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Author Topic: My Daughter's Menorah  (Read 9371 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 15, 2006, 11:26:30 PM »

Upon picking my daughter up today at her private pre-school the teacher gave me a menorah that she had made (along with other children). This did not sit well with me so as calmly as possible I handed it back to the teacher and said, thank you, but we are not of the Jewish faith. OH the teacher replied "this is part of diversity training." Have you Jewish students in this school I asked? (I knew the answer - none, we live in a predominantly white Anglo-Saxon neighborhood where even Orthodox Christians are an anomoly) The answer from the teacher "I don't know."

Now the teacher is a great teacher and I realized that it was her superiors who probably put her up to this. I assured her that we were pleased with her and that I was not angry, just annoyed. I informed her that we were Christian and that Christ's birth will be celebrated in our home. She asked if we were Roman Catholic and I said no- Russian Orthodox. (I got a puzzled look with a smile. ) Diversity, why don't I come in and teach on Orthodox Christmas traditions (fat chance.)

Now, lest some of you think I am anti-Semitic you can stop right there. Trite as it may sound I have several Jewish friends and business associates whom I am sure would be equally annoyed if their children brought home a creche with a baby doll inside representing Jesus.

Comments. Was I too harsh? Should I have let it go? Should I talk to the superiors? My wife would have let it go probably because at my daughter's age it is meaningless. My daugher gets in arguements with her Catholic friends over the correct way to cross yourself.

Welkodox is not permitted to comment on this  Grin

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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2006, 11:44:43 PM »

Was it a Menorah or a Hanukiyah? There is a difference.
The Hanukiyah is what is used at Chanukah for the Festival of Lights on the Eight Crazy Days of getting socks and bad ties after lighting the one Hanukiyah candle each night. It has nine arms for nine candles, eight and one in the center for the lighting candle.
The Menorah is a seven armed candelabra used on Holy Days except Chanukah.

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Panagiotis
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2006, 11:51:18 PM »

If you had $695 you could have bought one from: http://easternchristiansupply.biz/products.cgi/c37/c96/c73/40753



It could have been a great opportunity to discuss the many traditions of Jewish origin which we use in our Churches (Psalmody, the Seven Branch Sanctuary Lamp, the Great Incensing, the Curtain of the Iconostasis, the two Seraphim over the Altar........)

But more importantly, your daughter made it herself. Now she feels as though she has done something so bad that you, her father, reject it.
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2006, 12:02:07 AM »

George,

I think that is a bit harsh.

aserb,

I can understand why you did what you did, at the same time, I don't think I would have returned the Menorah (or whatever it is called - which is not the point).  The truth is, I think it is more important to raise our children to be secure in what they are (Orthodox) rather than worry about symbols or items from other faiths.

George does raise a good point when he talks about shared customs and symbols, which is natural between Judaism and Christianity.  I remember the first time I went to a Jewish Service, I was stunned at how similar the Cantor sounded to an Orthodox Priest.

Here's what I would have done.

Brought it home and explained to your daughter the differences between Orthodox Christianity and Judaism.  I would have also requested a "sit down" with the principle and inquired if they had any intention of teaching something about Orthodoxy Christianity and if not, why not.  If she was willing, maybe you could have come in and taught something about Orthodoxy, or brought in your Priest or someone in the know.

For me, I decided (this year) I was going to send out "Christmas" cards only to all of my family, friends and co-workers.  Normally, I send politically correct "holiday" cards to non-Christians.  Not so this year and to my surprise the experiment did not go well.  I was told by TWO Jewish partners not to send the Christmas cards in the future.  I found it especially perplexing as the one who had the greater problem with the card is a lobster eating, swine chomping, non-observant Jew, who found "Christmas Cards" the route to assert his Judaism.  I suppose to each their own.

Don't beat yourself up over what happened.  Just be confident in the Truth and that the Truth will be as clear to your daughter as it will be to you.
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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2006, 12:23:28 AM »

I think that is a bit harsh.
Oh dear! You're right! It came out pretty harsh. Sorry aserb!
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2006, 12:37:53 AM »

I did a little searching and lo and behold - John 10:22 mentions the celebration of Hanukkah.  The refrences for the story in the Old Testament are 1 Maccabees 4:36-59 and alluded to in 2 Maccabees 1:18.  Since Hanukkah is a big topic right now, rather than fight it, embrace it as a way to talk about symbolism and prophecy in the Old Testament as pointing towards Christ in the New Testament.  

