Poll

What do you think of ST:Voyager?

It wasn't bad, but wasn't that good either.
5 (14.7%)
It wasn't bad, but wasn't that good either.
10 (29.4%)
Pretty good.
9 (26.5%)
It was excellent.
9 (26.5%)
Huh? They made a Trek after the Original Series?
1 (2.9%)
Trek sucks.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Author Topic: Star Trek: Voyager  (Read 9519 times)

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Offline Justin Kissel

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Star Trek: Voyager
« on: December 19, 2006, 01:27:16 AM »
I grew up watching TNG and DS9, but for some reason I never got into Voyager. I would watch it from time to time, and I liked the Harry Kim and Doctor characters, but nothing really ever caught my attention. Spike started running a marathon of Voyager yesterday, and I caught a couple episodes, and plan on watching as many as I can the rest of the week to give it another shot. So... if anyone out there really likes it, could you maybe share what makes it enjoyable to you? What am I missing?

Offline GiC

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2006, 01:33:17 AM »
It had some good episodes, but as a whole it didn't compare to TOS, TNG, or DS9...perhaps it was comprable with ENT. I liked Seven and Tuvok, could tolerate Chakotay, Torres, and Paris, but hated the Captain, Doctor, Kim, and most of all, Neelix...he was like an extra annoying version of Wesley, and that's saying something. I might pirate the episodes someday, but it's unlikely i'll buy them.
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2006, 01:56:52 AM »
It was worth watching just for 7of9.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 01:57:57 AM by Matthew777 »
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2006, 02:00:22 AM »
"Quick Mr. Two-Spocks!  Re-invigorate the toaster matrix to compensate for fluctuations in the microwave induction unit!  Those wiener torpedos have got to be ready for launch lunch!"   :o

I thought that it pretty much sucked until about the time Seven came into the picture.  After that, IMHO there were some really awesome episodes.  The writing seemed to really improve, and the whole thing just seemed to gell a lot better.

....hated....most of all, Neelix...he was like an extra annoying version of Wesley, and that's saying something.

Shoot him on sight!  Man, I used to hate it when the writers would use him to represent the audience in asking the question:  "How do we do that?"  Or when he would invent some ridiculous new omelette of some kind in the galley and foist it upon some unsuspecting bridge officers.  What did Kes see in him?  Ridiculous!  
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 02:05:03 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2006, 02:01:33 AM »
Quote
I liked Seven....

I think she's your soul mate, GiC.  

Offline Gabriel

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 02:12:41 AM »
I think it's a fine Trek series.  Of course, nothing will ever approach the awesomely goodness that is The Next Generation, but, it's not a bad second.

Deep Space Nine?  Whoever made that show is a sick, sick, person.  I mean, who makes a Star Trek... where the main craft doesn't move?

Good Points about Voyager:

Seven of Nine
Plenty of BORG episodes (gotta have em)
Seven of Nine
Several Q Continuum episodes (gotta have those, too)
Seven of Nine

Looks like a good series to me.

 ;D
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2006, 02:22:04 AM »
Apparently, I wasn't the only one with a thing for Seven.  Hehe.

It was the first Trek series I started watching...so it was just decent.

They are all pretty good.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2006, 02:39:44 AM »
Actually I think everyone had a thing for 7. Everyone, that is, but me. *shrugs*  I mean, her assets were obvious... maybe a little too obvious. I'd rather watch a Jadzia Dax or Leeta, whose assets were also obvious, but not quite so over-exposed (pardon the pun) in the mainstream media.

And anyone who speaks ill of DS9 deserves Trek exile.  :) It may have been the most un-Trek-like, but it was also the more realistic, of the Treks. Besides, they caved and gave you nay sayers a ship fairly early on, and a fancy prototype warship (later with a cloaking device) to boot! Anyway, back to Voyager watching tomorrow I guess...

Offline John of the North

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2006, 02:56:19 AM »
Ya but Voyager had two Delta Flyers.

I think Voyager appealed to alot who had watched the other series, because the Delta Quadrant is far enough removed that the show had some creative leeway while still including old standbys.

