Author Topic: Minor OO-related questions  (Read 18890 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • "Mor has a huge ego"
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,759
  • Abp Yeznik Petrosian Defender of the Faith
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #180 on: April 22, 2016, 11:01:26 AM »
Lol no need to get all apologetic. It was just just a minor observation which I think even most of you would agree with.

Actually, no, I would not agree. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline kijabeboy03

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • "The glory of God is in man fully alive."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Church of China
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #181 on: April 23, 2016, 02:10:18 AM »
Does the Ethiopian church forbid smoking?

Just noticed this and yes, it was traditionally forbidden. (Something to do with the 'devil's smoke' versus the sweet smoke of incense in church, more likely because it would have come to the country from adjacent Muslim areas.)

Not sure what the Church's official line is now, but I'm just back from a visit to Ethiopia and the contrast between it and where I currently live in the PRC/China is staggering - I can't go out here without being exposed to cigarette smoke (in the elevator, on the street, in the entryways to stores, in every public bathroom I've used, in cafes, in restaurants, on the train, even inside schools :-/ ), whereas my whole time in Ethiopia I can count on one hand the number of people I saw smoking. It may not be banned anymore, but it's certainly not a big thing the way it is in some countries.
"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,775
  • Jurisdiction: Finnish Orhodox inside of Finland
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #182 on: April 24, 2016, 06:48:51 AM »
Thanks. I have a friend who's married to an Ethiopian and he once told me that his Ethiopian friends seems to frown upon smoking. I was a bit suprised to hear that and thought it might have some linkages to the Tewahedo church.

Btw, what do you mean by your jurisdiction? You've managed to find the still lingering Russian EOs from China?

But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline kijabeboy03

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • "The glory of God is in man fully alive."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Church of China
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #183 on: April 24, 2016, 10:16:07 AM »
Thanks. I have a friend who's married to an Ethiopian and he once told me that his Ethiopian friends seems to frown upon smoking. I was a bit suprised to hear that and thought it might have some linkages to the Tewahedo church.

Btw, what do you mean by your jurisdiction? You've managed to find the still lingering Russian EOs from China?

Yeah, the Church is very strict in Ethiopia (no doubt Eritrea too), often too strict in some cases :-/.

It means what it says - I belong to a parish of the Church of China (Moscow Patriarchate). There isn't a hierarchy at present, but there are still a handful of parishes in the northern PRC, a couple of Russian Embassy/Consulate parishes, and the parishes in Hong Kong and Taiwan, all directly under the patriarch of Moscow. My parish is under a Chinese priest and is about half Chinese, half foreign (mostly Russian-speaking).

No Ethiopian Orthodox parishes in China, alas, or I'd go to one of them instead :-). No offense to the 'new' (ex-Soviet) Russians or the Chinese, but they're not always the friendliest people in the world :-/.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 10:20:49 AM by kijabeboy03 »
"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,775
  • Jurisdiction: Finnish Orhodox inside of Finland
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #184 on: April 24, 2016, 10:53:17 AM »
Interesting. I thought that the Chinese church is long-dead by now. Glad to hear that it still exists at least on some level.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,897
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #185 on: April 24, 2016, 11:56:49 AM »
Interesting. I thought that the Chinese church is long-dead by now. Glad to hear that it still exists at least on some level.

They ordained their first priest since the cultural revolution a couple of years ago. Hopefully they can expand and get a bishop too.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline RaphaCam

  • Holy Martyr Mercurius
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,598
  • Please pray for my family and for myself
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #186 on: April 24, 2016, 01:54:10 PM »
Is there some theological reason for men depicted in Coptic icons often looking like Christ or is it just a fixed style?


Saint Mark:



Saint Stephen (I guess):



Martyrs of Libya:
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese). Last article: Como posso lidar com minha condição pecadora?

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,967
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #187 on: April 24, 2016, 03:14:28 PM »
It's a "neo-Coptic" design of Isaac Fanous.  I'm not sure why he does.  One can only speculate (perhaps we are all in the image of God?)
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,970
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #188 on: April 25, 2016, 03:11:18 AM »
I asked one of the most important disciples of Isaac Fanous, who was trained by him for many years. He says...

