OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 26, 2014, 06:03:09 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 9650 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
MichaelArchangelos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 103



« on: December 11, 2006, 06:26:49 PM »

I know that the Orthodox Church teaches that abortion is equal to murder. However, if the life of the mother was in danger, would an abortion be acceptable? A Catholic priest told me that often the doctors are able to save the mother's life without killing the baby, but they convince her to have an abortion because it is easier. Would the Orthodox Church allow a mother to have an abortion if she was in danger of dying if her baby was to be born? Would everything else that could possibly be done to save the life of the mother be done?
Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2006, 06:38:08 PM »

Here's something from the GOArch website you may find of interest:

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp

Quote
Generally stated, fornication, adultery, abortion, homosexuality and any form of abusive sexual behavior are considered immoral and inappropriate forms of behavior in and of themselves, and also because they attack the institution of marriage and the family. Two representative statements, one on abortion and another on homosexuality, from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America follow. They are from the Twenty-Third Clergy-Laity Congress held in Philadelphia in 1976.

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2006, 06:38:25 PM »

Would the Orthodox Church allow a mother to have an abortion if she was in danger of dying if her baby was to be born?

By "allow" are you saying that her actions would constitute no sin? I'm pretty sure the answer would be "no."  You're toying too much with technicalities and legalisms which, to my mind, only serve to comfort the person who did consent to this act. As a corollary, a soldier in war, justified or not, would still be automatically excommunicated even if he killed someone in self-defense.  I'd really like a priest to weigh in on all of this.

Scamandrius
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2006, 06:44:00 PM »

"As a corollary, a soldier in war, justified or not, would still be automatically excommunicated even if he killed someone in self-defense."

That is not necessarily true.  Soliders were required to do penance for killing in Byzantine times but that is not necessarily practiced today.

As for abortion to save the life, it seems to me we have the same view as Catholics--there is a difference between aborting a baby and doing an operation to save a mother's life that results in the death of a fetus (unintended consequence).

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2006, 06:52:07 PM »

Quote
I'd really like a priest to weigh in on all of this.

Well, Fr Chris did weigh in--were you posting your reply at the same time he was posting his?

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2006, 06:56:41 PM »

Regardless of the reason, any abortion is spiritually damaging to both the mother and the father. Let's say there was something that actually fit the definition given on the GOArch website, where the 'preponderance of medical evidence' shows that somehow the child needs to be aborted so that the mother can live, and continue her life with her other children or whatever.

This doesn't mean that the surviving parents just go skipping along their merry way. They too are  deeply wounded, and need the Church to help them reassemble their life and get back in their relationship with God. Here the Mysteries of the Church are most needed....maybe the Eucharist should be withdrawn from, or maybe greater emphasis should be given to His reception, based on the pastoral needs of the couple.

The fact is that a situation like this is so sensitive, that there can be no 'one size fits all' solution. The paragraph submitted from GOArch summarizes the position of the Church, which then is implemented by the priest with the couple for the spiritual benefit of all involved.

And, yeah---Scamandrius' input was just a few seconds after mine.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 06:58:17 PM by FrChris » Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2006, 08:51:44 PM »

"As a corollary, a soldier in war, justified or not, would still be automatically excommunicated even if he killed someone in self-defense."

That is not necessarily true.  Soliders were required to do penance for killing in Byzantine times but that is not necessarily practiced today.

Anastasios,

During my catechesis, this topic actually came up and I was told by my priest that this was an automatic excommunication and that the excommunicant must be readmitted to the church only through a lengthy time of repentance and at the discretion of the bishop. 
Again, that's what I was told.

Bless, Father!

I think I came in 23 seconds after you.  The problem I see is that since abortion is also a political issue (which only confuses it more) we are more prone to discuss things in terms of rights and legal nuances and thus reduce a wrong into tragedies and such.  I know that the canons of the Church are not to be enforced with a rigidness, but when we deal with life issues, is it not all the more important that we be absolutely resolved to call abortion evil and wrong, without exception?  Otherwise, we do what the proponents of abortion always say to do; namely, that it is a personal issue and outside of our concern.

Scamandrius
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2006, 09:22:13 PM »

"As a corollary, a soldier in war, justified or not, would still be automatically excommunicated even if he killed someone in self-defense."

That is not necessarily true.  Soliders were required to do penance for killing in Byzantine times but that is not necessarily practiced today.

Sometimes...Basil goes out of his way to assure us that a soldier who kills in war is guilty of no wrong doing; in fact, failing to do one's duty as a soldier and kill in defence of the Empire would be a sin, a crime against both the Empire and the Church (I want to say that's from either Balsamon or Zonaras, but as I dont have them in front of me, I cannot verify). With that said, Basil does recommend a penance of 3 years (relatively short as far as Basil's penances go) under the assumption that the soldier may be distraught because of the necessity of his actions. It is purely a medicinal penance, with no actual sin attached, and would only be applicable in such people as Basil has in mind.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2006, 09:27:23 PM »

During my catechesis, this topic actually came up and I was told by my priest that this was an automatic excommunication and that the excommunicant must be readmitted to the church only through a lengthy time of repentance and at the discretion of the bishop. 
Again, that's what I was told.

