OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 02, 2014, 09:03:04 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The ex-CSB  (Read 2099 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
The young fogey
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,732


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« on: April 23, 2003, 05:58:49 PM »

Brought up on the 'A Return to Modesty' thread in Reviews:

Quote
There is this former CSB parish in town and I have yet to see any of the females of that parish NOT dress like a Mennonite (with those horrible overall-like dresses.  gunnysack? and scarves on their heads).  They're not monastics for crying out loud.  I'd like to actually see what they look like.

Worthy of a thread of its own, since you brought up the ex-CSB, is the whole trajectory and disintegration of this 'cult' of the late Fr Seraphim (Rose) - pretty disillusioning, but not really his fault since he lived and died in the actual Orthodox Church, specifically ROCOR. From Orthodoxy to apocalyptic/charismatic*-tinged 'true Orthodoxy' outside of actual Orthodoxy, back to Orthodoxy again, but dispersed. Although I have a page about him on my site since he had lots of good things to say (so do Catholic traditionalists, who say a lot of the same things for Christ and against modern culture), I am not a part of this 'cult'. Some people have gone public about being disillusioned and turned off Eastern Orthodoxy because of their experience with this group (most publicly 'Frank Kimball' in New Oxford Review). The (ex-)CSB have been compared to extreme convert ROCOR 20 years ago (around the time they left ROCOR) in the rigidity and other possible mistakes in approach they might have. (Said of them by actual converts in ROCOR.) Then again, I've met them personally (including the famous Fr Herman), when they were still technically outside Eastern Orthodoxy under a schismatic Greek bishop, and based on that brief meeting found them an appealing witness, very charming, alive and 'countercultural' in a good way. They might be a good influence on their new homes, the OCA and the Serbian and Bulgarian Churches, and vice versa.

*As in 'follow the leader with the holy vibe and not an actual Orthodox bishop', not as in glossolalia, etc.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2003, 06:03:08 PM by Serge » Logged

David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2003, 11:51:19 PM »

I don't know much of the history of the CSB, but I do know a former CSB monk who is now a married OCA priest(he left more than 10 years ago).  It is very interesting the paths some of us take...
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,423


« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2003, 02:45:01 AM »

If any of you have heard of Vincent Rossi, he usually attends my parish (I think he is an ex CSBer).  There is a couple with two kids who are former CSBers.  I think they are a great influence (and our parish, OCA vice versa on them).  They help provide balance.
Logged
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 976


« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2010, 06:21:43 PM »

There seems to be a lot of internet chatter about the HOOM/CSB cult & the OCA recently.
Has anyone here visited one the former CSB parish now part of the OCA?

Or read this book which I am thinking of ordering:
The Odyssey of a New Religion: The Holy Order of Mans from New Age to Orthodoxy by Phillip Charles Lucas (ISBN 0253336120)
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2010, 06:48:15 PM »

There seems to be a lot of internet chatter about the HOOM/CSB cult & the OCA recently.
Has anyone here visited one the former CSB parish now part of the OCA?

Or read this book which I am thinking of ordering:
The Odyssey of a New Religion: The Holy Order of Mans from New Age to Orthodoxy by Phillip Charles Lucas (ISBN 0253336120)


I met a good number of them some months ago. They are good people. Shoot, I might try and even marry one of them. Who knows! But yeah, I don't see anything wrong with them.






ICXC NIKA
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2010, 06:55:26 PM »

What does HOOM and CSB stand for?  Who/what are they?
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2010, 07:02:01 PM »

What does HOOM and CSB stand for?  Who/what are they?

Holy Order of Mans and Christ the Savior Brotherhood.


A New Age / splinter Roman Catholic group from the 1960's that eventually found Orthodoxy. Some of them are hippie like......long hair and long beards down to earth cool people. They use to have alot of soup kitchens and homeless shelters:
http://www.raphaelhouse.org/ (Raphael House of San Fransisco)

When they became Orthodox, alot of the former members began to leave and do their own things....as seen with the other Raphael House in Oregon.

Orthodoxy in this country is in dire need of soup kitchens, homeless shelters, orphanages......etc. This group is excellent in helping the poor.


