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Author Topic: Tridentine Masses in your areas?  (Read 4391 times) Average Rating: 0
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scamandrius
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« on: December 23, 2006, 02:14:17 PM »

Hi, everyone!

Christ is Born!  Glorify Him!

For our Roman Catholic friends, I'm really curious as to what places in the United States still celebrate Mass according to the Tridentine Rite (at least as found in the Missal of Pope John XXIII).  Please respond individually, or if there is a website (I've not found one) which cites where these are still celebrated, please post it here.  Many thanks.

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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2006, 02:21:15 PM »

Doesn't Una Voce or some similar organization have a directory on their website? 
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lubeltri
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2006, 02:35:59 PM »

This site lists indult masses using the 1962 missal with permission of the diocesan bishop:

http://web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm

This site, the Catholic counterpart to orthodoxinfo.com, lists all traditional masses, whether indult, SSPX, "independent," or from sedevacantist groups like SSPV and CMRI.
 
http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/masslat.pdf
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2006, 02:41:43 PM »

The FSSP site has links...

http://www.fssp.com/main/uscan.html

As for my area...good Cardinal Mahony has not replaced the retiring priest where the indult was celebrated...I understand that this is happening through out the US...


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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2006, 03:16:20 PM »

As for my area...good Cardinal Mahony has not replaced the retiring priest where the indult was celebrated...I understand that this is happening through out the US...

You can't just blame the bishops, the people don't want it either.
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2006, 03:29:14 PM »

This is a listing of the sedavacantists MCRI listings:
http://www.cmri.org/directry.htm

I attended the one in Santa Clarita on a midnight mass for Christmas. Very beautiful and traditional.
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2006, 04:55:29 PM »

You can't just blame the bishops, the people don't want it either.
Are you serious? The orthodox Catholics in my diocese are salivating at the idea of the Trindentine Liturgy being made more accessible.
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2006, 05:20:27 PM »

Quote
Are you serious? The orthodox Catholics in my diocese are salivating at the idea of the Trindentine Liturgy being made more accessible.

The new one in Phoenix has reasonable attendence, but it certainly isn't bursting at the seems.  IME, many traditional Catholics would be content with a more sacred approach to the Novus Ordo and see the Tridentine as sort of a dead end. 
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2006, 05:25:35 PM »

You're definitely right that the future is in a reformed Novus Ordo.
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2006, 05:29:12 PM »

When my wife became scandalized by certain practices in typical RC parishes (e.g., altar girls, charismatic services, etc.), she started going to the SSPX chapel Our Lady of Fatima in Carnegie (Pittsburgh) PA. However, she only attended there for about 5 months before she became a catechumen in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2006, 05:34:27 PM »

Arghhh, guess Cardinal Mahony's wish will come true...all the old riter's will pass in time...there is no need for the indult.

At this time your liturgical dancers will perform to ... while the communion ministers bring forth the pitchers of wine & baskets of ... Tongue

james

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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2006, 05:35:28 PM »

You're definitely right that the future is in a reformed Novus Ordo.

What makes you think it will even be reformed in the first place?  I have seen nothing indicating such a concept, and it appears to me that the intent is to simply wait out any unrest.

Patrick
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2006, 06:17:00 PM »

Quote
At this time your liturgical dancers will perform to ... while the communion ministers bring forth the pitchers of wine & baskets of

I had ALMOST forgotten about pole dancers for Jesus liturgical dancers.  Those were a big hit at my parents' parish. 

Quote
You're definitely right that the future is in a reformed Novus Ordo.

I hope so.  I can't picture my generation en masse struggling for a rite in which they don't understand the language and with which they didn't gow up.  Furthermore, I think Vatican II did make some needed liturgical reforms: the use of the vernacular (when good translations are used) and greater lay liturgical involvement.  I get annoyed with people that cherry pick the 1950s and ignore the massive liturgical abuses like five minutes weekday masses, people having NO CLUE what was going on at mass and people coming to mass simply to do their private devotions.   
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2006, 06:23:03 PM »

I travel 4.5 hours to attend an SSPX chapel.