Added on edit... since it seems to be an hot topic elsewhere, my handy old NAB proved very useful for looking this up and I'm still not sure why the translation is considered to be THAT bad.
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« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2006, 12:57:55 AM »

HI guys:

No offenses taken at all. I should note that my daughter is four years old and while I was returning the Menorah (as I was told that it was) my daughter was busy running after a friend to play tag. Later on she never missed the item.

SouthSerb. I send politically correct "holiday cards" but to known Christian clients and associates I add Merry Christmas to the sentiment.

My young daughter has already attended a Bat Mitzah service and spent most of the time not paying attention - same as liturgy. ALthough in liturgy I try to point out the beauty of the church to her, the icons, etc, and keep her as interested as possible.
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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2006, 01:31:27 AM »

Jesus celebrated Hanukkah. (See John 10:22-23).
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« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2006, 02:50:50 AM »

Judaism is not only a faith but a cultural heritage. Is having anything culturally Jewish in your home something sinful in Orthodoxy? I have heard yes and no. Which is it? Sorry for going a bit off topic but it does relate as to the Menorah/Hanukiyah as being something "evil" it seemed at first when approached with a four year old daughter and was quick to reliquish this item away from his hands like it was radio-active. No offense Aserb; its just how it looked on paper. I understand its not a racial issue, but it does make me laugh a little.

I am Jewish by birth. I was raised in a mixed family of Jews and Protestants, oddly with Roman Catholic relatives and Mormons. Holidays were fun. When I converted to Orthodoxy, I just added a flavor to the mix. But having any of the cultural practices, such as Chanukah, considered sinful? I already have the answer from my Spiritual Father and local Parish Priest, but I am asking you guys this question. What do you think?

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2006, 07:18:49 AM »

If they were learning about Hanukah, that should mean that they will learn about Christmas. You should be glad! Many schools cut everything religious out. If they celebrate these holidays at all, they tend to celebrate them all. Whether or not the classroom has a mix of kids, the kids WILL be exposed to children of different religions eventually. There's nothing wrong in teaching them about the other religions. It only helps point out the truth of the Orthodox Faith. Making a paper menorah or eating latkes or playing dreidle is not the same thing as reciting the Jewish prayers or something.

This WILL continue to come up throughout her educational career. You should think about how you want to handle now. I have taught students who were conservative whatevers and whose parents told me they were not to celebrate any holidays, including birthdays. So, in my classroom, I never forced them to participate if they were silent or sat out, but neither did I stop them from participating if they themselves chose to.

Right now, I'm doing activities for Christmas, Kwanzaa, Chanukah, and some secular winter things. I have that mix of kids in my classroom--Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, non-religious, etc. I explain each holiday truthfully--but I try not to make any kid feel unwelcomed. When one of my 4th graders announced to me that he doesnt celebrate Christmas or Chanukah (he's muslim), I said ok, and moved on.

Some parents choose to not allow their kids to participate in activities for different religious' holiday. Most of what they learn is about culture and history, I see nothing wrong in teaching that. If it goes beyond that into the practice of religion, say, if I were Jewish and the kids were REQUIRED to participate in a Nativity scene play, I would speak up. You, as a parent, have the right to determine in what your child will participate, and you should do so BEFORE she comes home with a menorah. And rest assured that teachers know this area of conflict and most try to tread with careful steps.
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« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2006, 07:33:54 AM »

Jews have played an important part in our country's history. If I'm not mistaken, some of our founding fathers were Jewish. The menorot should be appreciated at least for its symbolic value, in celebrating the Jewish people's victory over oppression.
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« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2006, 09:22:39 AM »

***gag***
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2006, 09:43:34 AM »

***gag***

What is there to gag about? It's in the book of Maccabees.
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« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2006, 03:07:11 PM »

Matthew:

With all due respect come back to this post when you are a father.
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« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2006, 08:58:56 PM »

In elementrary school, we sang a Chanukka song for music class. My parents did not object, considering that we also sang Christmas songs in class, and that it's good to learn about different cultures. It's not like Judaism is a fringe cult, it's played an important part in our nation's history.
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2006, 01:23:30 AM »

ASerb,

I felt the same way as you did when my children had to create paper Menorah's and learn about this Jewish feast day in public school. But I figured it was an opportunity for me to share our faith in the class. So I asked the teacher if I could read the children a story about the night of Christ's birth and bring in our little creche (by the way, seven of the 20 kids were Jewish). The teacher really couldn't say no since she had shared the Jewish religious story of Hanukkah.