No, not all male faces should be the same. All faces, male and female are based on the same geometrical principles. There are those who, perhaps through lack of practice and/or lack of imagination, do repeat the same face. I have quite often seen it.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline kijabeboy03

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • "The glory of God is in man fully alive."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Church of China
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #189 on: April 25, 2016, 03:54:06 AM »
Interesting. I thought that the Chinese church is long-dead by now. Glad to hear that it still exists at least on some level.

They ordained their first priest since the cultural revolution a couple of years ago. Hopefully they can expand and get a bishop too.

Yes, the assistant priest in Hong Kong was the first. There is now a second, the rector of the parish in Harbin and I believe of one or two rural parishes in northeastern China. There are also rural or small city parishes in what is now northwestern China that have occasional services. Most (all?) of the existing parishes started to serve the White Russian Diaspora here, but are now mostly mixed. I think there are some ethnic Russians in the northwest who are Chinese citizens, but in most places any Russians attached to the parishes are expats (often women married to Chinese men) or students. Parishes can only legally function outside the embassies if they're Chinese-run - foreigners can attend, but they can't be involved in leadership. (Hence the push to get more Chinese men ordained, the government doesn't like Russian priests even just doing short pastoral visits to the ethnic Chinese parishes.)
"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

Offline RaphaCam

  • Holy Martyr Mercurius
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,598
  • Please pray for my family and for myself
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #190 on: May 06, 2016, 06:53:12 PM »
Language question: does the average church-going Copt or Syriac understand their liturgical languages? I'm aware both languages, though related, are completely different from Arabic, but I was wondering if life in church just lead the faithful to grasp them. Also, how often is Arabic used in mainland parishes?
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese). Last article: Como posso lidar com minha condição pecadora?

Offline Regnare

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 521
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #191 on: May 08, 2016, 10:28:42 PM »
Why do Coptic icons of bishops always show them vested like priests? For reference, I submit icons of St. Peter (I assume "the Fuller") of Alexandria, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Basil the Great, St. Athanasius the Apostolic, Ss. Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, & Peter of Sebastea, St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, and the Three Holy Hierarchs.
Every one of these is vested either as a priest-monk or (oddly) as a married priest. Was the turban worn by Coptic bishops nowadays a later invention?

Also, obligatory grumpiness about the lack of full traditional vesture.
"Whosoever you are who introduce new doctrines, I beseech you to spare the ears of Romans! Spare that faith which was commended by the voice of an Apostle. Why should you attempt to teach us, at the end of hundreds of years, that which we never heard before? Why bring forward what Peter and Paul did not will to make known? Until this day, the world was Christian without your doctrine. Thus, I hold as an old man onto that faith wherein I was regenerated as a boy." St. Jerome

Offline RaphaCam

  • Holy Martyr Mercurius
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,598
  • Please pray for my family and for myself
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #192 on: July 23, 2016, 08:59:42 PM »
I was talking to wgw about how atypical it seems to be that Brazil had at least two Syriac bishops without a drop of Arab (or Indian, duh) blood: Mor Basílio and Mor José Efrém (maybe our Mor Ephrem's Latino brother?). So out of mere curiosity: are there many cases of "non-ethnic" OO bishops that you guys know of?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 09:03:25 PM by RaphaCam »
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese). Last article: Como posso lidar com minha condição pecadora?

Offline Jonathan

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 931
    • St. Mary's Coptic Orthodox
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #193 on: July 23, 2016, 10:57:49 PM »
I was talking to wgw about how atypical it seems to be that Brazil had at least two Syriac bishops without a drop of Arab (or Indian, duh) blood: Mor Basílio and Mor José Efrém (maybe our Mor Ephrem's Latino brother?). So out of mere curiosity: are there many cases of "non-ethnic" OO bishops that you guys know of?

The two (now one) bishops of French Orthodox Church are part of the Coptic synod and French. The bishop of the British Orthodox Church was a member of the Coptic synod while being English, until he left. Anba Macarius is a member of the Coptic synod and is Eritrean.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,967
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #194 on: July 24, 2016, 01:11:30 AM »
I know this is late, but good for reference I suppose:

Language question: does the average church-going Copt or Syriac understand their liturgical languages? I'm aware both languages, though related, are completely different from Arabic, but I was wondering if life in church just lead the faithful to grasp them. Also, how often is Arabic used in mainland parishes?
Speaking for Copts...no!  Only very few you can count with your fingers would know conversational Coptic.  Others know it in a more academic sense, like Latin.