Some awesome episodes:
Barge of the Dead
Going back in time to 20th century San Fran
Series Finale
the episode with Andy Dick
Seven's multiple personality's
anything Hirogen (ie WW2 Holodeck)
that Irish village on the Holodeck
the Borg Children
Q's son

Wow I need to get a life. I don't even watch Voyager anymore. My life is consumed by Canadian Tire...I am such a lifer. One of two male cashiers...benefits. Lolz
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Offline Gabriel

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2006, 03:30:35 AM »
Actually I think everyone had a thing for 7. Everyone, that is, but me.

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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2006, 06:05:58 AM »
Actually I think everyone had a thing for 7. Everyone, that is, but me. *shrugs*  I mean, her assets were obvious... maybe a little too obvious. I'd rather watch a Jadzia Dax or Leeta, whose assets were also obvious, but not quite so over-exposed (pardon the pun) in the mainstream media.

And anyone who speaks ill of DS9 deserves Trek exile.  :) It may have been the most un-Trek-like, but it was also the more realistic, of the Treks. Besides, they caved and gave you nay sayers a ship fairly early on, and a fancy prototype warship (later with a cloaking device) to boot! Anyway, back to Voyager watching tomorrow I guess...

I agree completely (on both counts - 7 of 9 always looked like she'd need some sort of back brace to me). In my opinion DS9 was the best Trek series of all, mainly because it didn't fall completely to Roddenberry's naive, 'the future will be a utopian place where money and religion have been banished forever' idea. Much more realistic, especially psychologically.

Of course, generally speaking Star Trek was way too optimistic for this SF fan - I greatly prefer my dystopias, to be honest.

James
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Offline GiC

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2006, 07:54:31 AM »
Actually I think everyone had a thing for 7. Everyone, that is, but me. *shrugs*  I mean, her assets were obvious... maybe a little too obvious. I'd rather watch a Jadzia Dax or Leeta, whose assets were also obvious, but not quite so over-exposed (pardon the pun) in the mainstream media.

It was more than just the assets with Seven, it was also the hardware...and by that I of course mean the borg enhancements...integrated human and machine with a cold and reserved logical approach to life, what's not to like? Is not that the eventual goal towards which we seek to evolove ourselves?
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2006, 09:08:12 AM »
Is not that the eventual goal towards which we seek to evolove ourselves?
"evolove"? Does this Freudian slip reveal more than you intended about this thing you have for Seven? ;)
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2006, 09:19:30 AM »
I'll take Jadzia's spots over Seven's hardware any day.

Of course, Sharon Valerii leaves 'em both in the dust.  :D
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Offline FrChris

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2006, 11:12:18 AM »
I think she's your soul mate, GiC.  

Nektarie, you have noooo idea how much you made GiC's day with that comment.... ;)

Unless, of course, you could arrange for a meeting between GiC and T'Pau...
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2006, 12:14:38 PM »
I watched the first season of this when it came out (1994?), but I got busy with school and kind of drifted off. From what I remember, I quite liked it. I really liked Captain Janeway (perhaps it's because I had a thing for Kate Mulgrew, who reminded me so much of Kate Hepburn).

Offline Zoe

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2006, 02:29:47 PM »
I watched a few episodes yesterday and the writing was really horrible -- to be honest, all the Star Treks writing is incredibly corny, but for some reason Voyager can't get away with it.  The Captain's acting is ugh, realllly bad, but because I like to know what happens, I continue to watch.  I'd probably get into it because I have no qualms about enjoying a show that is just poorly constructed.

NI!!!!!!

Offline dantxny

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2006, 02:36:37 PM »
I too think Janeway was terrible.  It was so cheesy and felt like an annoying family picnic.  Even Picard wouldn't let TNG get that bad.  Paris was an enjoyable character, though.  He provided some counter-action.  When you get down to it, though, I think DS9 was the best series by far.  I think it was the show that really became the most human, best and worst.  And I'll never forget the episode where Sisko challenged the Vulcans to a baseball game and Worf's comment later when trying to tag out a missing Vulcan. "Find him and Kill Him!"
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2006, 03:11:10 PM »
I don't know, for some reason I couldn't get into Deep Space Nine. I guess the travel aspect is an important part of Star Trek's appeal to me. I liked the idea of the Voyager getting marooned in the outer galaxy.

Offline Ebor

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2006, 03:17:27 PM »
The Voyager episode with "Arachnia Queen of the Spider People" was great fun and a wonderful tribute to an earlier SF genre.