I don't like the word "cult" for I find the anti-cult movement of the 1970's as dangerous and going to the other extreme in eradicating vigor and conviction in religious groups and marginalizing them in societies by creating a stigma by giving them the name "cult", and once the secular state got it's hands in the anti-cult movement then it became a strong arm for atheistic extreme secularism to keep religious groups in line and to seriously regulate them.

Cults are malleable and thus can be either good or bad......healthy or harmful. As long as there is accountability involved and right doctrine.....in the case of Orthodoxy.....you know us......then I really don't see a problem. And in regards to groups that are not Orthodox.....as long as they are not harming society in a negative way and as long as they have some kind of accountability then they shouldn't go the way of Jim Jones and them. And thus shouldn't be a major problem either.
 
But yes, the Jim Jones issue caused a number of the newer groups of the 1960's to re-evaluate themselves. HOOM was one of those groups, and eventually they decided to become Orthodox.






ICXC NIKA
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 07:28:47 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,254



« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2010, 09:56:06 PM »

There seems to be a lot of internet chatter about the HOOM/CSB cult & the OCA recently.
Has anyone here visited one the former CSB parish now part of the OCA?

Or read this book which I am thinking of ordering:
The Odyssey of a New Religion: The Holy Order of Mans from New Age to Orthodoxy by Phillip Charles Lucas (ISBN 0253336120)


I met a good number of them some months ago. They are good people. Shoot, I might try and even marry one of them. Who knows! But yeah, I don't see anything wrong with them.






ICXC NIKA
My priest and his wife were former HOOM. They are best Christian examples I have seen. They came into communion with Met. Joseph of the Bulgarian Diocese after things went awry with the schismatic GOA bishop in the late 80s, I believe.
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2010, 03:19:04 AM »

What does HOOM and CSB stand for?  Who/what are they?

Holy Order of Mans and Christ the Savior Brotherhood.


A New Age / splinter Roman Catholic group from the 1960's that eventually found Orthodoxy. Some of them are hippie like......long hair and long beards down to earth cool people. They use to have alot of soup kitchens and homeless shelters:
http://www.raphaelhouse.org/ (Raphael House of San Fransisco)

When they became Orthodox, alot of the former members began to leave and do their own things....as seen with the other Raphael House in Oregon.

Orthodoxy in this country is in dire need of soup kitchens, homeless shelters, orphanages......etc. This group is excellent in helping the poor.


I don't like the word "cult" for I find the anti-cult movement of the 1970's as dangerous and going to the other extreme in eradicating vigor and conviction in religious groups and marginalizing them in societies by creating a stigma by giving them the name "cult", and once the secular state got it's hands in the anti-cult movement then it became a strong arm for atheistic extreme secularism to keep religious groups in line and to seriously regulate them.

Cults are malleable and thus can be either good or bad......healthy or harmful. As long as there is accountability involved and right doctrine.....in the case of Orthodoxy.....you know us......then I really don't see a problem. And in regards to groups that are not Orthodox.....as long as they are not harming society in a negative way and as long as they have some kind of accountability then they shouldn't go the way of Jim Jones and them. And thus shouldn't be a major problem either.
 
But yes, the Jim Jones issue caused a number of the newer groups of the 1960's to re-evaluate themselves. HOOM was one of those groups, and eventually they decided to become Orthodox.






ICXC NIKA

Thanks!  Smiley
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 10:45:01 AM »

I've experienced them to be culty, insular, controlling, and creepy. Most of the women in these parishes dress as if they're living in the 19th century. They seem strangely obsessed with "old timey" things completely unrelated to Orthodoxy. I was "forbidden" from certain actions outside of church (hanging out with the daughter of another priest...and I had his blessing to do so!) if I wanted to "be part of their community", as they put it. All in all, as an average American you can't walk into one of these parishes without feeling uncomfortable at some point, or getting the false impression that Orthodoxy has something to do with 19th century American standards of modesty.

A friend of mine attempted to go to Alaska with their St. Innocent's Academy- on the way, this friend witnessed the group call a teenage parishioner a "harlot" and try to give her an exorcism because she was flirting with boys. My friend quickly left them and returned to normalcy.

Avoid at all costs.
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
thetraditionalfrog
Traditional Frog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 197



« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2010, 01:16:52 PM »

Many parishes made up of former HOOM (now CSB) parishes were part of the Archdiocese of Vasiloupolis (Metropolitain PANGRATIOS) until about 2000. Many were then received by the Serbian and Bulgarian Orthodox respectfully. I should know as the parish I attend is a former HOOM mission. I was never connected with HOOM as I joined only in the late '90s being a convert from the Catholic church. I'll also be on record as not being or having been a member of CSB, only the parish. Now, that being said....