Also speaking for Copts, Arabic is used quite often in some parishes.  Other parishes are beginning to phase out Arabic into the vernacular.  It depends on who you serve. Parishes with high immigrant populations will split their parishes into Arabic and English liturgies to serve both Arab and American Copts if they have enough space and priests to do so.

Why do Coptic icons of bishops always show them vested like priests? For reference, I submit icons of St. Peter (I assume "the Fuller") of Alexandria, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Basil the Great, St. Athanasius the Apostolic, Ss. Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, & Peter of Sebastea, St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, and the Three Holy Hierarchs.
Every one of these is vested either as a priest-monk or (oddly) as a married priest. Was the turban worn by Coptic bishops nowadays a later invention?

Also, obligatory grumpiness about the lack of full traditional vesture.

That's Pope St. Peter, "seal of the martyrs" ("Heiromatyros"), who is venerated by all ancient churches (including EOs and RCs), and was the first to condemn Arius.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 01:14:46 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Holy Martyr Mercurius
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,598
  • Please pray for my family and for myself
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #195 on: July 25, 2016, 08:51:40 PM »
Oh, I had forgotten about Abba Seraphim!
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese). Last article: Como posso lidar com minha condição pecadora?

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,775
  • Jurisdiction: Finnish Orhodox inside of Finland
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #196 on: August 08, 2016, 03:21:15 PM »
Only very few you can count with your fingers would know conversational Coptic.

Huh? I thought it had died centuries ago as a vernacular. Are there still people who actually use it outside of prayer and patristics?
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,967
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #197 on: August 08, 2016, 03:45:05 PM »
Only very few you can count with your fingers would know conversational Coptic.

Huh? I thought it had died centuries ago as a vernacular. Are there still people who actually use it outside of prayer and patristics?

There are very few in the world who learn Coptic academically, but for zealous reasons of love of the language in association with the Orthodox faith, they try to revive it conversationally.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 03:45:20 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,775
  • Jurisdiction: Finnish Orhodox inside of Finland
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #198 on: August 08, 2016, 03:49:11 PM »
Cool. Hope they succeed in that. It's probably very marginal but there's some nerd in me who'd like to see revival of Coptic language. Just for the sake of the fact that ancient languages are cool.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 03:51:00 PM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,093
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #199 on: August 08, 2016, 03:53:38 PM »
Cool. Hope they succeed in that. It's probably very marginal but there's some nerd in me who'd like to see revival of Coptic language. Just for the sake of the fact that ancient languages are cool.
It worked with Hebrew, so why not?
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,775
  • Jurisdiction: Finnish Orhodox inside of Finland
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #200 on: August 08, 2016, 03:59:49 PM »
Israelis had state's support, IIRC predujice against non-Hebrew speaking Jews and they needed a common language. Copts already speak Arabic, their state was conquered by Muslims and assumingly nobody looks down upon those who don't speak Coptic. :P
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,967
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #201 on: August 08, 2016, 04:04:47 PM »
Also in addition to state sponsor, I think Hebrew is somewhat of a religious requirement of a language.  Technically, in Orthodoxy, there is no linguistic requirement of the faith other than the vernacular for evangelical purposes.  However, if we can lobby the Egyptian government to have Muslims pick up enough pride for their own ancestral Coptic heritage with us, perhaps it might help with a revival of sorts.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,775
  • Jurisdiction: Finnish Orhodox inside of Finland
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #202 on: August 08, 2016, 04:17:38 PM »
Also in addition to state sponsor, I think Hebrew is somewhat of a religious requirement of a language.  Technically, in Orthodoxy, there is no linguistic requirement of the faith other than the vernacular for evangelical purposes.

In theory wheras reality on the other hand... :)
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline RaphaCam

  • Holy Martyr Mercurius
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,598
  • Please pray for my family and for myself
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #203 on: August 08, 2016, 05:40:59 PM »
Not only state support and previous knowledge, Israelis really needed a common language. Most of them spoke Yiddish, but not all, and Yiddish was barely a written language. I mean, it already had books on it and a standard form, but it would only become a formal language as a community reaction to its being superposed by Hebrew.
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese). Last article: Como posso lidar com minha condição pecadora?