We were even allowed to do more when our elementary school chose Greece as their country of study for the cultural arts day our elementary school celebrates once a year. My sister and I quickly volunteered to create the "museum" of cultural artifacts from Greece. She set up a simple bed and table with linens from Greece she borrowed from her father-in-law who is Greek to show the simplicity of life of the average Greek home of long ago. We then borrowed an unused iconostasis from our parish and set it up against one wall. Behind the iconostasis a CD player played the chants of the monks from Simonpetra while the children were in the museum. We enlisted a Greek Orthodox priest and an Antiochian Orthodox priest to come in and be our "docents" to Orthodoxy. They brought in their vestments and had our sons light the incense in the censer...the museum felt like a mini-Orthodox chapel. One of the priests handed out icon cards if the children answered his religious questions correctly. It is amazing that we didn't get in trouble but Orthodoxy is still exotic enough that most non-Christians do not feel threatened by it. One Roman Catholic mother said her boys loved their icon cards and put them above their beds.
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2006, 10:51:46 PM »

Tamara:

What a great story!  Instead of whining an complaining you took action.

Mt daughter is only four. I don't know how much the kids n her school will get out of it.

Dan
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« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2006, 12:43:24 AM »

ASerb,

I chose an age appropriate nativity story that was written for kindergartners. You would be surprised at how much the little ones understand. I let them hold the creche figures while I read the story. St. Nicholas feast day would also be another good way to share our Orthodox traditions during this time of year when the schools focus the spotlight on the traditions of Hanukkah, Ramadan, and the made-up holiday of Kwanzaa (I really wonder how many African-Americans actually celebrate this one Huh).
Anyway....Orthodox Christianity does not evoke the negative cononatations that evangelicalism tends to bring out in liberal educators...I have found we can get away with alot...incense, icons, chanting, etc...for some reason it seems to appeal to them.

sincerely, Tamara
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« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2006, 01:52:58 PM »

I'm not a religious diversity person.
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« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2006, 02:04:29 PM »

ozgeorge

Good response!

I think that the reaction was appropriate enlight of the very reason the teacher explained as to why they were making the objects in the first place. "Diversity"

We are required by "diversity" to respect the differences we share with others culturally, religiously, racially etc. This does not mean that we are to allow others to force feed their cultural or religious ideas and traditions into us. Diversity is a careful balance of social intercourse which embraces all envolved in a proceess that grows little by little.

Racial discrimination is more tolerated today in many countries, communities, neighborhoods than "diversity".

I would have allowed my daughter to take the menorah home. I would have had her study its meaning and what aspect of it she is connected to. We Orthodox keep forgetting that we are part of the heritage of Israel and much of our pratices are common though have different meanings.

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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2006, 10:16:58 AM »

ozgeorge

 We Orthodox keep forgetting that we are part of the heritage of Israel and much of our pratices are common though have different meanings.



Not me.  I am afraid that I do not have a lot of respect for the Jewish religion at this time in history.  Yes, it prepared the way - 2000 YEARS AGO.  Since the coming of Christ, Judaism is nothing more than "a synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9), and the practicers of that religion nothing more than children of the Devil (John 8:44).  This is why the Canons forbid us to have any contact with Jewish religious customs and ceremonies that have not been sanctified by the Orthodox Church.  This does not mean that we practice intolerance when we refuse to participate in other religion's practices.  I recognize the right of all people to worship God in the way they choose, and I would do nothing to prevent THEM from worshiping whatever they want to call a god.  However, for me and my house, we serve the Lord.  I don't need their idols or their symbols anywhere near MY house or MY family.  What they do in their own house is up to them.  And also, this is not "anti-semitism" or some other such rot.  I have nothing against Jewish people as people and, in fact, admire the contributions that they have made to nearly every facet of science and art.  I just have no use for their religion, and I don't want it thrust on me or my children as some form of demonic syncretism.  I have no use for those who deny Christ, be they Jew or Muslim or Godless Communists.  I believe Aserb acted correctly as a confessor of the Faith.
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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2006, 07:12:04 PM »

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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2006, 09:37:54 PM »

Thank you all for your replies. I do not want you all to get carried away now onto other topics. I failed to mention that although my daughter is enrolled in a private school, the school does not own its own building. It rents a building from a Methodist church. In the lobby of the building, upon entrance and you cannot miss it, is a beautiful porcelin figurine set of the Nativity. I guess in my rant I forgot that every day everyone that enters her school building is faced with the Nativity scene. oops  Kiss my bad. (.... tip toe away quietly now . . . . .)
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2006, 12:23:30 AM »

I am reminded of the seder suppers my old church at university held every year. http://www.staugustine-uf.org/

It was a lovely taste of what Jesus and his disciples would have done 2,000 years ago, not to mention ENORMOUS fun, especially singing the Jewish songs!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder

It also deepened my experience of Holy Week. If I don't find one at a church near me, I might be tempted to make a visit to Gainesville and attend.


