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Stephanos7
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« on: December 08, 2006, 07:17:10 PM »

Is the Epiclesis necessary for consecration of the Eucharist?
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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2006, 07:31:16 PM »

Is the Epiclesis necessary for consecration of the Eucharist?

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace,

As opposed to the words of Institution? As a Latin I would say 'no'!  Grin

What did you expect?

Pax Vobiscum
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2006, 07:47:18 PM »


...

As opposed to the words of Institution? As a Latin I would say 'no'! 

...


I never said as OPPOSED to anything.
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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2006, 08:14:43 PM »

Yes, the epiclesis is absolutely necessary.  However, certain Western liturgical forms use a different way of saying the same thing as an epiclesis.  The old canon of the Latin mass had this prayer, the te supplices,  which St. Nicholas Cabasilas insists accomplishes the same thing as an epiclesis:

"We most humbly beseech you, Almighty God, to command that these things be carried by the hands of your holy angel to your altar on high before the sight of your divine majesty, that so many as are partakers at the altar of the sacred body and blood of your son may be filled with all benediction and grace......"

This Western form is actually much more ancient than the more explicit Eastern epiclesis.  However, I don't think that that makes it better.  It would seem that the Latins have forgotten the meaning of this prayer.  Cabasilas contends that instead of asking the Spirit to come upon the gifts, it is instead a way of lifting up the gifts into the very presence of God to effect the change.  I don't like this prayer only because it is less clear in its meaning than the Eastern equivalent.  In the context of the Western liturgy, it makes perfect sense.  But since it is not very explicit, the Latin Church has forgotten its meaning and insists on the so-called "words of institution" as effecting the change.  Orthodoxy insists that basically the entire liturgy up to and including the epiclesis is what effects the change, and would of course count the "words of institution" as being a very central part of that movement. 

Because the Latins have forgotten the meaning of the te supplices, it would seem that certain novus ordo forms don't have an invocational equivalent of the te supplices, or at least one could argue that the forms are so vague, it is not clear what they are meant to accomplish.  This is quite problematic for the Orthodox.  Needless to say, many Anglican or Lutheran usages have nothing approachin a te supplices prayer.

Before Lubeltri and Papist jump all over me for saying that the Latin Church has forgotten the meaning of this prayer, I would like to point out that I am aware that many Latin liturgical scholars are perfectly aware, nowadays, of its significance. 
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2006, 08:28:33 PM »

Yes, the epiclesis is absolutely necessary. 

...

Orthodoxy insists that basically the entire liturgy up to and including the epiclesis is what effects the change, and would of course count the "words of institution" as being a very central part of that movement. 

...


Excellently well said!



In The Anaphora of St. James it is obvious that both the words of Institution and the Epiclesis are included. The Church Fathers insisted on both, including Pope St. Gregory the Great (Gregory I, died 604 A.D.) who modeled what came later to be called the Tridentine Rite Mass after the Liturgy of Jerusalem (i.e. the Liturgy of  St. James, including his Anaphora shown below). Pope St. Gregory also insisted (and this was totally in keeping with the ancient liturgies as well) that the Our Father be included in the place of honor. In all the liturgies east and west throughout the centuries this – The Our Father, the Offertory (as is even especially shown forth in the Didache), the Words of Institution and the Epiclesis are included as the way the Eucharist is offered. Communion Prayers are, of course, ancient and venerable. The Tridentine form including “come Holy Spirit Sanctifier bless these gifts” as the Epiclesis, has lasted up to the present but is not in the Novus Ordo.

The Anaphora of St. James:

The People: It is becoming and right.

