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Author Topic: Furor in Italian Parliament over Gay Nativity Scene  (Read 2953 times) Average Rating: 0
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lubeltri
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« on: December 20, 2006, 01:38:33 PM »

Furor in Italy over "gay nativity" in parliament

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-12-20T163841Z_01_L20602735_RTRUKOC_0_US-POPE-NATIVITY.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

By Philip Pullella

ROME (Reuters) - Two leftists in Italy's ruling coalition on Wednesday outraged fellow lawmakers by placing four dolls representing homosexual couples near the baby Jesus in the official nativity scene in parliament.

The two parliamentarians from the small "Rose in the Fist" party said their gesture was to promote the legalization of gay marriage and granting legal recognition to unmarried couples.

Bruno Mellano and Donatella Poretti placed the Barbie and Ken-type dolls in the parliamentary nativity scene, each couple lying down embraced among the shepherds witnessing the birth of Jesus.

Each of the two doll couples, which parliamentary ushers removed after a few minutes, wore miniature placards with slogans in favor of gay rights.

"This is a vulgar and unacceptable double attack against both a (national) institution as well as a religious symbol," a group of women parliamentarians of the opposition conservative Forza Italia party said in a statement.

Luca Volonte, a member of the small centrist opposition Union of Christian Democrats, called the gesture a "pure attack against the religion practiced by the majority of Italians".

Italy is overwhelmingly Roman Catholic and nativity scenes, featuring figures of the baby Jesus, Mary, Joseph, shepherds, animals and three kings bearing gifts, are put but in many homes, squares and shops. 

Some members of the opposition demanded the lawmakers be censured by the speaker of the lower house of parliament.

But even the Italian Communist Party, which supports gay rights and is also in the ruling coalition of Prime Minister Romano Prodi, distanced itself from the action.

One communist parliamentarian called it "a grave political error" that would not help homosexuals.

The two leftist politicians carried out their gesture just before Pope Benedict, speaking to pilgrims and tourists at the Vatican, said Christmas creches were part of Christian culture that had to be defended.

-----

It's nice to see that the Italians have retained a sense of outrage.
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2006, 02:13:11 PM »

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One communist parliamentarian called it "a grave political error" that would not help homosexuals.

I think that about sums it up. If these politicans really wanted to further the gay rights movement (or further diminish the homophobic attitudes still existing in Italy), this wasn't the way to do it.
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2006, 03:10:42 PM »

This is just out of line. I believe even most supporters of gay rights would object to a mockery of religion like this. I fail to see how this would help build support for gay rights and marriage.
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2006, 04:08:59 PM »

It sounds as if the activist politicians were at least being honest about how the "gay rights" movement hold the Word of God, His Church, and its teaching in utter disdain.

The only odd thing is that they were so honest about it.
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2006, 04:51:08 PM »

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It sounds as if the activist politicians were at least being honest about how the "gay rights" movement hold the Word of God, His Church, and its teaching in utter disdain. The only odd thing is that they were so honest about it.

Most of them only disdain insensitive people like yourself.
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2006, 08:22:09 PM »

Most of them only disdain insensitive people like yourself.

How is this insensite? Both Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy reject homosexuality outright. I assume you would too.
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2006, 08:41:49 PM »

No, I don't reject homosexuality.

Regarding the insensitivity, I had in mind things like thousands of years of murder in the Judeo-Christian tradition (homosexuality was a criminal offense), being told that they were going to hell to be eternally tormented, etc. Even in the mid-20th century they could be arrested and put in jail for their "mental illness". It's a bit insensitive, not to mention silly, to accuse them of being disdainful, simply for rejecting the view that they are dirty sinners who deserve to suffer in hell, and ignoring those who advocate such a position.
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2006, 09:40:53 PM »

being told that they were going to hell to be eternally tormented, etc.

Hey, while Christianity, prior to the 20th Century, has pretty universally condemned Homosexuality, we haven't all said THAT. Wink
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 09:41:10 PM by greekischristian » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2006, 09:29:13 AM »

Most of them only disdain insensitive people like yourself.
I wondered how long it would be before someone defended their actions in some manner.
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2006, 09:30:17 AM »

How is this insensite? Both Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy reject homosexuality outright. I assume you would too.
As you suggest, all Christians reject what God Himself has called sin.
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2006, 01:07:23 PM »

No, I don't reject homosexuality.

How does one not reject the concept of Homosexuality and still remain in the grace of God?
I understand not condemning the Homosexual, but Homosexuality?
Do you see it as a sin in the eyes of God when it is engaged in or something considered a part of the natural order because of those who claim that they are born into this and did not make it a choice?

Just curious as to wqhere you are going with this line/statement.
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2006, 01:59:58 PM »

I think I see where Asterikos is coming from and mostly agree (to an extent).  Obviously the concept of sin and such is moot for Asterikos, but from my perspective - as a Christian - he has a point.  Many Christians have this extreme loathing of homosexual people as if they are the sinners of sinners and that they are the absolute scum of the earth.  I've witnessed these sentiments expressed from (straight) people who are openly engaging in activities that have traditionally been considered sodomy.  This has turned many gays (likely for the rest fo their lives) from ever considering the Christian message, because they have only experienced it as a vehicle of hatred.  Hence it would benefit Christians to tone down the rhetoric and attempt to be on more friendly terms with the gay community.  When they say Christianity as a peaceful and loving force, there is a far greater chance that they will investigate and perhaps even enter the spiritual struggle themselves. 
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2006, 10:21:25 AM »

BoredMeeting

Quote
I wondered how long it would be before someone defended their actions in some manner.

Have you considered that, just maybe, possibly, you could have been a bit more tactful and less presumptuous?


