note on your profile that you are from Pennsylvania. Where is PA?
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2007, 01:14:37 AM »

BroAidan

Where in PA?

Sorry.

But while we're on the topic of the church acting like the mafia.Think a minute. The mafia originated in a Mediterranean culture. Sicily. Sicily was influenced heavily by other Mediterranean cultures (i.e Greece, Arab culture, etc.)  In the mob you have a Godfather who rules at will. So to some extent is a Patriarch any different.  When I was young the priest in the SOC parishes that I attended caome from the former Yugoslavia. The boon of contention that they often encountered was that they were use to being the absolute ruler back in the old country. In America, most American born Serbs had become accustomed to democracy and autocratic rulers were not what they bargained for. (I can go on about how you cannot impose democracy in cultures that have a history of autocrates but this would fall into politics.)

Thoughts
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2007, 01:19:14 AM »

I think the dynamic you describe is exactly what is going on in the OCA and AO.
old world, old school hierarchs not quite in touch with the culture they are ministering in.

How in the heck did a Serbian Orthodox kid become a charasmatic?

I was a VERY Reformed, Calvinist, Presbyterian at one time

BTW, I live in Pittsburgh
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 01:30:04 AM by BrotherAidan » Logged
Tags: Shakedown Sunday Antiochian Patriarchate AOCA Metropolitan 
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.124 seconds with 72 queries.