Author Topic: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists  (Read 1715 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Quote
NEW YORK (ABP) – Southern Baptists who question Gov. Mitt Romney’s Christianity have more in common with Mormonism than they know, Yale literary critic and author Harold Bloom opined in a New York Times commentary Nov.12.

Under an op-ed headline “Will This Election Be the Mormon Breakthrough?" Bloom agreed that Mormonism as envisioned by founding prophet Joseph Smith “was as much a departure from historical Christianity as Islam was and is.”

“But then, so in fact are most manifestations of what is now called religion in the United States, including the Southern Baptist Convention, the Assemblies of God Pentecostalists and even our mainline Protestant denominations,” Bloom continued.
....
While most Baptists in the United States trace their historic roots to Europe 400 years ago, Bloom contended that Southern Baptists emerged as a distinctly American tradition in the early 20th century with theologian E.Y. Mullins, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in his Axioms of Religion.

While Mormons believe they can become gods, Bloom said, Mullins’ teaching of soul competency places God within, where no one can come between the individual and God.

Bloom said Mormon and Southern Baptist religions are both “fundamentally experiential religions” closer to Gnosticism -- an early heretical teaching that each individual possesses a divine spark and salvation consists of liberation of that divine spark from the body and culture of the day -- than to historic Christianity.
....
As for his preference, Bloom, who is Jewish, observed: “Mormonism’s best inheritance from Joseph Smith was his passion for education, hardly evident in the anti-intellectual and semi-literate Southern Baptist Convention. I wonder though which is more dangerous, a knowledge-hungry religious zealotry or a proudly stupid one? Either way we are condemned to remain a plutocracy and oligarchy. I can be forgiven for dreading a further strengthening of theocracy in that powerful brew.”


Uh...Mormonism is about eternal life in a physical body; that's hardly a "liberation...from the body".
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,046
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 01:45:22 AM »
I was going to say, haven't the Mormons actually been around longer than the Southern Baptists?

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 01:47:59 AM »
Quote
Mormonism’s best inheritance from Joseph Smith was his passion for education,

ROFL
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2011, 07:51:25 AM »
I was going to say, haven't the Mormons actually been around longer than the Southern Baptists?
Just barely: LDS - 1830; Southern Baptists - 1845.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 07:51:41 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Marat

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 383
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2011, 02:48:22 PM »
Quote
Mormonism’s best inheritance from Joseph Smith was his passion for education,

ROFL

Why is this so funny? There is a strong belief in the importance of education in the LDS church. At BYU, there is a sign marking the entrance to the campus reflecting this mindset which reads, "The glory of God is intelligence." Church leaders from Smith to the current day repeat the message for current members to obtain as much education as possible.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2012, 03:39:08 AM »
Frank Schaeffer on the interesting connections between evangelicals and Mormons:

Quote
RealClearReligion: Why do evangelicals have such a problem with Mormons?

FrankSchaeffer: I think it is a defensive mechanism from a point of view of insecurity. The difference between the Roman Catholic Church and all evangelical denominations is the Roman Catholics know who they are. They have a history. Whereas, evangelicalism is a self-invented form of Christianity that has cut itself off from the history of the Church and the tradition of the Church. Therefore, it's basically like siblings fighting.

The Roman Catholics know who they are. I happen to go to a Greek Orthodox church; we know who we are. A protestant denomination doesn't know who it is, or if it does and the youth pastor splits and starts a new church, there's nothing to say, "You can't do this." The chaos within Protestantism -- the multiplicity of denominations, seminaries, infighting, different points of view of the Scripture -- any kind of new interpretation which deviates from what they regard as their version of orthodoxy is a tremendous threat because there's nothing to appeal to except personal opinion.

RealClearReligion: Evangelicals are then competing with Mormons for converts?

FrankSchaeffer: They're competing with Mormons for coverts, competing with Mormons for legitimacy, and what's more, Mormonism is an American phenomenon that comes precariously close to being exactly what most evangelicalism is: self-invented religion which comes out of 19th and 18th century revivals which doesn't even tie back to Protestant history in Europe. It's like having somebody at a family reunion and you don't want to admit it, but this guy is my cousin.