I fear that the concept of a latae sententiae excommunication is foreign to the Orthodox Church.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,357


metron ariston


« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2006, 09:29:46 PM »

I fear that the concept of a latae sententiae excommunication is foreign to the Orthodox Church.

As is the genetive absolute to Latin, but "latae sententiae" is about as close as it gets!!! Curses on the first declension, which tantalizes me with its identical genetive and dative!!!

(P.S. You know it's Finals Week when...)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 09:38:23 PM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2006, 11:10:30 PM »

As is the genetive absolute to Latin, but "latae sententiae" is about as close as it gets!!! Curses on the first declension, which tantalizes me with its identical genetive and dative!!!

(P.S. You know it's Finals Week when...)

There is no gentive absolute in Latin, only ablative absolutes and the always dubious, accusative absolute.

Just remember, "After verbs of giving, entrusting, showing tell, always ring the dative bell!"

Kind words from a latin teacher.

Scamandrius
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,357


metron ariston


« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2006, 11:14:40 PM »

There is no gentive absolute in Latin, only ablative absolutes and the always dubious, accusative absolute.

That's kinda the point of the post.

Good to know there's another Latin teacher on OC.net!!
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2006, 12:13:02 AM »

That's kinda the point of the post.

Sorry, I didn't take enough care to understand what you wrote!  You were right!  Mea Culpa!  Grin

Scamandrius
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2006, 01:05:20 AM »



Bless, Father!

I think I came in 23 seconds after you.  The problem I see is that since abortion is also a political issue (which only confuses it more) we are more prone to discuss things in terms of rights and legal nuances and thus reduce a wrong into tragedies and such.  I know that the canons of the Church are not to be enforced with a rigidness, but when we deal with life issues, is it not all the more important that we be absolutely resolved to call abortion evil and wrong, without exception?  Otherwise, we do what the proponents of abortion always say to do; namely, that it is a personal issue and outside of our concern.

Scamandrius, I don't know what to say---whether you choose to selectively read what I wrote along with the GOArch statement, or if in your perfect world there will never occur people who make bad judgments and mistakes, and then repents.

All I can say is this....the last thing a couple who somehow had to choose to lose their child needs, thereby fitting the description given, is someone quoting the canons and thinking the world is completely black and white.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2006, 04:20:14 PM »

Scamandrius, I don't know what to say---whether you choose to selectively read what I wrote along with the GOArch statement, or if in your perfect world there will never occur people who make bad judgments and mistakes, and then repents.

Bless, Father!

With all due respect, Father, I was merely commenting on how easy it has become for many (not for you specifically or anyone else for that matter) to look at this issue through a political lens and, from that, mitigate the harm that abortion causes for all involved.  I do not, nor would I ever,  want a woman who has dealth with this to remain outside of the church forever, especially when she needs Her, for the life of repentance.  The same goes for myself for all the wretched things I have done (Lord, have mercy x40). 

Scamandrius

Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2006, 04:25:08 PM »

I'm against abortion, except in the cases of rape, incest, and when a woman's life is in danger, but there are more issues that one should consider than abortion. Being "pro-life" shoudn't just mean that you are anti-abortion, but also anti-war, anti-death penalty, and in favor of social programs that protect the poor and vulnerable, the weakest among us.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2006, 06:54:52 PM »

Being "pro-life" shoudn't just mean that you are anti-abortion, but also anti-war, anti-death penalty, and in favor of social programs that protect the poor and vulnerable, the weakest among us.

The issue here was abortion, not the other topics you mentioned.  You are confusing the issues.

My apologies if I sound like a moderator of the board; I know that is not my job.

Scamandrius
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 06:56:35 PM by scamandrius » Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2006, 08:34:46 PM »

Matthew,
You're coming close to changing the topic into a political one.  Please refrain from doing so.
Daniel
Global Moderator
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2006, 01:05:03 AM »

Quote
I'm against abortion, except in the cases of rape, incest, and when a woman's life is in danger

Out of curiosity, on what basis are you pro-life? Most Christians I know hold to that position because they believe that "life begins at conception". Would that be accurate for you as well? The reason I ask is, some of the above quote seems inconsistent with the idea that a genuine, human life begins at conception. Should a pregnancy be terminated because of the sins of the parents (e.g., incest)? Or how about the sin of one parent (e.g., rape)? If life begins at conception, then what is the difference between killing a baby while in the mother and killing the baby a few days after it's been born? Is there some existential boundary that is crossed when a baby pops out, where they become somehow more "alive" after exiting the mother? Does a rapist being the father of the baby devalue the intrinsic worth of the child, so much so that terminating the pregnancy is justified, whereas other sins of the parents (e.g., drug use, causing a drug-addicted newborn) would not give such a justification? Fwiw, I am pro-life.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2006, 01:48:45 AM »