The HOOM was a monastic/semi-monastic organisation. The members were "ordained" clerics, and also took monastic vows. After the dissolusion of HOOM and the entry of the majority into Orthodoxy, many of these people maintained the simpler, plain, old fashioned lifestyle they had grown accoustomed to. Also, the HOOM, was very much drawn to the mystical side of religion, and this is what attracted many to Orthodoxy.... its mystical side. They were introduced to Orthodoxy by Fr Herman Podmoshensky (former ROCOR, now Serbian monk), thus they were given to the monastic "side" of Orthodoxy rather than the lay/parish "side". This may explain why some people feel a sense of cultishness associated with CSB parishes. Yes, there were some "characters", and problems within the HOOM, but that isn't useful or relevant to the point at hand.

While I am familiar with the St Innocent Academy, I have not heard of this incident regarding the girl (so I can't in fairness comment directly). As for being told who you should have or not have as friends, this strikes me as overboard and unfortunate. Both of these incidents seem to me over zealousness, which all people, myself included are prone to at times. Yes, I have seen the mentioned simple plain dress on some in my parish, but not all.

In my parish, many who dress plainly for church, are dressed different when I have seen them outside the church setting. Many dress (especially the youth) fairly modern, yet keeping it modest. Example: We have one boy who dresses up properly up for liturgy, but when I get to the church hall for refreshemnts he is usually in shorts, t-shirt and plimsolls. Like any Orthodox parish, I think it may vary... some are more "plain folk" than others. I must say however, that my parish has definitely changed and become more open, while maintaining a healthy modesty and traditionalism, meeting the world, ocassionally "dancing with it", yet not fully embracing it either. To me that is Christian and healthy. We are to live in the world, but yet not be of it. Orthodoxy provides exactly this path.

Also, some people choose the old fashioned or simple for personal reasons or likes unrelated to religion, like myself. I must admit though that while religion (not Orthodoxy initially) had some inspiration in this regard it wasn't the full reason. In the last year, I have moderated my stance in some areas, trying to find a happy medium between the traditional and modern. Not as easy as I thought.

That is my parish as it currently stands. I can't really speak for life in other CSB parishes, as I have visited relatively few (of any Orthodox churches, actually), being I haven't had a car until recently. Most other former HOOM people I know are clergy and monastics, so that wouldn't be a fair assessment of laymen or parish life.

A personal aside: When I first came to my parish, the semi-monastic flavour was very strong, and I felt that I had to live this way to be Orthodox. I actually did the "great purge" and rid my flat of all things that didn't exist prior to the advent of modernity. I even cut the breakers and used hurricane lamps. I kept the cooker and refrigerator running as I had no other good options for food storage and prep. I burnt out completely after three weeks and left Orthodoxy for a short time. It took me over a year to restore what I discarded. When I spoke to my priest about this he told me I am not a monastic, and shouldn't try to be one. He also informed me that Orthodoxy doesn't forbid the use of modern appliances and technology, including television and multimedia. He simply advised prayer, discernment, and a healthy moderation. He also advised me to be about my spiritual and temporal needs, and not worry about what other Orthodox are doing or not doing, think or don't think. He informed me there is no Orthodox "secret police". Now when someone at my parish gives this type of "directive", I take it only as opinion or advise, and not a direct order.

I'm sorry if some have had a bad experience at a CSB parish, or felt out of place.... it happens at other Orthodox parishes as well. I know this from a personal expierience. Hopefully the above information will be of help in understanding why these good people are the way they are.

Despite their shortcomings, (as many have mentioned) the CSB have done much for Orthodoxy, not just in this country, but throughout the world, particularly in Russia.



Logged

“For the honorable Cross and golden freedom!” -Sv Lazar

 “Give up everything for Christ, but Christ for nothing!” -Sv Sava
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2010, 10:48:11 PM »

Many parishes made up of former HOOM (now CSB) parishes were part of the Archdiocese of Vasiloupolis (Metropolitain PANGRATIOS) until about 2000. Many were then received by the Serbian and Bulgarian Orthodox respectfully. I should know as the parish I attend is a former HOOM mission. I was never connected with HOOM as I joined only in the late '90s being a convert from the Catholic church. I'll also be on record as not being or having been a member of CSB, only the parish. Now, that being said....