Then the celebrant prays: Verily it is becoming and right, proper and due to praise Thee, to sing of Thee, to bless Thee, to worship Thee, to glorify Thee, to give Thee thanks, Maker of every creature visible and invisible, the treasure of eternal good things, the fountain of life and immortality, God and Lord of all:
Whom the heavens of heavens praise, and all the host of them; the sun, and the moon, and all the choir of the stars; earth, sea, and all that is in them; Jerusalem, the heavenly assembly, and church of the first-born that are written in heaven; spirits of just men and of prophets; souls of martyrs and of apostles; the six-winged seraphim, which cover their faces with two wings, their feet with two, and with two they fly, crying one to another with unresting lips, and the many-eyed cherubim, lordships, archangels, authorities, dread powers and angels with unceasing praises:

(Aloud.) With loud voice singing the victorious hymn of Thy majestic glory, crying aloud, praising, shouting, and saying:-

The People: Holy, holy, holy, O Lord of Sabaoth, the heaven and the earth are full of Thy glory. Hosanna in the highest; blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

The celebrant, making the sign of the cross on the gifts, says: Holy art Thou, King of eternity, and Lord and giver of all holiness; holy also Thy only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom Thou hast made all things; holy also Thy Holy Spirit, which searches all things, even Thy deep things, O God: holy art Thou, almighty, all-powerful, good, dread, merciful, most compassionate to Thy creatures; who didst make man from earth after Thine own image and likeness; who didst give him the joy of paradise; and when he transgressed Thy commandment, and fell away, didst not disregard nor desert him, O Good One, but didst chasten him as at merciful father, call him by the law, instruct him by the prophets; and afterwards didst send forth Thine only-begotten Son Himself, our Lord Jesus Christ, into the world, that He by His coming might renew and restore Thy image;
Who, having descended from heaven, and become flesh of the Holy Spirit and Virgin Godmother Mary, and having sojourned among men, fulfilled the dispensation for the salvation of our race; and being about to endure His voluntary and life-giving death by the cross, He the sinless for us the sinners, in the night in which He was betrayed, nay, rather delivered Himself up for the life and salvation of the world,

Then the celebrant holds the bread in his hand, and says: Having taken the bread in His holy and pure and blameless and immortal hands, lifting up His eyes to heaven, and showing it to Thee, His God and Father, He gave thanks, and hallowed, and brake, and gave it to us, His disciples and apostles, saying:-

(here break the bread)

The Deacons say: For the remission of sins and life everlasting.

Then he says aloud: Take, eat: this is my body, broken for you, and given for remission of sins.

The People: Amen.

Then he takes the cup, and says: In like manner, after supper, He took the cup, and having mixed wine and water, lifting up His eyes to heaven, and presenting it to Thee, His God and Father, He gave thanks, and hallowed and blessed it, and filled it with the Holy Spirit, and gave it to us His disciples, saying, Drink ye all of it; this is my blood of the new testament shed for you and many, and distributed for the remission of sins.

The People: Amen.

The celebrant: This do in remembrance of me; for as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show forth the Lord’s death, and confess His resurrection, till He come.

The Deacons say: We believe and confess:

The People: We show forth Thy death, O Lord, and confess Thy resurrection.

The celebrant (Oblation): Remembering, therefore, His life-giving sufferings, His saving cross, His death and His burial, and resurrection from the dead on the third day, and His ascension into heaven, and sitting at the right hand of Thee, our God and Father, and His second glorious and awful appearing, when He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead, and render to every one according to His works; even we, sinful men, offer unto Thee, O Lord, this dread and bloodless sacrifice, praying that Thou wilt not deal with us after our sins, nor reward us according to our iniquities;
But that Thou, according to Thy mercy and Thy unspeakable loving-kindness, passing by and blotting out the handwriting against us Thy suppliants, wilt grant to us Thy heavenly and eternal gifts (which eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, and which have not entered into the heart of man ) that thou hast prepared, O God, for those who love Thee; and reject not, O loving Lord, the people for my sake, or for my sin’s sake:

Then he says, thrice: For Thy people and Thy Church supplicate Thee.

The People: Have mercy on us, O Lord our God, Father Almighty.