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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2006, 12:29:07 AM »

Christians should not be participating in seder suppers.
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« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2006, 01:14:40 AM »

We were all Christians participating, and the whole supper was imbued with Christian significance. I felt like a Messianic Jew who knew the end of the story, that Jesus would complete the story.

I think many of those participating gained a greater understanding of the story of the Israelites and of how much the Old Testament prefigures Christ. Some people ignore that part of the Bible as "not about us."
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« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2006, 01:25:32 AM »

Participating in such events is wrong in the same way it is wrong to hold Zen Retreats, which unfortunately some Catholic parishes do as well.  It doesn't matter if every single person there is Christian.

The Seder dinner is specifically inappropriate though.  The songs sung such as the Nirtzah, or the leaving out of the cup, are about hope for the comming Messiah.  They are sung by people who believe the Messiah has not come, and the Rabbinical Judaism of today is not related to the Judaism of the Second Temple.

To participate in a Seder service is basically like celebrating Pascha with a Pascha never happened party.  I would be amazed if there is an Orthodox priest anywhere who would grant dispensation to attend such an event.
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« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2006, 02:05:14 AM »

First of all, the seder is modified somewhat for Christian use. Secondly, it is not a liturgical action but a re-enactment, a demonstration held in the building adjoining the church. No one is actually waiting for the coming of a Messiah---we know he has already come, which is why we re-enact it (the very meal, many believe, at which Jesus instituted the Eucharist). The whole point of the meal is to celebrate God's deliverance of his people.

It is a very educational and spiritually fruitful experience. The focus is on God's providence and Jesus's deliverance throughout. It is not at all comparable to Zen meditations.
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« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2006, 02:25:29 AM »

Participating in such events is wrong in the same way it is wrong to hold Zen Retreats, which unfortunately some Catholic parishes do as well.  It doesn't matter if every single person there is Christian.

The Seder dinner is specifically inappropriate though.  The songs sung such as the Nirtzah, or the leaving out of the cup, are about hope for the comming Messiah.  They are sung by people who believe the Messiah has not come, and the Rabbinical Judaism of today is not related to the Judaism of the Second Temple.

To participate in a Seder service is basically like celebrating Pascha with a Pascha never happened party.  I would be amazed if there is an Orthodox priest anywhere who would grant dispensation to attend such an event.

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace,

During Advent, in the west, we sing in the Liturgy "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel and ransom captive Israel" not because Christ hasn't come but because we await His Return!

With His Second Coming 'in mind' can you not see a place for the Seder Dinner for Christians?

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« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2006, 02:58:37 AM »

Quote
The Seder dinner is specifically inappropriate though.

Of course it is, they drink the blood of Christian children at those.   
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« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2006, 03:02:51 AM »

Of course it is, they drink the blood of Christian children at those.   
I didn't think you would be the kind of person who believes in and would spread the Jewish Blood Libel Νεκτάριος.
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« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2006, 10:45:25 AM »

Whoaaaaaa !!!!

I love all you guys but we're getting off of the track here with the Seder dinners.

My initial rant was not theologically motivated it was more politically motivated. The push for diversity, in my opinion, seems to be crowding out traditional Christianity. That's my beef. The menorah that my daughter made at school just set off my pet pieve. My daugher will fully learn about Christmas (both east and west celebrations) and I fully expect her to learn of or about other faiths when she is older and can look at them with a critical eye. I am not an ant-Semite.

So let's move on!!  Wink
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« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2006, 12:16:57 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace,

During Advent, in the west, we sing in the Liturgy "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel and ransom captive Israel" not because Christ hasn't come but because we await His Return!

You are right. We sing the original Latin version of this song at mass each Sunday of Advent. The words date from the 8th century.
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« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2006, 01:00:04 PM »

We were all Christians participating, and the whole supper was imbued with Christian significance. I felt like a Messianic Jew who knew the end of the story, that Jesus would complete the story.

I think many of those participating gained a greater understanding of the story of the Israelites and of how much the Old Testament prefigures Christ. Some people ignore that part of the Bible as "not about us."