Mormons really bug evangelicals because, guess what? When evangelicals look in the mirror, they're not too many steps removed from where Mormonism came from. Evangelicalism has a lot more to do with North American revivalism than it does with classic Protestantism. I think the proximity is too close and it makes evangelicals uncomfortable.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2012, 06:45:23 AM »
"Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists"

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!  Whew!  Thats a good one!  ;D









What?  :-\

He was serious?  ???

Offline age234

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 555
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2012, 09:01:14 AM »
Quote
RealClearReligion: Why do evangelicals you have such a problem with Mormons evangelicals?

FrankSchaeffer: I think it is a defensive mechanism from a point of view of insecurity.

Pot meet kettle... Just sayin.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 09:03:20 AM by age234 »

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2012, 12:07:37 PM »
Harold Bloom wrote an entire book on this matter some years ago:



http://www.amazon.com/The-American-Religion-Harold-Bloom/dp/0978721004

I'm not a big fan of Bloom but I did read the text shortly after it came out. It is OK. What surprised me was his analysis and presentation of Mormonism (something I knew little about at the time) and how accurate his prognostications have been.

Not a recommendation.

If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2012, 12:18:05 PM »
Quote
NEW YORK (ABP) – Southern Baptists who question Gov. Mitt Romney’s Christianity have more in common with Mormonism than they know, Yale literary critic and author Harold Bloom opined in a New York Times commentary Nov.12.

Under an op-ed headline “Will This Election Be the Mormon Breakthrough?" Bloom agreed that Mormonism as envisioned by founding prophet Joseph Smith “was as much a departure from historical Christianity as Islam was and is.”

“But then, so in fact are most manifestations of what is now called religion in the United States, including the Southern Baptist Convention, the Assemblies of God Pentecostalists and even our mainline Protestant denominations,” Bloom continued.
....
While most Baptists in the United States trace their historic roots to Europe 400 years ago, Bloom contended that Southern Baptists emerged as a distinctly American tradition in the early 20th century with theologian E.Y. Mullins, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in his Axioms of Religion.

While Mormons believe they can become gods, Bloom said, Mullins’ teaching of soul competency places God within, where no one can come between the individual and God.

Bloom said Mormon and Southern Baptist religions are both “fundamentally experiential religions” closer to Gnosticism -- an early heretical teaching that each individual possesses a divine spark and salvation consists of liberation of that divine spark from the body and culture of the day -- than to historic Christianity.
....
As for his preference, Bloom, who is Jewish, observed: “Mormonism’s best inheritance from Joseph Smith was his passion for education, hardly evident in the anti-intellectual and semi-literate Southern Baptist Convention. I wonder though which is more dangerous, a knowledge-hungry religious zealotry or a proudly stupid one? Either way we are condemned to remain a plutocracy and oligarchy. I can be forgiven for dreading a further strengthening of theocracy in that powerful brew.”


Uh...Mormonism is about eternal life in a physical body; that's hardly a "liberation...from the body".

However that body is not within this "fallen materiality". Gnosticism isn't necessarily an anti-materialist stance. Being stupidly reductionistic, I would suggest gnosticism can be more about a duality of mind or spirit or soul or spark or whatever and body, where the body and materiality are no longer the master of mind or spirit or soul but its absolute obedient servant.

That is liberation from the body.

If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2012, 05:26:15 PM »
Quote
NEW YORK (ABP) – Southern Baptists who question Gov. Mitt Romney’s Christianity have more in common with Mormonism than they know, Yale literary critic and author Harold Bloom opined in a New York Times commentary Nov.12.

Under an op-ed headline “Will This Election Be the Mormon Breakthrough?" Bloom agreed that Mormonism as envisioned by founding prophet Joseph Smith “was as much a departure from historical Christianity as Islam was and is.”

“But then, so in fact are most manifestations of what is now called religion in the United States, including the Southern Baptist Convention, the Assemblies of God Pentecostalists and even our mainline Protestant denominations,” Bloom continued.
....
While most Baptists in the United States trace their historic roots to Europe 400 years ago, Bloom contended that Southern Baptists emerged as a distinctly American tradition in the early 20th century with theologian E.Y. Mullins, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in his Axioms of Religion.

While Mormons believe they can become gods, Bloom said, Mullins’ teaching of soul competency places God within, where no one can come between the individual and God.