Panagiotis

Quote
How does one not reject the concept of Homosexuality and still remain in the grace of God? I understand not condemning the Homosexual, but Homosexuality?

Since I don't believe in God, I'm not really that worried about the whole grace thing. Wink

Quote
Do you see it as a sin in the eyes of God when it is engaged in or something considered a part of the natural order because of those who claim that they are born into this and did not make it a choice?

Again, God isn't a factor for me. Having said that, I will say that I do not necessarily think that something is ok just because it is "natural". However, I do think that if genetics and body chemistry plays a part, then that should be considered when talking about homosexuality. Personally I think their experiences in early life, and various psychological issues, have the most important part to play. But then I'm neither a scientist, a therapist, nor a homosexual, so I'm on the outside looking in here.
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« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2006, 01:36:29 AM »

Since I don't believe in God, I'm not really that worried about the whole grace thing. Wink
So much for you lecturing any of us on tact or presumption...
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« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2006, 01:42:19 AM »

Nah, I was just askings questions and expressing opinions. If I were to lecture there would certainly be a fee involved.  Grin
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« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2006, 02:18:18 PM »

If I valued non-Orthodox opinions on such matters, I'd go to non-Orthodox forums.

But I don't on either account, you see, although I find it curious to find the sources of such opinions so prevalent on Orthodox forums.
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« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2006, 03:12:46 PM »

If I feared different opinions I would throw my computer and form a cult that prohibited the use of the internet.

However, as a modern American I welcome the expression different opinions...and despise those totalitarianists who do not as the worst enemies this Republic.
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« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2006, 05:13:36 PM »

I think I see where Asterikos is coming from and mostly agree (to an extent).  Obviously the concept of sin and such is moot for Asterikos, but from my perspective - as a Christian - he has a point.  Many Christians have this extreme loathing of homosexual people as if they are the sinners of sinners and that they are the absolute scum of the earth.  I've witnessed these sentiments expressed from (straight) people who are openly engaging in activities that have traditionally been considered sodomy.  This has turned many gays (likely for the rest fo their lives) from ever considering the Christian message, because they have only experienced it as a vehicle of hatred.  Hence it would benefit Christians to tone down the rhetoric and attempt to be on more friendly terms with the gay community.  When they say Christianity as a peaceful and loving force, there is a far greater chance that they will investigate and perhaps even enter the spiritual struggle themselves. 

I would venture with a "hear, hear"! 
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« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2006, 11:48:48 PM »

However, as a modern American I welcome the expression different opinions...and despise those totalitarianists who do not as the worst enemies this Republic.
And I heartily mock you if you attempt to include me into the latter imaginary group!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

I just find it hilarious that I can come to a place named OrthodoxChristianity.net and read the teachings of the Orthodox Christian Church mocked by people who proudly proclaim themselves to be anything BUT Orthodox Christians...

As I suggested, it would be much like me logging on to NeoPlatonist.net, making statements on morality, and expecting anyone to care.

Pretty silly when you think about it.
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« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2006, 11:50:53 PM »

I would venture with a "hear, hear"! 
I would venture with a "drek not worth hearing!"

Hmm, I wonder which posters are the Orthodox Christians?  Those that condemn sin or those that condemn those who dare condemn sin?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2006, 11:59:49 PM by BoredMeeting » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2006, 12:02:37 AM »

With all this mocking going on, maybe you should make a full-length mockumentary. "The sights, the sounds, the smells... of OrthodoxChristianity.net". You could interview OC.net members from throughout the world, and elsewhere. Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2006, 12:19:41 AM »

Quote
Hmm, I wonder which posters are the Orthodox Christians?  Those that condemn sin or those that condemn those who dare condemn sin?

As far as I can tell, only one poster in this thread does NOT believe that homosexuality is a grave sin.  Asterikos clearly has stated that he isn't an Orthodox Christian, so it is clear that he isn't trying to confuse people into believing that what he says is actual Orthodox doctrine.  He has been posting here at OC.net for several years.  The fact that he is a former Orthodox Christian gives him an interesting perspective to add to our discussion. 
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2006, 01:39:00 AM »

With all this mocking going on, maybe you should make a full-length mockumentary. "The sights, the sounds, the smells... of OrthodoxChristianity.net". You could interview OC.net members from throughout the world, and elsewhere. Smiley

and elsewhere? This is intriguing.....  Shocked
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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2006, 02:57:15 AM »

I just find it hilarious that I can come to a place named OrthodoxChristianity.net and read the teachings of the Orthodox Christian Church mocked by people who proudly proclaim themselves to be anything BUT Orthodox Christians...

The problems is not the moral theology of the Church, but rather the unloving manner in which it is presented by religious fanatics. His Eminence Metropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco, for one, has already said that while the Church cannot condone gay marriage it would be hypocritical and contrary to the values of our society for us to deny these civil rights in a legal context.

The position I and others have put forward of social tolerance even in the absence of religious acceptance is mainstream within Orthodoxy. It is the extremism of religious fundamentalists that we are fortunately moving away from...and must continue to do so at all costs.

Oh, and I'm as Orthodox as anyone here and, as a loyal subject of the Oecumenical Throne, more so than most.

Quote
As I suggested, it would be much like me logging on to NeoPlatonist.net, making statements on morality, and expecting anyone to care.

Pretty silly when you think about it.

Christian theology, when done patristically, is neoplatonic...so good Christian theology (not the bs judaized stuff) would be quite relevant to a discussion on neoplatonism.
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« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2006, 03:10:28 AM »

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and elsewhere? This is intriguing

As most things Spinal Tap tend to be Wink
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