There are several problems with this line of thinking.  First off, I am an Orthodox Christian, not a Messianic Jew who knows the end of the story.  In fact, the whole term "Messianic Jew" is bovine effluent.  As an Orthodox Christian, I am neither Jew nor Greek (nor Barbarian, as my ancestors).  I am part of the Body of Christ.  A Jew who converts to the Orthodox faith is part of the body of Christ.  Baptism makes us a new creation.  I am not a Messianic Barbarian, but a new creation.

Also, if you need defunct traditions to gain a greater understanding of how the Old Testament prefigures Christ, you have missed the boat when it comes to the Orthodox Faith.  The entire Liturgical cycle is a reinactment of the history of Salvation, from the fall of Adam to the Ressurection of our Lord Jesus Christ.  The readings during Great Lent encompass the greater part of the Old Testament.  The Psaltar is the hymnal of the Church.  What is lacking in the True Faith that needs to be filled with heathen ceremonies in direct violation of the Canons of the Church?  How can a Jewish dinner even remotely compare to the actual presence of the Holy Spirit at the Liturgy?  How can any dead ceremony ever compare to being "surrounded by a cloud of witnesses" at the Liturgy?  We do these people no favors and show them no love when we try to validate their traditions and empty rituals.  Instead, we should stand fast to our own faith and provide a beacon to them.  Invite them to find the fullfillment of all that the Prophets foretold.  "What they have longed for many a year has been fullfilled in Glory here."  It is our duty to confess this Faith.  No man will ever live long enough to learn all that has been left for us by the Fathers, Apostles and Confessors.  Life is too short to dabble in other religion's symbols.
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« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2006, 01:04:11 PM »

Enough already with the Seder and Jewish ritual talk oy gevaltz! Roll Eyes
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« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2006, 01:10:02 PM »

Also, if you need defunct traditions to gain a greater understanding of how the Old Testament prefigures Christ, you have missed the boat when it comes to the Orthodox Faith.

Thus spake Saint Punch.  Roll Eyes Give it a rest.
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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2006, 01:23:50 PM »

Also, if you need defunct traditions to gain a greater understanding of how the Old Testament prefigures Christ, you have missed the boat when it comes to the Orthodox Faith. 

Perhaps you have missed the boat on reading comprehension.
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2006, 09:12:26 PM »

Quote
My initial rant was not theologically motivated it was more politically motivated. The push for diversity, in my opinion, seems to be crowding out traditional Christianity. That's my beef. The menorah that my daughter made at school just set off my pet pieve. My daugher will fully learn about Christmas (both east and west celebrations) and I fully expect her to learn of or about other faiths when she is older and can look at them with a critical eye. I am not an ant-Semite.

Dan, I completely am with you on this one and feel the same way. Luckily we have a principal who supports parents who are Christians by not ignoring us. Today we went to my son's holiday carol concert at his school. The kids sang the usual Santa Christmas carols along with a Hanukkah medley. The principal (a faithful RC) ended the concert by playing "Silent Night" on the guitar with the whole school singing in the background (it is a public school in the SF bay area in case anyone is wondering).
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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2006, 10:02:24 PM »

Thanks Tamara

Also thanks for not going off on a tangent  Grin
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« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2006, 01:32:37 AM »

 Wink Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2006, 06:42:30 PM »

Not me.  I am afraid that I do not have a lot of respect for the Jewish religion at this time in history.  Yes, it prepared the way - 2000 YEARS AGO.  Since the coming of Christ, Judaism is nothing more than "a synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9), and the practicers of that religion nothing more than children of the Devil (John 8:44).  This is why the Canons forbid us to have any contact with Jewish religious customs and ceremonies that have not been sanctified by the Orthodox Church.  This does not mean that we practice intolerance when we refuse to participate in other religion's practices.  I recognize the right of all people to worship God in the way they choose, and I would do nothing to prevent THEM from worshiping whatever they want to call a god.  However, for me and my house, we serve the Lord.  I don't need their idols or their symbols anywhere near MY house or MY family.  What they do in their own house is up to them.  And also, this is not "anti-semitism" or some other such rot.  I have nothing against Jewish people as people and, in fact, admire the contributions that they have made to nearly every facet of science and art.  I just have no use for their religion, and I don't want it thrust on me or my children as some form of demonic syncretism.  I have no use for those who deny Christ, be they Jew or Muslim or Godless Communists.  I believe Aserb acted correctly as a confessor of the Faith.


I find your sense of removal from the Jews from the above post quite powerful.