I believe its a mortal sin to participate in the local Novus Ordos wherein the entire congregation walks up to receive a wafer from deaconesses likes its nothing. "Youre an agnostic? Come on up! Here's a chip. Protestant? So are we!" The second to last NO service I attended the priest explained to us in his sermon, (one of the few times I have ever heard doctrine taught from the pulpit,) that the Father is the Father, the Son is the Mother, and the the Spirit is their Child. The last one I attended the priest walked up on the stage and said "Heeellloooo out there!!! I am Fr Pat. I'm doin real good tonight. blah blah blah." This introduction went on for 10 minutes. Then he made up the words for Mass as he went. This is not an isolated incident. But this was better than the parish I grew up in wherein the priest was a child molester.

For the most part - though there are exceptions - the Novus Ordo Sect is an apostate religion.
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2006, 06:40:51 PM »

Here's another site of officially approved Tridentine Masses:

http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2006, 07:32:05 PM »

I hope so.  I can't picture my generation en masse struggling for a rite in which they don't understand the language and with which they didn't gow up.  Furthermore, I think Vatican II did make some needed liturgical reforms: the use of the vernacular (when good translations are used) and greater lay liturgical involvement.  I get annoyed with people that cherry pick the 1950s and ignore the massive liturgical abuses like five minutes weekday masses, people having NO CLUE what was going on at mass and people coming to mass simply to do their private devotions.   

You are absolutely right.

Well, things are moving very slowly, but reform of the reform is ongoing. We have to admit that things are significantly better than 30 years ago. I think the presence of a liberated 1962 rite will improve the practice of the modern rite. It certainly helps that Rome is very much insistent on the reform of the reform. American bishops aren't dragging their feet as much as 20 years ago. It might take another generation, but I see a brighter future for a reformed modern rite.

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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2006, 07:47:00 PM »

Nonchal pretty much summed it up for me. The last Novus Ordo I was at the priest apologized for the catholic churches stance on homosexuality and not allowing women to be priests,then on pentecost sunday he informed us that the holy spirit was our mother and Jesus was our sister WOW. That was it for me, after that I floated around a sspx church for awhile before discovering Holy Orthodoxy. The society of st pius X chapel I went to had usually around 200-250 people there I actually counted before mass on several occasions out of curiosity and there were about 25 -35 or so that were older,(by that I mean they could remember the pre Vatican II church) then between 100-125 (some masses had more then others, some less) of people my age (25)and the rest were young families parents late 20's -late 30's with a lot of kids. I think personaly that the best thing to do is bring back the 1962 mass in the vernacular with some latin now and then (like the canon in latin). Personaly I think the reform of the reform is just putting lipstick on a pig no matter what is done with it it will at best just be a high church lutheran communion service.
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2006, 08:25:48 PM »

Hmmm...
Should the Orthodox be talking with the SSPX instead of the Pope?
Does the SSPX have communion with Pope Benedict?
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2006, 09:04:48 PM »

I have been going to masses all my life, and I have not once witnessed such extremes. I've even been to mass at a "gay" parish (John Kerry's---the Paulist Center in Boston. The NY Times describes it as "New Age"), but even the pastor of that church knew better than to outright deny Church teaching on homosexual sex during his homilies (like all liberal priests, he either ignored it or talked vaguely about "compassion"). Now, I'm sure such extremes exist (the Halloween mass, for example), but that's hardly the norm or even common.

There is not much wrong with the Novus Ordo if followed according to the rubrics. It is not invalid, and it CAN be done relatively well. I've seen it done well, and I've seen the benefits it can offer to the faithful when done well. The new translations and the greater orthodoxy of younger priests are going to further improve it. The reform of the reform will continue.

And this is from someone who carries a 1962 missal with me to mass at an indult parish every Sunday. I'm no heterodox modernist.