Out of curiosity, on what basis are you pro-life? Most Christians I know hold to that position because they believe that "life begins at conception". Would that be accurate for you as well? The reason I ask is, some of the above quote seems inconsistent with the idea that a genuine, human life begins at conception. Should a pregnancy be terminated because of the sins of the parents (e.g., incest)? Or how about the sin of one parent (e.g., rape)? If life begins at conception, then what is the difference between killing a baby while in the mother and killing the baby a few days after it's been born? Is there some existential boundary that is crossed when a baby pops out, where they become somehow more "alive" after exiting the mother? Does a rapist being the father of the baby devalue the intrinsic worth of the child, so much so that terminating the pregnancy is justified, whereas other sins of the parents (e.g., drug use, causing a drug-addicted newborn) would not give such a justification? Fwiw, I am pro-life.

I could not have said it better myself. Bravo!

There can be no exceptions to the murder of innocents.
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2006, 01:54:16 AM »

Out of curiosity, on what basis are you pro-life?

I would say that I'm pro-life by considering a broad range of responsibilities that we have as human beings, rather than overemphasizing just one. But I'm not even certain whether the term "pro-life" means anything anymore, given that those in power who use it don't really do much about protecting human life.

Should a pregnancy be terminated because of the sins of the parents (e.g., incest)?

I'd be worried about the possible deformities that could arise from brother-sister or father-daughter coupling, and the trauma that a mother would undergo as a result of giving birth to your own brother or sister.  

Or how about the sin of one parent (e.g., rape)?

That depends on how early in the pregnancy, in my opinion. I don't know what is more traumatic, being forced to give birth to the child of the man who brutally raped you, or undergoing abortion itself.  
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 01:55:53 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2006, 02:33:55 AM »

Quote
I don't know what is more traumatic, being forced to give birth to the child of the man who brutally raped you, or undergoing abortion itself. 

First off, let me add a disclamer that I would NEVER want to be put in that position nor anyone else, especially someone whom I love.  That said, in the time I volunteered at a Pregnancy Centre, several cases actually showed the opposite.  Mothers were worried to death about whether their children would look like the rapist or the mental anguish, but once the child was born and they held it in their arms, they found it to be therapeutic.  She often was able to forgive the rapist more and put the tragedy in the past.  If she aborted it, it would have been one tragedy on another.  Of course, I only dealt with two patients where this was the case, but I thought that this should be shared in contrast to that often cited contrary view.
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
Marat
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic reinvestigating the Orthodox Church
Posts: 383


« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2006, 12:28:52 PM »

I could not have said it better myself. Bravo!

There can be no exceptions to the murder of innocents.

So, in the case of abortion to save the life of the mother, you'd prefer the mother chance death, right? Even if the woman was your wife, sister, daughter, or possibly your own mother, you'd rather her die or chance it than have an abortion and guarantee the safety of her life? I know the situation is rare, but it does happen and you said no exceptions.

I admire your conviction, but disagree with you. I would never risk the life of a loved one when their life could be saved. Maybe it comes from actually having lost a loved one.
Logged
calligraphqueen
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: GOA
Posts: 341


« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2006, 01:40:36 PM »

The exceptions of "rape, incest, and the health of the mother" are exceptions.  Pregnancy can occur in cases of sexual trauma, but it's rare.  There are fewer pregnancies that actually (as in truly) endanger the woman in question.  That line of reasoning is usually used to justify an abortion.  Pregnancy can actually aid in the healing or at times, the reducing of other symptoms. That side of the coin isn't brought up though.

I kind of become leary when men bat this issue around from a purely moral standpoint.  Even a mother who has been raped will suffer a direct correlation from an abortion and an increased liklihood of breast cancer, and other reproductive cancers.  No one tells them any of this.  The same mother will still suffer the emotional and spiritual effects of taking a life, regardless of the event that caused the pregnancy.  I get conflicting info on whether Orthodox believe conception is just some random biological process alone, like God set it in motion and walked away from it.  Or, do they believe God still breathes life into each soul and each one is known to Him and has a plan/purpose?
If pregancy, like sex these days, it just merely a biological result-then it's easy to set up exceptions and loopholes.  Removing the awe of life, even in cases of trauma, removes a level of responsiblity.  I see men try so much harder to put a purely scientific cover on the issue.  Then again, it all goes back to vile sexual sin in the first place.  There wouldn't be as much incest and rape if men were raised better.