Todays Jews have very little to do with the Biblical people and their religion. Most people who refer to themsleves as Jews today have little in common with the people of scripture in every aspect. It is very very hard to see todays Jews as Jews. When I think "Jew" in all seriousness I can only imagine the 2000 years ago nation and before.

I donot agree with how you worded yourself but I think that if I understand what you mean we both may share the same Orthodoxy.

We must not become partakers with blasphemers and heritics. We must keep our faith pure and untainted as possible removing all aspects of worldy admirations lusts and concerns. WE are responsible to teach our children the same or face obsorbing their sin do to our negligence. We are not to be selective or palcative on this. Its not intented to hurt but to enrich us with a fullness of faith in God alone through Christ.

It is for our protection.

Be careful then...

Especially if you are like the large majority of people on this forum. Too many of us except the ways of "our" heritage and traditions MORE than the strict adherence to the faith of the Holy Church.

Do you have a big green tree in your house that you just MUST have to make the "holiday" cheerful and so that the kids can have a "good" expereince? How about a big snowman on the lawn and a wreath on the door? You have missle toe hanging over the door ways? How many times have you told your kids or some other kids about santa clause and the north pole? Do you sing or let your kids or somebody elses kids "frosty the snowman" or "rudolph the red nose reindeer"..?

These questions are not directed at you but I ask them to make a point and that is that WE reject the symbols of Jews and except tradition of heathens and pagans. (Huh?)

NO offense. I know that everybody loves the "christmas" traditions I named to the point that most of these practices and symbols have been given honorary christianization. Even some of our priests support the activities. I know that they are time honored

Fine.....

But anybody who checks the background for any of these traditions will find that they all creeped into the church from local pagan and or heathen traditions NOT from the traditions of the Holy Fathers and that these traditons even today provide nothing except a since of fun and excitement regardless of what Holy thing they intend to mean or demonstrate.

And the poorer you are the less you are able to participate in these traditions.

SAD....Christ came to this world for the poor man, the down troden. It seems that many societies has started "toy" drives so that the "poor" can have a christmas. Oh!....toys are Christmas?

This tradition of toy drives are designed so that the rich and well off can feel good with all the gluttony and excess they indulge in at this time.

Its all sad and pityful.

The poor really need to know about God and His advent. His blessed birth from the Holy Virgin Mary mother of God. This is what we should be giving to the poor...all people. NOT toys and a turkey dinner. In my mind we should be giving these things everyday as our Lord taught us.

I want us to be pure on this. If we keep the Menorah from our children from reasons stated. Then we should keep the whole sale pagan images of trees, elvs, reindeer, the north pole etc. from them to. From the whole commercial industry of western christmas.

Which is worse?

At lease the Menorah has real biblical significance which can teach about the advent.

The trees, and snowmen and the whole situation we entrench our kids and ourselves in teaches absolutely nothing about our God and His salvation plan. Just nice christianized traditions with a pagan past.

If I had to choose I will take the Menorah over a tree any day as long as the subject is seriously about real religious "symbolism".

Please remember:

Love your neigbhor as yourself.

This does not mean be Jewish or muslim but struggle to respect those around us hoping and praying that we all may be one in Christ.

May God have mercy on us all..Amein

Dcn Amde

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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
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« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2006, 06:54:32 PM »

Thanks Tamara

Also thanks for not going off on a tangent  Grin

Since when to threads NOT wander off-target LOL  Grin
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« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2006, 07:36:03 PM »

Wow.  I'm impressed.  This is the absolute first time that I've heard collecting stuff to give the poor described as invented to make rich people feel good.  Next Amdetsion will be telling us that medicine was invented by healthy people so they could feel good about not being sick and feel superior to ill people.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2006, 07:55:28 PM »

Amdetsion

If you read an earlier post of mine, my objection to  the Menorah was politcal not theological
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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2006, 06:04:42 AM »

Amdetsion

If you read an earlier post of mine, my objection to  the Menorah was politcal not theological


I never could see the correctness of mixing politics and religion. These two are oil and water.

I am showing as simple as I know how that we have more to concern ourselves with than just the Menorah as it relates to the your post your that I previuoly quoted. I was not knocking teaching your kids or kids about santa and reindeers and all the other so-called christmas traditions. That is not my place. You must make the choice. I can only say that these traditions are lies invented outside the church. These traditions are older than the church. As such if you keep your daughter from the Menorah than you might think closer about the things you already do allow her to be envolved in. Many children get all the "christmas" cheer but never learn about God. This should really concern a man like you.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 06:10:09 AM by Amdetsion » Logged

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
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