Again the celebrant says (Invocation): Have mercy upon us, O God Almighty. Have mercy upon us, O God our Saviour. Have mercy upon us, O God, according to Thy great mercy, and send forth on us, and on these offered gifts, Thy all-holy Spirit.

Then, bowing his neck, he says: The sovereign and quickening Spirit, that sits upon the throne with Thee, our God and Father, and with Thy only-begotten Son, reigning with Thee; the consubstantial and co-eternal; that spoke in the law and in the prophets, and in Thy New Testament; that descended in the form of a dove on our Lord Jesus Christ at the river Jordan, and abode on Him; that descended on Thy apostles in the form of tongues of fire in the upper room of the holy and glorious Zion on the day of Pentecost: this Thine all-holy Spirit, send down, O Lord, upon us, and upon these offered holy gifts;

And rising up, he says aloud: That coming, by His holy and good and glorious appearing, He may sanctify this bread, and make it the holy body of Thy Christ.

The People: Amen.

The celebrant: And this cup the precious blood of Thy Christ.

The People: Amen.
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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2006, 09:01:48 PM »

Yes, the epiclesis is absolutely necessary.  However, certain Western liturgical forms use a different way of saying the same thing as an epiclesis.  The old canon of the Latin mass had this prayer, the te supplices,  which St. Nicholas Cabasilas insists accomplishes the same thing as an epiclesis:

"We most humbly beseech you, Almighty God, to command that these things be carried by the hands of your holy angel to your altar on high before the sight of your divine majesty, that so many as are partakers at the altar of the sacred body and blood of your son may be filled with all benediction and grace......"

I don't understand why the "Supplices te rogamus" would be preferred over the "Quam oblationem?"  Ihave gathered from some online sites that that prayer is rejected because of its placement within the liturgy, apparently because 'Quam oblationem' precedes the words of institution.  Why is this so important that it would override the obvious nature of the prayer?  Isn't a prayer asking the blessing of God to confect the mystery just that, regardless of whether it is first or second?  The words "...O God, vouchsave in all things to bless, approve, ratify, make worthy and acceptable: that it may become for us the Body and Blood of Thy most beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ" would seem to go right to the point of what the epiclesis is about, and certainly more so than 'Supplices te rogamus.'  And didn't Jesus himself bless the bread before he said the words of institution?  So, why the problem with that prayer?

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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2006, 09:21:03 PM »

I don't understand why the "Supplices te rogamus" would be preferred over the "Quam oblationem?"  Ihave gathered from some online sites that that prayer is rejected because of its placement within the liturgy, apparently because 'Quam oblationem' precedes the words of institution.  Why is this so important that it would override the obvious nature of the prayer?  Isn't a prayer asking the blessing of God to confect the mystery just that, regardless of whether it is first or second?  The words "...O God, vouchsave in all things to bless, approve, ratify, make worthy and acceptable: that it may become for us the Body and Blood of Thy most beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ" would seem to go right to the point of what the epiclesis is about, and certainly more so than 'Supplices te rogamus.'  And didn't Jesus himself bless the bread before he said the words of institution?  So, why the problem with that prayer?

In nomine Iesu I offer you continued peace,

In a word... Legalism. Such is the bane of all who demand to establish their faith by 'orthopraxis'.  Wink

Pax Vobiscum
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2006, 10:26:32 PM »


...

In a word... Legalism. Such is the bane of all who demand to establish their faith by 'orthopraxis'.  Wink

...


Your alternative legalism is what? orthopapism or othoromanism or worst of all orthoecumenism?

And I don't recall anyone actually bringing the subject up, except you, in regards to this thread. A quick insult aimed indescriminatley at all, only makes you look foolish. Would you like to address the original subject, which is the Epiclesis -- which for 2000 years has been included in all traditional liturgies. Also, I don't recall anyone on this thread claiming how their faith was established. I will leave it to the others if they care to answer, but as for me, Jesus Christ is the establishment of my faith. The very same Church Fathers that witness to His establishment also edify and encourage, not to mention, instruct me. They tell us that we must use the Epiclesis with the Words of Institution and the Our Father as I recounted above.