But then, what do I know? I faced an unplanned pregnancy years ago, and have a teenager that questions her validity due to societal views on children that "weren't meant to be"  EAch and every pregnancy is life, regardless of how it got there.  I don't doubt that a pregnancy as a result of rape is difficult, I have friends that faced this.  But when life isn't valued at certain times, under certain circumstances, we weaken the entire premise that it's valued at all.
Just a bit of opinion on the matter from a female.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 01:43:12 PM by calligraphqueen » Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2006, 01:43:34 PM »

Quote
I kind of become leary when men bat this issue around from a purely moral standpoint.

So do I.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2006, 04:36:51 PM »

So, in the case of abortion to save the life of the mother, you'd prefer the mother chance death, right?
Since you raised the question, can you cite a specific medical situation where a woman with a viable pregnancy will chance death if she does not have an abortion?

Yes, they are much more rare than anyone on the pro-abortion side will even care to admit. And yet we average about 3,000 elective abortions every day in the United States.

There are instances where a pregnant woman requires medical care which will threaten or even terminate her pregnancy (chemotherapy treatments for cancer are just one example). But even in such a case, it is not the abortion that will save her, but the other medical treatment.

I will be interested to hear what medical condition requires the termination of a viable pregnancy.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 04:37:22 PM by BoredMeeting » Logged
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2006, 04:39:26 PM »

Quote
I kind of become leary when men bat this issue around from a purely moral standpoint.
So do I. So do I.
Why do you believe that men must be silent when it comes to protecting unborn humans?
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2006, 05:20:33 PM »

BoredMeeting

Quote
I will be interested to hear what medical condition requires the termination of a viable pregnancy.

Though not addressed to me, I'd like to add my two cents on this question, considering that my wife and I have actually been (or almost been, depending on your POV) in such a situation. My wife was born with heart defects; she has had a hole in her heart patched twice in her life, and has also had two artificial valves since she was an infant. She has always been on blood thinners, and (for obvious reasons) has led a fairly sedentary life, leaving her weaker than the average girl her age. We were told this time around (our 2nd pregnancy) that she had somewhere approaching a 5% chance of dying. Not an awfully high percentage by itself... until you actually grapple with the potential of losing the most important person in your life. That is one reason that I agreed with the statement about being "leary when men bat this issue around from a purely moral standpoint." I'm equally leary of women who treat the issue with clumsiness, of course.

I cannot speak for my wife, but as for myself, as a non-Christian/religionist I did not have some God to take orders from, telling me what was moral, telling me what percentage was "high enough" to justify terminating the pregnancy. My wife had a 1 in 20 or maybe 1 in 25 change of dying. Is that dangerous enough? If life begins at conception, is there any percentage at which you can justify terminating the pregnancy? Unfortunately I didn't have the comfort of prayer, or "leaving it in God's hands". We had an ultrasound done around the 8th or 9th week, to verify that the baby was indeed alive. After that, we had to decide what to do.

Again, I cannot speak for my wife, but in the end I (for my part) decided against an abortion, partly because the percentage was small enough (a subjective judgment), and partly because I thought that we had created the lifeform and as long as it had the potential to be a human life, that we owed it the chance to live. Had my wife had, say, a 50% chance of dying, however, I don't know that I could have made the same decision. I don't know that it'd be as high as 50%, but the doctors have been very clear that any future pregnancies would have much greater risks. That, to me, is an example of a viable pregnancy which might be terminated to save the mother's life.

Quote
Why do you believe that men must be silent when it comes to protecting unborn humans?

I think I took the statement a bit differently than others might have. For me, the key terms were the ones boldened here: "I kind of become leary when men bat this issue around from a purely moral standpoint." I took the statement to be criticizing people (or in this case, men) who sit around in their computer chairs and try to make judgments about something they've never faced themselves, and probably haven't put much thought into how various factors might change situations. I should also say at this point that my questions for Matthew were not an attempt to defend a specific position, I was just trying to explore certain positions, and why those positions are held. Basically, if you believe that life begins at conception, and that all life is important, I wanted to explore what the logical consequences of those beliefs would be (if someone was consistent).
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 05:23:24 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2006, 07:48:48 PM »

The exceptions of "rape, incest, and the health of the mother" are exceptions.  Pregnancy can occur in cases of sexual trauma, but it's rare. 

But as long as these extreme cases exist, I believe that legal abortion will be a necessary evil in our society, just as war, though a real hell on earth, is sometimes unavoidable.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2006, 08:15:21 PM »

I cannot speak for my wife, but as for myself, as a non-Christian/religionist I did not have some God to take orders from, telling me what was moral...
I understand perfectly. Your eyes are opened and you decide what is good and what is evil.  It is a very old message.

It is a blessing that your wife and child are well.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2006, 08:31:26 PM »

It seems I struck a nerve...  good.  Grin
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 08:32:53 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Marat
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic reinvestigating the Orthodox Church
Posts: 383


« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2006, 08:42:06 PM »

Since you raised the question, can you cite a specific medical situation where a woman with a viable pregnancy will chance death if she does not have an abortion?

Yes, they are much more rare than anyone on the pro-abortion side will even care to admit. And yet we average about 3,000 elective abortions every day in the United States.