But I'm not going to become a Pharisee schismatic who thinks he's more Catholic than the pope.
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2006, 09:13:22 PM »

I think personaly that the best thing to do is bring back the 1962 mass in the vernacular with some latin now and then (like the canon in latin). Personaly I think the reform of the reform is just putting lipstick on a pig no matter what is done with it it will at best just be a high church lutheran communion service.

I have to, though somewhat reluctantly, agree.  The new Mass is a failure and the old liturgy was a treasure of the Church nobody had any right to trashcan.  Sure, I will concede based on what I have heard from those who lived during that era that there were abuses and things which needed updating.  It is good that there is real involvement by those in the pews.  I also think that the vernacular is good, though not for the entire liturgy.  But, we need to be honest, and admit that if we are going to reform the reform we would save time just starting over and just reforming the Tridentine Rite the way it should have been reformed in the first place.  Otherwise we are going to be working uphill trying to fix something which should never have been done by backtracking towards the rite which should never have been removed.

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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2006, 09:19:38 PM »

Hmmm...
Should the Orthodox be talking with the SSPX instead of the Pope?
Does the SSPX have communion with Pope Benedict?

They have an irregular canonical relationship to the pope. Their bishops were excommunicated in 1988, but in recent years Rome has said that the society is not in schism. SSPX does not deny the pope's authority nor the validity of the Second Vatican Council (though they maintain it was a pastoral council, not a doctrinal one). Negotiations continue. Several times both sides have come to the brink of an agreement. Rome is ready to offer the SSPX the status of a personal prelature (only Opus Dei has that distinction); it is also on the brink of liberalizing the 1962 missal (the one used by the SSPX).

SSPX condemns the openly schismatic and sedevacantist SSPV and CMRI. I would say, unfortunately, that there still is some schismatic spirit in the SSPX.

--

I would not count on dialogue between Orthodox churches and the SSPX. The SSPX is an enemy of ecumenism and considers Orthodoxy heretical and schismatic---though they aren't as angry and fanatical about it as, say, the Athonite monks are to Catholicism. The SSPX is very suspicious of Eastern Catholics, who they see as having not dropped all of their old Orthodox heresies like leaving out the filioque.
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« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2006, 09:23:47 PM »

I have to, though somewhat reluctantly, agree.  The new Mass is a failure and the old liturgy was a treasure of the Church nobody had any right to trashcan.  Sure, I will concede based on what I have heard from those who lived during that era that there were abuses and things which needed updating.  It is good that there is real involvement by those in the pews.  I also think that the vernacular is good, though not for the entire liturgy.  But, we need to be honest, and admit that if we are going to reform the reform we would save time just starting over and just reforming the Tridentine Rite the way it should have been reformed in the first place.  Otherwise we are going to be working uphill trying to fix something which should never have been done by backtracking towards the rite which should never have been removed.

That will never happen. Reform is going to have to be step-by-step. A church of over a billion people can't just turn the clock back to 1962 and start over again.
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« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2006, 09:26:35 PM »

And this is from someone who carries a 1962 missal with me to mass at an indult parish every Sunday. I'm no heterodox modernist.

But I'm not going to become a Pharisee schismatic who thinks he's more Catholic than the pope.

Well, I think the issue is a little more sensitive than this.  We don't have to suggest that the NO is invalid, and I don't btw.  We also don't have to deny that it can be done in a way that is not really offensive, as long as you forget the thoughtless and elitest way it was instituted in the first place.  And therein lies the rub.