 Speaking of which, the DS9 episode "Far Beyond the Stars" is superb with the referencing to the Golden Age of SF and the pulp writers and all. While they're not exact copies of some real SF writers, I think that (for example) the "Kira" equivalent was C.L. Moore while the "Julian" was like Henry Kuttner her husband.  It was common for women SF writers to use initials in that way, others being D. C. Fontana (who wrote some Star Trek) and Ursula K. LeGuin was "U.K." which she said stood for  "Ulysses Kingfisher"

The "O'brian" with writing robot stories is like Isaac Asimov in that way, though maybe not as much in personality. The editor might have been like John Campbell or Hugo Gernsback or some other figures from the time.

I could go on, but I'll stop for now with just saying that it's a powerful story and very well done.

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2006, 03:18:34 PM »
Oh, and just to date me some more, I watched the first airing of the first episode of Star Trek (the Original series) and I've been on SF ever since.  ;D

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2006, 03:21:05 PM »
Unless, of course, you could arrange for a meeting between GiC and T'Pau...

And what could be wrong with being Vulcan?  <one raised eyebrow glyph>

(recall in the "What ST type are you?" quiz that I scored as Mr. Spock.  I'd put a smilie here, but it might not be logical.)

Ebor

 ;)
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2006, 03:39:23 PM »
Ebor,

Now you didn't have to go and share that fact, lol. Though it probably gives you a perspective that few of the rest of us have.

dantxny

Quote
I think it was the show that really became the most human, best and worst.

Yeah, even though I really enjoyed quite a bit of the series, my favorite two episodes were both very dark ones. In the ep. In the Pale Moonlight, Sisko and Garak trick the Romulans into entering the Federation/Dominion war, by lying to a Romulan senator, and then by murdering him in such a way as to point the murder towards the Dominion. And in Duet, a man claims to be an infamous war criminal who had killed many Bajorans, making claims along the way which must have put GIC in heaven, such as:

"You saw what we wanted you to see. Do you know who started the rumors about brutality at Gallitep? Gul Darhe'el himself. Now there was a leader. A brilliant, extraordinary man. He knew that to rule by fear was to rule completely. Why bother with actual mass murder, when the mere reports of such incidents achieved the same effect."

"No, no, no, Major... I'm sorry, but you can't dismiss me that easily. I did what needed to be done. My men understood that... which is why they loved me. I'd order them to go out and murder Bajoran scum, and they would do it... They'd come back covered in blood... and still feel clean. Yes, Major... clean. And why did they feel that way? Because they were clean!"

Kira: "Nothing justifies genocide!"
Marritza: "What you call genocide, I call a day's work."

GIC

Quote
It was more than just the assets with Seven, it was also the hardware...and by that I of course mean the borg enhancements...integrated human and machine with a cold and reserved logical approach to life, what's not to like?

I guess if that's what strikes your fancy  :)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 03:41:32 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2006, 04:18:39 PM »
Yeah, even though I really enjoyed quite a bit of the series, my favorite two episodes were both very dark ones. In the ep. In the Pale Moonlight, Sisko and Garak trick the Romulans into entering the Federation/Dominion war, by lying to a Romulan senator, and then by murdering him in such a way as to point the murder towards the Dominion.

I'll agree with you on that one.  In the Pale Moonlight was probably the best episode of the entire series, especially when Garak is weighing the situation at the end.  "And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet Officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."  Forget the syrupy idealism of the other Treks; DS9 was far more realistic and far better television.
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Offline dantxny

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2006, 04:42:06 PM »
Oh, I'd definitly agree too.  In the Pale Moonlight was terrific.  Then with the end of having Sisko tell himself, "I can live with it."

My other favourite one had to be actually a little more light where Sisko wasn't sure whether he was a captain on DS9 or a SF writer in the racial fights on the 50s.
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I think the French may be on to something here.

Offline Ebor

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2006, 05:28:38 PM »
My other favourite one had to be actually a little more light where Sisko wasn't sure whether he was a captain on DS9 or a SF writer in the racial fights on the 50s.

That's "Far Beyond the Stars"  :)  It's also where we see Marc Alaimo's face since he played Gul Dukat.  He and "Weyoun" are the corrupt cops. 

Elim Garak was a fascinating character who one never really fully knew what he was thinking or doing. "The Wire" was one of his stories.   And the developement of Dukat over the years was excellent as well as highly complicated.