The HOOM was a monastic/semi-monastic organisation. The members were "ordained" clerics, and also took monastic vows. After the dissolusion of HOOM and the entry of the majority into Orthodoxy, many of these people maintained the simpler, plain, old fashioned lifestyle they had grown accoustomed to. Also, the HOOM, was very much drawn to the mystical side of religion, and this is what attracted many to Orthodoxy.... its mystical side. They were introduced to Orthodoxy by Fr Herman Podmoshensky (former ROCOR, now Serbian monk), thus they were given to the monastic "side" of Orthodoxy rather than the lay/parish "side". This may explain why some people feel a sense of cultishness associated with CSB parishes. Yes, there were some "characters", and problems within the HOOM, but that isn't useful or relevant to the point at hand.

While I am familiar with the St Innocent Academy, I have not heard of this incident regarding the girl (so I can't in fairness comment directly). As for being told who you should have or not have as friends, this strikes me as overboard and unfortunate. Both of these incidents seem to me over zealousness, which all people, myself included are prone to at times. Yes, I have seen the mentioned simple plain dress on some in my parish, but not all.

In my parish, many who dress plainly for church, are dressed different when I have seen them outside the church setting. Many dress (especially the youth) fairly modern, yet keeping it modest. Example: We have one boy who dresses up properly up for liturgy, but when I get to the church hall for refreshemnts he is usually in shorts, t-shirt and plimsolls. Like any Orthodox parish, I think it may vary... some are more "plain folk" than others. I must say however, that my parish has definitely changed and become more open, while maintaining a healthy modesty and traditionalism, meeting the world, ocassionally "dancing with it", yet not fully embracing it either. To me that is Christian and healthy. We are to live in the world, but yet not be of it. Orthodoxy provides exactly this path.

Also, some people choose the old fashioned or simple for personal reasons or likes unrelated to religion, like myself. I must admit though that while religion (not Orthodoxy initially) had some inspiration in this regard it wasn't the full reason. In the last year, I have moderated my stance in some areas, trying to find a happy medium between the traditional and modern. Not as easy as I thought.

That is my parish as it currently stands. I can't really speak for life in other CSB parishes, as I have visited relatively few (of any Orthodox churches, actually), being I haven't had a car until recently. Most other former HOOM people I know are clergy and monastics, so that wouldn't be a fair assessment of laymen or parish life.

A personal aside: When I first came to my parish, the semi-monastic flavour was very strong, and I felt that I had to live this way to be Orthodox. I actually did the "great purge" and rid my flat of all things that didn't exist prior to the advent of modernity. I even cut the breakers and used hurricane lamps. I kept the cooker and refrigerator running as I had no other good options for food storage and prep. I burnt out completely after three weeks and left Orthodoxy for a short time. It took me over a year to restore what I discarded. When I spoke to my priest about this he told me I am not a monastic, and shouldn't try to be one. He also informed me that Orthodoxy doesn't forbid the use of modern appliances and technology, including television and multimedia. He simply advised prayer, discernment, and a healthy moderation. He also advised me to be about my spiritual and temporal needs, and not worry about what other Orthodox are doing or not doing, think or don't think. He informed me there is no Orthodox "secret police". Now when someone at my parish gives this type of "directive", I take it only as opinion or advise, and not a direct order.

I'm sorry if some have had a bad experience at a CSB parish, or felt out of place.... it happens at other Orthodox parishes as well. I know this from a personal expierience. Hopefully the above information will be of help in understanding why these good people are the way they are.

Despite their shortcomings, (as many have mentioned) the CSB have done much for Orthodoxy, not just in this country, but throughout the world, particularly in Russia.


Thanks for posting this, and yes, they are good people! I have been thinking about courting one for marriage. I love women that don't wear make up and not afraid to wear a head covering in church!

I spoke with one here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUtgjwLcGNs (talking with one of them)

I have met a number of former HOOM from different parts of the country. They are really good people!