There are instances where a pregnant woman requires medical care which will threaten or even terminate her pregnancy (chemotherapy treatments for cancer are just one example). But even in such a case, it is not the abortion that will save her, but the other medical treatment.

I will be interested to hear what medical condition requires the termination of a viable pregnancy.

I am not a doctor, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I do believe the situation can occur. If you want to debate medical conditions, I can't help you.
Logged
Panagiotis
Libertarian/Orthodox/Lush
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Phanar
Posts: 406


Advocating Liberty Since 1973


WWW
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2006, 09:08:29 PM »

I am pro-life. Pretty much agree with life beginning at conception as well. The official Orthodox opinion on this issue anyone? I read  that the position is life at conception as well, but if anyone hears different I would like to hear.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
Logged


"The first condition for the establishment of perpetual peace is the general adoption of the principles of laissez-faire capitalism"
-Ludwig Von Mises
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2006, 09:20:26 PM »

That seems to be the case. I've read two seperate people (Noonan and Levin) claim that at least a few Church Fathers believed that a certain number of days had to pass before the fetus was "ensouled," though I can't recall ever seeing an actual quote (and it would be in the extreme minority anyway).
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,170


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2006, 11:17:24 PM »

Hi,

A good friend of mine came up to me and gave me a philosophical thought-provoking question.  I did not know what this question was intended for.

Suppose, a couple of guys beat me up until I became unconscious, and then I wake up hooked to a machine where my connection to it was necessary for the life of the guy in bed who's hanging on to his dear life (pretend for argument's sake that there is such a machine).  Now, I'm given an option.  Either I stay with the guy for a couple of months, risking whatever other important life, job, or family matters I may have, or I can disconnect freely and walk away, while the person dies.

Now, obviously, anyone's "ghetto" side would say "Forget this guy, he deserves to die after what they did to me."  But I stood there thinking long and hard for about five minutes, and pretended that this situation was true.  Then, I thought in a Christian manner, since me and her always get into philosophy debates, and I would say first that "it would make sense" that I must stay for his dear life.  She then asked me, "but what would YOU do?"

I noticed then how weak I am in thinking this through.  I hesitate though to say that I would let the guy die off.  So, I finally came to my senses and said "I MUST stay.  I can't let this guy die if he needs me alone."

At that moment, she was amazed and told me "and that is why you are Pro-life."

But at that moment, I also learned how hard it is for a woman to make such a decision.  This was the case with people who were forced into pregnancy by rape or incest.

God bless.

Mina
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 11:18:36 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2006, 12:33:10 AM »

If life begins at conception, then what is the difference between killing a baby while in the mother and killing the baby a few days after it's been born? Is there some existential boundary that is crossed when a baby pops out, where they become somehow more "alive" after exiting the mother? Does a rapist being the father of the baby devalue the intrinsic worth of the child, so much so that terminating the pregnancy is justified, whereas other sins of the parents (e.g., drug use, causing a drug-addicted newborn) would not give such a justification? Fwiw, I am pro-life.

Well, according to the Twelve Tables, as well as most the ancient laws of the Mediterranean World (and probably of the entire world, though my knowledge of law from other parts of the world is more limited), those who are not responsible under the law are not protected under the law. Or, in more philosophical terms, reason is what makes us human, and he who is without reason is not human (I know I'm referencing a certain Greek here, though I can't recall his name, if anyone knows who I'm talking about let me know).

Now, this is not necessarily my position, as a neo-platonist I would define humanity in terms of a hierarchy of ontological emanations from the One manifested through the actions of the initial hypostatical emanations from the One. However, it is certainly a logical position that would give more than enough justification in the cases you mention.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 12:34:43 AM by greekischristian » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2006, 01:02:39 AM »

That said, in the time I volunteered at a Pregnancy Centre, several cases actually showed the opposite.  Mothers were worried to death about whether their children would look like the rapist or the mental anguish, but once the child was born and they held it in their arms, they found it to be therapeutic.  She often was able to forgive the rapist more and put the tragedy in the past.  If she aborted it, it would have been one tragedy on another.  Of course, I only dealt with two patients where this was the case, but I thought that this should be shared in contrast to that often cited contrary view.

It is great that these women were helped by their child-birth; however, the simple fact that they decided not to have an abortion probably implies a certain cultural conditioning and mindset that would at least make them more likely to psychologically benifit from bringing their pregnancies to term. However, this is by no means a universal response to pregnancies brought about through rape. Would you be willing to impose upon these women (and make no mistake, that is what those who make absolute moral statements seek to do, impose their opinions on the lives others) the requirement that endure, day in and day out, a pregnancy that they never wanted and was violently forced upon them? By doing so it would logically seem that these moralists are perpetrating the same violence against these women, and perhaps even a worse violence; for while the rapist inflicts violence in one moment the moralist seeks to prolong this violence for months, if not years; not only psychologically, but also physically.