I have to confess though, I really liked the story "The House of Quark" where Quark ends up married to a Klingon woman.  The sheer concept of explaining crooked accounting to the Klingon High Council is priceless.  :D

The early years of Jadzia Dax also had some very good ideas and stories, and the acting of a young woman with the mannerisms of an *old* male friend of Sisko was well thought out and done.

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2006, 05:35:32 PM »
Ebor,

Now you didn't have to go and share that fact, lol. Though it probably gives you a perspective that few of the rest of us have.

40 years worth of perspective. Or it's a warning that I'm a geek.... but you probably knew that already.  ;D  (and I really *can* raise only one eyebrow.  I practiced when I was 11 until I could do it.)



Quote
And in Duet, a man claims to be an infamous war criminal who had killed many Bajorans, making claims along the way which must have put GIC in heaven, such as:

"You saw what we wanted you to see. Do you know who started the rumors about brutality at Gallitep? Gul Darhe'el himself. Now there was a leader. A brilliant, extraordinary man. He knew that to rule by fear was to rule completely. Why bother with actual mass murder, when the mere reports of such incidents achieved the same effect."

"No, no, no, Major... I'm sorry, but you can't dismiss me that easily. I did what needed to be done. My men understood that... which is why they loved me. I'd order them to go out and murder Bajoran scum, and they would do it... They'd come back covered in blood... and still feel clean. Yes, Major... clean. And why did they feel that way? Because they were clean!"

Kira: "Nothing justifies genocide!"
Marritza: "What you call genocide, I call a day's work."

Here's the link for "Memory Alpha" (and what episode of TOS is that from Trek fans?  ;) )
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Main_Page
and it's entry for "Duet"
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Duet

Ebor

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For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.

Offline GiC

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2006, 06:38:38 PM »
Yeah, even though I really enjoyed quite a bit of the series, my favorite two episodes were both very dark ones. In the ep. In the Pale Moonlight, Sisko and Garak trick the Romulans into entering the Federation/Dominion war, by lying to a Romulan senator, and then by murdering him in such a way as to point the murder towards the Dominion.

I must say, I believe that was my favourite trek episode of all time. And the one that truly made me like Garak.

Quote
And in Duet, a man claims to be an infamous war criminal who had killed many Bajorans, making claims along the way which must have put GIC in heaven, such as:...

Well as the title of another DS9 episode quoted Cicero, 'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges' ;)

Quote
GIC

I guess if that's what strikes your fancy  :)

Guess you wont be first in line to have a computer implanted into your brain then? Good...less competition ;D
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2006, 07:32:57 PM »
GIC

Quote
Guess you wont be first in line to have a computer implanted into your brain then? Good...less competition

Actually I wouldn't have a problem with that, I just don't like the "cold and logical" thing. If we were all cold and logical, I fear that the superiority of women and the fun of men would be lost. Besides, who's to say that a synthesis of man and machine* couldn't be just as emotional, irrational, etc.?  :)


* Though, as is commonly pointed out in Trek episodes, humans are machines as well, just machines of a different type.

Offline GiC

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2006, 07:54:48 PM »
Actually I wouldn't have a problem with that, I just don't like the "cold and logical" thing. If we were all cold and logical, I fear that the superiority of women and the fun of men would be lost.

This is another element of Seven I like, which the writers also played with in T'pol though to a lesser degree, though she conducted herself in a cold and logical manner in day to day life she was perfectly capable of indulging in and exploring her passions and emotions if she so desired and she often did. She essentially had the best of both worlds. The passions are great and marvelous things, though they should be ruled by, rather than rule, reason.

Quote
Besides, who's to say that a synthesis of man and machine* couldn't be just as emotional, irrational, etc.?  :)

Oh, i'm sure it could be...though at least then the problem could be fixed by editing the code...I fear the patch for a biological machine is a bit more difficult to come by.

Quote
* Though, as is commonly pointed out in Trek episodes, humans are machines as well, just machines of a different type.

Granted, though biological machines, at least the ones we know of, have substantial flaws and weaknesses that are not easily fixed (though there are some strengths we can learn from and retain in some form)...thus, our evolution from biological to mechanical would seem like the most natural path to pursue.

(Now I wonder how deeply people are going to disturbed by this revealing my true colours ;D)
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Offline dantxny

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2006, 08:58:31 PM »
Quote
Now I wonder how deeply people are going to disturbed by this revealing my true colours

Nah, we're still stuck on the 7 part ;)
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I think the French may be on to something here.