ICXC NIKA
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 10:59:05 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
thetraditionalfrog
Traditional Frog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 197



« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2010, 11:10:02 PM »

jnorm - I'm glad your experience with the CSB has been positive. I agree with you about the make up and head coverings, although I don't judge and nit pick either. Make up can be alright in some cases if applied according to the norm "less is more". It seems that most female televangelists (at least the few I've seen over the years) never heard of this rule, especially when it comes to eyeshadow. What's with that anyway?

Anyway, the CSB have contributed much to Orthodoxy, despite their faults and short comings.
Logged

“For the honorable Cross and golden freedom!” -Sv Lazar

 “Give up everything for Christ, but Christ for nothing!” -Sv Sava
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2010, 11:34:47 PM »

Many parishes made up of former HOOM (now CSB) parishes were part of the Archdiocese of Vasiloupolis (Metropolitain PANGRATIOS) until about 2000. Many were then received by the Serbian and Bulgarian Orthodox respectfully. I should know as the parish I attend is a former HOOM mission. I was never connected with HOOM as I joined only in the late '90s being a convert from the Catholic church. I'll also be on record as not being or having been a member of CSB, only the parish. Now, that being said....

The HOOM was a monastic/semi-monastic organisation. The members were "ordained" clerics, and also took monastic vows. After the dissolusion of HOOM and the entry of the majority into Orthodoxy, many of these people maintained the simpler, plain, old fashioned lifestyle they had grown accoustomed to. Also, the HOOM, was very much drawn to the mystical side of religion, and this is what attracted many to Orthodoxy.... its mystical side. They were introduced to Orthodoxy by Fr Herman Podmoshensky (former ROCOR, now Serbian monk), thus they were given to the monastic "side" of Orthodoxy rather than the lay/parish "side". This may explain why some people feel a sense of cultishness associated with CSB parishes. Yes, there were some "characters", and problems within the HOOM, but that isn't useful or relevant to the point at hand.

While I am familiar with the St Innocent Academy, I have not heard of this incident regarding the girl (so I can't in fairness comment directly). As for being told who you should have or not have as friends, this strikes me as overboard and unfortunate. Both of these incidents seem to me over zealousness, which all people, myself included are prone to at times. Yes, I have seen the mentioned simple plain dress on some in my parish, but not all.

In my parish, many who dress plainly for church, are dressed different when I have seen them outside the church setting. Many dress (especially the youth) fairly modern, yet keeping it modest. Example: We have one boy who dresses up properly up for liturgy, but when I get to the church hall for refreshemnts he is usually in shorts, t-shirt and plimsolls. Like any Orthodox parish, I think it may vary... some are more "plain folk" than others. I must say however, that my parish has definitely changed and become more open, while maintaining a healthy modesty and traditionalism, meeting the world, ocassionally "dancing with it", yet not fully embracing it either. To me that is Christian and healthy. We are to live in the world, but yet not be of it. Orthodoxy provides exactly this path.

Also, some people choose the old fashioned or simple for personal reasons or likes unrelated to religion, like myself. I must admit though that while religion (not Orthodoxy initially) had some inspiration in this regard it wasn't the full reason. In the last year, I have moderated my stance in some areas, trying to find a happy medium between the traditional and modern. Not as easy as I thought.

That is my parish as it currently stands. I can't really speak for life in other CSB parishes, as I have visited relatively few (of any Orthodox churches, actually), being I haven't had a car until recently. Most other former HOOM people I know are clergy and monastics, so that wouldn't be a fair assessment of laymen or parish life.

A personal aside: When I first came to my parish, the semi-monastic flavour was very strong, and I felt that I had to live this way to be Orthodox. I actually did the "great purge" and rid my flat of all things that didn't exist prior to the advent of modernity. I even cut the breakers and used hurricane lamps. I kept the cooker and refrigerator running as I had no other good options for food storage and prep. I burnt out completely after three weeks and left Orthodoxy for a short time. It took me over a year to restore what I discarded. When I spoke to my priest about this he told me I am not a monastic, and shouldn't try to be one. He also informed me that Orthodoxy doesn't forbid the use of modern appliances and technology, including television and multimedia. He simply advised prayer, discernment, and a healthy moderation. He also advised me to be about my spiritual and temporal needs, and not worry about what other Orthodox are doing or not doing, think or don't think. He informed me there is no Orthodox "secret police". Now when someone at my parish gives this type of "directive", I take it only as opinion or advise, and not a direct order.