It seems clear to me that the inflicting of any moral requirement or restriction, save liberty, in this instance is inherently immoral, inherently an act of violence. Perhaps we should be more concerned with the well-being of the victim than with any abstract moral code (one way, or the other).
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2006, 01:42:39 AM »

Quote
Would you be willing to impose upon these women (and make no mistake, that is what those who make absolute moral statements seek to do, impose their opinions on the lives others) the requirement that endure, day in and day out, a pregnancy that they never wanted and was violently forced upon them

I wasn't saying anything one way or the other.  Simply, I was providing alternate evidence as to some saying that bringing children to birth out of a rape is traumatic and was offering evidence in the other manner.  Trying to balance it out, if you will.
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2006, 02:41:12 AM »

GiC

That's an interesting suggestion, though I think it better left to the former period in humanity's cultural evolution. After all, how could my modern sensibilities cope with the consequences of such an approach, such as exposing infants? I guess I'm just a soft modern in many ways, compared to the glorious ancients Smiley
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2006, 03:07:13 AM »

So, in the case of abortion to save the life of the mother, you'd prefer the mother chance death, right? Even if the woman was your wife, sister, daughter, or possibly your own mother, you'd rather her die or chance it than have an abortion and guarantee the safety of her life? I know the situation is rare, but it does happen and you said no exceptions.

I admire your conviction, but disagree with you. I would never risk the life of a loved one when their life could be saved. Maybe it comes from actually having lost a loved one.

From what I've read, direct abortion is never absolutely necessary to save the mother's life. The removal of a cancerous uterus or a section of fallopian tube during an ectopic pregnancy are not direct abortions, though they do end in the death of a fetus.

Caesarean sections are routine today, and the mortality rate is now less than 0.04% and continues to drop. The baby is a patient as well as the mother, and it is up to the doctor to save both if he can.

It is not a moral imposition as a previous poster said, it is about extending the protection of the laws equally to all human beings, born or unborn. To be honest, my position on abortion has nothing at all to do with the woman's choices or how she got in her position. It is entirely about the two human lives at stake. I've tried and I've tried, but I cannot in good faith come up with exceptions that place different values on human lives. Who are we to say which is more valuable?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 03:20:29 AM by lubeltri » Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2006, 09:49:51 AM »

It is not a moral imposition as a previous poster said, it is about extending the protection of the laws equally to all human beings, born or unborn. To be honest, my position on abortion has nothing at all to do with the woman's choices or how she got in her position. It is entirely about the two human lives at stake. I've tried and I've tried, but I cannot in good faith come up with exceptions that place different values on human lives. Who are we to say which is more valuable?

I believe the essence of our disagreement is over the significance of Liberty. Yes, human life is a great and important thing, but a much lesser thing than human liberty. And liberty is often an imposition against life, but an imposition that is essential to giving life meaning and value. Thus it makes sense that at times lives must be sacrificed or placed in jeopardy in order that we may maintain or increase our liberty. Now, I would argue that in the case of rape the right and liberty of a woman to free herself from the effects of the said trauma and violence (if and only if she so chooses) to be greater than the right to life of any life that resulted from that act of violence. As to whether or not this argument applies to the overwhelming majority of abortions, I am not so sure, today there is ample opportunity to make use of birth control and use preventive measures; thus, your average abortion terminates a pregnancy that results from irresponsibility and neglect, if you deliberately cause your situation it is a bit more difficult to argue that you have the right to take another's life in order that you may be free from it.

But I guess that's the kind of response you would generally expect from one who has an (attributed) quote from Voltaire in his signature Wink
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 09:51:14 AM by greekischristian » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2006, 09:56:12 AM »

GiC

That's an interesting suggestion, though I think it better left to the former period in humanity's cultural evolution. After all, how could my modern sensibilities cope with the consequences of such an approach, such as exposing infants? I guess I'm just a soft modern in many ways, compared to the glorious ancients Smiley

First I was told I would never have the opportunity to see the great games in the coloseum and now I shall never have the opportunity to observe the sacrifices to the carthaginian gods :'( Wink

But in all seriousness, I believe that abortion allowed that sensibility to develop. There is, generally speaking, a need for population control, it was first accomplished by exposure, later a combination of exposure and human sacrifice, next by abortion, and today by abortion and contraceptives. The future will probably see a decline in the necessity of abortion as advancements in contraceptives and genetic engineering are made. Like the arguments over exposure, the arguments over abortion are only for a certain technological phase in human history, as technology develops, so will our cultural norms.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2006, 12:08:05 PM »

It seems I struck a nerve...  good.  Grin
Quite the opposite actually.

