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Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 9599 times) Average Rating: 0
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pensateomnia
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« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2006, 12:18:36 PM »

I wonder if we could get some other Orthodox Christians who actually embrace the teachings of the Church to weigh in on the matter?

Why? Were the thread exclusively about Orthodox Christian ideas on abortion, it would have ended long ago.
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« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2006, 01:00:41 PM »

Then you are willing to dispense with the illusion that abortions are often done to save the life of the mother?

I never said they were often done for that reason, only that it is a possibility.
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lubeltri
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« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2006, 05:46:06 PM »

I believe the essence of our disagreement is over the significance of Liberty. Yes, human life is a great and important thing, but a much lesser thing than human liberty. And liberty is often an imposition against life, but an imposition that is essential to giving life meaning and value. Thus it makes sense that at times lives must be sacrificed or placed in jeopardy in order that we may maintain or increase our liberty. Now, I would argue that in the case of rape the right and liberty of a woman to free herself from the effects of the said trauma and violence (if and only if she so chooses) to be greater than the right to life of any life that resulted from that act of violence. As to whether or not this argument applies to the overwhelming majority of abortions, I am not so sure, today there is ample opportunity to make use of birth control and use preventive measures; thus, your average abortion terminates a pregnancy that results from irresponsibility and neglect, if you deliberately cause your situation it is a bit more difficult to argue that you have the right to take another's life in order that you may be free from it.

But I guess that's the kind of response you would generally expect from one who has an (attributed) quote from Voltaire in his signature Wink

I understand and respect your point of view, though I have a different perspective on the relative value of life and liberty.
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Anastasios
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« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2006, 05:57:36 PM »

Quote
Yes, human life is a great and important thing, but a much lesser thing than human liberty.

Nope, that's not the Orthodox teaching. Liberty means nothing if life is not supported unconditionally. I don't understand how you can put one person's liberty over another's in this situation.

Do you even have any clue what abortion does to women? My former priest used to work with this thing called Project Rachel where they worked with women who had had abortions (some for rape) and it just tore them up.  You are suggesting that it is possible for abortion to result in something positive in a woman's life. No!  Your ideas have real world applications that you do not seem to care about.

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« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2006, 07:13:13 PM »

I understand and respect your point of view, though I have a different perspective on the relative value of life and liberty.

And the CHurch seems to, too.... Something about giving up one's Earthly freedom and liberty for the Heavenly Stuff.... You know, the liberty and freedom that will benefit oneself at the Resurrection from the Dead and the New World Order that will come from Christ's reign on Earth.
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« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2006, 07:59:18 PM »

I never said they were often done for that reason, only that it is a possibility.
And if certain legal restrictions were placed on abortion, isn't it likely that allowances would be made for such a possibility?

I've yet to hear any pro-Lifers in America suggest otherwise.
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« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2006, 08:06:48 PM »

And if certain legal restrictions were placed on abortion, isn't it likely that allowances would be made for such a possibility?

I've yet to hear any pro-Lifers in America suggest otherwise.

I would hope so, and as I understand it, yes they do feel the same way. I only posted what I did because lubeltri said, "There can be no exceptions to the murder of innocents." No exceptions to me includes not even for the life of the mother.

BoredMeeting, I feel we are not far off on our positions on abortion, if off any at all.

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« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2006, 09:01:19 PM »

Here is one woman who did not believe in abortion to save her own life:

http://www.saintgianna.org/
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« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2006, 10:01:37 PM »

I wonder if we could get some other Orthodox Christians who actually embrace the teachings of the Church to weigh in on the matter?

While my moral philosophy may, at times, slightly diverge from the traditionally held views in some Orthodox communities, I believe you will find my theology to be quite Orthodox...even if I do state it in neo-platonic terms.
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« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2006, 10:10:54 PM »

Do you even have any clue what abortion does to women? My former priest used to work with this thing called Project Rachel where they worked with women who had had abortions (some for rape) and it just tore them up.  You are suggesting that it is possible for abortion to result in something positive in a woman's life. No!  Your ideas have real world applications that you do not seem to care about.

Oh, I do care about the real world applications and research on the subject (and yes, I've done it, mainly to upset a Pastoral Theology instructor Grin) demonstrates that most women have no psychological trauma resulting from an abortion. Are there some that do? Certainly, there are a great many who do, but even more who do not. Which is why I desire to neither mandate nor prohibit abortion in the case of rape. Each case is different and each person must consider their own conditions for themselves, and that is all I advocate, a personalized and individualized approach, placing freedom over uncompromising, absolute dogmas.