I'm sorry if some have had a bad experience at a CSB parish, or felt out of place.... it happens at other Orthodox parishes as well. I know this from a personal expierience. Hopefully the above information will be of help in understanding why these good people are the way they are.

Despite their shortcomings, (as many have mentioned) the CSB have done much for Orthodoxy, not just in this country, but throughout the world, particularly in Russia.


Thanks for posting this, and yes, they are good people! I have been thinking about courting one for marriage. I love women that don't wear make up and not afraid to wear a head covering in church!

I spoke with one here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUtgjwLcGNs (talking with one of them)

I have met a number of former HOOM from different parts of the country. They are really good people!










ICXC NIKA

Again, certain forms of dress appeal more to some than others. But to conflate that particular form of dress or style with Christian piety, in my opinion, has little to do with Christianity. The problem with these parishes is the fact that certain norms of behavior *are* presented as authentic Orthodox lifestyle.
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
thetraditionalfrog
Traditional Frog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 197



« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2010, 12:41:23 AM »

Bogoliubtsy- I understand what you are saying, and by and large I agree. I have seen this phenomenon not only amongst some Orthodox, and not just those of the CSB, but amongst traditionalist (traditional Latin Mass) Catholics as well in my time with them. This phenomenon also seems to be more common amongst converts and reverts in both as well (crazy convertitis).

It is present in my parish, but not at the level it was when I first joined in the late '90s. Interestingly, I have never ever seen them judge or nit pick a person who visited or joined for not dressing according the "plain folk" uniform. I agree that to declare the "plain folk" form of dress is the only acceptable form or you're not really Orthodox is not proper. I also don't think telling another Orthodox or catechumen what technologies they can or can't use, or what entertainments they have to avoid to remain Orthodox in good standing isn't proper. (I do however agree with them that certain amusements and forms of dress are unbecoming for any Christian, not just an Orthodox.) It's seems to be a case of zeal not according to knowledge. They mean well, and many times do have a point, but they go overboard. As I mentioned in an earlier post I felt that I had to do what I did ("the great purge") to really be Orthodox. As my priest later told me I need to be about my salvation and temporal needs, and not worry about what other Orthodox are doing or not doing, think or don't think. This and using good prayer, discernment, and moderation.

To my understanding and research, the Orthodox Church has never definitively ruled on any of these things, as has the Roman Catholic Church (many Roman Catholics are unaware of these rulings since Vatican II however). The way we dress and conduct ourselves should be guided by a healthy Orthodox world view and the moral teaching of the church. None of that requires being old fashioned, frumpy, Amish-like, "Little House on the Prairie" like, Victorian, or puritanical, et al. You can be perfectly Orthodox in a T-shirt and shorts provided they are clean and modest. I feel that people should dress up for church on Sundays and Feasts, but that is exactly that, my opinion... not Gospel truth.

In the words of the prayer of St Ephraim "help me to see my own faults, and judge my brother not".
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 12:53:38 AM by thetraditionalfrog » Logged

“For the honorable Cross and golden freedom!” -Sv Lazar

 “Give up everything for Christ, but Christ for nothing!” -Sv Sava
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2010, 01:04:34 AM »

Bogoliubtsy- I understand what you are saying, and by and large I agree. I have seen this phenomenon not only amongst some Orthodox, and not just those of the CSB, but amongst traditionalist (traditional Latin Mass) Catholics as well in my time with them. This phenomenon also seems to be more common amongst converts and reverts in both as well (crazy convertitis).

It is present in my parish, but not at the level it was when I first joined in the late '90s. Interestingly, I have never ever seen them judge or nit pick a person who visited or joined for not dressing according the "plain folk" uniform. I agree that to declare the "plain folk" form of dress is the only acceptable form or you're not really Orthodox is not proper. I also don't think telling another Orthodox or catechumen what technologies they can or can't use, or what entertainments they have to avoid to remain Orthodox in good standing isn't proper. (I do however agree with them that certain amusements and forms of dress are unbecoming for any Christian, not just an Orthodox.) It's seems to be a case of zeal not according to knowledge. They mean well, and many times do have a point, but they go overboard. As I mentioned in an earlier post I felt that I had to do what I did ("the great purge") to really be Orthodox. As my priest later told me I need to be about my salvation and temporal needs, and not worry about what other Orthodox are doing or not doing, think or don't think. This and using good prayer, discernment, and moderation.