I appreciate the posts of those who seek to share the unambiguous Truth. Francis-Christopher I appreciate your post. Thank you.
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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
Stephanos7
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2006, 10:31:58 PM »

I don't understand why the "Supplices te rogamus" would be preferred over the "Quam oblationem?"  Ihave gathered from some online sites that that prayer is rejected because of its placement within the liturgy, apparently because 'Quam oblationem' precedes the words of institution.  Why is this so important that it would override the obvious nature of the prayer?  Isn't a prayer asking the blessing of God to confect the mystery just that, regardless of whether it is first or second?  The words "...O God, vouchsave in all things to bless, approve, ratify, make worthy and acceptable: that it may become for us the Body and Blood of Thy most beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ" would seem to go right to the point of what the epiclesis is about, and certainly more so than 'Supplices te rogamus.'  And didn't Jesus himself bless the bread before he said the words of institution?  So, why the problem with that prayer?

Patrick

Patrick,

If you can find Msgr. Klaus Gamber in print or in electronic form (now gone on to be with the Lord, in His bosom, until the first resurrection, of the just) I am sure he can help you.

God bless.
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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2006, 11:28:10 PM »

Your alternative legalism is what? orthopapism or othoromanism or worst of all orthoecumenism?

In a word... caritas. Because, "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter".

Quote
And I don't recall anyone actually bringing the subject up, except you, in regards to this thread. A quick insult aimed indescriminatley at all, only makes you look foolish.

"...the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

All pride is idolatry. Flee from it.

Quote
Would you like to address the original subject, which is the Epiclesis -- which for 2000 years has been included in all traditional liturgies. Also, I don't recall anyone on this thread claiming how their faith was established. I will leave it to the others if they care to answer, but as for me, Jesus Christ is the establishment of my faith. The very same Church Fathers that witness to His establishment also edify and encourage, not to mention, instruct me. They tell us that we must use the Epiclesis with the Words of Institution and the Our Father as I recounted above.

I am not a believer in ecclesial cantrips. My God is merciful and kind and 'does not deny a contrite heart' nor does He overlook the shepherding of His Flock for they know His voice and respond to His call.

It is in silence that God is known, and through mysteries that he declares himself. - The Cloud of Unknowing

I would suggest that you come before Him and be as a little child and you will cease to grasp at such trivialities and bask in the flow of His profundity.

Quote
Francis-Christopher I appreciate your post.

Pax Vobiscum
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2006, 12:01:53 AM »



You are not saying anything except you think you are something special. Go away. You are juvenile and your words are tripe and you are boring and simply trying to get in the way of a serious discussion. Again, just go away.
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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2006, 12:23:16 AM »

You are not saying anything except you think you are something special. Go away. You are juvenile and your words are tripe and you are boring and simply trying to get in the way of a serious discussion. Again, just go away.

I understand... but I leave with just one more thought which I emplore you to ponder with great care...

I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:3

Pax Vobiscum

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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2006, 01:16:48 AM »

You are not saying anything except you think you are something special. Go away. You are juvenile and your words are tripe and you are boring and simply trying to get in the way of a serious discussion. Again, just go away.

I'm not a moderator, but I think that this is a tad uncharitable.
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2006, 03:41:05 AM »

Well, not to excuse the behaviour, but look at what was said to provoke it!
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2006, 03:44:56 AM »

In a word... Legalism. Such is the bane of all who demand to establish their faith by 'orthopraxis'.  Wink

Hello?  This is supposed to be a dispassionate discussion about liturgy, not a mudslinging contest.
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2006, 03:50:43 AM »

In a word... caritas. Because, "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter".

"...the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

All pride is idolatry. Flee from it.