And let me say that I am not going to an indult Mass such as you can as my diocese refuses to allow them.  I cannot even claim any experiences with the Tridentine rite, and have never been one to sit around complaining about the current Mass, so I am hardly a traditionalist fanatic.  But, right is right and wrong is wrong.  There was no concern at all about disrupting the faithful by throwing out fifteen hundred plus years of tradition.  Now, there is.  I just don't buy that.   I also don't think, regardless of how inoffensively the new Mass can be done, it will ever mean that it is a treasure of the Church.  It is a crude and simplistic modern creation pasted onto the Church life.  The old Mass, whether I like all of it or not, is a living gift of the fathers of our faith, and that just doesn't change.  Not a single word of it needed changed to reform it well.  The vernacular could have been used with that same rite.  Lay involvement could have been increased as well.  Nothing in the new Order of Mass actually changes those things, and the lay people can sit as uninvolved in a Mass today as they did in 1962.  And, as an aside regarding the five minute daily Masses mentioned by somebody above, my parish has ten minute daily Masses right now, so perhaps little has changed.

We in the Catholic Church have apologized for what we did to Galileo.  We have apologized to the Orthodox.  We have apologized to the Jews, and I don't recall that we ever did anything to them in the first place.  But, we cannot apparently be big enough to apologize to our own and repair the mistakes that were made, and give back to the Church the jewel of our liturgy that we had for almost two millenia.  For me, that will ultimately never really satisfy.

Patrick
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« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2006, 09:28:38 PM »

That will never happen. Reform is going to have to be step-by-step. A church of over a billion people can't just turn the clock back to 1962 and start over again.

I know that we won't, but honestly, why can't we?  We sure did it with the new Mass, and I constantly hear people saying that that is working just great.

Patrick
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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2006, 09:32:43 PM »

Hey, Patrick, I understand you totally. I share your frustration. Even Joseph Ratzinger was critical of how the new mass was constructed and promulgated.

I would have liked the reform to follow just what the Council documents called for. The mass needed some exfoliants, some botox, and a facelift, not extensive surgery.
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« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2006, 09:35:32 PM »

Hey, Patrick, I understand you totally. I share your frustration. Even Joseph Ratzinger was critical of how the new mass was constructed and promulgated.

I would have liked the reform to follow just what the Council documents called for. The mass needed some exfoliants, some botox, and a facelift, not extensive surgery.


Well said.  Unfortunately, nobody in the know felt that way forty years ago.

Patrick
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« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2006, 09:36:20 PM »

I know that we won't, but honestly, why can't we?  We sure did it with the new Mass, and I constantly hear people saying that that is working just great.

Patrick

At this point, such a drastic and sudden change might bring on a schism. There's significant resistance even to the motu proprio liberating the 1962 missal (which is why it has not been issued yet). Things will have to be done slowly, step by step. Benedict understands that, and he's working at it.
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« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2006, 11:53:43 PM »

At this point, such a drastic and sudden change might bring on a schism. There's significant resistance even to the motu proprio liberating the 1962 missal (which is why it has not been issued yet). Things will have to be done slowly, step by step. Benedict understands that, and he's working at it.

The post-Vatican-II "popes" are in schism from the SSPX and Sedevacantists. So at this point a schism within the Novus Ordo Sect doesnt much matter.
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« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2006, 12:07:31 AM »

We've already been over this. The SSPX is not in schism with Pope Benedict. Look at their website. Have you been to a SSPX mass? Who do they commemorate? Pope Benedict.

The SSPX call the sedevacantists schismatics. They rightly observe that "it is preposterous to say, as the sedevacantists do, that there has not been any Pope for more than 40 years, for this would destroy the visibility of the Church, and the very possibility of a canonical election of a future Pope."

Further:

"However, the real danger with the sedevacantists, over and above the question of their being formally schismatic, is that they fail to have a Catholic attitude. Their rash and excessive condemnatory attitude, not only towards the Pope and the modernists, but also towards Catholics simply trying to live their Catholic life, and other traditional Catholics, leads them to fall into rigorism, formalism and legalism, and to condemning everybody else. They easily fall into pharisaical pride. They are a real plague to the traditional movement here in the United States. Such people have no sense of obedience or submission, and often commit rash judgment."

. . .

