Author Topic: Question about Constantinople/Istanbul  (Read 1712 times)

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Offline cothrige

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Question about Constantinople/Istanbul
« on: December 06, 2006, 10:55:52 PM »
I am not sure of which forum this would belong in, and in the sense of erring on the side of caution, thought I would go with this one.  I apologize if this is not the right place.

I was watching the Pope in Turkey on EWTN, and something rather strange caught my attention.  I am aware that the Turkish authorities have been more than pretty strict concerning the Orthodox there, and gather that through attrition from harsh policies have whittled away at the population there.  I recall having read that the Patriarch must be Turkish born and a citizen, and that they cannot build churches or really expand.  I also recall hearing somewhere, probably on TV, that there are no seminaries or the like.  With this in mind I was not surprised to see that the Church of St. George (should that be Cathedral of St. George?) was quite tiny.  All of the area for the Orthodox there seemed ridiculously cramped actually.

However, a couple of nights later I saw the Pope celebrating Mass in the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit and was struck at how large and rich it seemed.  I mean, wow, it was really quite nice.  Surely there are not more Latins in that area than there are Orthodox?  How do they manage to have this kind of church when the Orthodox are having their liturgies in what appears to be a converted chapel?  I wondered how the government there treats the Roman Catholic Church compared to their dealings with the Orthodox?  Do they suffer the same restrictions, and if so why are they doing so much better, seemingly, than the Orthodox?  It really was striking to see the differences, and I immediately wondered how it was possible.

Patrick

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Question about Constantinople/Istanbul
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2006, 11:41:38 PM »
actually, the Church isn't that small, it just appears so because of the way the chairs are laid out.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Question about Constantinople/Istanbul
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2006, 11:59:44 PM »
I was shocked to learn that there are many more Catholics (35,000) in Turkey than Orthodox (around 2,000). I had always assumed otherwise.

I think Christians of all stripes have suffered in Turkey (ask the Armenians!). Perhaps there are so few Greeks left because just across the Aegean Sea and the Sea of Marmara is a country (Greece) where Orthodoxy is the official church, where the state pays the salaries of the clergy and maintains its buildings. It's a heck of a lot easier of an environment just across the sea. But then, there are still more Armenian non-Chalcedonians in Turkey than Catholics, though Armenia is on the eastern border of Turkey. Perhaps that's because Armenia is poorer than Turkey and MUCH poorer than EU-member Greece.

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Question about Constantinople/Istanbul
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2006, 12:05:00 AM »
The Turks have pursued a deliberate policy of strangulation of the Orthodox Church in Turkey.  Make no mistake about it.
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Question about Constantinople/Istanbul
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2006, 03:18:43 AM »
This will hopefully answer all your questions:


Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul (Istanbul)
Istanbul (Istanbul)

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks


Peace.
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Offline cothrige

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Re: Question about Constantinople/Istanbul
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2006, 02:47:01 PM »
Wow, Lubeltri, that is shocking!  I really would never have guessed that.  I naturally assumed it would be the other way around.  But, it still leaves open the question, do the Turks tolerate the Catholics in a way they don't the Orthodox?  And if so, why?  I can't imagine that there could be that many Catholics, with a Cathedral of that richness, living under restrictions similar to what besets the Orthodox there.  And if the Catholics are not held under the same restrictions why are we not hearing more about that?  After all, that is historic Orthodox territory and not Latin.

Patrick

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Question about Constantinople/Istanbul
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2006, 04:09:03 PM »
This will hopefully answer all your questions:


Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul (Istanbul)
Istanbul (Istanbul)

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks


Peace.

Even when you're trying to be funny you can't pull it off.  You haven't answered his question with your quoting TMBG (who, coincidentally sang a song in Greek once).  I don't even think it's funny (I like the song, but this use is pretty juvenile).  Maybe you could return to Earth and dialogue with the rest of us!  Since you haven't been to Constantinople, it's pretty ignorant of you to comment through the use of this particular song.

If you must know it hasn't been such a long time since the city was Constantinople, and there are parts of the city I will still refer to as such; namely the parts that the Orthodox folk are in control of.  I don't associate them as being part of Istanbul because they contained qualities I didn't see much in the rest of the city: pride in the appearance of their places; care for the environment; beautiful gardens; kind, warm, and simple hospitality; non-agression to the Turks; resiliancy.  I could go on.

When the Rum (Romans = Orthodox/Greek Tradition) were in control of the city (Pre-1453, and even afterwards when they were the affluent) the city was a center of culture, learning, etc.  Even into the 20th century it was the best city to find the real "Roman" spirit.  It was really the "Young Turks" and the revolution with Ataturk that killed the rich culture that the City had - a culture which we, the Orthodox, were mostly responsible for.

Leave your half-witted jokes aside when dealing with a city that exudes true Christian bravery and martyrdom.  When we call him the Patriarch of Constantinople, we are saying that he is the shepherd of a flock which is brave, faithful, pious, strong, and witnessing Christ to those around them - to their own detriment.
How in Mor's good name
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Selam