So, are you glad that you let the child live now? Grin
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 12:08:51 PM by BoredMeeting » Logged
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2006, 12:11:25 PM »

I am not a doctor, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I do believe the situation can occur. If you want to debate medical conditions, I can't help you.
Then you are willing to dispense with the illusion that abortions are often done to save the life of the mother?
Logged
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2006, 12:15:22 PM »

...as for myself, as a non-Christian/religionist I did not have some God to take orders from, telling me what was moral...

....as a neo-platonist I would define humanity in terms of a hierarchy of ontological emanations from the One manifested through the actions of the initial hypostatical emanations from the One.

I wonder if we could get some other Orthodox Christians who actually embrace the teachings of the Church to weigh in on the matter?
Logged
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,357


metron ariston


« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2006, 12:18:36 PM »

I wonder if we could get some other Orthodox Christians who actually embrace the teachings of the Church to weigh in on the matter?

Why? Were the thread exclusively about Orthodox Christian ideas on abortion, it would have ended long ago.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Marat
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic reinvestigating the Orthodox Church
Posts: 383


« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2006, 01:00:41 PM »

Then you are willing to dispense with the illusion that abortions are often done to save the life of the mother?

I never said they were often done for that reason, only that it is a possibility.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 06:23:52 PM by Marat » Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2006, 05:46:06 PM »

I believe the essence of our disagreement is over the significance of Liberty. Yes, human life is a great and important thing, but a much lesser thing than human liberty. And liberty is often an imposition against life, but an imposition that is essential to giving life meaning and value. Thus it makes sense that at times lives must be sacrificed or placed in jeopardy in order that we may maintain or increase our liberty. Now, I would argue that in the case of rape the right and liberty of a woman to free herself from the effects of the said trauma and violence (if and only if she so chooses) to be greater than the right to life of any life that resulted from that act of violence. As to whether or not this argument applies to the overwhelming majority of abortions, I am not so sure, today there is ample opportunity to make use of birth control and use preventive measures; thus, your average abortion terminates a pregnancy that results from irresponsibility and neglect, if you deliberately cause your situation it is a bit more difficult to argue that you have the right to take another's life in order that you may be free from it.

But I guess that's the kind of response you would generally expect from one who has an (attributed) quote from Voltaire in his signature Wink

I understand and respect your point of view, though I have a different perspective on the relative value of life and liberty.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2006, 05:57:36 PM »

Quote
Yes, human life is a great and important thing, but a much lesser thing than human liberty.

Nope, that's not the Orthodox teaching. Liberty means nothing if life is not supported unconditionally. I don't understand how you can put one person's liberty over another's in this situation.

Do you even have any clue what abortion does to women? My former priest used to work with this thing called Project Rachel where they worked with women who had had abortions (some for rape) and it just tore them up.  You are suggesting that it is possible for abortion to result in something positive in a woman's life. No!  Your ideas have real world applications that you do not seem to care about.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2006, 07:13:13 PM »

I understand and respect your point of view, though I have a different perspective on the relative value of life and liberty.

And the CHurch seems to, too.... Something about giving up one's Earthly freedom and liberty for the Heavenly Stuff.... You know, the liberty and freedom that will benefit oneself at the Resurrection from the Dead and the New World Order that will come from Christ's reign on Earth.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2006, 07:59:18 PM »

I never said they were often done for that reason, only that it is a possibility.
And if certain legal restrictions were placed on abortion, isn't it likely that allowances would be made for such a possibility?

I've yet to hear any pro-Lifers in America suggest otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 08:01:14 PM by BoredMeeting » Logged
Marat
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic reinvestigating the Orthodox Church
Posts: 383


« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2006, 08:06:48 PM »

And if certain legal restrictions were placed on abortion, isn't it likely that allowances would be made for such a possibility?

I've yet to hear any pro-Lifers in America suggest otherwise.

I would hope so, and as I understand it, yes they do feel the same way. I only posted what I did because lubeltri said, "There can be no exceptions to the murder of innocents." No exceptions to me includes not even for the life of the mother.

BoredMeeting, I feel we are not far off on our positions on abortion, if off any at all.

Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2006, 09:01:19 PM »

Here is one woman who did not believe in abortion to save her own life:

http://www.saintgianna.org/
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2006, 10:01:37 PM »

I wonder if we could get some other Orthodox Christians who actually embrace the teachings of the Church to weigh in on the matter?

While my moral philosophy may, at times, slightly diverge from the traditionally held views in some Orthodox communities, I believe you will find my theology to be quite Orthodox...even if I do state it in neo-platonic terms.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2006, 10:10:54 PM »

Do you even have any clue what abortion does to women? My former priest used to work with this thing called Project Rachel where they worked with women who had had abortions (some for rape) and it just tore them up.  You are suggesting that it is possible for abortion to result in something positive in a woman's life. No!  Your ideas have real world applications that you do not seem to care about.