"By stating that he has lost the Papacy, sedevacantists personally judge the Pope, as if they had authority over him. This is not Catholic, regardless of the gravity of his materially heretical actions. It is the Protestant principle of personal judgment which is thereby erected into a principle of Faith, thus destroying the visibility and hierarchy of the Church."

http://www.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__theological.htm#sedevacantistnoncatholic

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« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2006, 12:24:33 AM »

Thats the official SSPX position for ecumenism with Modernist Rome. There are a lot of closet sedevacantist priests in the SSPX. Though Lefebvre expelled some of them he thought about adopting this position too. In fact I can give several quotes where he doubted whether these are in fact real popes. The Good Archbishop went as far as to call the New Church a schismatic organization and said that one becomes a schismatic insofar as one associates himself with it. He said that he is in obedience to Eternal Rome and NOT to Modernist Rome.

There are much more sedevacantists priests in the SSPX now. LOL - it could be said that the SSPX in general is sedevacantist in practice. It is not obedient to Rome in the least. If these are true popes then what is this? Its a partial schism. The last thing SSPXers want is full communion with Rome. ALTAR AGAINST ALTAR.
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« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2006, 01:26:02 AM »

It seems most people have logically thought out and ageed that the best thing to do would be to have the 62' Mass in the vernacular and instead of only one altar boy saying responses, maybe the dialogue mass where everyone responded. I'd rather have my eyes concentrated at the altar then on a priest turned towards me. Can't ppl get used to it?
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« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2006, 03:06:42 AM »

I think Timos has the right Idea bring back the 62 missal with an alter boy to assist the priest but also have the people do the responses like the diologue mass,and have most of it in the vernacular. As far as moving slowly goes from what I have heard from my grandparents at their catholic church it only took a couple of years for things to change. So I think they should do what I posted above but slowly i.e. have the 62 missal celebrated once a month for a while then twice a month and so on. Also reform the Novus Ordo as much as they can and then maybe a parish could have N.O. mass at 9 a.m. the 62 mass at noon or whatever. Eventualy it could end up like the episcopalians rite one and rite two.

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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2006, 03:09:06 AM »

Oh I forgot to mention the big reform that I think needs to be done in the Novus Ordo is to have a more explicit offertory, probably just inserting the Tridentine offertory into the N O would work
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« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2006, 08:25:18 AM »

Thats the official SSPX position for ecumenism with Modernist Rome. There are a lot of closet sedevacantist priests in the SSPX. Though Lefebvre expelled some of them he thought about adopting this position too. In fact I can give several quotes where he doubted whether these are in fact real popes. The Good Archbishop went as far as to call the New Church a schismatic organization and said that one becomes a schismatic insofar as one associates himself with it. He said that he is in obedience to Eternal Rome and NOT to Modernist Rome.

There are much more sedevacantists priests in the SSPX now. LOL - it could be said that the SSPX in general is sedevacantist in practice. It is not obedient to Rome in the least. If these are true popes then what is this? Its a partial schism. The last thing SSPXers want is full communion with Rome. ALTAR AGAINST ALTAR.

So the SSPX is an organization of priests, some of whom are in schism and some of whom are not? The ones in schism certainly do not mind pledging their eternal loyalty to Pope Benedict XVI, the current occupant of the See of Peter.

Mind you, I do not go to SSPX masses, but I tire of you grouping SSPX with the sedevacantist groups. There is a BIG difference. By your own logic, the SSPX is also a modernist heretic group, since its head, Bishop Fellay, recognizes Pope Benedict and is negotiating for canonical regularity with Rome.

Sedevacantists are Protestants wearing Catholic lace. In fact, I prefer Protestants! Sedevacantists should know better.
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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2006, 02:52:31 PM »

Mind you, I do not go to SSPX masses, but I tire of you grouping SSPX with the sedevacantist groups. There is a BIG difference. By your own logic, the SSPX is also a modernist heretic group, since its head, Bishop Fellay, recognizes Pope Benedict and is negotiating for canonical regularity with Rome.

