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Author Topic: The body of man before his fall  (Read 1684 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: December 23, 2006, 08:48:53 PM »

Was man created incorruptible, as Eastern Orthodox theologians have traditionally maintained, or in corruption, subject to death and decay? It seems, based on the text of Genesis, that Adam's sin prevented him from receiving incorruption and immortality, not that he already had these things, given that when Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Life was forbidden to them, but they had not already tasted of its fruit.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 08:49:25 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2006, 10:45:57 PM »

I think it was more a matter of being sustained in an incorrupt state, not having been given incorruption as a gift in itself (like the gift of reason). A&E were supposedly spiritually children, though pure; so their was both maturity and immaturity, depending on which way you look at it (you Christians insist on your paradoxes Wink ). According to some, Jesus would have came even if Adam had never fallen, because his work was about more than just the destructive force of sins and death, but was about establishing a bridge that would allow human beings to be deified (for all eternity). Some also argue that Jesus was the archetype on which Adam was based, so how could he not come to finish his tranforming work?
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2006, 02:31:23 AM »

The belief that man was created corruptible would be more compatible with the evolutionary understanding than that he was created incorruptible. It's interesting that St. Severus, among other early Christian writers, would contend that Adam was not created a perfect, immortal being.

Peace.
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2006, 01:40:27 PM »

The belief that man was created corruptible would be more compatible with the evolutionary understanding than that he was created incorruptible. It's interesting that St. Severus, among other early Christian writers, would contend that Adam was not created a perfect, immortal being.

Peace.

Dear Matthew,

I recommend you read St. Athanasius' "On the Incarnation."  In it, St. Athanasius puts up very clearly that all creation are created "impermanent" and corrupt.  Of all creation here on Earth, only special grace and mercy was given to man (humans) to be in communion with the Image of God, that is the Logos, so that they can live "in incorruption."  So naturally, we are corrupt, but in communion with God, we are incorruptible.

This implies that indeed there was death of other animals around even while Adam and Eve were in Paradise (called the Garden of Eden in the Bible) with God.

I had a discussion with EA about Julianism, and I think he explains very well the problem of Julianism was his belief that we were created incorruptible to begin with.  St. Severus clearly follows the doctrines followed by St. Athanasius.

The EO's I believe should also believe this as well.  St. Athanasius is our common father and holds such an authoratative value among all patristics that I may even consider his works in close importance with the Bible (C. S. Lewis also thought so himself).  I think Fr. John Romanides made it clear in one of the EO/OO dialogues about this belief where we shouldn't differ, that even the angels themselves are corruptible but live in incorruption in communion with God.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2006, 01:49:49 PM »

The belief that man was created corruptible would be more compatible with the evolutionary understanding than that he was created incorruptible. It's interesting that St. Severus, among other early Christian writers, would contend that Adam was not created a perfect, immortal being.

Peace.

Don't try to mix the physical and metaphysical realms, it just makes a mess of things, they are distinct and never the twain shall meet.
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2006, 01:52:24 PM »

Here's the discussion:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,6943.0.html

God bless.

Mina
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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2006, 09:03:07 PM »

Don't try to mix the physical and metaphysical realms, it just makes a mess of things, they are distinct and never the twain shall meet.

The incarnation itself, in God becoming man, is a mix of the physical and metaphysical realms. The most sacred and holy Eucharist, as both the consecrated bread and the flesh of Christ, is a mix of the metaphysical and physical realms. Are you not an Orthodox Christian? God makes no separation between the physical and the spiritual, Gnostics and materialists do.

I recommend you read St. Athanasius' "On the Incarnation." 

I'll have to look that up. Thank you.

Peace.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 09:04:55 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2006, 09:32:06 PM »

No need to look it up  Smiley

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm

God bless.

Mina
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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Matthew777
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2006, 09:36:01 PM »

I'm more of a book person.  Cool

Peace.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 09:36:13 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
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« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2006, 09:40:50 PM »

I'm more of a book person.  Cool

Peace.

Click on print... Cheesy
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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2006, 10:11:58 PM »

Quote
I'm more of a book person.

Lol, says the guy who seems to spend about 4 hours a night on internet discussion boards, and has posted 3,271 posts at this forum alone. Grin Come on man, bookmark it, read 20 minutes of it a day (just pretend that it's a post by some smart guy named Athanasius), and you'll be through it in a week.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 10:12:19 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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Hey, so I'm in a pop-alt-punk-folk-prog band called "Affable Dregs" and we have a new album coming out, titled "Vicious Turnips Always Taste Most Delicious." We'd really appreciate your support!
Matthew777
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2006, 10:14:05 PM »

Lol, says the guy who seems to spend about 4 hours a night on internet discussion boards, and has posted 3,271 posts at this forum alone.

I do spend about an hour reading every night before sleeping, sometimes two or three. Reading is fundamental!  Smiley
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 10:14:22 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
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