I am not a believer in ecclesial cantrips. My God is merciful and kind and 'does not deny a contrite heart' nor does He overlook the shepherding of His Flock for they know His voice and respond to His call.

It is in silence that God is known, and through mysteries that he declares himself. - The Cloud of Unknowing

I would suggest that you come before Him and be as a little child and you will cease to grasp at such trivialities and bask in the flow of His profundity.

Right.  All very true.  Except that it has nothing to do with anything under discussion here on this thread.  If you have no points to make in a dispassionate manner about questions of liturgical development, perhaps you would like to let the rest of us continue our discussion.  Thank you.
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2006, 04:08:52 AM »

....the Epiclesis -- which for 2000 years has been included in all traditional liturgies. 

Actually, no, this is not the case, as I pointed out in my first post.  It's been around for maybe 1650-1700 years or so, I think. 

Quote
The very same Church Fathers that witness to His establishment also edify and encourage, not to mention, instruct me. They tell us that we must use the Epiclesis with the Words of Institution and the Our Father as I recounted above.

In the context of an Eastern liturgy, certainly.  But in my opinion, the te supplices, in a (somewhat?) restored Western liturgy would have to stand as acceptable to the Orthodox in the event of a reunion with Rome.  Moreover, in my opinion, should any parish wish to convert and retain the Western rite, we would have to accept the te supplices in lieu of an epiclesis.  It just makes much more sense in the context of Western liturgy, which uses more ancient forms than Eastern liturgies.  Grafting on the more developed epiclesial form just seems non-contextual and artificial.  Certain Western-rite Orthodox that have a kind of Anglican Book of Common Prayer do this, and it just seems kind of weird.  Of course, I have all kinds of other problems, I think, with using an Anglican ordo.
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2006, 04:14:53 AM »

The Tridentine form including “come Holy Spirit Sanctifier bless these gifts” as the Epiclesis, has lasted up to the present but is not in the Novus Ordo.

Well, you yourself argue later in this thread,in a roundabout way, that this is not considered to be an equivalent to the epiclesis.
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2006, 09:29:57 AM »

Actually, no, this is not the case, as I pointed out in my first post.  It's been around for maybe 1650-1700 years or so, I think. 



See St. Irenaeus 180 A.D. where he states emphatically that the real presence in the Eucharistic consecration is perfected by the thanksgiving over the bread and the cup (words of institution) and the invocation of the Holy Spirit. St. Justin Martyr similarly states. St.Irenaeus declares that this command to so perform the consecration of the Eucharist goes all the way back to the Didache from the Apostles themselves.
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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2006, 09:30:38 AM »

Well, you yourself argue later in this thread,in a roundabout way, that this is not considered to be an equivalent to the epiclesis.

I said no such thing.
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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2006, 09:36:20 AM »

I understand... [/color] - 2 Corinthians 11:3

As St. Irenaeus said in Against heresies, and this fits your babble.

2. Error, indeed, is never set forth in its naked deformity, lest, being thus exposed, it should at once be detected. But it is craftily decked out in an attractive dress, so as, by its outward form, to make it appear to the inexperienced (ridiculous as the expression may seem) more true than the truth itself. One(4) far superior to me has well said, in reference to this point, "A clever imitation in glass casts contempt, as it were, on that precious jewel the emerald (which is most highly esteemed by some), unless it come under the eye of one able to test and expose the counterfeit. Or, again, what inexperienced person can with ease detect the presence of brass when it has been mixed up with silver?" Lest, therefore, through my neglect, some should be carried off, even as sheep are by wolves, while they perceive not the true character of these men,-because they outwardly are covered with sheep's clothing (against whom the Lord has enjoined(5) us to be on our guard), and because their language resembles ours, while their sentiments are very different,
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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
Stephanos7
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2006, 09:43:30 AM »

I'm not a moderator, but I think that this is a tad uncharitable.

Yours is a total false charity. And as such is part of the below.