To my understanding and research, the Orthodox Church has never definitively ruled on any of these things, as has the Roman Catholic Church (many Roman Catholics are unaware of these rulings since Vatican II however). The way we dress and conduct ourselves should be guided by a healthy Orthodox world view and the moral teaching of the church. None of that requires being old fashioned, frumpy, Amish-like, "Little House on the Prairie" like, Victorian, or puritanical, et al. You can be perfectly Orthodox in a T-shirt and shorts provided they are clean and modest. I feel that people should dress up for church on Sundays and Feasts, but that is exactly that, my opinion... not Gospel truth.

In the words of the prayer of St Ephraim "help me to see my own faults, and judge my brother not".


I think my gripe boils down to the fact that it didn't work for *me*. It's a certain flavor that appeals to some, but definitely not most. I just don't care for traditional folk dancing and milk-maid dresses. Anyone not into that culture who walks in from the outside most likely won't feel comfortable, especially in a major city where this CSB parish was located. I realize most will not be judged on their "modern" dress, but it is an environment which most will walk away from because it seems so out of touch. Add to that the requests for certain behavior I mentioned above and well, ...it just didn't work out for me. But, I do realize it takes all kinds. I should mention that my CSB contact came when they were still under Pangratios and extended into this parish's reception in the Bulgarian Church. I felt there were quite a few holdovers from the old days, including liturgical forms I've never since seen outside a CSB parish. As time goes on I'm sure they've learned to adapt to newcomers not looking to pretend they're 19th century peasants or those looking for a completely insular community. I think I experienced CSB at a pivotal moment that, I hope, is in the past.
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
thetraditionalfrog
Traditional Frog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 197



« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2010, 01:48:05 AM »

Bogoliubtsy- Your feeling regarding the CSB parish are completely understandable. There have been several people/families who joined my parish only to move to another parish with in a few years. Most left on good terms with no hard feelings, the parish simply didn't work for them. As for ethnic folk dancing and festivals, my parish does none of that as only a small percentage have ethnic Orthodox heritage. The few that do are Ukrainians and Russians who have joined since about 2001. There is a local folk dance group that has use of the church hall on some Friday evenings, but they are a seperate local organisation and nothing to do with the parish. My parish has a Christkindlmarkt the first weekend of every December, but it isn't ethnic, just food (fasting included) and small sales booths.

I have found that like food and book shops, Orthodox parishes also have different flavours. Some are more modern with shorter services outside Liturgy, and some are more old world or monastic in flavour with longer services, more mention/emphasis of fasting, and people dressed in old world or milk maid clothing. Indianapolis is blessed to have I believe now seven Orthodox parishes. Some parishes also fall in between, with a mixture in dress types. I can speak with almost dead certainty that none of the "plain folk" dressers in my parish were pretending or thought they were living in pre revolutionary Russia.

Bogoliubtsy, I can however see where you or anyone could find the old world/semi-monastic flavour you describe overwhelming or even intimidating, especially so for someone living in a large, modern, and diverse urban/metropolitan area. I felt this way to a certain extent and ultimately I ended up outside Orthodoxy for a time with a near empty flat. With the help of a good Orthodox friend and my priest, I have found a way to make it work for me. Yes, I agree those parishes aren't for everyone.

I also felt my parish was more insular when they were under Metr Pangratios, but stated to to moderate after joining the mainstream of Orthodoxy and some ethnic Orthodox joined from other parishes and from out of the area. It also helped that the parish has had a small stream of converts, mostly under 40's in the past two/three years. They are not part of the "old guard" and tend to do much more of their own thing. Yet the parish is able to maintain it's unity and not split into two camps.

I am very curious about the unusual liturgical forms you speak of. I know that after being received by Metr. JOSEPH (Bulgarian) a few changes were made in my parish, but they were relatively minor.

All in all, I feel that the CSB are learning to adapt to the main-stream and the world a bit more. They may go slow at times, but that is so they aren't consumed by it.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 01:50:21 AM by thetraditionalfrog » Logged

“For the honorable Cross and golden freedom!” -Sv Lazar

 “Give up everything for Christ, but Christ for nothing!” -Sv Sava
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.096 seconds with 44 queries.