Oh, I do care about the real world applications and research on the subject (and yes, I've done it, mainly to upset a Pastoral Theology instructor Grin) demonstrates that most women have no psychological trauma resulting from an abortion. Are there some that do? Certainly, there are a great many who do, but even more who do not. Which is why I desire to neither mandate nor prohibit abortion in the case of rape. Each case is different and each person must consider their own conditions for themselves, and that is all I advocate, a personalized and individualized approach, placing freedom over uncompromising, absolute dogmas.

Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2006, 10:13:09 PM »

And the CHurch seems to, too.... Something about giving up one's Earthly freedom and liberty for the Heavenly Stuff.... You know, the liberty and freedom that will benefit oneself at the Resurrection from the Dead and the New World Order that will come from Christ's reign on Earth.

Yes, to sacrifice one's freedom is a great and noble thing, a far greater and more noble thing than sacrificing one's life. But the same nobility is not found in the imposing of this sacrifice on others.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2006, 10:15:41 PM »

I hate the idea of people being able to choose for themselves moral boundaries. And I think that it is wholly unOrthodox to suggest they can or should.

As for your research, I have heard that cited before, but I also have heard prolifers cite different facts. I suppose it would be difficult to measure "psychological trauma" in the first place, but clearly it does spiritual trauma and so what you counsel could very well lead people to hell.  Remember, if a woman has an abortion (or her husband or boyfriend pressures her into that) she, he, or they will have to stand in front of the person they murdered on judgment day and answer the question "why?"  Your free for all morality doesn't help people come to grips with the consequences of their choices.
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2006, 01:36:12 AM »

If a person does not actively choose his own moral path, that simply means that he has ceded that right to someone else (a priest, a church father, a biblical writer--but not God, unless of course God is speaking to you clearly and directly). Either way, a person has made a choice. Whether he (actively) chooses his morality or (passively) grants the right to someone else makes no difference: he has still decided for him/herself.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
MichaelArchangelos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 103



« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2006, 02:48:08 AM »

I am completely pro-life. I don't even think that if the mother's life is in danger that the baby should be killed. Do you think that it's right to kill one person to save another person's life? No. It is never right to do evil that good may come of it. To kill one person to save another's life means that the person who lived's life will be tainted. It has been bought by the blood of another.

And incest, rape etc. Haven't you ever heard the old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right?" A woman is raped. Okay, that's a grave sin. Does that fact mean that she can commit the sin of murder against her own child? Of course not. No matter what wrongs have been done to you, you may not take a human life.

If a woman knows that if she gets pregnant, her life will be in danger, then as far as I know she must not have sex with her husband at all. They must completely abstain. I know that the Roman Catholic Church teaches this (and I mean the traditional Catholic Church, not the pseudo-Catholic modernist Church filled with the "spirit of Vatican II") but I've never heard the Orthodox position on it.

No good can come of an evil act.
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2006, 03:04:20 AM »

I am completely pro-life.

Does that mean that you oppose unprovoked war, the death penalty, and poverty?
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2006, 05:17:33 AM »

I know that the Roman Catholic Church teaches this (and I mean the traditional Catholic Church, not the pseudo-Catholic modernist Church filled with the "spirit of Vatican II")

I might point out that Pope Paul VI, the same pope who promulgated the revised 1970 Roman rite, also wrote Humanae Vitae. The official Church teaching remains the same (praise be to God), though it has made many enemies with these unpopular positions.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2006, 05:21:38 AM »

Does that mean that you oppose unprovoked war, the death penalty, and poverty?

I would hope that everybody opposes poverty. Christians can disagree about how to go about opposing it.

That, like the two other issues you mention, allow a certain amount of discretion (I personally take the more liberal political position on these issues, but I recognize the value and legitimacy of other approaches).

However, issues like murder are necessarily non-negotiable.
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2006, 05:50:37 AM »

However, issues like murder are necessarily non-negotiable.

I would agree with you. But according to some, it's only "collateral damage" when the innocent are killed overseas.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2006, 09:44:31 AM »

I would agree with you. But according to some, it's only "collateral damage" when the innocent are killed overseas.
Are the innocent the targets?

With abortion, they certainly are.
Logged
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2006, 09:46:00 AM »

Does that mean that you oppose unprovoked war, the death penalty, and poverty?
Of course.

Which of those do you support?
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2006, 11:00:51 AM »

Are the innocent the targets?

That doesn't make a difference when war is waged for no good reason.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2006, 11:06:14 AM »

That doesn't make a difference when war is waged for no good reason.

So you accept that sometimes war can be justified, and that the deaths of some civilians in such a war is tragic but unavoidable?
Logged
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2006, 02:44:45 PM »

Quote from: Matthew777
That doesn't make a difference when war is waged for no good reason.

So you accept that sometimes war can be justified, and that the deaths of some civilians in such a war is tragic but unavoidable?

I hope no one attempts the exceedingly lame come back of asserting that there is never a "good reason" for war. One would think that the Hilter Appeasement-types had learned their lessons in September of 1939.
Logged
Tags: abortion 
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.182 seconds with 96 queries.