Bloom said Mormon and Southern Baptist religions are both “fundamentally experiential religions” closer to Gnosticism -- an early heretical teaching that each individual possesses a divine spark and salvation consists of liberation of that divine spark from the body and culture of the day -- than to historic Christianity.
....
As for his preference, Bloom, who is Jewish, observed: “Mormonism’s best inheritance from Joseph Smith was his passion for education, hardly evident in the anti-intellectual and semi-literate Southern Baptist Convention. I wonder though which is more dangerous, a knowledge-hungry religious zealotry or a proudly stupid one? Either way we are condemned to remain a plutocracy and oligarchy. I can be forgiven for dreading a further strengthening of theocracy in that powerful brew.”


Uh...Mormonism is about eternal life in a physical body; that's hardly a "liberation...from the body".

However that body is not within this "fallen materiality". Gnosticism isn't necessarily an anti-materialist stance. Being stupidly reductionistic, I would suggest gnosticism can be more about a duality of mind or spirit or soul or spark or whatever and body, where the body and materiality are no longer the master of mind or spirit or soul but its absolute obedient servant.

That is liberation from the body.
So you're saying that "liberation from the body" is simply the body/mind/soul/spirit itself commanding, and not being commanded by, the physical body?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2012, 05:29:32 PM »
Quote
NEW YORK (ABP) – Southern Baptists who question Gov. Mitt Romney’s Christianity have more in common with Mormonism than they know, Yale literary critic and author Harold Bloom opined in a New York Times commentary Nov.12.

Under an op-ed headline “Will This Election Be the Mormon Breakthrough?" Bloom agreed that Mormonism as envisioned by founding prophet Joseph Smith “was as much a departure from historical Christianity as Islam was and is.”

“But then, so in fact are most manifestations of what is now called religion in the United States, including the Southern Baptist Convention, the Assemblies of God Pentecostalists and even our mainline Protestant denominations,” Bloom continued.
....
While most Baptists in the United States trace their historic roots to Europe 400 years ago, Bloom contended that Southern Baptists emerged as a distinctly American tradition in the early 20th century with theologian E.Y. Mullins, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in his Axioms of Religion.

While Mormons believe they can become gods, Bloom said, Mullins’ teaching of soul competency places God within, where no one can come between the individual and God.

Bloom said Mormon and Southern Baptist religions are both “fundamentally experiential religions” closer to Gnosticism -- an early heretical teaching that each individual possesses a divine spark and salvation consists of liberation of that divine spark from the body and culture of the day -- than to historic Christianity.
....
As for his preference, Bloom, who is Jewish, observed: “Mormonism’s best inheritance from Joseph Smith was his passion for education, hardly evident in the anti-intellectual and semi-literate Southern Baptist Convention. I wonder though which is more dangerous, a knowledge-hungry religious zealotry or a proudly stupid one? Either way we are condemned to remain a plutocracy and oligarchy. I can be forgiven for dreading a further strengthening of theocracy in that powerful brew.”


Uh...Mormonism is about eternal life in a physical body; that's hardly a "liberation...from the body".

However that body is not within this "fallen materiality". Gnosticism isn't necessarily an anti-materialist stance. Being stupidly reductionistic, I would suggest gnosticism can be more about a duality of mind or spirit or soul or spark or whatever and body, where the body and materiality are no longer the master of mind or spirit or soul but its absolute obedient servant.

That is liberation from the body.
So you're saying that "liberation from the body" is simply the body/mind/soul/spirit itself commanding, and not being commanded by, the physical body?

I think he means it goes beyond just "commanding" to the point of completely and totally dominating.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Yale professor cites similarities between Mormons, Southern Baptists
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2012, 03:08:27 PM »
Quote
One week ago, a small group of Mormon feminists encouraged Mormon women who wrestle with gender inequality to renew their courage and find sisters in spirit -- simply by wearing dress pants to church this Sunday, Dec. 16.

Mind you, wearing pants to church is not against the Mormon religion. Nowhere does LDS Scripture or church policy command Sunday dresses for women.
....
But even a gentle break with Mormon social convention, even a modest effort to help progressive Mormons feel less alone in the faith is enough to engender a national reaction, as Wear Pants to Church Day organizers have since discovered.

Their call-to-trousers has drawn strongly positive and negative (even vicious) reactions from LDS Church members. And it's made it clear how deeply thoughtful, civil conversation about gender is needed in Mormon communities.

I think many Southern Baptist churches strongly discourage women wearing slacks ("slacking off") on Sunday.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.