No - because the SSPX does not associate with the Novus Ordo Religion in practice. It gives lip service to the supposed "popes." Most - over 95 percent!!!!!!! - of sedevacantists believe that sedevacantism is a mere opinion and allow their members to believe that there are real popes in Rome right now. In fact some of the most popular apologists for sedevacantism attend SSPX chapels. For instance John Lane who debated Robert Sungenis on the matter is an SSPXer. Here is his sight: http://www.sedevacantist.com/index.htm. Hardcore eh? But his SSPX parish does not kick him out. Sedevacantism is an opinion not a dogma that must be believed.

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« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2006, 04:47:39 PM »

Most - over 95 percent!!!!!!! - of sedevacantists believe that sedevacantism is a mere opinion and allow their members to believe that there are real popes in Rome right now.

In nomine Iesu, nonchal I offer you continued peace,

If you listen to File 2 of 2002 Conference on the "sede vacante" thesis you will hear a refutation of your claim that sede vacantists that the vacancy of the Rome See is merely 'opinion' among true sede vacantists.

Perhaps you are confusing that fact that among sede vacanists and SSPX both find 'in common' a distrust of the current Papacy and the Church after Vatican II. I believe in the details of their positions they would find stark differences but these differences are simply over shadowed by the shared distrust and dislike of the current Papacy and the Church after Vatican II. Rest assured this is a temporary union with little hope of surviving if the larger shadow of the current Papacy and Church after Vatican II could be removed.

Dominus Vobiscum
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Francisce-Christophorus

Sancte Francisce, athleta Christi, ora pro nobis. Amen.
Xenia1918
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« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2011, 03:21:21 PM »

I was baptized as a RC in 1978 when I was 18 years old, and the TLM was very hard to find back then...I had to take 3 buses to get to the only one I knew of, in a motel in a nearby town. Took me 3 1/2 hrs to get there, but I did it, over and over again, back when I was young, healthier and much more energetic! I'm 52 now, and have been to about 4 novus ordos in my life, all of them funerals (rather fitting, IMO.)

As much as I loved, and still love the TLM, I just could not remain with a church that could do that to their own people, who were some of their most faithful members. I remember the grief and pain my mother's family felt over the changes in the late 1960s/early 1970s. I did not know of the Orthodox Church back then, or I would have joined sooner. I came to understand that I find myself agreeing with the Orthodox approach to church authority more than the RC approach. Indeed, Traditional RCs were and are being very Orthodox in their thinking, when they refuse to accept modernistic changes in their church, just because the church says so. They should rather break communion, which many of them have done (though they deny it.)

I am joining the Orthodox Church; my 19 year old son, however, has a fascination with the TLM stemming from his obsession with medieval history and medieval wargaming! He has BEGGED me to take him to a TLM, so before I join the Orthodox Church, I will do that for him (I told him once I become Orthodox I cannot attend any non-Orthodox religious services.)

Fortunately there is a sung (high Mass) TLM in my city, and another one in a nearby town. There is a low Mass but I want him to experience the full "smells and bells". Smiley (incidentally my son is Jewish, so who knows where this may lead?)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 03:27:08 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
dcointin
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« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2011, 03:18:27 PM »

In the St. Louis area, I know of St. Francis De Sales, though there may be others.  Here's their website:

http://www.institute-christ-king.org/stlouis/
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bogdan
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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2011, 03:41:33 PM »

There is a RC parish in my area that does the Latin Mass. I attended it once, and was surprised that the decent-sized church was basically full. It was mostly college-age kids and young families.

I feel like there is a large element of conservative young people in the RCC, and once the liberal elements die out the RCC will become more liturgically conservative. Didn't Pope Benedict once say he foresees a smaller, but more devoted RCC in the future? I definitely think that could happen.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 03:41:52 PM by bogdan » Logged
Robb
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« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2011, 10:54:09 AM »

There are two TLM's in my immediate metro area and one SSPX church (Their national headquarters no less).  the bishop even gave an old parish church over to his TLM community who then turned it into an oratory.  They even have a traditionalist religious order serving their (ICK).  The whole KC area seems to be some type of traditional RC mecca. 

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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