Offline GiC

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2006, 09:01:55 PM »
Nah, we're still stuck on the 7 part ;)

Ah yes, how could I forget my own philosophy so quickly, distract the masses with emotion and you can push anything upon them without their noticing ;)

Seven is a most attractive young lady, is she not ;D
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2006, 10:02:20 PM »

Seven is a most attractive young lady, is she not ;D

Oh, yeah!  ;D The only redeeming part of that whole lousy program!

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Offline Ebor

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2006, 05:26:41 PM »
GIC

Actually I wouldn't have a problem with that, I just don't like the "cold and logical" thing. If we were all cold and logical....

Now why would logical necessarily go along with "cold"? There's Data to look at as an example and I may have logic and reason in net discourse, but I don't think that I'm "cold".   ;)

Ebor
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 05:27:34 PM by Ebor »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2006, 05:43:38 PM »
For those who feel like researching more on the subject, Spike TV (for those lucky enough to have cable) is doing a weeklong "marathon" of Voyager episodes: something like 9am to 6 or 7 pm all week.  For those who feel like seeing a lot of them in a short period of time.
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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2006, 06:54:50 PM »
For those who feel like researching more on the subject, Spike TV (for those lucky enough to have cable) is doing a weeklong "marathon" of Voyager episodes: something like 9am to 6 or 7 pm all week. 

HOLD ME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!  Wow, it looks like I'll have to put off my Marlon Brando signature collection (I'm not kidding!) DVDs viewing for a whole week now.

LOL.  :D

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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2006, 06:59:19 PM »
The geeks are getting out of control....time to swing this back to normalcy.  So, how do you all like the new James Bond? 

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2006, 07:05:34 PM »
Lol, James Bond is normal? This is a franchise with female names like pus... er, nevermind, I probably can't say that on a Christian forum. ;)

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2006, 07:08:18 PM »
For those who feel like researching more on the subject, Spike TV (for those lucky enough to have cable) is doing a weeklong "marathon" of Voyager episodes: something like 9am to 6 or 7 pm all week.  For those who feel like seeing a lot of them in a short period of time.

Bleh.  How about I just break out all of my Battlestar Galactica episodes from iTunes, instead?
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Offline dantxny

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2006, 08:36:11 PM »
The geeks are getting out of control....time to swing this back to normalcy.  So, how do you all like the new James Bond? 

It's because there's an outlet for it to finally be discussed.  This is taboo in public. 
As we all know, there are three things you, especially men, cannot talk about or modify in public

1.) The fact that it's been more than 48 hours since you last bathed
2.) You can't remember someone's name
3.) You like Star Trek.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 09:54:39 PM by dantxny »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2006, 09:39:23 PM »
It's because there's an outlet for it to finally be discussed.  This is taboo in public. 
As we all know, there are three things you, especially men, cannot talk about in public
...
3.) You like Star Trek.

Which is really quite ironic considering the cultural impact it has had, I guess there are just a large number of 'closet trekkies.'
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2006, 11:05:17 PM »
I have a Klingon Dictionary on my bookshelf, as well as background in both Vulcan and Ferengi linguistics.

I am such a trekkie.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2006, 11:11:59 PM »
I used to watch the Next Generation in the mid-90s, and I admit to still liking the show a lot. I enjoyed the movies (or most of them). But I never got into Trekkie-ism too much.

I am, however, a huge Ringer! (Though I don't buy all the junk and wear FRODO LIVES tee-shirts---I think Tolkien would have been appalled at such crass commercialism.)

Offline Ebor

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2006, 04:49:25 PM »
In the SF conventions I used to go to BC (before children) "trekkie" is looked on as derogatory from an non-fan (like in news articles.)  The proper term is "Trekker".  :) 

And yes there's "Ringers" (which I'm also a geek on, as some here may have noticed).

And if we're going to get to mention other areas of fandom what about "Babylon 5"?  That was a terrific series.

Ebor

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Offline Ebor

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Re: Star Trek: Voyager
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2006, 04:53:19 PM »
I have a Klingon Dictionary on my bookshelf, as well as background in both Vulcan and Ferengi linguistics.

I am such a trekkie.

Ka' Pla!

 ;)

Ebor
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.