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« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2006, 10:13:09 PM »

And the CHurch seems to, too.... Something about giving up one's Earthly freedom and liberty for the Heavenly Stuff.... You know, the liberty and freedom that will benefit oneself at the Resurrection from the Dead and the New World Order that will come from Christ's reign on Earth.

Yes, to sacrifice one's freedom is a great and noble thing, a far greater and more noble thing than sacrificing one's life. But the same nobility is not found in the imposing of this sacrifice on others.
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« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2006, 10:15:41 PM »

I hate the idea of people being able to choose for themselves moral boundaries. And I think that it is wholly unOrthodox to suggest they can or should.

As for your research, I have heard that cited before, but I also have heard prolifers cite different facts. I suppose it would be difficult to measure "psychological trauma" in the first place, but clearly it does spiritual trauma and so what you counsel could very well lead people to hell.  Remember, if a woman has an abortion (or her husband or boyfriend pressures her into that) she, he, or they will have to stand in front of the person they murdered on judgment day and answer the question "why?"  Your free for all morality doesn't help people come to grips with the consequences of their choices.
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« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2006, 01:36:12 AM »

If a person does not actively choose his own moral path, that simply means that he has ceded that right to someone else (a priest, a church father, a biblical writer--but not God, unless of course God is speaking to you clearly and directly). Either way, a person has made a choice. Whether he (actively) chooses his morality or (passively) grants the right to someone else makes no difference: he has still decided for him/herself.
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« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2006, 02:48:08 AM »

I am completely pro-life. I don't even think that if the mother's life is in danger that the baby should be killed. Do you think that it's right to kill one person to save another person's life? No. It is never right to do evil that good may come of it. To kill one person to save another's life means that the person who lived's life will be tainted. It has been bought by the blood of another.

And incest, rape etc. Haven't you ever heard the old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right?" A woman is raped. Okay, that's a grave sin. Does that fact mean that she can commit the sin of murder against her own child? Of course not. No matter what wrongs have been done to you, you may not take a human life.

If a woman knows that if she gets pregnant, her life will be in danger, then as far as I know she must not have sex with her husband at all. They must completely abstain. I know that the Roman Catholic Church teaches this (and I mean the traditional Catholic Church, not the pseudo-Catholic modernist Church filled with the "spirit of Vatican II") but I've never heard the Orthodox position on it.

No good can come of an evil act.
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« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2006, 03:04:20 AM »

I am completely pro-life.

Does that mean that you oppose unprovoked war, the death penalty, and poverty?
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« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2006, 05:17:33 AM »

I know that the Roman Catholic Church teaches this (and I mean the traditional Catholic Church, not the pseudo-Catholic modernist Church filled with the "spirit of Vatican II")

I might point out that Pope Paul VI, the same pope who promulgated the revised 1970 Roman rite, also wrote Humanae Vitae. The official Church teaching remains the same (praise be to God), though it has made many enemies with these unpopular positions.
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« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2006, 05:21:38 AM »

Does that mean that you oppose unprovoked war, the death penalty, and poverty?

I would hope that everybody opposes poverty. Christians can disagree about how to go about opposing it.

That, like the two other issues you mention, allow a certain amount of discretion (I personally take the more liberal political position on these issues, but I recognize the value and legitimacy of other approaches).

However, issues like murder are necessarily non-negotiable.
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« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2006, 05:50:37 AM »

However, issues like murder are necessarily non-negotiable.

I would agree with you. But according to some, it's only "collateral damage" when the innocent are killed overseas.
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« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2006, 09:44:31 AM »

I would agree with you. But according to some, it's only "collateral damage" when the innocent are killed overseas.
Are the innocent the targets?

With abortion, they certainly are.
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« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2006, 09:46:00 AM »

Does that mean that you oppose unprovoked war, the death penalty, and poverty?
Of course.

Which of those do you support?
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« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2006, 11:00:51 AM »

Are the innocent the targets?

That doesn't make a difference when war is waged for no good reason.
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« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2006, 11:06:14 AM »

That doesn't make a difference when war is waged for no good reason.

So you accept that sometimes war can be justified, and that the deaths of some civilians in such a war is tragic but unavoidable?
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« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2006, 02:44:45 PM »

Quote from: Matthew777
That doesn't make a difference when war is waged for no good reason.

So you accept that sometimes war can be justified, and that the deaths of some civilians in such a war is tragic but unavoidable?

I hope no one attempts the exceedingly lame come back of asserting that there is never a "good reason" for war. One would think that the Hilter Appeasement-types had learned their lessons in September of 1939.
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