The False Prophet


“The arms that the false prophet carries for the Antichrist are the theological and political lies and power in churches and government to subvert minds”



St. Irenaeus tells us to beware of the false prophet which will endeavor to make people worship the beast (the Antichrist). St. Irenaeus quotes St. John the Apostle and Evangelist in the Book of the Revelation and refers to the false prophet as the armour bearer of the Antichrist.   

…he likewise describes his armour-bearer, whom he also terms a false prophet: "He spake as a dragon, and exercised all the power of the first beast in his sight, and caused the earth, and those that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he shall perform great wonders, so that he can even cause fire to descend from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men, and he shall lead the inhabitants of the earth astray."(4) Let no one imagine that he performs these wonders by divine power, but by the working of magic. And we must not be surprised if, since the demons and apostate spirits are at his service, he through their means performs wonders, by which he leads the inhabitants of the earth astray. John says further: "And he shall order an image of the beast to be made, and he shall give breath to the image, so that the image shall speak; and he shall cause those to be slain who will not adore it." He says also: "And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the fight hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six,"

The current apostasy from which the false prophet will arise is the Ecumenical Movement (especially at Assisi), with all of it’s mixture of sorcery and magic and false-christian one worldliness and especially it’s reference to Judaism as a true religion.

The arms that the false prophet carries for the Antichrist are the theological and political lies and power in churches and government to subvert minds and enslave, even physically, people that listen to or have anything to do with the peace promised by Satan. The Ecumenical movement has subsumed the false church that styles itself as evangelical with it’s docetic denial of Christ’s resurrection and ours, which they call the secret rapture. This false church serves as the most overt go-between to the Zionist Antichrist that is modern Israel.

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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
Stephanos7
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Wisdom is justified by her children


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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2006, 09:48:10 AM »

Well, not to excuse the behaviour, but look at what was said to provoke it!

"Well, not to excuse the behaviour" -- No one asked you to. I said nothing wrong at all.

At Vatican II and in perpetuity therefrom God sent the energian planes He promised to send when people, totally knowingly of their own knowledge and free will, apostasized from Him, to evolutionary Rome which doesn’t believe at all (totally denies the Resurrection) and so (Rome) ruled then and ever since by the child molesting and murdering Satanists, on purpose, took every stray comment (in church history and in secular history) in direct opposition to: the Gospel and the full consensus of the Church Fathers – all tradition which is the teaching authority of the church, and at the same time, sardonically using the totally false base of papal ratification/infallibility, on purpose, invoked every false religious belief and practice of sorcery and magic – all idoloolatreia and pharmakeia – totally knowingly, and understanding completely full well the diabolic nature of, under cloak of all the totally diabolic marian apparitions with the apostate so-called ‘orthodox’ church Sergei Bulgakov’s Mary the triple goddess at the center to form their own false religion with, on purpose, themselves, as the center to be worshipped and thus brought in all the wolves, knowingly and on purpose, to ravage the sheep at the same time: the perverts and the diabolic marian apparitional “ pseudo ‘traditionalists’ ” and the murdering-lying-thieving-money-grubbing-smarmy-diabolically-sneering-political-power-grabbing-pretend-pious-pharisaical-legalist-scripture-mis-quoting-misleading-idoloolatreia-pharmakeia/worshipping  “pseudo ‘evangelical’ ” wolves and all other infidels thereby destroying society and, on purpose, paving the way for the jewish antichrist to be worshipped by all these apostates which GOD has said are “waste water from a crockery
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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
ozgeorge
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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2006, 10:30:56 AM »

This latest post is absolutely unnaceptable.
I am locking this thread to discuss this matter with the other admins and moderators.
Stephanos7, you are ranting in a vile and disgusting manner. Using a large number of "colourful" adjectives doesn't add any weight to your claims, in fact, it does the opposite.
We do not use language like that here. Nor do we slander here. Nor do we make vague, false accusations of witchcraft, peadophilia idolatry etc.

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